What are the differences between Northern and Southern?

[sungzu]

I'm new to the style and would like to know what are the differences between northern and southern fighting style.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Nothern kungfu was developed by people in the military and saw ample combat usage with or without weapons. Southern Kung fu was developed by farmers and trades people or were derived from introductory routines in Northern Kung Fu. Needless to say, Northern Kung Fu is the better of the two.

[Hideous]

Ego_Extrodinaire - Nothern kungfu was developed by people in the military and saw ample combat usage with or without weapons.

Although I have never heard of “NOTHERN” kungfu it sounds most interesting.

Ego_Extrodinaire - Southern Kung fu was developed by farmers and trades people …

Being totally ignorant of historical facts concerning the outcome of combat involving irregular troops versus conventional forces is really inexcusable, even though you do live in New Jersey. Perhaps a brief review of the American Revolution would serve as a reasonable starting point given your obviously diminutive intellect.

Ego_Extrodinaire - … or were derived from introductory routines in Northern Kung Fu.

A statement that is totally false on its face. Prior to the formal codification of any system, a system exists as a series of inter related parts with the whole being known only to the adherents of the system proper. Even someone from New Jersey should be capable of grasping the significance of this fact. Really now, your excuse of being from New Jersey is getting played a bit thin, would you not agree my friend?

Ego_Extrodinaire - Needless to say, Northern Kung Fu is the better of the two.

The only element that is needless in your post is the post itself. Given that this is a Southern Forum, your clearly stated, and equally defective, reasoning leads to the only possible conclusion that you are a troll, of no experience, no skill, and possess very little personal worth, or value, in any sense of the word. Perhaps a retreat into your martial arts comic book collection would be in order as it is Summer time and I am certain camp takes up most of your usual play time. There are Summer Camps for the children in New Jersey, aren’t there?













Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[NorthernMantis]

Hideous don't pay attention to ego. Our dear friend came into a southern school a while back and basically after disprespecting the class got schooled by some southern folks and had a grudge ever since. Pity him. Such an example of martial virtue.:rolleyes:

[Hideous]

NorthernMantis – Hideous don't pay attention to ego.

Ah, but he craves attention as “It is better to be despised than ignored.” and I really do not want to cause him any harm. He seems so painfully fragile.

NorthernMantis - Our dear friend came into a southern school a while back and basically after disprespecting the class got schooled by some southern folks and had a grudge ever since.

Well then, kudos all around are certainly in order. Kudos to Ego for having the courage of his convictions, even if they were shown to be ill founded. Kudos also for those who provided him with proof of the falsity of his beliefs without resorting to beating him to death, or causing him permanent injury.

NorthernMantis - Pity him.

I do believe your advice is sagacious my friend. It is a great pity indeed when a person resorts to grudges and either demonizes or glorifies a system when really it all resolves down to the man in the moment.

NorthernMantis - Such an example of martial virtue.

Over time, I have found that it is possible to learn from those providing a perfect example of what not to do, or what not to be, as it is to learn from a perfectly correct example of thought, word or deed. Perhaps then, we can rehabilitate Ego by holding him forth as an example of the wrong approach. Ego will be provided with the attention he craves and the intended lesson will be properly conveyed. A win – win situation I do believe it is called these days. Good fortune to you NorthernMantis on your martial art journey.



















Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[Fu-Pow]

I have heard that Northern Styles developed more for military type combat because the North was constantly being invaded by Mongol raiders.

The Southern Styles on the other hand developed more as a means of personal self-defense in the street.

I don't know how much truth there is to this argument however. It's often used as a justification to bad mouth Southern arts as being less effective.

But historically it seems to make sense.

As far as physical differences, well it really hard to make any generalization. You'll often here the term "Southern Hands and Northern Legs" but this statement is very misleading as there are Southern and Northern arts violate this.

[Hideous]

Fu-Pow - I have heard that Northern Styles developed more for military type combat because the North was constantly being invaded by Mongol raiders.

The Southern Styles on the other hand developed more as a means of personal self-defense in the street.

For the sake of discussion let us accept your stated understanding as the fact of the matter. Given the time frames generally attributed to the development of most TCMA systems what do we know? We know that what was considered a military type combative encounter in times past qualifies as a street encounter in today’s world. Even at that, bows & arrows, spears, swords & knives, would hardly cut it in some US cities. In a very real sense what once was military combat is now no more than young thugs in action before obtaining their first firearm, agreed?

As for styles being created with the emphasis on street combat, what has changed? The introduction of firearms most certainly, and beyond that?

I suppose that taken as a whole the streets of today is still the street, or Southern concern, with the exception of being more lethal and perhaps reaching or superseding the lethality of yesterday’s military battle field. Looks like either North or South fits the needs of the environment.

However Fu-Pow, I do not really believe you are necessarily advocating for any system or set of systems. I think you are firmly in the camp of it all coming down to the individual regardless of method.















Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[Fu-Pow]

Hmmm...interesting perspective and some good points.

Another thing to look at is the weapons favored by northern and southern styles.

For example, the trademark weapon of southern styles are the butterfly knives, you don't ever see these in Northern Systems. These are essentially close combat weapons ideal for fighting in alleyways or inside. Now try to do the same thing with double broadswords. It just doesn't work as well.

You'll also notice that Southern Styles generally have shorter more compacted hand movements (I'm thinking specifically of Hung Ga or Southern Mantis or Southern White Crane) These are ideal for fighting a confined space like an alley way or small room.

Again this is a generalization and I'm not really advocating either way.

[CLFNole]

Fu Pow:

Your post regarding the butterfly knives is well noted, however that being said how would you explain the staff differences.

Northern staffs are typically in the 6' range more or less while the traditional single-head southern staff can reach up to 9'.

Just something to think about. Why such long staffs in the south (for all concerned please keep the remarks to kung fu and no physical prowess references).

Peace.

[Fu-Pow]

Ahhh....good question....and I believe I have an answer. Think about boats. The traditional skiffs and boats that people use along the river uses a very long stick (identical to the rat tail staff thick on one end, thin on the other) to push themselves along the river. You typically don't see these kinds of boats (or sticks) in the north. Just a guess.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Southern styles using long poles never seemed that much of a good generalization to me...agreed, you have the dragon pole in many southern styles (wing chun for example), but you also have styles in which the pole is actually shorter to what is often found in northern styles...for example, in my southern white crane we use staff that don't go higher than your eyebrows: they are, however, really thick and quite heavy. I think the question doesn't even qualify: you can't really fight in a confined environment with a staff, whether it reaches your eyebrows or is 9 feet long. The staff is just not made for confined environment whatever its lenght, because to be efficient with a staff you need room to operate: the tip of the staff is dangerous, not the central part. We have a white crane sequence training someone barehanded against someone wielding a staff, and during all the sequence of all the barehanded guy's duty can be summed up in two concepts: avoid the extremities, and block any staff movement by staying close enough to the wielder to be able to stop it from the midsection.

However, your idea about the long poles coming from the ones used to maneouver (sp?) boats (it's still done this way in some parts of China) is a very seducive one

[Hideous]

Fu-Pow: Another thing to look at is the weapons favored by northern and southern styles.

Historical speculation and examination certainly are interesting pass times. Those who wish to engage in this type of activity should be free to do so. For my part, such things are of little to no interest. Art is alive. Therefore, it must speak to each succeeding generation in a voice that is recognized by said generation. Otherwise, art ceases to live and degrades to hardly more than a minor comment about some aspect of the past.

Long is not too long, and short is not too short.

























Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous

[Fu-Pow]

Hideous-

Sometimes its hard to get the "feeling" of what people are saying on the internet. Pardon me, but you sound a bit condescending and above us all. Should I add you to my Ignore List or do you have something factual to contribute?

[Hideous]

Fu-Pow: Sometimes its hard to get the "feeling" of what people are saying on the internet.

Agreed, the written word is a very difficult medium to communicate in. The lack of subtle nuances alone causes much misinterpretation or misunderstanding.

Fu-Pow: Pardon me, but you sound a bit condescending and above us all.

I give you my pardon Fu-Pow. You [hear] condescending and you [hear] the tone of being above [you all] because you, in fact, own it. Otherwise, you would not misinterpret my words through your intellectual filter as such.

Fu-Pow: Should I add you to my Ignore List …

I have a better idea Fu-Pow, I have added you to mine.

Fu-Pow: … or do you have something factual to contribute?

For you, I have nothing, see above.












Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[TenTigers]

According to 'oral' history of Southern Siu-Lum, when the Northern Temple was raized, the loyalists fled South and revamped and refined what they knew inorder to combat the Chings. Southern systems are more noted for their various gings, close infighting, and aggesiveness. I am not saying there aren't refined Northern styles,quite the contrary. Bagua,Hsing-Yi,Ba-Ji, etc are quite refined in both tactics and faht ging. Although Southern Gung-Fu was taught TO laymen in order to fight the Ching, it was not developed BY them. In fact, when you study both, you will realize that they have more in common then one might think. It;s not about style, it's about attributes. Since the Siu-Lum Temple was a melting pot, there are many commonalities in both North and South. What separates styles is not so much level of technique, but personal preference. To make a blanket statement only means that you haven't been exposed to enough qualified practitioners. There are alot of "Sifus" out there teaching 'bad Karate with kewl claws' under the moniker, kung-Fu. Caveat emptor.

[Hideous]

TenTigers - According to 'oral' history of Southern Siu-Lum, when the Northern Temple was raized, the loyalists fled South and revamped and refined what they knew inorder to combat the Chings.

And just whose oral history would that be Ten Tigers, an objective, disinterested, impartial 3rd party of one of the Northern brood?

TenTigers - Although Southern Gung-Fu was taught TO laymen in order to fight the Ching, it was not developed BY them.

According to your reasoning, prior to the introduction of Buddhism into China proper Southern Gung fu did not exist. This is tantamount to a declaration that prior to approximately 560 AD there was no organized, refined, systemic method of combat in the Southern portions of China. Do you stand by this understanding or have I mistaken your position all together?

TenTigers - In fact, when you study both, you will realize that they have more in common then one might think.

I disagree. Southern styles do not typically employ a floating root. As the root formation is the foundation for the vast majority of power production methods this difference alone puts a wide gulf between the respective systems.

TenTigers - It;s not about style, it's about attributes.

I am not at all sure what you mean by attributes. Please define and or explain your use of this term.

TenTigers - Since the Siu-Lum Temple was a melting pot, there are many commonalities in both North and South.

Actually, Shaolin constituted a minority and much more recent melting pot as you term it. There are a fairly wide array of methods that underwent refinement in the Shaolin Temples, according to some. According to the first documented Shaolin Monk in America, who has been here for several decades, there was very little martial about the temples as a whole. Since he is in fact a Shaolin Monk not of the Communist China manufactured variety, an accomplished martial artist in his own right, I do believe there is some merit in his position.
The Taoist Temples are something else all together and far, far older institutions than anything associated with Buddhism.

TenTigers - What separates styles is not so much level of technique, but personal preference.

I disagree. The differences are very real, subject to empirical evidence based validation, and personal preference has nothing to do with the principles inherent in a given hand. Expression of the hand is another thing all together.

TenTigers - To make a blanket statement only means that you haven't been exposed to enough qualified practitioners.

And you have just made yet another in a long series of blanket statements. How do you reconcile your stated position with the fact that you violate your own tenet?

TenTigers - There are alot of "Sifus" out there teaching 'bad Karate with kewl claws' under the moniker, kung-Fu. Caveat emptor.

Agreed Ten Tigers and your caveat emptor should be burned into the mind of every prospective student.











Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[NorthernMantis]

WHat is the difference between northern and southern kugnfu? Maybe I can help a little.

This is from my experince in what I have seen.

Note: There are some execptions to both northern and southern.

Northern styles tend to have quick and mobile footwork that moves all around the place while southern styles tend to be more rooted and stable.

Example:

(Northern) If you have seen northern mantis forms like 7 star mantis you would see a lot of hopping and stomping plus lot of moving foward. The forms take up alot of space.

(Southern) If you have seen wing chun or hung gar you will see that they generally don't move much relying more on a solid base than dodgy footwork. Heck some don't even move at all. My friend showed me siu lim tau and you could practically do that form in the kicthen.

Not all but alot of northern styles rely on or have alot more kicks and elongated movements and are also known as longfists styles (with choy lay fut as one of those exceptions). I have noted that some southern styles are more compact and rely more on fists including a solid base rather than kicks.

Example:

(Northern) Tam Tui,tan tuy (another style with similar spelling but has the same Chinese characters), basically any Muslim Chinese style, northern shaolin (which incorporated Muslim Chinese kicking methods like tan tuy), northern eagle claw, lo han, etc

(Southern) Win chun, southern mantis, bak mei, etc.


Another thing that I've noticed with northern and southern forms is that northern forms generally have to land in the same spot where they began.


The reason for the differences? Geography. In north China the ground is more rocky with a dryer terrain. Allowing for easier movement. Thus enabling the person abilty to move and kick with a better degree of balane.


In southern China the ground is more moist and muddy. It rains a lot and it's marshy. The climate is warmer. Since the ground is softer it would be more dangerous for someone to kick with out falling or move around much at all. Thus I can see where there is a need for a more solid base.

I met a wing chun instructor who went to the southern part of China before and discussed the differences between northern and southern styles with me. It was pretty funny because he joked by saying that there's alot of marsh with high grass in the south and if I thought that he would jump around like in mantis with all that grass I was crazy because a snake could jump out and bite him.:D

Well it's not much but I hope I contributed something.

[Fu-Pow]

Good post Northern Mantis. I think sometimes that people fail to realize the context in which their art developed. Some of it is cultural but obviously it can be geographical as well.

[NorthernMantis]

No prob FP.

I was also told that northern Chinese tend to be taller and slimmer, a definite advantage if your a long fist stylist.

[fa_jing]

It is true that some development in the Southern Styles occured in conjunction with anti-Qing rebel movements.

-FJ

[Fu-Pow]

Yes I think that is true. CLF was supposedly developed for just such a purpose. There was also something called the Hung Moon Triad who was anti-ching. Don't know much more about it than that.

[TenTigers]

"And just whose oral history would that be Ten Tigers, an objective, disinterested, impartial 3rd party of one of the Northern brood?" -point well taken, I suppose that's why they don't celebrate July 4th in England.
"Do you stand by this understanding or have I mistaken your position all together?" Mistaken-when I said developed, I meant further developed, rather than "created", of course Martial Arts existed before Buddhism and Shaolin. According to some sources, the contribution Da Mo made was not bringing Martial Arts to Shaolin, but the combining of Hei Gung with Gung-Fu, thus bringing it up to a higher level. Agree? Dissagree?
" I am not at all sure what you mean by attributes. Please define and or explain your use of this term." Attributes in terms of martial arts are properties or characteristic techniques, or skills.- meaning that many arts, both Northern and Southern, place emphasis on ging, sticking/sensitivity,rooting,skeletal alignment/structure, infighting, etc. In most cases, a style doesn't OWN a particular technique, although it still might a trademark of that system, many other systems utilise the same technique.
-There are exceptions to every rule,and I suppose every blanket statement. I have a rock on my desk that has etched into it the phrase,"nothing is etched in stone"

[Hideous]

TenTigers - point well taken, I suppose that's why they don't celebrate July 4th in England.

A wonderfully season appropriate analogy. I apologize to my brothers in the United Kingdom and my comment was not made in a mean spirit.

TenTigers – “Mistaken-when I said developed, I meant further developed, …

Thank you ever so kindly for correcting my defective understanding. Agreed on this point.

TenTigers - … the contribution Da Mo made was not bringing Martial Arts to Shaolin, but the combining of Hei Gung with Gung-Fu, thus bringing it up to a higher level. Agree? Dissagree?

Disagree, my friend, although your point taken in context [Shaolin] is, I believe, very much correct. Internal Alchemy associated with Taoist practices had been incorporated into various Chinese [indigenous] hands long before the arrival of Da Mo. Some nei gung methods associated with Hakka hands are so old that even the oral histories [myths] have been lost.

TenTigers - Attributes in terms of martial arts are properties or characteristic techniques, or skills.- meaning that many arts, both Northern and Southern, place emphasis on ging, sticking/sensitivity,rooting,skeletal alignment/structure, infighting, etc.

Ah, yes, now I understand your point, very well stated. You argue that it is not so much in the [how] but the fact that a fair degree of commonality exists in the larger sense of the [what]. Food for thought and I bow in your direction.

And what do you make of the root itself, typically being different in Southern and Northern hands? Please be mindful that I am not in any way arguing or inferring one way is better than another, just different. Specifically, my friend, what, if anything, must be present if the hand employs a floating root? What would you say to the same question as applied to the Southern hand. For the sake of discussion let us loosen the binds of system specific definitions and speak in terms general, as commonly understood, with regard to North and South hands.

TenTigers - I have a rock on my desk that has etched into it the phrase,"nothing is etched in stone"

A most excellent stone to be sure. How is it that this stone only appears immediately after we have etched something in stone? ;)











Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[yuanfen]

(Southern) If you have seen wing chun or hung gar you will see that they generally don't move much relying more on a solid base than dodgy footwork. Heck some don't even move at all. My friend showed me siu lim tau and you could practically do that form in the kicthen.
----------------------------------------
Northern Mantis-
Given your own desginated label-northern mantis- your comments are understandable but wrong. Different forms in southern styles have different purposes. The sil lim tao is for
development of alignment and structure and balance and rooting.
Wing chun is a very mobile system for those who know something about it...stability and mobility are both important
in the art.

[NorthernMantis]

Thanks for the correction.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Northern Mantis

No! northern footwork is more stable then the south while giving better mobility.

No! Northern footwork allows one to turn tighter circles then the south while having the emphasis of moving forward as opposed to staying on the spot.

No! it rains in the North as it does in "Southern California". Your terrain example is equivalent to saying north=rocky and south=muddy.

I would refrain from calling you stupid as this may ban me from the forum.

[Hideous]

Ego_Extrodinaire - No! northern footwork is more stable then the south while giving better mobility.

A statement most odd in that mobility and stability are mutually limiting. A mountain is very stable, yet lacks appreciable mobility, would you not agree, my friend?

Ego_Extrodinaire - No! Northern footwork allows one to turn tighter circles then the south while having the emphasis of moving forward as opposed to staying on the spot

Ah, I see. How is that you so highly prize playing at being a spinning top? One cannot turn in a tight circle and transverse in a linear fashion at the same time. You have some very peculiar ideas to be sure. Do you also have very much experience and skill, my friend?

Ego_Extrodinaire - No! it rains in the North as it does in "Southern California". Your terrain example is equivalent to saying north=rocky and south=muddy.

Ah, now it is made clear. You are not a martial artist but a meteorologist. A rather shabby profession given the performance rating of most weather forecasters would you not agree, my friend?

Ego_Extrodinaire - I would refrain from calling you stupid as this may ban me from the forum. I would refrain from calling you stupid as this may ban me from the forum.

Indeed, you of all people on this thread should always refrain from ever calling anyone stupid. Why would you give another person your personal designator and cause confusion, my friend?























Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[NorthernMantis]

Hey Ego did those southern guys whoop your butt that hard to keep trolling or what?

Just because I meant mobile doesnt' mean that it is not stable. Don't compare the terrain of California with China. They're both different with different soil and different weather regions. Have you ever been to China? I was told this by people who have actually gone there.Don't forget that it is a bigger country and they get monsoons in the south[sp?].

I don't take kindly to idnirect insults. I would call you a self obsessed fool with a fragile ego and weak kung fu but that would be wrong.

I suggest you spend more time practicing than spending your time trolling 'cause I've seen your website and your stances are laughable for someone with such a big mouth. No wonder you got your butt handed to you by those gnor chor guys.

Yuan Fen-

I was comparing forms but you are right I am wrong, to a certain degree however. I wasn't trying to take away credit of mobilty of southern styles.I was comparing to the characteristics that northern styles would have lunging foward ,hopping/chain stepping, rolling, aerial type of moves kicks like butterfly kicks. Like I said before there exceptions.:cool:

[Hideous]

NP - The one with an ego so large he has adopted it as his name has a web page complete with pictures? Wonderful. Would you be so kind as to post the address so that I might personally see extra ego's structures? I do believe it will assist me in properly valuing his posts, do you not agree, my friend?






























Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[NorthernMantis]

Ego_Maximus also used to post as Goktimus_Prime , I'm sure as you can see he is really into transformers. I know Ego might Deny it but he has denied it before and there's other people on this board to bacl me up on that.

His website can be found here.

http://www.geocities.com/goktimus/Martial.html

Funny how he has 2 southern links at the bottom right? All this time he was saying how his mantis is superior and how northern styles are superior when he can't even hold a decent horse stance.

[NorthernMantis]

Check out the main web page http://www.geocities.com/goktimus/index.html

[Hideous]

Thank you ever so kindly NP. I looked carefully at the photos contained on large ego’s web page.

I do believe I have developed a sufficient level of understanding of where he is on this path to properly assign his opinions regarding martial arts the value of [ZERO].

Therefore, I will no longer respond to any of his piffle and ignorant hubbub.






















Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[CLOUD ONE]

Northern Mantis- Thanks for the link it made for some interesting insights into Max's perspective.

Where is your web page?

[HopGar]

Ok Y'all, now you've done it and awakened the guy with miserable kung fu. (just a hint - dont put these threads here - the ego will strike every single time, trust me, I've been through this)

But anyhow, getting to the question about Northern and Southern trademarks, I think in general you will find mostly shorter movements in southern styles with the exception of Choy Lay Fut and Lama Pai styles (and Lama Pai styles are from Tibet, which is a whole different terrain all together being that you are 13,000 feet up and all) and more rooted stances - like hung gars deep horse stance and punches and kicks ala wing chun. Like I said, there are some exceptions. I know that in Hop Gar we have a whole conglomerate of stuff that ranges from northern stylish kicks to southernish punching and some things that resemble Kalari.

That's my two cents, feel free to tear this to shreds if you so desire.

[Hideous]

No tearing my friend, simply questions and questions only.

HopGar - ... the question about Northern and Southern trademarks, I think in general you will find mostly shorter movements in southern styles with the exception of Choy Lay Fut and Lama Pai styles …

Would you not consider Hung Gar’s kuen of substantial length, my friend? Is not Tibet in fact Western China and not South?

HopGar - in Hop Gar we have a whole conglomerate of stuff that ranges from northern stylish kicks to southernish punching and some things that resemble Kalari.

Kalari Payatt traces far back in India’s history and existed as a whole personal transformation system centuries before being exported to China, would you not agree, my friend? What, if anything, does the influence of Kalari Payatt that you see in your hand tell you about the Hop Gar hand, my friend?



















Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[HopGar]

Before I respond I must point out that you use the word "friend" almost like how the word "Honorable" is used in Julius Caesar.

but anyhow here goes "friend:"

"Would you not consider Hung Gar’s kuen of substantial length, my friend? Is not Tibet in fact Western China and not South? "

I never said it wasn't, I pointed out the most notable exceptions which are Choy Lay Fut and Lama Pai. Tibet is in SOUTHWESTERN China, making Hop Gar in fact, a southern style, or if you want to be a jerk about it, call it a western chinese style. Doesn't matter, its usually categorized with southern styles. Southwest is still south, nice try pal.

"Kalari Payatt traces far back in India’s history and existed as a whole personal transformation system centuries before being exported to China, would you not agree, my friend? What, if anything, does the influence of Kalari Payatt that you see in your hand tell you about the Hop Gar hand, my friend? "

www.tibetankungfu.com - go here, it'll give you a little insight. Oh yeah, I know that about Kalari. Nothing new to me.

By the way, you are starting to sound quite scornful of everyone in this thread. Cool down a bit man.

[Hideous]

Hop Gar - As for sounding scornful as well as rather rude and ignorant you are echelons above me, my friend. Interesting that you regard Tibet as South - Western and only [jerks] claim West while those of you who are brilliant beyond the stars call it South, my friend. Rather judgmental and spiteful of you, would you not agree, my friend?

So wonderful must it be to know [that] about Kalari, yet, it seems odd that you could not answer the question, my friend.

No need to respond to this post as there is no sense in communicating with you. I could not possibly learn from one with such high eyebrows nor could I even consider begging you to most kindly speak down to my lowly level.

Ah yes, the rarified air breathed by those most high. I sometimes wonder about the ill effects of oxygen deprivation on the brain of those such as you.














Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[NorthernMantis]

Cloud One-

I don't have a web site since I don't have the resources or the knowledge on how to make on but I can post some pics of me doing some stances if you want.

[Liokault]

Any one else here think that Hideous is weird?

And to contribute somthing to the thread.....I always thought that the chinese in the north tended to be taller and the chinese in the south tended to be shorter and heavyer of build. Their martial arts were developed to suit the type of person useing it so that taller northen guys use more high kicks and southern guys use more solid stances and strong short punches.

Also I think that some of you are getting northern/southern and short fist/long fist mixed up.

[Hideous]

Liokault - Any one else here think that Hideous is weird?

Ah yes, yet another troll casts out a line. With such a record against other styles, [sucsess] you termed it, you must be very famous indeed. I suppose experiencing [sucsess] is a good thing although I truly do not know what it is. SUCCESS, on the other hand is something with which I am familiar. How goes the fishing my troll friend?

Liokault - And to contribute somthing to the thread.....

A wonderful recital of magazine derived knowledge repeating stereotypical generalizations and such is your contribution, my friend. In your brief martial art journey have you ever encountered a thing referred to as [Spell Check] or [SOMthing] like that, my friend?

Liokault - Also I think that some of you are getting … mixed up.

And you most certainly know about being [mixed up] do you not, my friend?















Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[Liokault]

Hideous......Spell checks are for wimps.....wimp

[Hideous]

Liokault - Hideous......Spell checks are for wimps.....wimp

You defend well the cause of functional illiteracy. Magazines, being what they are, I do suppose it is the best one could hope for in your situation. Were struck in the head many times while working towards your [sucsess] at hand play, my rather mixed up friend?





















Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[HopGar]

"Hop Gar - As for sounding scornful as well as rather rude and ignorant you are echelons above me, my friend. Interesting that you regard Tibet as South - Western and only [jerks] claim West while those of you who are brilliant beyond the stars call it South, my friend. Rather judgmental and spiteful of you, would you not agree, my friend? "

Ok, you got me on this one. I shouldn't call names and I apologize this time. Nevertheless buddy, its a southern style.

"So wonderful must it be to know [that] about Kalari, yet, it seems odd that you could not answer the question, my friend. "

I never said that I knew off hand, I only mde a point that Lama Pai contains a conglomerate of influences, one of which is Kalari. If you went to the site, you would have seen what I was talking about. Obviously you didn't becuase ther would be no issue. And just 'cause I can't place Kalari's influence quite yet, does not give you the right to be a jerk and overanalyze every word I say and claim I'm bluffing, which I am not.

"No need to respond to this post as there is no sense in communicating with you. I could not possibly learn from one with such high eyebrows nor could I even consider begging you to most kindly speak down to my lowly level. "

And I'm the haughty one!?!?!?!?!?!!?

"Ah yes, the rarified air breathed by those most high. I sometimes wonder about the ill effects of oxygen deprivation on the brain of those such as you. "

Think of your own self first....

And now I'm gonna announce Hideous as a........
TROLL!!!!! (or something really close to it)

[HopGar]

Do not call me "friend" again. You are using it in an almost condescending and sarcastic manner. I do not appreciate it, so stop.

And Liokault, I agree completely. I honestly don't know why I answered. I shoulda known a substitute for Ego would show his ugly self and take me on, even though I never gave him any ammo to use. I only made a simply pont and somehow he managed to overanalyze it.....

too strange.....

[Hideous]

Hop Gar - Ok, you got me on this one. I shouldn't call names and I apologize this time. Nevertheless buddy, its a southern style.

A reasonable position given the possibilities. No need for apologies and I bow in your direction in response to your sincere willingness to admit error.

Hop Gar - I never said that I knew off hand, …

Ah, my turn to apologize for my error.

Hop Gar - And just 'cause I can't place Kalari's influence quite yet, does not give you the right to be a jerk and overanalyze every word I say …

Perhaps this is true, I will ponder it for a time. If wrong, I certainly will apologize. Howsoever, if you are wrong than I anticipate your not resorting to name calling, yet again, my friend.

Hop Gar - … and claim I'm bluffing, which I am not.

You lost me.

Hop Gar - And I'm the haughty one!?!?!?!?!?!!?

Not haughty, ignorant, lacking any appreciable degree of skill or cumulative experience. I would guess that you have somewhere in the vicinity of 6 years of formal training, perhaps less, certainly no more.

Hop Gar - Think of your own self first....

I am on level ground, my friend, sea level to be precise.

Hop Gar - And now I'm gonna announce Hideous as a........ TROLL!!!!! (or something really close to it)

Oxygen, my friend, oxygen, breath deep and exhale full out. The brain requires oxygen to function.









Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[yuanfen]

This is not directed at "Hideous" or "Hop Gar"...
just generally to the list:
A passing note " Kalari" is the place/institution where the
art of kaalripayattu is taught.There are several versions of the art-
though closely related. It is still taught in several key kalari-s
in South India. There were lots of regional arts in India. many have withered away thanks to colonialism and other social changes.. But kalaripayat has survived as has several others
in different parts of India. I dont know what the specific connection
between Tibetan kung fu and kalaripayat could be. Tibet was forcibly absorbed into China by Mao- but its culture and arts including martial arts are quite unique. The Tibetan script has Indian influence and Tibetan vajrayana buddhism involved many monks from Bengal in its founding period. The lion- singha- is an important buddhist symbol...in India, China, Thailand etc...
the Tibetan Snow Lion dance is a thing of beauty.
While we pride ourselves on modern mobility....monks travelled long distances in India-Tibet- China connections a long time ago.
The other connection was by sea....Mahabalipuram-cam ranh bay- canton- a probable path of the bodhidharma back in the 500-s
Enough....I defer to the great dialogue that southern stylists seem to be able to cook up.

[Hideous]

Excellent post, yuan fen. You demonstrate a pronounced academic bent of nature. As for the [influence] or connection of kalaripayat and Tibetan Hop Gar I believe you do, in fact, know this thing. As your hand prizes structures I believe you are able to see this matter, however, perhaps it is of no real interest to you.

Please allow me to offer you a thought for consideration, and I will start at the middle of the equation as the first part is stated above. Authentic Tibetan Hop Gar plays like a long hand version of …



















Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[HopGar]

Hideous
You just said that Tibetan Lama is a long armed version of......

Of what? To my knowledge, Tibetan Martial arts are pretty unique and were not absorbed into chinese society until the 1800's with the rise of Wong Yin Lum and his brother. If you know something I don't please share it because unless you are referring to the fact that the punching resembles Chang Quan, I dunno what you are talking to.

[HopGar]

And also, I'm just wondering, what is your martial arts background?

and one more thing
if you know anything about Hop Gar's lineage, I'm a student of Sifu Ku Chi Wai, well was until I ran out of cash a couple months ago...

[Tao-Yin-Lee]

The ethnic Indian martial art of Kalari Payat (Kalaripayattu) - meaning 'Battleground' or 'Gymnasium' - (Kalari), 'Method' or 'Art' - (Payat), has a special significance for practitioners of the Tibetan and Chinese martial arts.There are no records that chronicle the historical origins of Kalari Payat, only narrative accounts formatted as myth and legend. Most of these credit Kalari's origins to Lord Shiva, one of the three principle Gods of the Hindu pathenon.

Shiva has many aspects, he is depicted as moral and paternal, but also under one of his other names (mahakala) as the Great God of Time, the 'Destroyer' of all things. He is the Great Yogi who dwells on Mount Kailassa in the high Himalayas, deep in the dhyana meditation that maintains the worlds very existence.
Shiva was said to have taught the Brahmin (highest Hindu caste) Parasurama the art of Kalari Payat, the art itself arising out from Shiva's war with his Father-In-Law Daksha, one of the Prajapatis or 'Lords Of Creation'. Parasurama taught his 21 disciples (all Brahmins themselves) the art of Kalari Payat, and then opened 108 Kalari (school's/gymnasiums) around the Kerala region of Southern India.

The very sparse written historical details that exist today, about Kalari Payat, date back to between the 9th and 12th centuries AD. Obviously, this is much too late for the arts origins given the teachings of Bodhidharma, and the long martial heritage of India, known to the Persian Empire (circa 6th Century BC) and the Hellenistic Empire of Alexander the Great (4th Century BC).
It is however, well within the time frame for a transmission (along with Tantric Buddhism) to Tibet, and for the period of Ah-Dat-Tor Lama, founder of the Tibetan Lion's Roar Lama martial art (Circa 1426 AD).

The connection between Indian Kalari Pyatt martial arts and Tibetan ‘Kung-Fu’ comes thru two paths:

oral tradition in Tibetan Kung-Fu and filmed recordings of Kalari forms that are near identical in structure and technique to some still practiced in Tibetan systems today (1982). Kalari has similar long-hand techniques to the Lama Pai’s and a heavy emphasis on grappling – taught initially as a dis-arming technique. Some Lama Pai branches have a similar emphasis on grappling, but, this is usually (not exclusively) attributed to Mongolian influence.

Religiously, most Kalari practitioners are Hindu, followed by Muslims and then as in the religious demographics of India the remaining faiths of the sub-continent. As in traditional Chinese arts, kalari is divided generally into Northern and Southern styles.

Kalari practice (Hindu) has many religious aspects including deities, alters, rituals. Far more so than is seen in contemporary Chinese martial arts. Kalari includes an ethnic medicine: Arurveda and a vital point striking art: Marma-Adi. There is of course the study of Yoga in its many forms including ‘internal energy’ as understood by Chinese martial artists ‘prana’.

The symbol of the Lion in Buddhism is correctly stated, and two ‘Snow Lion’s’ appear on the Tibetan National Flag. The original name for Tibetan ‘Kung-Fu’ was Si-Ji-Hao – The Lion’s Roar – referring specifically to a line from the Buddhist Sutra ‘The Lantern passing Thread’ concerning the Buddha on his birth, standing upright, pointing one finger upwards to Heaven and one downwards to Earth, then, letting out a roar like a Lion.

The origin of Tibetan Lion’s Roar Lama Kung-Fu is said to have arisen from a vision (likely whilst in a meditative state) by the Tantric (Vajrayana) Buddhist Lama ‘Ah-Dat-Tor’. As this is an oral tradition, different versions flourish. In essence there is agreement that the vision involved combat between an Ape and a Crane. The Apes indigenous to Tibet at the time of Ah-Dat-Tor (circa 1426 C.E.) where Gibbon’s (Chinese Cheung-Bei-Yuan – or long armed Ape). The origin myth of the Tibetan Nation states that their people arose from the sexual union of an Ape and an Ogress in the Yarlung Valley (fertile area of Southern Tibet). Gibbons are an important symbol in Tibet, and indeed in China they appear in much of Taoist mysticism. The species of Crane extant in Tibet and China was and is the Black Necked White Crane. All Chinese Martial Artists will be familiar of the significance of the Crane as an animal symbol.

This ‘combat’ is open to many interpretations, literal, esoteric, even political. Ah-dat-Tor has been ‘claimed’ as ethnic Chinese – which would suit Chinese conservatism, and as Tibet perhaps symbolized by it’s theriomorphic ‘father’ the Ape – is blinded in some versions of the story by the White Crane (? China). Ah-Dat-Tor as is often claimed, was supposed to have been an ethnic Chinese from Western China, Quinghai province, already skilled in Northern/Western Chinese martial arts – and possibly Mongolian wrestling. Modern Quinghai however includes territories taken by military force from Tibet by the Communist Chinese since their invasion of 1949.

It may be that Ah-Dat-Tor was Chinese, possibly not. The Tibetan Lama’s have long had special relations with Chinese ruling dynasties: the Mongolian Yuan, and the Manchurian Ching. This relationship was one of spiritual mentoring in return for military protection.

The arts that have ramified from the original Lion’s Roar Tibetan ‘Kung-Fu’ – as they are known in HK, and generally in the Western World, have come thru one lineage, one fountain head: Sing-Lung Lama (Sage Dragon) who is said to have introduced the art of Lion’s Roar to Southern China around 1860 C.E.

From him, the art spread rapidly thru China, but, gained its strongest known public representation in the South. By this time, the now diversifying art had several names: Lama, Hop-Gar, Tibetan White Crane, and it had influences in it from all over China, North, South and West, including Mongolian wrestling.

Lion’s Roar ‘Kung-Fu’ was for a time the martial arts practiced by the Ching dynasty’s Palace guards and around this many claims have arisen many possibly completely true, about the Lama’s being asked to combat Shaolin trained rebels. It is said that the Lama’s themselves would not fight with their Shaolin Buddhist brothers – directly, but, under the agreements of patronage they trained the Palace guards.

What is certain is that Sing-Lung the rightly venerated patriarch of Lion’s Roar in South China was not the only door thru which that art arrived. There are reports of separate lineages, in for example Manchuria. What else seems certain is that Lion’s Roar was present in some form in China for Centuries before Sing-Lung’s teachings gave it to the Chinese people – openly.

It is not therefore strictly accurate to refer to it as a ‘Southern’ style, merely a style populraized in the South.

It is also apparent that Lion’s Roar has always been open to new inputs and to change – in marked contradistinction to the Confucian conservatism of many ‘home grown’ Chinese arts – not all of course – but many thereof. Accordingly, although keeping its core structure and technique – still visible today in its immediate ancestor Kalari, Lion’s Roar has taken on board many different techniques and structures and its immediate progeny: Lama Kung-Fu, Hop-Gar and Tiebtan Bak-Hok (White Crane) continue to diversify to this day.

As for what remains of it in Tibet? The Tibetan Government in exile, the official agency of His Holiness the Dalai Lama, has received enquiries about returning this art to the Tibetan Nation.

Tao.

[sanjia]

Tao-Yin-Lee, can I just say "video" to you ?! :-)

Mark.

[Hideous]

HopGar - If you know something I don't please share it because …

I know what I know. Please allow me to suggest to you that martial arts are first and foremost things of [actions] in harmony with intelligent thought. I do believe your question to be put forth in earnest and it pains me to not answer you. However, please consider that at this point in your journey the information would only result in confusion, not clarity.

HopGar - And also, I'm just wondering, what is your martial arts background?

Why, SPM, of course.

HopGar - and one more thing … I'm a student of Sifu Ku Chi Wai, …

Ah yes, his hand is real but not of the supreme lineage which he typically claims publicly. Perhaps a marketing ploy on his part and no man can be faulted for what he does to provide his family with a roof over their heads and food on their table. Rather arrogant and stupid of him if he makes such claims for any other reason.

HopGar - … well was until I ran out of cash a couple months ago...

That, my friend, is very sad news indeed. The successful and necessary transmittal of a hand is a sword with two edges. The student is required to seek the teacher, which he may never find. The teacher must accept the proper student regardless of circumstances. Such a student is a gift, which many teachers never receive. The wholesale commercialization of the martial arts is a curse. Isolated and infrequent incidents of [knowledge for cash] are expected and tolerable. To deny a willing student because of insufficient financial means is despicable.




















Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[NorthernMantis]

Let me take this opurtunity to remind Cloud One that even though I may not have a web site I can put up some pics of my stances to compare it to Ego's since he asked to see.

[Tao-Yin-Lee]

Get in touch with your PO address, and I'll attend to it as promissed.

Tao.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Hideous, let me take a wild guess...Hop Gar long armed version of...Choy Lee Fut?? ;)

[Tao-Yin-Lee]

http://www.kalarippayatt.co.uk/

Kalari from Guru Paul Whitrod (UK).

Better known here for his mastery of Chow-Gar Southern Mantis.

Guru Paul is an excellent source of Kalari and is highly recommended as a consultation and learning resource.

Tao.

[Hideous]

Crimson Phoenix - Hideous, let me take a wild guess...Hop Gar long armed version of...Choy Lee Fut??

No my friend, but a very funny and wild guess to be sure with the winking eye icon a perfect end piece to be sure ;)

Tao-Yin-Lee - Better known here for his mastery of Chow-Gar Southern Mantis.

Correction TYL, Paul is better known for having mastered the dead wood, Form Fairy hand. Nothing from the IP clan is even remotely worth learning.



















Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[yuanfen]

I dont know Whitrod- just have heard the name somewhere-
but an honest injun observation- in the kalari pics- he is obviously the stiff one.

[Hideous]

Yuanfen - I dont know Whitrod- just have heard the name somewhere-but an honest injun observation- in the kalari pics- he is obviously the stiff one.

A proper observation, my friend. Now, taking into consideration that Paul has been involved with Chow Gar for many years, long before his kalari exposure, and given that Ip created a forms catalog greater than 30 empty hand sets alone, what conclusion can be reached with regard to the stiffness? Even a person of merely minimal athletic ability should present some appreciable degree of grace within their movement medium of choice given sufficient time and practice. Would you not agree, my friend? And, given Paul’s recognized stature within the Chow Gar community he has put forth the necessary effort over time, agreed? Therefore, the dead wood hand of Chow Gar is the only possible source of defective movement. Chow Gar is a SPM contaminant that should die rather than be transmitted so as not to spread the disease of a dysfunctional hand.

Honest Injun? And all this time I thought you were of Indonesian stock :)


















Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[old jong]

The only thing missing in this picture... (http://www.kalarippayatt.co.uk/26.jpg)Reader's digest! :p

[yuanfen]

Now now Old Jong tsk tsk...toilet paper is still available...
the guy on the right-leaning forward for balance- looks like he needs it. Thats an elephant head pose BTW if memory serves--- a developmental stance.

[Hideous]

After careful review of the photos in question I do believe a couple of days dosing on Metamucil along with a roll or two of Charman's would produce a more relaxed posture.





























Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[BAI HE]

It was absolutely hilarious watching you run
that lout Ego of the board. He is about as pleasant
as a colostomy bag..
I thank you for your service to the general public
here at KFO.
Keep up the good work

[HopGar]

"I know what I know. Please allow me to suggest to you that martial arts are first and foremost things of [actions] in harmony with intelligent thought. I do believe your question to be put forth in earnest and it pains me to not answer you. However, please consider that at this point in your journey the information would only result in confusion, not clarity. "

If you say so.

"HopGar - And also, I'm just wondering, what is your martial arts background? "

Why, SPM, of course.

Thank you for telling me that. I was wondering, and has nothing to with me "looking down upon you," which I am not in any way shape or form

"Ah yes, his hand is real but not of the supreme lineage which he typically claims publicly. Perhaps a marketing ploy on his part and no man can be faulted for what he does to provide his family with a roof over their heads and food on their table. Rather arrogant and stupid of him if he makes such claims for any other reason. "

Huh? What are you talking about?

"That, my friend, is very sad news indeed. The successful and necessary transmittal of a hand is a sword with two edges. The student is required to seek the teacher, which he may never find. The teacher must accept the proper student regardless of circumstances. Such a student is a gift, which many teachers never receive. The wholesale commercialization of the martial arts is a curse. Isolated and infrequent incidents of [knowledge for cash] are expected and tolerable. To deny a willing student because of insufficient financial means is despicable. "

I agree there.

Lemme put it this way Hideous becuase I think you are misunderstanding everything I say on purpose and I want it to stop now for the sake of this thread and everyone else.

1) First of all, I dunno why you are overanalyzing my comment I made 4 pages ago. I said one thing and then you went on a rampage.

2) Secondly, my sifu rents out a tiny part of a strip mall and he needs the monthly checks to keep the school going.

3) Thirdly, I was paying about 1/4 of what everyone else was because I went less and had very little $.

No hard feelings toward ya, but you need to cool it and not overanalyze.

[Hideous]

BAI HE - It was absolutely hilarious watching you run that lout Ego off the board.

Ah yes, the one with the extra large ego. A rather angry and confused fellow, would you not agree, my friend? I do believe that his thinly veiled attempt to pit Southern Brothers against Northern Brothers for his demented pleasure was a doomed endeavor from the very beginning.

















Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[yuanfen]

On kalaripayat and Tibetan Kung Fu:

FWIW I exchanged emails with an accomplished martial artist who does and teaches Tibetan kung fu and has a background in history as well. According to him- some Chinese sifus like to deny it- but in his judgement and judgement of some others kalaripayat did influence Tibetan kung fu.

joy chaudhuri

[Hideous]

Yuanfen - FWIW I exchanged emails with an accomplished martial artist who does and teaches Tibetan kung fu … in his judgement and judgement of some others kalaripayat did influence Tibetan kung fu.

I do believe both he and the others are correct, my friend. Politics, such a shameful barrier to truth. And now, Tibetan Hop Gar plays like a long hand version of … ;)





























Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[yuanfen]

Hideous- Politics- full of it. The same in the relatively recent classification of external and internal styles. I dont dwell on it. What is-is.
Going to your Hop gar is"trap". I have NOT seen live hop gar- so
i am limited to the mag/book source. Does not seem to have
short power in the postures in pics. Its been a while--I thought I saw some crane movements. What is your opinion?

[NorthernMantis]

Hey Bai He I put up the website also.

[Hideous]

yuanfen - I do believe you to be an honorable man and skilled practitioner of your chosen art, my friend. It is not a trap, rather it is a path that leads to a gulf. The gulf requires a [leap] to cross.

Check your web page E-mail later today and please do not publish it for public consumption.
























Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[BAI HE]

Kudos as well Northern.

[yuanfen]

Thanks. One knows what one knows and hopefully has been learning well enough. As you know what one sees is not necessarily what one gets. Have not received anything yet but will watch for it...
<joy@azwingchun.com>

<joyc7766@msn.com>

[Hideous]

yuanfen - It went out under the first E-mail address listed on your post. No need to reply if it is no interest to you as you surely must be a busy man indeed.




























Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[yuanfen]

Hideous- thanks- replied

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Hedious: A statement most odd in that mobility and stability are mutually limiting. A mountain is very stable, yet lacks appreciable mobility, would you not agree, my friend?

No! gyroscopes are more stble when they are spinning then stationary. How do you ride a bicycle - or do you only sit on tricycles.

By the way mountains are unstable. If you know anything about geology - which you probably don't, they occur as a result of a collision of continental plates. Erosion which eventually wears them down into rolling planes - this resultant land form is more stable.

Stability occurs as a reuslt of balancing force. Even if you're not acclerating does not mean you are not moving!

Hedious: Ah, I see. How is that you so highly prize playing at being a spinning top? One cannot turn in a tight circle and transverse in a linear fashion at the same time. You have some very peculiar ideas to be sure. Do you also have very much experience and skill, my friend?

No! If that were the case. Airplanes with spinning gyroscopes can't fly because from what you say the gyroscope can't have linear motion at the same time

Hedious: Ah, now it is made clear. You are not a martial artist but a meteorologist. A rather shabby profession given the performance rating of most weather forecasters would you not agree, my friend?

No! Martial artist and meterorologist are not mutually exclusive. Both could be bicycle riders, or pilots flying in aircraft that have gyroscopes in some part of the aircraft's equipment.

Hedious: Indeed, you of all people on this thread should always refrain from ever calling anyone stupid. Why would you give another person your personal designator and cause confusion, my friend?

If I called you stupid. it would be to your credit to a brain you might not have. You don't sound hedious more like a confused pompus hamster running on a thread mill going no where!

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

NothernMantis,

You still have a fixation over goktimus. like I said if i had a webpage i would proudly display it to put all sourthern styles to shame. but i have a life and don't maintain webpages or participate in silly cultural rituals in southern styles. I'm here to educate people on the maximus way of doing things which of course is the right way because it is the maximus way.

I see you now have an entertaining discussion with hop gar people. They seem to be a nice bunch but pitty about their crap style. There's nothing more to their style other then the Jin punch - and of course the lion dancing.

These people should do something more worthwhile with their lives.

[Hideous]

Very Large Ego - A most wonderful post, my friend. Truly, I bow in the direction of one so confused, yet still fully capable of typing a very dynamic [No!]

I believe your hamster reference to be most revealing as well, my friend. It is apparent to all that you share with Richard Gere a particular fondness for rodents and [deep] internal practices, my friend ;)

Ignore List for you as well, my friend :D








































Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[HopGar]

And I see Ego is trying to strike back............Ego, do you wait for these threads to start or something? (rhetorical question, we all know you do).....Well then, If you think the "jin punch" is so pathetic, then you tell me why it doesn't work and dont tell me anytihng about the projection b/c if you know anything about Hop Gar or Tibetan Lama you would knoe how the stanch works. And I will say that I several people who I know to be excellent fighters have said that they would have problems closing in wit those kind of pucnhes coming at them.

Have fun tearing this one to shreds, I don't care at this point b/c now I am just amused by your supidity.

[Tao-Yin-Lee]

Hop-Gar,

He is trying to hurt you and Sai-Jong Pai so as to divert attention off of him from another.

It is difficult to resist feeding the trolls.

Your lineage is very Kosher - back to Wong-Yan-Lum - undefeated in 150 bouts against all comers.

Only detractors of substance have any merit

Ego is inflated in compensation for his defeats not his victories.
His inflation is hollow.

Come and speak with friends... no trolls....

Tao.

[NorthernMantis]

I know a southern stylist that can put you to shame.

[Hideous]

Large ego is to be pitied, I do believe. In time, perhaps, he will learn the difference between genuine points of contention, and merely being difficult. His preference for the Northern hand is admirable, howsoever, his method of expression is most deplorable.


























Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[TenTigers]

Hey Hideous! C'mon, inquiring minds wanna know! Hop Ga is a long armed version of..what..what...WHAT??!!! um, Fukien White Crane? Wing Chun? WHAT??!!!

[Hideous]

Ten Tigers - Hey Hideous! C'mon, inquiring minds wanna know!

Ah yes, I thought I saw the paparazzi lurking about :)

Ten Tigers - Hop Ga is a long armed version of..what..what...WHAT??!!! um, Fukien White Crane? Wing Chun? WHAT??!!!

I never said Hop Gar [is] a long armed version of anything, my friend. What I stated was that Tibetan Hop Gar [played] like a long hand version of … In actuality, from a historical perspective, I can not offer any compelling proof that the connection based solely on physical structures is anything more than pure random occurrence, my friend. A minor point to say the least and certainly not one worth pondering beyond a moment or two.


























Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous

[TenTigers]

(sigh) Hideous, you are entertaining...but exasperating. Okay. Fine. Hop-Ga PLAYS like a long handed version of...OF..??!!-oh yeah, and while I got you on the line...what exactly is your interpetation of a 'floating root'?

[HopGar]

"He is trying to hurt you and Sai-Jong Pai so as to divert attention off of him from another. It is difficult to resist feeding the trolls. "

I know that. Sometimes, its funny just to post something and see how he reacts, and then tear him to shreds again and again. I've played this game numerous times. I you saw the thread on this sorta thing, it degenrated into a kicking matych between me and ego and few others and we basically showed his lack on any kind of knowledge. It was amusing

"Your lineage is very Kosher - back to Wong-Yan-Lum - undefeated in 150 bouts against all comers. "

Thank you for backing me up here. I dunno if Hideous believes me or not.

"Only detractors of substance have any merit Ego is inflated in compensation for his defeats not his victories. His inflation is hollow. "

I agree there.

"Come and speak with friends... no trolls.... "

You got it, no problem.

[SETANSI]

SOUNDS LIKE SOUTHER FIST HAS BRUISED YOUR EGO

IF YOU HAVE SUCH A LOW OPPINION OF SOUTHERN STYLES WHY DONT YOU STAY OUT OF THE SOUTHER KF FOURM?

YOU TALK WELL WITH YOUR HANDS COMPUTER TO COMPUTER.
IF YOU FIND YOUR SELF IN THE BAY AREA IN N. CALI YOU ARE WELCOME TO LOOK ME UP JUST LEAVE A POST HERE. I INVITE YOU TO MY SIFUS GWOON FOR A freindly(LOWER CASE) SPAR .
PS CAN WE FILM IT MY SIFU LOVES TO WATCH HIS STUDENTS SPAR. IM AM SURE WE CAN SHOW YOU SOME SOUTHERN HOSPITALITY
TOO ALL OTHERS I HAVE NOTHING BUT RESPECT FOR BUK SIL LUM JUST DONT LIKE EGO IS ALL

ANY BODY OUT THERE TRAIN WITH LILLY LUA OR HER SISTER SCHOOL IN THE EAGLE CLAW STYLE I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR WHAT YOU THINK

PEACE OUT

[Hideous]

Sui – I have cleared my mailbox, my friend. Appalling, truly appalling, my friend. To those of you who flooded my mail box with letters of [support] I say this one time and one time only: You are all jackals, standing in the shadows in hopes of gnawing on the bones of one far greater than you. You take perverse delight in a minor public rift hoping against hope that the Hakka hand will split leaving your pathetic, diluted, weak hand to compete for supremacy among the ruinous leftovers. You have the unbridled audacity to interject in a matter that is properly family. Your thinly veiled glee is nauseating. I walk this path alone and require no man to watch my back or stand shoulder to shoulder with me. I most assuredly do not desire the support or approval of you boorish hubbub whose only taste of blood came when biting into a piece of poorly cooked chicken. I will say no more of this thing and the matter is closed to me.

TenTigers - (sigh) Hideous, you are entertaining...but exasperating.

I do sincerely apologize, my friend, as it not my intention to be either.

TenTigers - Okay. Fine. Hop-Ga PLAYS like a long handed version of...OF..??!!

I do admire your tenacity, my friend, and inasmuch I do not know you, I can only conclude that you have a serious interest in this matter. Your time walking this path requires an answer. I will do so via PM with the understanding that you do not publish any part of same, my friend.

TenTigers - ...what exactly is your interpetation of a 'floating root'?

I am surprised you ask such a thing, my friend. If your profile is truthful my interpretation is of no value to you as you have most assuredly formed your own and it is 100% correct for you.




















Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous

[TenTigers]

I have just recently enabled PM's in my profile-um, still curious as to your interpetation of a floating root. Am I to understand it to be simmilar to Bot Gwa's ability to strike while stepping and momentaraly rooting? If not, then what, and if so, then how?

[HopGar]

"Sui – I have cleared my mailbox, my friend. Appalling, truly appalling, my friend. To those of you who flooded my mail box with letters of [support] I say this one time and one time only: You are all jackals, standing in the shadows in hopes of gnawing on the bones of one far greater than you. You take perverse delight in a minor public rift hoping against hope that the Hakka hand will split leaving your pathetic, diluted, weak hand to compete for supremacy among the ruinous leftovers. You have the unbridled audacity to interject in a matter that is properly family. Your thinly veiled glee is nauseating. I walk this path alone and require no man to watch my back or stand shoulder to shoulder with me. I most assuredly do not desire the support or approval of you boorish hubbub whose only taste of blood came when biting into a piece of poorly cooked chicken. I will say no more of this thing and the matter is closed to me. "

Are you talking to me? If so, first of all, its Zvi and prnounced Tzvi. Second, I dunno what the diatribe is about. If not, apologies to you.

[HopGar]

[quote]
"Sui – I have cleared my mailbox, my friend. Appalling, truly appalling, my friend. To those of you who flooded my mail box with letters of [support] I say this one time and one time only: You are all jackals, standing in the shadows in hopes of gnawing on the bones of one far greater than you. You take perverse delight in a minor public rift hoping against hope that the Hakka hand will split leaving your pathetic, diluted, weak hand to compete for supremacy among the ruinous leftovers. You have the unbridled audacity to interject in a matter that is properly family. Your thinly veiled glee is nauseating. I walk this path alone and require no man to watch my back or stand shoulder to shoulder with me. I most assuredly do not desire the support or approval of you boorish hubbub whose only taste of blood came when biting into a piece of poorly cooked chicken. I will say no more of this thing and the matter is closed to me. "
[quote]

**** you're arrogant.

[Hideous]

Hop Gar - I received no PM from you, my friend. As you are obviously incapable of not taking to heart that which neither concerns, nor applies, to you I have put you on my Ignore List as well, my friend. The only display of arrogance was on your part by assuming you were somehow being recognized and personally addressed. You are barely a beginner and rate no recognition as such. In the future, perhaps your will not allow your ego to exceed your very, very, minimal experience and equally little relative worth, my friend.











































Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous

[BAI HE]

The major differences between the Southern and
Northern styles is that The Southern styles were
created in the South and the Northern styles were
created in North.

[HopGar]

"Hop Gar - I received no PM from you, my friend. As you are obviously incapable of not taking to heart that which neither concerns, nor applies, to you I have put you on my Ignore List as well, my friend. The only display of arrogance was on your part by assuming you were somehow being recognized and personally addressed. You are barely a beginner and rate no recognition as such. In the future, perhaps your will not allow your ego to exceed your very, very, minimal experience and equally little relative worth, my friend. "

Ok sir, time for me to put something straight. I am barely a beginner in what?!!? Who the hell are you to call me a beginner in anything?

And also, I have had my name mispronounced one too many times, so forgive me for thinking that "Sui" is a mispronunciation or wrong spelling of Tzvi.

And as for being arrogant; I'm arrogant?! Look at your self, you called everyone dogs, if I'm correct, and if thats not something arrogant to say, I dunno what is.

Now look here and listen up. Your misunderstanding of one comment is what caused this misunderstanding and now I expect an apology because now you have just insulted me and I don't appreciate it. This can end right now with an apology and we can forget about it.

Believe me, I do not have an ego, I recognize plenty well what I can and can not do. If you want to start hurling insults, go somewhere else. I was simply adding something to a discussion and then you in your supposed wisdom claim that I was bul****ting or something. You do praying mantis, meaning you in all likelihood dont know jack**** about Hop Gar so don't go about acting like an all knowing master of kung fu b/c you are not. And neither am I.

Have a good day, this angry rant is over.

[Hideous]

Hop Gar - A rather idiotic rant that reveals you possessing minimal reading comprehension skills at best. There is little to no doubt that your barely baseline reading skill exceeds that of your hand, my friend.

Inasmuch you were not privy to the content of the PMs I received which subsequently flooded out my mail box you really have neither position nor grounds for forming any opinion in the matter, my friend.

Those who [cheered] the continuing rift know who they are as well as my clearly stated opinion of them. Jackals, not dogs.

Rather than my previous guess of 6 years at the most I am thinking now along the lines of your total time in Hop Gar being more like 3 years. Ah yes, the righteous indignation of youth, such folly, but folly with much gusto.

As regards your name problem, it truly is no concern of mine, my friend. Perhaps you should consider changing your forum name to [Bob] as that would suit you well, I do believe.























Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous

[HopGar]

"Hop Gar - A rather idiotic rant that reveals you possessing minimal reading comprehension skills at best. There is little to no doubt that your barely baseline reading skill exceeds that of your hand, my friend. "

Yeah, I learned to read at the age of three. think again. I was the one in my class who could interpret book before anyone else. The fact that I did not realize who you were talking to is due to the fact that my name is always mispelled. I admit I wrong thinking you were addressing me - again I refer to the consistent mispelling of my name. Sorry.

"Inasmuch you were not privy to the content of the PMs I received which subsequently flooded out my mail box you really have neither position nor grounds for forming any opinion in the matter, my friend. " Those who [cheered] the continuing rift know who they are as well as my clearly stated opinion of them. Jackals, not dogs.

Ok you're right here too. Just don't insult me again.

"Rather than my previous guess of 6 years at the most I am thinking now along the lines of your total time in Hop Gar being more like 3 years. Ah yes, the righteous indignation of youth, such folly, but folly with much gusto. "

can I ask what this has to do with anything at all?

"As regards your name problem, it truly is no concern of mine, my friend. Perhaps you should consider changing your forum name to [Bob] as that would suit you well, I do believe. "

I'm talking about my real name being mispronounced, not my forum name. You'll have to excuse me, like I said before, I'm used to having my name mispelled so it is easy for me to mistake someone else beign addressed to being myself instead.

Do you wanna end this and actually have a decent conversation or do you want to insult me some more?

[Hideous]

Hop Gar - As your opinion is that I do not know jack **** about Hop Gar and you are not of the SPM family there is really nothing to discuss, would you not agree, my friend? Whatever exchange we had in the past stays in the past and I will not address you in any manner, or fashion, from this point forward.



























Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Ho Gar: You can't talk and certainly cannot punch. In previous discussions you have not substantiate Hop Gar strategy when called upon to. Instead you go on ranting and raving like an arrogent donkey (@ass). To the point that you have upset an articulate gentleman like Hideous. I think an appology is in order or are you a 10th generation decendent of an inbreed hop gar cult whose only outlet to the real world is through the internet?

Hideous: Yes I have 2 pet hamsters, their names are Rene and Richie - both very well fed and like their hamster wheels. Ok you might not be a hamster and i stand corrected but my other observations still stand. That's the Hop Gar talk I tend to get on the net. They will sing your curses if you don't sing the praises of hop gar. But do forgive Zvak as it is but a talking parrot. It is not speaking its mind but merely repeating the words of its masters.

Setnasi: I don't practice kung fu anymore ever since I lost the use of my legs in a car accident. In my yonger days like sparring as it is a good way to meet new friends. What about you?

[anton]

Ego_Extrodinaire
06-29-2002 06:26 PM This person is on your Ignore List. To view this post click [here]

^^^The phrase that never fails to bring a smile to my face.

[HopGar]

I'm not even gonna both responding to those two anymore. Not even worth it, 'specially Ego, who obviously has no life to the point that he has to start flipping insults and intruding in on something that does not include him. Hideous as well he misunderstands everything in his typical "eloquent, gentleman style":rolleyes: . Don't expect to see me on this board for a while.

Peace Y'all

(ps - I'm leaving for Israel anyways and have no time to post)

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Hop Gar,

So for once please keep to your word. Every other time you've been back for more lessons from Ego. And please be more original and stop using my words for your come backs. For if you do, youre a hyprocrite who admires me

[BAI HE]

Nobody recieves lessons from you Ego. They in fact recieve
unwanted opinions so ignorant and bellicose they in turn
feel compelled to reply.
If you're not here to learn and have nothing to offer Kelvin,
why not say goodbye.
Your time is obviously wasted here and somewhere on EbAY
you could be hunting down rare and precious Transformer
action figures in the original packages.

This is for you Goktimus:

"He knows so little and knows it so fluently."
- Ellen Glasgow

Godspeed (off this board)
Peter.

[SSgungfu]

Did you guys say this already?

The people from Northern China seemed to have longer legs and shorter arms, then the shorter legs in the South.

In the north they also favored noodles over rice.
And the south, vice versa.

[TenTigers]

Ah-HAH!!! So it's the noodles over rice! (with or without sauce?) All this time it's been right in front of me (on my plate, no less) and I never noticed. Of course this brings up yet another topic for heated debate......

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Bai He,

The fact is Bai He you've gotto catch them all. Was that Pokemon or other types of action figures. How did action figures come into the topic anyway. Whatever it is, i'm learning alot about Goktimus or at least your version of him / her anyway.

Or is calling some one goktimus supposed to be an insult or something because other kinds of slurs be it fascist, racist etc could ban you from the board.

Did some of you take pictures of yourself as a joke and placed it on the net and say this is Goktimus so and so, give it a persona - such as collecting action figues or whatever and then attribute anyone you dislike on this forum to this persona?

If that's the reason (as I can't see any other reason for attributing me to goktimus) then I find you all very strange indeed. Perhaps you are all an inbreed southern lot or simply speak the mind of sifu through the brain washing from endless southern rituals. I feel so sorry for you all. If only you had a life and could live up to the goktimus character you so created - at least collecting action figures would be a more worth while hobby than southern kung fu.

PS Rice and noodles are good, but those from the north are better.

[BAI HE]

You were found out a long time ago.
You know it.
I know it.
Everyone knows it.

You ****.