Bak Mei Yau Kung Mun

[kei lun]

I was wondering why Yau Kung Mun denies that they are Bak Mei Kung Fu? Ha Hon Hum was one of the top students of Cheung Lai Cheun in GuangJau. In GuangJau Ha Hon Hum taught Bak Mei for a long time. There are still many lines of Bak Mei that continue from him.
http://www.aaron.net.au/pak_mei/master.html
Last year Ha Kwok Cheung came to GuangJau and he performed at the Bak Mei gathering, it seemed that it was the first time that they �gadmitted it�h. Now, I have seen the Yau Kung Mun school and their curriculum.
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm/lineage_chart.htm
All their forms are Bak Mei, the same names and the same movements. http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm/external_hand_forms.htm�@However they leave out CLC in their lineage. I have been told that its because they include internal elements, from HHH�fs other teacher monk Tit Yan, that are not found in Bak Mei so they changed the name. Well, Bak Mei is an internal system, having the softness of TaiJi and the explosiveness of Hsing Yi, and even has its own Chi Kung. The kung fu practiced in YKM is Bak Mei!
Of course they practice a touch differently from Bak Mei, but so do all schools in Bak Mei, the differences aren�ft an issue. The issue is why doesn�ft YKM, a system made up almost entirely of Bak Mei, recognize that they did infact came from Bak Mei through the teachings of CLC?


Kei Lun

[fiercest tiger]

Our grandmaster did leave CLC and created yau kung mun from the monk Tit Yun. In guangzhou his studenst still call bak mei yau kung mun and trace there lineage to clc.

Our forms in the beginning are indeed bak mei and hung gar, but our high internal sets are yau kung supp baat serng toy jeunrg, all soft slow moving meditations taught to great grandmaster har from the monk tit yun. I myself consider the bak mei as external with some internal elements, but the ykm internal is purely internal. We always say we are bak mei but most bak mei say ykm arent! In hongkong yau kung mun is ykm and has made a very good name, i know grandmaster ha does go to guangzhou to the bak mei invitations and there isnt any beef between the old masters that i know. Its the new generation that has the beef for some reason with ykm, but its all good! Yum cha's lineage traces its pak mei to great grandmaster ha but its called guangzhou bak mei, ykm has a new name and ciriculum added from the monk and g/masters hung gar/clf training in the past.

hope this helps!:)

garry

[fiercest tiger]

There has been many stories of the ykm grandmaster after leaving his sifu(clc), so i guess this also could be a reason why there is no connection of clc in the lineage charts!

just my thoughts

garry:)

[fiercest tiger]

what did grandmaster ha perform in guangzhou?

cheers
Garry FT

[Rolling Elbow]

It kicks ass all the same!

[buddhapalm]

Hi Fiercest Tiger,
Is "yau kung supp baat serng toy jeunrg" a meditation or a slow tai-chi-like set ?

Please let me know.

Cheers

Buddhapalm

[fiercest tiger]

Hi,

Well said my brother! Does it really matter what name it is, as long as its effective and has its on healing right?! :)

Buddha palm,

yes its slow like tai chi, but it isnt if it makes any sense!

later
Garry FT:)

[buddhapalm]

Hi Fiercest Tiger,
Thanks for your reply. The reason why I ask is that there is a form in my school called Dai Fut Jeung. My KF Uncle told me that our Sigung claimed it was a set from Bak Mei style and was rare. I have contacted Bak Mei people, but they do not think so. So perhaps it may be somewhat relatd to YKM.

The set is all palms, slaps, pokes, chops.

Opens :
- left hook hand, right palm forward (bow arrow stance)
- step back into cat, right hand circle block and left forward palm
- turn to right and left hand slap
- step, right hand inward slap
- step, left hand inward slap........

Does it sound at all similar ?

Cheers

Buddhapalm

[fiercest tiger]

Hi Mate,

Nah! Kinda but not quite, can you please email me privately about this info of your uncle, i will share more with you on this!

talk later
Garry FT;)

[EAZ]

In Vietnamese lineage of Pei Mei (Tsang Wai Bok and others)), their is a high level form, way after Tiger exits forest, called "Elastic power " that is performed in the way you mention that is perfored in Tai Chi like slow/fast fashion. It comes after 5 elements form. There is also another form called "Luc kinh Cam Ma" in vietnamese, or "Magical trembling power ....."

The description above sounds like another form called Long Mon Buc Da which means Oppressive bridge at the Dragon Gate. (Nothing to do with Long hinh ma kieu, the Dragon form imported into certain Bak Mei schools). That is the slaps are downward motions as you step forward.....

Hope this is of interest.

[buddhapalm]

Dear Eaz,
Your descriptions of the other forms sound interesting. Is it possible to know more about the sets that sound similar to what I describe.

The forward stepping wave hands are alternate hand slaps go up and down with each step, they are blocks I think followed by a palm to face. Lots of side slaps inwardly.

My Grandmaster/Sigung would have learned this in Toisan/Canton probably between 1915 and 1950 I would guess.

I can be reached also at teleka@pacbell.net

Cheers

Buddhapalm

[EAZ]

I knwo next to nothing about the fors "elastic power" and "trembling hand", the latter simply the final ersult of Pei Mei training with many specific exercices before.

Long Mon Buc Da, has an opening with a similar flavour as 18 frictions or Tiger exits forest, but is longer and as I said has a series of forward steping combining a pivot and a downward palm (or forearm in some versions) thrust. This is my understanding of "oppresive bridge" in the name of form. They are followed by pal to face.

So all in all sounds a bit azt least like your form.

(I just noticed that TS Tang, student of Chow Fook, has 5 elements form and Single power. Thus another school from older generation master who has these forms. On his web site it says he learned PM at age 15 in Canton from CLC, or in 1928. THis makes him not as old a student as Ho Hong Har or Tsang Wai Bac, but still old enough to know these forms which were subsequently no longer taught apparently. -once again no value judgement just an observation).

EAZ

[kei lun]

Thanks for going completely off topic guys!

Fiercest Tiger:
Thanks for your tone, I didn�ft want anyone to take it offensive. All Im saying is that YKM should always recognize CLC in their lineage. You said it your self that a big part of YKM is Bak Mei. Would it be what it is without Bak Mei??? Tit Yan didn�ft create or contribute all the Bak Mei, Lung Ying and Hung Gar forms that comprise YKM. There�fs nothing wrong with a branch of Bak Mei, its just respectful to admit where it comes from.
I believe it was Man Foo Cheut Lum that Ha Kwok Cheung performed at the gathering, but don�ft quote me on that, there were a lot of masters and performances that day.

EAZ:
In the Vietnam school there are a lot of forms. I don�ft know that much about the teachers from there but my Sifu was sent a book out of respect from one of the Vietnam Bak Mei schools on all their material. They have a few different versions of Gau Bo Toei, Cheun Fa Gau Bo Sup Saam Toei, Moh Kiu Gau Bo Toei, etc., someone went crazy on the forms there, the majority are clearly not traditional. I still have their forms list, if anyone is interested I can post it.


Kei Lun

[kei lun]

Fiercest Tiger, you mentioned that you consider the bak mei as external with some internal elements, but the ykm internal is purely internal. Well Bak Mei is an internal art, on the same (but slightly higher) internal level as Hsing Yi. Bak Mei is power from internal that manifests itself externally. The 2 forces in Bak Mei are Geng Ging (scared or shock power) and Sai Dong Ging (power of tremor?) both of these are internal forces and are applied to all movements in Bak Mei, therefore each and every form of Bak Mei is internal. This power is what Bak Mei is. You can apply this power to Hung Ga, Tai Chi, Tong Long, etc. Bak Mei is not a group of movements, or sets of forms, it is a system of power, which is purely internal, even though 90percent of the Bak Mei out there cannot do it, only verbalizes the theories.

Anyway, higher up once the internal power is better developed and understood by the practitioner, then one goes back and makes all the forms slower and softer, like TaiJi, but still exerts power the same (faat ging).

As well Bak Mei also has its own Chi Kung methods. This Chi Kung was passed to very few students of CLC, and those who learned it horded it as a treasure and only taught the lucky few students. Most who didn�ft learn it just adopted another Chi Kung method into the system and called it Bak Mei Chi Kung, so its hard to find out if the Chi Kung you learned in your school is the original or not.

Bak Mei Chi Kung is different than other Chi Kung methods in that in the beginning the Chi is trained to �gflow�h, like that in TaiJi, the standard. But later, the Chi is trained to �gpulse�h, which makes it martial, an internal element unique to Bak Mei. When you look at Hung Gar the force is strong and consistent, in Choy Lee Fut it is flowing and again consistant (like momentum carrying the movements), TaiJi smooth and continuous, and so on. But in the Hakka styles, i.e. Bak Mei, Lung Ying, Lam Tong Long, etc., they tend to be very choppy, which is why they don�ft usually do that well at forms competitions! If people in these styles do flow through a form, fast as lightning, non-stop stepping and striking, then there is no internal elements involved. The internal element in Bak Mei does not flow, it pulses. Purely internal eh!

Kei Lun
- yau ying da ying, mo ying da ying -

[Ao Qin]

Kei Lun - awesome insight and extrapolation! Well said indeed! The feeling one gets from practicing Bak Mei is very difficult to describe in words - certainly, "alive", and "powerful" spring to mind. You come to be aware of the little movements, and the little muscles that are not commonly used, in everyday life. I guess that applies to every art though, if practiced with enthusiasm and diligence!

I've always thought of Bak Mei as more of a method of internal power generation - that's the beauty and mystery of it. The forms (aside from JB and GBT), seem less important than the breathing, and various methods - almost like a "martial chi-gung" style. However, I do think the movements have to fit the method to some extent (i.e., would be difficult to incorporate into longer-arm systems).

Cheers!

[Hideous]

kei lun - Thanks for going completely off topic guys!

Ah yes, the honey pot stirrer is angered by his failed attempt to cause discord and strife among his most recently selected target. For shame I say, that the plans of kei lun, martial arts Master supreme have been thwarted by those he desired to annoy. Careful my friends, the great kei lun will most assuredly reach deep into his mystical bag of magazines, comic books and videos to select and unleash a devastating revenge.

kei lun - All Im saying is that YKM should always recognize CLC in their lineage.

Since the great kei lun, expert on many matters martial has degreed that it should be so it behooves all whom fall within earshot of kei lun to immediately comply with his demand. I trust FT will quickly make the necessary changes in his Pai’s lineage charts so as to not rile the great kei lun and risk earning his mighty and righteous wrath.

kei lun - … someone went crazy on the forms there, the majority are clearly not traditional

Ah yes EAZ, yet again the great kei lun, expert on matters pertaining to CLF, SPM, western boxing, and now YKM and Bak Mei, pontificates from on high. I bow in the direction of one so learned, so obviously high eyebrow that all should grovel in appreciation for his lowering of self to address we puny mortals who struggle on, seeking expertise in merely one hand.

kei lun - … my Sifu was sent a book out of respect …

A first rate display of Sun Dar powers as kei lun’s martial arts comic book collection was incredibly brought to life and sent out a book under its own volition. Bravo kei lun, bravo. I wait in eager anticipation of what your video collection will do at your bidding.











Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous

[fiercest tiger]

YKM wont change there name to Pak Mei and will never use CLC in the ykm lineage, unless the grandmaster (alive) says so! But i doubt that as ykm has represented for 80 yrs without using CLC name or the mention of Pak Mei. I like to mention that YKM does hold roots to Pak Mei as a foundation and people ask me what does ykm resemble i say Pak Mei and Dragon! Although i have Pak Mei forms i have learnt i will teach it in YKM in the future or i may hold a seperate class for Pak mei Kung Fu.

In Guangzhou some of Great Grandmasters ha's students call it pak mei and some use CLC in the lineage. YKM is in the hands of Grandmaster Ha Kwok Cheung the son of G/GMATER Ha Hon Hung and he has built ykm into a formiable martial art as it is today and Lion and Dragon Dancing is one of the best perfomances in the world today.

I use to argue with YUM CHA he was a YKM student under my sifu in the old days too, about YKM is the same as Pak Mei. But i now realise that we share the same recipe and forms but we do things different to his school and our training methods get us to different levels,powers etc. Our power generated is different! I like to say the way my YKM school produces the ging is a springy type not a whipping type. So yum cha my brother if your reading sorry for all the arguing in the past!:D


cya's
FT:)

[fiercest tiger]

I didnt read your post on page one before posting my last post, so i'll put my thoughts on your theories.

:)


Fast Forms with power and muscle tension at the end, during, or before, is still external to me. To close a fist you must use muscle. To draw the elbows in and round the back you must again use muscle, so there is tension. I'm just trying to split the external to internal training in Yau Kung Mun. Our beginning forms have a Hung Gar influence but also contain the Bak Mei principles. These forms have a snappy springing type of force. As we get higher in the Bak Mei forms like Gau Bo Tui, Sup Batt Mor, Meng Fu Chut Lum, all these forms use Yau Kung, soft and hard power. So now you could say these forms are more internal, if you get what I am saying.

Ging is ging, power manifested from the body by leading the mind, chi, and heart. So this way it has gone from internal to external. Geng Jak Ging and Faat Ging are explosive like a shock. I have yet to see this tremor ging to understand what you are talking about, as I have not seen one bak mei teacher do this type of ging you are talking about. I have seen one man do nine step with a very rigid stance but he had a springy elastic power in the arms, so that is the elastic power that EAZ must be talking about.

Tiat Yun is the monk who passed the true Yau Kung Mun (internal chi gung forms) to Har Hon Hung. Har Hon Hung then absorbed Bak Mei and his years of training in Hung Gar into the syllabus for foundation and understanding hard and soft powers, as well as training the body for our higher levels. Some people like to go from soft to hard, I myself like to go from hard to soft training.

Anyways, I have much respect for Bak Mei and I try to promote Bak Mei the best I can. At the end of the day you get to your level of training and I get to my level of training so it's all good. As I have said many times, I bleieve that ging is better felt than seen, many people are fast and snappy but can't time or penetrate a punch so therefore this type of ging is useless without timing. As long as I have enough power to hurt someone if I need to and I am confident that I can use my kung fu, thats all that really matters. Nothing beats the ging of a gun.

Anyway, I hope this clears up my break down of internal and external of the forms trained in Yau Kung Mun. Bak Mei forms maybe to you are all internal, and I do understand what you are saying, but it doesn't all seem true to me.

Take Care,

FT Garry :D

[EAZ]

Very interesting thoughts on PM thank you. Kei lun your first paragraph is particularly interesting in that you say PM is system of power rather then forms. This is coherant with what I have been taught. However methodology to reacht the end goal appear quite disparate from school to school.

Kei Lun, before making what appears to me a hasty judgement on forms on Pei Mei in Vietnam please be aware that all forms practiced (bar one) can be traced to Tsang Wai Bac, ie; circa 1932. You may think he invented them. However, all forms practiced in Vietnam (bar 2) are practiced elsewhere, however the reverse is not the case. An easy example is something like Singular power, practiced by Chow Fook lineage but not elsewhere. Or Dia Sach, fighting on the ground: practiced in some schools and not others, or 5 elements etc....

I would also add that their are other branches of PM than CLC. I know of only one pesonally, in Vietnam, brought by a monk who interestingly enough tought essentailly power generation technics more than forms. I am sure there are others.

[Ao Qin]

Hi Fierce Tiger,

You mentioned that YKM has a Hung Gar influence in the beginning forms. I have a VCD of a version of (Canton) Gau Bo Toy, with a guy in red pants and black shirt on the cover. Some of the stance work and technique resemble Hung Gar more than Bak Mei. The bow starts off as Bak Mei, then he raises his right index finger in the Hung Gar iron finger salute.

Is this actually YKM? Anyone else seen this VCD?

Thanks - Ao Qin

[Buby]

I think sifu was referring to the first three forms that are played in YKM. Which are Tung Jee, Sup Jee, and Ying Ching. From what I've seen, there is no raising the index figure (like in hung) in any of our forms.

Take care,
Buby

[fiercest tiger]

Hi,

Nope thats not ykm, i have this vcd too! I was pretty suprised at the quality of the demo, but it is china pak mei or guangzhou somewhere in china. I have seen the 1 finger salute off a few pak mei schools, i dont think its the hung connection or it maybe the shaolin connection or i have been told its an arogant way to say they are number one!;) The stances were longer and wushuish as well. It was a mixture of 9 step push, 5 animals, ying jow lin quil, and a little sup batt mor mix together.

I have the dragon vcd and thats alot better!:)

Ykm has the hung gar in levels 1,2,3 like buby said to give us a external power and focus, plus good rooting skills. Dynalmic tension and iron body training is our 3rd level ying ching, and developes short power, and dip gwut rib power.

hope that helps.


take care
Garry FT

:)

[mantis108]

That form on the VCD is more like Ying Jow Lim Kiu than Gao Bo Tyui coupled with other forms. They also didn't use the conventional "5 lakes 4 oceans" salute instead they use what they label as "one stick of incent towards the sky" as salute which might be a Wushu tourament adaptation. There is a heavy WuShu feel to this form (whatever that is). Fancy high kicks (that is but one low side kick and another low back kick in 9 step push) with over extended movements are Wushu favorite not real Kung Fu. The performance in the VCD didn't give the impression that Bak Mei is a system of power rather it protrayed Bak Mei as a system of form that has over extraggerated structural problem. Personally, I don't find it a good representation on what Bak Mei is. IMHO, there is a serious breach of style integrity in this form.

Regards

Mantis108

[fiercest tiger]

The fighting applications were twice as bad!:( What did you think of the power?

cheers
garry

[Yum Cha]

It was interesting, but it looked like a performance piece. I'll agree with Mantis and FT.

One thing I noted, was that either by design or by omission, there were a number of techniques "glossed over" or "hidden" in the execution.

It did remind me of Ying Jao Lin Que in spirit though, but there were bits of Gau Bo Twi, Ng Ying, etc popped in. Oh yea, and a bit of Tae Kwon Do...;)

Kei Lun,
You demonstrate some insight into Pak Mei, may I ask where it comes from?

EAZ,
My experience is that the Vietnamese branch is very rich. I'm sure you'll agree. Something like 5 generations in Vietnam already?

The Gings:

I wonder, perhaps the discussion of Tremor Ging and Elastic Ging would be served by going back to the original chinese and examining the translation of the term? Perhaps that may introduce some more clues?

Sifu says the tendons in your arms and shoulders should stretch, snap out and back. This is an elastic effect, and it takes time to train. Could this fit into the formulae?

I've heard tremor ging is like a spasm of attacks, 2,3,4,5 or watever consecutive attacks from the same "issuance" can we say? Perhaps it starts with Mam Fu? I don't understand totally... Too fancy for a "Kau La, Sak Choi" donkey like me. :D

[fiercest tiger]

Totally agree, for the strikes the tendons and sinews have to be elastic or springy , they stretch out and spring back. Well this is what ive been told but i think most people try too hard with the hum hung baat boy and over extend and not looking at the shoulder rotations for power as well just leaning forwards.

does that make any sense? lol:)

[mantis108]

Hi FT,

I think your comment on his performance is fair. With his footwork and waist (or lack there of) , there are only the arms left. Note that he tends to "push" his strikes out with arm strength only. That to me indicates a problem of rooting. You are also right about elasticity of the tendons and sinews. IMHO the way that he has developed is only suitable for a striking style not a well rounded style. That means he has limited tools available to him. Note the extremely lacking of Chin Na techniques in his applications. [But then he might be saving them] ;). I know someone is going to argue that Bak Mei is a striking style - no more no less but I bag to differ. I believe Bak Mei is a system of power that has a unique delivery protocol which is capable of Da, Ti, Na, and Shuai. The VCD would have been a great venue to showcase what Bak Mei is truely capable of but it falls way short on the delivery. :( Perhaps they were really preoccupied with a performing art rather than a fighting art.

Regards

Mantis108

PS You are also right about the Lung Ying VCD is better in every way.

[EAZ]

Originally posted by Yum Cha
EAZ,
My experience is that the Vietnamese branch is very rich. I'm sure you'll agree. Something like 5 generations in Vietnam already?


All I am saying is that their is evidence for the existence of all forms practiced in Tang Hue Bac lineage that goes back to the early years of Tang Hue Bac. The relatively larger number of forms is NOT due to additions after him (bar one or two exceptions that are well documented).

Furthermore, there have been as I said at least one other branch of Pm in Vietnam completely independent of CLC lineage that comes froma monk who apparently passed away in 1985 at a rather ripe age.

Regarding "one finger salute", my sifu told me last night that this salute used to belong to highest level forms only after Mang Fu but in Guangdong some people democratised it for lower level forms. He also said that it indeed means something like we are n°1 :-) Already as you all know beginning saute have knees bent and 3 direction salute and later forms salute is done standing and slowly with only eyes looking to right and left. So I suppose one finger version came after this. Since few people even practice these higher level forms, that is why it has fallen out of current PM practices.

[fiercest tiger]

Thats what i said about the one finger salute! :)

[kei lun]

Fiercest Tiger:
Well I have to say you have given a more hospitable response than I thought, thank you. I must say it is a shame though, I would think to be under CLC would be something to be quite proud of. Actually, in the GuangJau Bak Mei group, we most all concider HHH to be the top student of CLC. But you are right in saying that ultimately the decision is in the hands of Ha Kwok Cheung.
As for you have never seen the power I spoke of, well, its not because Bak Mei doesn�ft have it, its just because so few can do it. But actually I have always been impressed by YKM and enjoyed what they do, I find it closer to GuangJau Bak Mei than HK Bak Mei.

EAZ:
I didn�ft mean to make a judgement on the Vietnam school, I don�ft know enough about them to do so. But your right, all schools have different curriculums. The HK school under Cheung Bing Lum lists on their site all the forms of Bak Mei. My line�fs curriculum is a bit different than theirs still. Who knows eh.
But just for my information, who brought Bak Mei to Vietnam? Was it just one guy?

Ao Qin:

The VCD of Gau Bo Toei was performed by a student of Kwan Kwok Fai, who studied from both CLC and HHH. That performer was originally a Hung Ga stylist, he learned from Kwan Kwon Fai when he was in his mid-80�fs (now he is 91 and still performs). But the form he did we call Lok Ging Gau Bo Toei, 6 power 9 step push. There was an article on this form in Wulin magazine about 4 years ago by Siu Ting Fun, the current Grandmaster of the GuangDong Bak Mei group. The form is correct but unfortunately his performance looks like hung ga, his teacher was too old to do proper stances so he just substituted from his former training, and just could not be thought of as Bak Mei.

Yum Cha:
My insight on Bak Mei? Well I studied it for a long time, in China and Hong Kong. I live in Asia so I often go to GuangJau to help with the Association there and support their events. There, all the Bak Mei people, regardless of line, get together often and keep quite close. We just hosted a meeting for the HK Bak Mei Lai Cheung Assoc., the whole group got together and Cheung Bing Lum came too. So I keep in touch with my Bak Mei family a lot.

Hideous:
Thank you!


Kei Lun

[Hideous]

Kei Lun - Hideous: Thank you!

You are most assuredly, and deservingly, welcome, honey pot man.





































Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous

[fiercest tiger]

Why did you think i would flip out over the question you asked? Maybe in the past as fierce tiger ..lol but im a bit over all the Bullshiet that comes with my school and style is the best, so basically i just shut up and teach and train! Hopefully the proof is in the pudding as they say.;)
Thanks for the thread at least i brought to attention why YKM does things like this and that! You have some good knowledge and i hope one day to meet up and talk and show the tremor type of ging. Like i said ive never seen one tremor ging only springy type (Tarn ging)if thats the way to say it and spell it?:) Ive been to guangzhou 3 times now and have trained with a few guys that come from HHH. It has a dragon flavor to it as well, do you think the guangzhou bak mei have a dragon flavour?

Can you tell me why the vcd was called luk ging gau boy tau? Doesnt every move in pak mei use luk ging anyway? Also one more question regarding tremor, What does this do to a person why you hit them that other gings dont do?

thanks and many respects
FT Garry:)

[Yum Cha]

Hello, thanks for the glimpse into your background.

Its nice to know somebody visits our website, as well.

I have to admit to feeling a bit sandbagged though <grin>, as I am prone to guess that you may know the school where my Sifu came from, and that you may even know about him... Siu Ting Fun is whom our Sifu claims alliegence to.

You can check the pictures from Guangzhou on our website if you haven't already. You probably know of our Si Gung, Leung Sui Hoy as well.

News from the "old school" would be greatly appreciated...

Thanks for the details on the VCD, one of the great mysterys of pak mei video-dom has apparently been solved.

EAZ

Did I understand you correctly when you said the single finger salute was only used for the advanced patterns, the ones after Mam Fu?

I hope I haven't said anything offensive, I admire your line unreservedly.

Your Sifu is in town now? Did he bring you any presents? <grin>

You never answered my question about German or French.

FT
G'day matey. Getting chilly in the park....brrrrrr.

[fiercest tiger]

we usually train 3 mornings a week at 8 am!

take it easy
Garry

[CannonFist]

I have heard about the one finger salute. Its just like the 5 lakes 4 seas salute except that the right hand is a one finger pointing up formation. I understand that it can be used in any level Pak Mei forms but its usually used by senior sifus during demonstations. It signifies something like "I alone am tops...."

[fiercest tiger]

that would make it one lake and no sea's ...heheheh lol;)

[EAZ]

Originally posted by Yum Cha
EAZ

Did I understand you correctly when you said the single finger salute was only used for the advanced patterns, the ones after Mam Fu?

I hope I haven't said anything offensive, I admire your line unreservedly.

Your Sifu is in town now? Did he bring you any presents? <grin>

You never answered my question about German or French.

FT
G'day matey. Getting chilly in the park....brrrrrr.

1. Yes single finger = advanced forms (which few people in PM seem to practice anymore (I do not know them myself)

2. Absolutely nothing offensive in your quotes, no worries, same with Kei lun.

3. Sifu alterantes carrot and stick with dizzying spped throughing me into doubt, delight, desperation and outright mental fatigue in the end. Most satisfying.

4. I am Anglo-French but do speak a little German becuase of family origins (grand parent).

All the best and I wish you guys in Australia were'nt on the opposite side of the world from me.

EAZ

[kei lun]

Fiercest Tiger:
Why did I think you would flip out? Its just hard to judge someone�fs tone through text, just look at Hideous there having a hissy-fit over my each word. I can hear his next response to this now.
Who did you train with in Guang Jau? I don�ft think GuangJau Bak Mei has a dragon flavor, its just that most of them do practice dragon as well, just as YKM does. But most whom Ive met do try to keep it separate, just an opinion.
Its true all the forms do have �glok ging�h, I guess this is just for a flashy name, sounds good though don�ft it.

The power of tremor and the power of shock to an opponent? Hmmm, I see what your getting at�c tell me if I�fm right. I suppose you could say that the shock power is for penetration (single/multiple strikes), and tremor power is more of a repulsive force (a push, or good to get out of kum-la situations)! Hard to verbalize, but how�fs that?

Yum Cha:
Yes, I know. I did like your website, I was interested when I saw the GuangJau Pak Mei banner, as we have the same one in our school. Ask your Sifu if he knows the �gHop Geng Do/He Jing Dao Association�h under Lau Cheun (Siu Ting Fun�fs predecessor).

Oh yeah, the normal salute, of the palm and the fist is called �glau yip jeung�h - willow leaf palm, and the one finger salute is called �gyat ji heung�h - stick of incense. It represents the higher level forms in Bak Mei, by meaning that you are becoming skilled and knowledgeable, that you are beginning to �gstand alone�h. I believe for most schools Gau Bo Toei is the first form to start with this. Later its found in Sup Baat Moh Kiu, Man Foo Cheut Lum, Dei Sat, Jeui Hut Yee, etc. Do the HK schools practice this as well?


Kei Lun
- Kung Fu is Kung Fu, its not childs play! Lei Siu Lung

[fiercest tiger]

YES! Tones over the internet can be easily misjudged well especially me, i type the way i speak and half the time i dont mean it to sound rude, but it does!

Your breakdown of the tremor is ok i suppose, but what do i know, i havent seen it of felt it!:( As for kum la it can be countered with kum la or any other fighting range. To me shock power is the understanding of Fear and the power of subconscous re action, like someone burning you with a cigarette when your not ready and you react without thinking and hit the persons hand away. The springy or elastic type of power is the training through 2 man drills and special equipment so you tendons and sinews are strong and flexibly. So i really dont know the tremor ging methods, maybe i do but untill i see it i may understand what it is?:)

In guangzhou the students of HHH did and maybe still do dragon forms, in australia myself and my sihings do what was taught to us from our master LEUNG CHEUNG! The only form i see as dragon is the ying jow lin quil which was taken from lung ying mor kuil i was told. Doesnt look anything like it, it does have some moves though that look like some dragon strikes.


What is single force used for?
what was double force used for?

regards
FT:)

[CLOUD ONE]

Hi F.t,
Wouldn't you say that the different types of ging is acheived in stages of development?

To start you would practice faat ging, then on to shock power ging and then to the tremor ging.

To me they are part and parcel of the same thing once you get tremor ging your faat, shock power should improve.

This is only my opinion. I have heard of this tremor ging and kum-la techniques cannot be used. Once contact is made the opponents strucure is lost straight away because of the intensity of the tremor but it is done naturally without thought.

[fiercest tiger]

Hi Cloud, long time no here!:)

well like i said ive never seen tremor or felt but the rest shock power, sinking, thrusting, spirling, springy, neutralizing etc all used in deiferent stages and training development yes.

untill i see it i may know of it but im still not sure about this power! Most here have heard but never seen as well.

hopefully i will feel it and see one day.:(

FT:)

[Yum Cha]

Concerning the banner you spoke of, is that the "B" in the Yang Yin circle? That was sent to us by the school in Guangzhou to use.

I will ask sifu about the associations you mentioned, I believe he used to train with the sons of Leung Sui Hoy under Leung Sui Hoy, and he came to Australia just after his death.

EAZ - just get an assignment down here for a few weeks and we'll look after you....<grin>

[Sui]

hello gents
incedently is there a chinese name for the equivalent to the almighty"trremmorrrr gginnnggg".

me personaly i believe in dr wong he can through 15 guys with an inch,just like superman and can stick like spiderman but his classes are like the boy wonders...........

[Sui]

eaz,i thought you were cool and intellegent but you've been soc sao in by impractical internet form fairies.

hide,whats your input to "tremmmmmor ging"?i think its wonderful,just before the come down.

[Hideous]

Sui - me personaly i believe in dr wong he can through 15 guys with an inch,just like superman and can stick like spiderman but his classes are like the boy wonders...........

Ah yes, wonderful parlor tricks based on carefully constructed shapes subject to the laws of brother Newton. With Superman, Spiderman, and Boy Wonders [Plural, no less], the Marvel(ous) action heroes group is almost fully assembled, would you not agree?

Sui - eaz,i thought you were cool and intellegent but you've been soc sao in by impractical internet form fairies.

Form Fairies? I like that as it shows that even the comic book heroes of Marvel are capable of expanding their membership. There is much hope for all cults. Tell me Sui, do these Form Fairies have delicate and pretty uniforms made of silk and satin that go [Swoosh] when they madly and purposelessly swirl about?

Sui - hide,whats your input to "tremmmmmor ging"?

I tremor at the mere thought of it.

Sui - i think its wonderful,just before the come down.

Without a doubt Sui, without a doubt ;)

[Sui]

earth-you are of but not in it.lol but what can i say about their membership accept.lol

i think that[SWOOSH] is that same sound when tremmorr ginnng is vailed with silk,how dangermouse?

[fiercest tiger]

welcome back sui, hideious!

[Yum Cha]

ROTFL! I'm not saying anything!

[kei lun]

Fiercest Tiger:
You asked the effects of Shock and Tremor power on the opponent, not what they are. Like I said before shock power is for �gpenetrating strikes�h, and tremor power is a �grepulsive force�h (a push, or good to get out of kum-la situations). What I mean by that is that when someone puts a �glock�h on you, tremor power makes it impossible for them to hold on, even after they have done the technique. So that�fs what it does to the opponent. �gWhat it is�h, as you know is too much and too tough to convey accurately in words.

The Ying Jau Leem Kiu was adopted into Bak Mei by CLC, so he changed it to the version you saw/did. On the other side, Lam Yiu Kwai took one form from Bak Mei, Man Foo Ha San, and changed it to suit his Lung Ying style. 1 for 1. However, they didn�ft use these forms in KwangTung, only when they left to HK, so many of the KwangTung lines of Dragon and Bak Mei don�ft have these adopted forms.

Cloud One:
�gFaat Ging�h means �gexert power�h. So it applies to any power of any style, it is not a power itself.

Siu:
The name for tremor power is Sai Dong Ging. That �gtremor power�h term was started by Dr. Wong. I don�ft know how to say Sai Dong Ging in English. One Sifu called it �gdog shaking power�h, as it�fs a bit like when a dog comes out of the water and shakes himself off.

Kei Lun

[kei lun]

I can�ft sleep so Ill write a bit more.
Geng Ging, shock power, is over a short distance, however that doesn�ft mean its only for short arm techniques, as it comes from the body and out through the arms. What happens is like when you flip the end of a carpet, the wave goes through and along it, then the end snaps out. That is what the body does, the shock runs up through the spine and explodes out through the arms. If one were to do it slowly it looks

Sai Dong Ging: tremor power, is like an incredible �gvibration force�h that goes in all directions. That�fs why I said it is a repulsive force, anything that touches you when you exert this force is basically repulsed. If you look to Chen Tai Ji, in their �gpow choei�h form (the second one) they have a force quite similar in appearance to this. It looks very close, but to a bit of a more subtle degree. You must have seen pushhands demos where the opponent goes flying far back, well this is pretty much what Sai Dong Ging is.

For both of the powers, the more internal you get, the less externally visible it becomes.


Kei Lun

[Hideous]

fiercest tiger - welcome back sui, hideious!

Even as a good Taoist, I cannot come back to where I have not before been. Yet, the sentiment expressed is welcomed. The YKM Pai is appropriately acknowledged and appreciated within circles consisting of those whose opinions I value.






















Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[Ao Qin]

Hi Kei Lun,

If you don't mind telling us, what LY form is the current manifestation of Mang Foo Ha San?

Cheers!

[fiercest tiger]

Thanks for the berakdown although i really dont think that this Tremor Ging is against grappling only! WHY would a pak mei high level training be to shake someone off them if grabbed when they know the hands are skilled to attack and pak mei kum la sau can equal that of any other kum la sau fighter? You know what i mean? Even ju jitsu players can get out of holds and grabs and they dont have TREMOR ging.:(

The push hands game is just that a Game and i see more people use external force and leverage to bounce people away then use shock/spring/tremor or the faat ging like in taiji.

When i was taught to train ging, the whole body luk ging is used with sudden release of breath and chi with the mind to explode. My whole body vibrates/tremors is this the same? The hands have 6 types of powers,Do you know anything about this?:)

thanks again
Garry FT

:)

[fiercest tiger]

Sorry Hideous that or those questions were for kei lung.

Hideous, what taoist sect do you belong to? just curious

c-ya

FT

[Hideous]

FT - Hideous, what taoist sect do you belong to? just curious

The answer to that question would depend on the time of day, the time of season, and the time of life ;)





















Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[Sui]

hey whats wrong being me,you should be honoured my freind/foe;)

i can tremor if i want to:D

[fiercest tiger]

so your a taoist at heart and you really dont belong to a sect ot certain temple i take it?:)

[Yum Cha]

FT, Sui, Kei Lun

I have spoken with an old Tai Chi player who referenced the Tremor power as a shaking off or repulsing force too.

I've always attirbuted it to the collective martial arts/chi gung world, like 5 elements, as opposed to Pak Mei specifically. Now that I know "Sai Dong Ging" perhaps Sifu will have something to offer.

"Shaking dog" power makes me think of the signature move in Mam Fu Chit Lum though...

Then again, perhaps that's just my poor execution...<grin>

[fiercest tiger]

I have repulsive ging after a night on grog!:eek:

Fajing from taiji is the body shaking the waiste and hips. ykm internal has this fajing with cotton palm training but i call it vibrating kinda like tremor or taiji fajing,

thanx
Gazza:)

[kei lun]

Ao Qin:
Its called Man Foo Ha San, they didn�ft change the name. I don�ft know it but I saw it at a Dragon Performance Gala in HK a few years ago. It doesn�ft look like the Bak Mei form, and of course it has the same dragon opening. Cheung Kwok Tai was there too, ask him.

Fierciest Tiger:
Sorry, you just don�ft get it. If you think its easy to verbalize internal mechanics you try it. It has nothing to do with what you just talked about.
Yes, the hands do have 6 powers, as do the other parts, including the head.


And Fajing is mandarin for Faat Ging, they both simply mean to �gexert power�h, it is not the name of a power.


Kei Lun

[Shaolin Master]

One from earth, then from waist, the solemn energy is from the centre. exhuberating not only to the earth or the hands but the whole body. If incorrectly practised the effect on the organs is unjustified.

to go to Earth one must know heaven, to go to heaven one must commence with earth. but the centre is between both heaven and earth, the conceptualisation of man is the source of the energy.

[some translations from the classics]

rgds,

[fiercest tiger]

i understand about the hands and the luk ging dont worry about that. I was asking you the question!:)

Shaolinmaster
from the dan tien the center is this what you are saying, i said the hips and waist to make it a little more easier.

anyway does anyone know this tremor power of bak mei or is it just taiji fajing? If so then why not just practise taiji because i know they do this better then any of the bak mei tremor ging lol. Its because ive never seen any sifu do the forms like this!(loose boxing) of bak mei.

[Shaolin Master]

anyway does anyone know this tremor power of bak mei or is it just taiji fajing?

FT,
Fajing is just power manifestation there are many types such manifestations in taijiquan (as in all MAs). Then there is fundamental steps of jing development : Ming, An, Hua.
Do not become confused by the terminology and be careful of mixing mando with canto.

Also, just taiji fajing you say it as if it is so easy when in fact it is even rarely manifested by taiji people. reeling and releasing is not the same and that is what most see. One must observe the centre and how it manifests both inwardly and outwardly to understand

Taijiquan is an extremely wonderful art

[fiercest tiger]

thanks i understand that but was just tryoing at a basic level to say that!

thanks for your answr all the same.

:)

later
FT

[TAO YIN]

OK

What type of Ging should I use for the following attacks?

1. Using a phoenix eye fist to crack someone's throat?

A. GENG JAK GING B. SAAAAY DONG GING C. FAAAAT GING


2. Using a bil jee finger stike to drive into someone's eye?

A. GENG JAK GING B. SAAAAY DONG GING C. FAAAAT GING


3. Using a phoenix eye fist to crack someone's ribs?

A. GENG JAK GING B. SAAAAY DONG GING C. FAAAAT GING

4. Using a soy kuil to smash someone's collarbone?

A. GENG JAK GING B. SAAAAY DONG GING C. FAAAAT GING

5. Using a groin kick into the nuts?

A. GENG JAK GING B. SAAAAY DONG GING C. FAAAAT GING

6. Using a phoenix eye to bash someones temple?

A. GENG JAK GING B. SAAAAY DONG GING C. FAAAAT GING

7. last but not least, what type of tiger claw ging technique would be best for ripping out the heart?

8. oh yeah, is reeling silk part of dress making? Is this similar to cutting ribbons at all?

This is just for starters because after reading this thread I have become very confused about which Ging to use for some of these attacks....I mean would SAAAAAAY DONG GING work as an eardrum pop, clapping on both sides of the opponents head? Help me out here???!!!

Thanks very much,

Tao Yin

[fiercest tiger]

Tao Yin,

I would use chum ging! hahahah

nice post!

[CLOUD ONE]

All this talk about disecting and examining then labelling this ''powerful ging'' helps you to fully understand what ging is.


Reading some masters interpretation of ging would help you develop it much quicker.


A thought, is ging manifestation a consious or sub concious effort?

Just because you have not seen it, does that mean it doesn't exist?

Your tremor and someonelse's tremor, is it the same thing?

[fiercest tiger]

Im not saying because i havent seen it i dont know ot, but maybe i know it but havent seen it!:eek:

Half the people here or should i say most talk as if they can do it when none have seen the **** thing. Same as 5 elements, dr wong at least he has it on his website!! Who else.

Really i dont give a F@ck to tell you the truth, im banging my head against the wall really. hahahahaha :rolleyes: :o

[CLOUD ONE]

'' but maybe i know it but havent seen it!''


Know , Ahh! so to you it is a concious thing.
That clears it up.

Come on I don't think that is a good example for others to follow;)

[fiercest tiger]

lol, what ever dude!

[Sui]

whats up with you guys?to much love hahahaha

this what i "think"or even may have experience?brace yourself?

i've never heard of that discription all ging manifested will do what they say.but and i mean a very big but."ging lik"is only one entity another would be "si-lik"[might and mane] tchi lik[internal]fackh-lik[speed]these are all the entities i know of then there is ji-lik [finger tip]what would happen if one possed all or train all?[would it be tremor ging?].

yes its true.what i haven't heard doesn't mean that it does not exsist but,to whom?

[CLOUD ONE]

Could it be if you did meet the remarkable 'Dr Wong' and saw or touch hands with him then you could get a take on his 'tremor ging' or is it called 'brace ging'?
Maybe your disription would be the same or different.

Words are words-are they not my freind/foe?

F.T whatever dude lol

Tao yin- how many gings are there that you should use?

All or none?

[Hideous]

CLOUD ONE – Could it be if you did meet the remarkable 'Dr Wong' and saw or touch hands with him then you could get a take on his 'tremor ging' or is it called 'brace ging'?

You would agree that Pak Mei is a most exquisite martial art, would you not, my friend?

I do believe it is reasonable to ask the question - Of what value is tremor ging if Dr. Wong does in fact posses it? It is undeniable that a rather fat SPM practitioner of low skill repeatedly knocked down Dr. Wong, at least 6 times, during gong sau and did so in Dr. Wong’s own school. It does seem rather presumptuous but if Dr. Wong has this great ging, and his web page shows him knocking back 15 people, then perhaps it is the case that SPM is simply vastly superior to Pak Mei. Obviously, this cannot be the case, my friend. Therefore, …

CLOUD ONE - Maybe your disription would be the same or different.

I do believe that his description would depend, at least in part, on his position and perspective. For instance, if he was to assume the position of Dr. Wong, he would have to be flat on his posterior region, on the ground and looking up [See above].

Temor ging or no tremor ging; what is the ultimate value of such a thing beyond making a nice web page addition? If Dr. Wong’s tremor ging skill is real then this is a valid question, would you not agree, my friend?




















Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[fiercest tiger]

:cool:

[CLOUD ONE]

Sorry, I can't answer. Maybe you sould ask Dr Wong?

F.t- How's it mate? Hope to catch up on MSN.

[Hideous]

CLOUD ONE - Sorry, I can't answer. Maybe you sould ask Dr Wong?

Piffle. I do believe you would be well served by closely scrutinizing the inside of your residence, my friend. Perhaps you will be successful in locating your gonads.


































Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[CLOUD ONE]

Thanks for the tip. I wondered where they got to.

Could you locate my missing.........:confused: whilst your at it.

Thanks in advance.

[tnwingtsun]

Cloud

"Sorry, I can't answer. Maybe you sould ask Dr Wong?"


Hideous,I have kept quite through your posts reguarding
my Sifu and someone that you refer as the "fat man"
,on many posts you have reffered to the tape of my Sifu and friend getting knocked down .

I have seen four versions of this tape,yes,I was there when this took place,were you?
If you were not there then you are basing your insults,not matter how
articulate and passive-agressive you seem to be your information
is distorted by doctored tapes from both camps.
There are many versions of what took place on that day,but my eyes don't lie,I trained under Dr.Wong in the 80s,we trained
to fight,period,in the 90s things changed(for reasons that will stay in the family)
Dr.Wong has put out many strong and great fighters,he may disigree but IMHO most of them came from the 80s group.
I was the only one there from the 80s group when this took place.

There were also many Chattanooga Policman(SWAT/EOD),some high level that didn't want to be invoved because of their jobs.

Had this happened in the 80s(IMHO) the "Fat man" would have never reached my Sifu,he would NEVER made it through my Si-Hings.

Am I quaified to understand passive-agressive behavior when I see it or read it?

Yes I am.

You responed to my post about Dr.Wong going to China after the "Film festible"
He was not hurt,a bruise,a scratch,,then you made the analogy
of the Ali-Frazier fight,I don't have the time to recall your exact words but from what I can remember you said that Ali,banged up,went on to his normal life.

The "fat man",unlike Joe Frazier had to check into a hospital and suffered seizures(I saw him recive a hard shot to the head which swelled up the size of a golf ball),the "fat man" responded to me with threats from his laywer.

Well,I have no fear of his laywer,cuz I know mine is better.
And I also have the hopital documents to back it up.

Water under the bridge.

I'm not the kind of person to put anyone on a pedastol(typo),whether it be my WT instructor(which is hated and loved)
or Dr.Wong.


But,I think that is unfair to judge someone who you claim to have never met,maybe you have?

But we have never met.

Your system is Chu-ga?

(this is a high level kung-fu you profess?)

I have a open mind and would like to find out who and what schools teach the real Chu-ga.

If this is secret I understand,what I don't understand is why you continue to hide behind a name(passive) yet judge others
based on your poor facts(aggresive).

I would welcome a PM from you if this post is not offensive or below your standards so we may discuss this matter futher without all of the misapprehension


Peace.

[Pak Mei student]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tnwingtsun
[B]Cloud

Tnwinsing,

Hi bro!

Are you coming to the annual pak mei founder celebration this year?

peace.

[Hideous]

Tnwingtsun - I have seen four versions of this tape,yes,I was there when this took place,were you? … information is distorted by doctored tapes from both camps.

I was not there, my friend, as you surely must know. I have seen two altered versions and I thank you most kindly for the information regarding the total number of edited versions being four. Your willingness to confess that both sides of this affair are guilty of altering the video recorded truth of the matter speaks to a high level of honesty, my friend. I bow in your direction.

Tnwingtsun - Had this happened in the 80s(IMHO) the "Fat man" would have never reached my Sifu,he would NEVER made it through my Si-Hings.

Ah yes, yet more honesty. How this thing happened has always been a matter of much speculation, my friend.

Tnwingtsun - Am I quaified to understand passive-agressive behavior when I see it or read it? Yes I am.

Perhaps you are and perhaps you are not, my friend. Qualifications are often times relative, would you not agree, my friend?

Tnwingtsun - The "fat man", … suffered seizures (I saw him recive a hard shot to the head which swelled up the size of a golf ball),

Seizure is not the typical response to head trauma that presents as edema outside of the brain cavity proper, my friend. Howsoever, your words, thus far, ring true and I will accept your diagnosis as stated.

Tnwingtsun - … the "fat man" responded to me with threats from his laywer.

This too conforms to what his standard operating procedure would dictate and, therefore, I believe it to be true as well.

Tnwingtsun - And I also have the hopital documents to back it up.

I find it interesting that you were able to obtain a copy of his medical records, my friend. Am I correct in believing that you have a copy of his hospital emergency room [Admit and Discharge Summary], my friend? If so, and you obtained said copy without the fat one having signed an Authorization to Release Information form …

Tnwingtsun - But,I think that is unfair to judge someone who you claim to have never met,…

Rather hypocritical of you to make such a statement after having publicly declaring yourself qualified to make a psychiatric diagnosis based on forum posts and terming me [passive-aggressive], would you not agree, my friend?

Tnwingtsun - … I don't understand is why you continue to hide behind a name(passive) yet judge others
based on your poor facts(aggresive).

That is the whole of your diagnostic criteria, my friend? You have misrepresented yourself and you expertise, would you not agree, my friend?

I will send you a PM as you have suggested, my friend. Please allow me to state for the public record that your accounting of unfortunate event does, in fact, ring true. Let me also state that you, and your brothers, remained silent on this matter for far too long and did your Sifu, your hand, and the greater Hakka martial arts community a great disservice. When the fat one made the altered video tapes public and violated his agreement with Dr. Wong, all of you, in unison, should have immediately stepped forward and declared the truth of the matter. Instead, you were content to remain in the shadows and allow the misrepresentation of the incident go unchallenged. Therefore, a false and manufactured picture of what occurred was allowed to grow and disseminate. Your actions, or more properly, your lack of action, was shameful in the extreme. Please do not bother to post that your actions were in accordance with the wishes of your Sifu, my friend. That would be a rather lame excuse suitable and plausible for a beginning student but not one that rings true for one with your experience and knowledge that your Sifu, as all men, has feet of clay.

Peace to you as well, my friend.













Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[fiercest tiger]

I think you guys really should stop all this!

WHY, Hideous are you keeping this alive, the fight with hagood and dr wong? Has Dr Wong done something to you?

FT:(

[Dale Dugas]

Hideous,

I know you will have to get out your rather large thesaurus and use extra big words when you see this post in response to your rather negative diatribes about Dr. Wong and another person you insist on calling the "fat man".

Funny that you never have publically named yourself. That makes most of us wonder who you are and what you are about. You have something about being the troll extraordinaire or what? Or is it more along the lines that you cannot face yourself or others with the knowledge of who you are?

I have never met Dr. Wong, but that does not make me want to slander him. If you are saying that this so called "fat man" is who fiercest tiger alluded to, Mr. Roger Hagood, then we have some serious trouble between the two of us.

I have met with Mr. Hagood face to face and have felt his hand. His skill is not that low level as you claim it to be. He has never showed me anything other than respect on many levels, and I consider him to be a friend as well as a senior to whom I look up to for his dedication to SPM.

Have you ever met him and touch hands? Or is this another of your "I have seen him on tape enough to fully judge his skills?"

You are insulting and a total coward who cowers behind his screenname as so many others do on this board. Catchy names do not make you better at anything other than showing others you have some slight amount of imagination.

Stop insulting people like Mr. Hagood and Dr. Wong. Like you said to TNWingchun about waiting when someone attacks you or someone you know. You recently have started all this crap, and here I am up in arms about it.

You want to start insulting people, then be a real man and come out of the woodwork and tell everyone who you are and where you come from. I do, and you don't see me cowering in my house worried if some creep is going to show up at the door. Would be great to Kong Sau, it has been a while since I had one.

Your are the plague that has been created from cyberspace being invaded by too much fantasy and not enough time drilling your hand/skill.

Keep it up, you are showing us so much with your long drawn out rants about skill and power. Not!

What do you have to hide? I am a real person, why can't you be one as well?

In Boston,

Dale Dugas

[Hideous]

Dale Dugas [Who?] - I have never met Dr. Wong, but that does not make me want to slander him.

Irrelevant as you are no one, my friend.


Dale Dugas – If you are saying that this so called "fat man" is who fiercest tiger alluded to, Mr. Roger Hagood, then we have some serious trouble between the two of us.

A rather nonsensical statement and one that lacks merit or bite. [Meow] little kitty, now do be good and go back to playing in your sand box.

Dale Dugas - That makes most of us wonder who you are and what you are about.

You must be rather fat yourself to consider your voice and presence to constitute [most of us], would you not agree, my friend?

Dale Dugas - Or is it more along the lines that you cannot face yourself or others with the knowledge of who you are?

Neither guess is even remotely correct. Please do not quit your day job, my friend. The economy is in a down turn and you fail utterly as a psychic. Oh, do stay away from the race track as well, my friend.

Dale Dugas - I have met with Mr. Hagood face to face and have felt his hand.

Irrelevant as you are no one and possess no skill, therefore, you have nothing with which to craft a valid opinion, my friend.

Dale Dugas - His skill is not that low level as you claim it to be.

Please see above.

Dale Dugas - You recently have started all this crap, and here I am up in arms about it.

Actually, you are in way over your head in crap, my friend. Please confine yourself to playing in your sand box, [Meow] kitty, [Meow].

Dale Dugas - Would be great to Kong Sau, it has been a while since I had one.

It is very doubtful that you have ever had one my rather boisterous friend. Your pathetic attempts at threats are as is your skill, non-existent.

I do find it amusing that of all the various groups in the SPM family, yours and yours alone, is constantly embroiled in urinary Olympiads. Yet, the simple truth of the matter is that none of you do anything more than posture and pose. There are some people waiting for the fat one’s return. They are in Minnesota, and they have some beginner students to accommodate your professed desire to engage in gong sau. They have been waiting for over 8 years now and the fat one’s contention that he recently showed on their doorstep is a blatant falsehood. The fat one [called by telephone] from Chicago and [asked] if he could visit their school. He was told [no] as he had violated his oath given during bai shi, and this was not the first time the fat one had done such a disgraceful, dishonest, self-serving and egocentric based thing. Unknown to the fat one this conversation was recorded. Typically, you and other members of your decidedly pathetic lot embroil others in a flame war in order to compel the Forum Mod take down the entire thread as none of you can withstand the light of truth. Typically, the fat one employs his [lawyer fu] to pressure forum Administrators into taking down perfectly legal posts. This rather antiquated tactic will not play in this arena, my friend. You are a complete fraud, my friend, and you have earned your position on my Ignore List. Your attempt at inciting a flame war of challenges is effectively extinguished and your efforts at manufacturing a reason to have the thread taken down have failed, my friend.












Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[Hideous]

FT - I think you guys really should stop all this!

Agreed, my friend, agreed.

FT - WHY, Hideous are you keeping this alive, the fight with hagood and dr wong? Has Dr Wong done something to you?

Indeed not, my friend. I found Dr. Wong to be an honest, sincere, decent, scholarly and pleasant person. The silence by those who know better and should have taken a corrective course of action long ago is the sole reason for my pursuing this matter, my friend. Now that the matter has been properly set forth before the public, I consider the matter closed, my friend.


























Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[Dale Dugas]

Now have to step back and bow to you oh unknown master of nothing but warm flatulence. Funny that you can make your posts look all cool with quoting me and then answering underneath like some of those old short essay answers our teachers from grade school liked so much. Too bad it doesnt do anything.

I am no one? That is true on some levels and on others it is not. I am actually a real flesh and blood man. You are just a silly screen name who attemtps to show all the board you know much more and in greater depth. You really do not do a good job of it.

But at least I open the door and let people see who I am. You can go on about how I am this and I am that. At least I tell it like I see it. I have no political agenda unlike yourself. You should rename yourself, as Hide My A.S.S. as you are a coward. I think you have no inkling of the true definition. Go look it up and then get back to us on this.

You don't have to agree with anything I say as that is the great thing about opinions, they are our own. I can say that your opinions suck and you can say the same thing of my own.

I agree completely that we can have this urinating contest until the cows come home.

But you didn't touch on the fact that I did what you asked TNvingtsun to do. I am standing up and saying "Hey, you faceless coward-boy! Here I am and I think you are full of you know what!"

Though you seem to want to be some form of stand up comic.

You don't have a lot of material and seem to only want to dredge up enough drek on others. Especially those people who you get into your squinty little eyes for some reason or another.

You must be some skinny little stick that has no confidence in themselves or their hand/skill/pai. You must have learned nothing but meaningless brocade legs and embroidered hands.

Im the bully, but you can sit here and go on and on about how you know the real secrets and all us others are wasting our time. Man, I gotta love that. Who trained you? Where did you get this great training?

You are funny.

In Boston,

Dale Dugas

[sanjia]

Strange days, indeed.

Hideous :
I for one can be counted amongst the 'most of us' who wonders who you are, irrelevant or not. Particularly to me, as I know no-one of whom these discussions are based on. Wonder I do, nonetheless.
I also wonder why you make this statement "Irrelevant as you are no one and possess no skill, therefore, you have nothing with which to craft a valid opinion"?
Can you therefore craft a valid opinion on the subject matter? If yes, then why? On what basis? Do you make your assessment of the target for the above statement by knowledge of the individual, or by his teachers, or pai?


Mark

[Hideous]

Sanjia – I for one can be counted amongst the 'most of us' who wonders who you are, irrelevant or not.

Your wonder is wonderful, my friend.

Sanjia - Can you therefore craft a valid opinion on the subject matter?

Yes

Sanjia - If yes, then why? On what basis?

Please see earlier posts wherein I set forth the provisions, context and scope of my posts, which are all personal opinion based, nothing more, nothing less.

Sanjia - Do you make your assessment of the target for the above statement by knowledge of the individual, or by his teachers, or pai?

[Target] is such an ugly and harsh word, would you not agree, my friend. In answer to your other questions the answer is [Yes] to all of the above.





















Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[Dale Dugas]

Mark,

Thank you for braving the waters of the illustrious man who can tell you that I have no skill and am nothing more than a big pest. You signed your name and I have signed my name. But this person? He is not anything but a coward who really needs to learn that the more you hide, the more people know you have nothing to offer. I came out of the woodwork as something was mentioned about someone who I know personally and respect.

Being that Hideous has never met me nor knows my skills, his postings are full of it to say the least. At least I name names, least of which my own. Love how you kept saying the fat man with low level SPM skills. That says boatloads about you.

He is nothing but another Turiyan clone. Full of nothing but what he gleamed from books and his moms rantings.

In Boston,

Dale

[Daniel]

Hideous does not know Dale Dugas,
Dale has touched hands with Dr. Hagood,
Dr.Wong is in TN.
Dale Dugas is in Boston
I have never met Dr. Hagood.
I have met Dr. Wong.
I have met Louie Jack Man.
I have met Gin Foon Mark.
I have met Henry Poo Yee.
I have pictures of myself with most of them.
I know little to nothing about SPM.
I do know about Bak Mei Pai,
I do Know about Lung Ying Pai
and I do know that You would have to be one hell of a fighter to take on Dale Dugas and stand a chance.
His Iron Skills are trained in an insane manner and unlike most of the wannabe fighters out ther Dale actually fights for real.
He has fought full contact in asia and has worked as a bouncer here in the states in a club that actually needed him on a regular basis. He has been stabed and had bones broken only to heal and come back stronger.
Dale is an example of a hard working, dedicated and disciplined martial artist.
He has fought through sterotypes and racism to get to trian in some of the material he has trained in.
He has not sold himself out for money or fame, in that reguard,
he is no one.
But he does exist. He is not afraid to tell his name. He is not afraid to show his face.
I can assure you that he is not afraid of what little skill Hideous may have obtained by eating chips and typing on her computer while watching Kung Fu Movies wishing she was somebody special.
The people who actually train don't go around insulting everyone else unprovoked.
They know how hard the work is and respect that.
It is unfortunate that this board does not require real names for acountability. But then I guess many of you would not use the board. No fantasy to hide behind.
Who am I?
After 22 years of hard training and long consideration I am proud to remain another nobody.

Daniel Eckart
Muncie, In

[Hideous]

Daniel Eckart - [Meow] oh my, yet another little kitty has lost his sand box. This Ignore function is wonderful, would you not agree, my friend?


























Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[Dale Dugas]

Kitties and no names. Oh boy, the all supreme Chu Gar Gao master has shown his true colors at last. He sees kitties everywhere as he is one and cannot get the image out of his brain.

Thanks for the support, Daniel. Very succinct and to the point.

Peace,

Dale Dugas

[sanjia]

Hideous : "In answer to your other questions the answer is [Yes] to all of the above."

You make yourself clear now, that is all I need to say.


Dale : "Thank you for braving the waters of the illustrious man who can tell you that I have no skill and am nothing more than a big pest. You signed your name and I have signed my name"

Indeed, Dale, indeed. I hope you are well, sir.

Perhaps I will be a 'kitty' now.

Hideous : Ever watched how a cat [kitty] will 'test the waters' with his paw [claw]?

Mark

[Sui]

ok fella's "the proof is in the pudding"?

hide i'll make a bargain with you.[see how good your hand is]

you sort dale gayal out and i'll sort san the little man out.o.k?see if you dare guys to call my bluff.

dale you print out where you live and your name[real name]

mark you give me you surname and your address[school,house it doesn't matter]and i bet you hide i'll have it sorted out faster than you?
lets see who's really hiding?and lets see if you'll challenge anyone else?

and let it be a lesson to you.hahahaha

[TAO YIN]

Cool,

If you guys are gonna gong sau make some videos up and put them on here. This way we will all be able to dissect the internal aspects of all these different gings and see which type is better suited for a fight.

Then we can have more who beat who on video debates.

Sounds kuil huh?

TAO

:p

[kei lun]

Pak Mei Student:

What was that about annual Pak Mei founder celebration?

[sanjia]

sui : "mark you give me you surname and your address[school,house it doesn't matter]"

Bluff called dip****, you had my name and address, remember?
Now, you tell me your name, and your address, oh yes, and who taught you?
Inquiring minds want to know.

Mark

[sanjia]

sui :"lets see who's really hiding?and lets see if you'll challenge anyone else?"

This is rich indeed from someone who has never given a name, or even a country.

Pray tell when did I challenge anyone? At all? Well?

I shall tell my teachers teacher who I will see in a few days that a nameless, faceless typist challenges that he will come and beat me up with his superior Pak Mei skills, taught to him by, errr, someone.
I wonder what he will say?


Mark

[tnwingtsun]

Hidious-Its not up to you to decide or dictate what actions
my brothers,school and Sifu took or will take reguarding
this issue.

This is water under the bridge as far as I'm concerned,my Sifu never felt the need to clarify to the public as to what took place in 1996,so as a mature adult you should not concern youself to amplify this past event,if you have bad relations with the other person in question,I suggest that you take it up with him, as far as my conections for information,well,thats none of your business.

As a matter of fact and public record this event that took place
six years ago is none of your business and its not your place
to keep it alive by dragging my Sifu's name into it,this will be the last thing I have to say about this issue.

As far as Dale Dugas in Boston is concerned,I have spoken to him on many occasions and enjoyed every conversation we've had,I don't care if "He has fought full contact in asia and has worked as a bouncer here in the states in a club that actually needed him on a regular basis. He has been stabed and had bones broken only to heal and come back stronger."

We've shared some of each others personal life experiences and I find him to be a nice guy,if I ever make it up to Boston I'm gonna look him up so he can buy the first round!! :)

He's just trying to get things stirred up Dale,let it slide bro and don't waste your time on this guy.

Now I've got to get some sleep,its off to the beach with the kids,
be back next week.

[tnwingtsun]

One more thing,YAWN!!!


About what kei lun said,Pak Mei Student,can you expand on this??

[Hideous]

tnwingtsun - I hope you have a safe and wonderful vacation, my friend. All your associations and conversations with those who continue to support the fat one who lied and then publicly disrespected the one you call Sifu must have you very tired out in deed, my friend. I have no personal experience in such matters, howsoever, I do believe that constant betrayal must be very draining, rest well my friend, so that you can betray some more.

sui - I am most sorry, my friend, but there is a party planned in St. Paul for the mommy kitty, likuei, or Horse Tamer, by whatever name he hides behind when disrespecting others. It is after careful consideration that I conclude that [the fat one] is the best name for this one. Some honored guests will be there and I yield to their superior stature. They are so very kind and considerate that they have even insured presents for all the kitties of the fat one. Put the kitty kats on your Ignore List as they truly love to play with balls of string, my friend.



















Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[Sui]

san the little man,it is i that accept but i thought as much.all talk little one,don't be shy i could always send a cousin of the same level to cross hands with you?[there are a few family members who owe me]

hideouse,you decline.without the verdict of bluff[i wasn't aware that spm is like that]

p.s mark you never gave me your surname or your address just that you are called mark.shame i wasn't gonna put you in hospital or worse the morgue.

[Hideous]

Sui - hideouse,you decline.without the verdict of bluff[i wasn't aware that spm is like that]

Ah yes, the jaded public persona of SPM, such a shame really, my friend. Mo duk requires that I yield without question to those with higher eyebrows than mine, my friend. Inasmuch this affair is most properly between the fat one [and his kittys] and those who truly, rightfully, and honestly hold the hand which the commercial others wrongfully, shamelessly, and rudely claim I am without a defensible position, my friend. Please do consider the merits and benefits of placing these kittens going [meow] on your Ignore List. It makes them as their skill in the hand, invisible :D





































Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[Sui]

hideouse,thank you but i do not read to those who are so in their illusion.instead i leave to them that ignorance is bliss.

thank you,i get you--sui:)

[Dale Dugas]

I just sent a PM to Sui and maybe it went through and maybe not. Hideous' PM box said it was full, but that an email was sent to him telling that.

Oh well. At least I tried.

Again we seem to be competing with all these wannabes who hide behind their screen names and have nothing filled in their profiles to suggest anything other than they have great flights of imagination.

I have been thrown out of a few associations for being aggressive and not being able to palate most of the freaking idiots who claim to be martial artists. Too many times during training someone would not do the technique as shown to us by the Sifu and that idiot got nailed by his own inability to either follow directions or correctly perform the technique. I was always taught that you want realism in your training. So when we drill I really punch at the target indicated by the instructor. Not my fault if you cannot block correctly. Plus you always learn by mistakes.

There is an old saying you see in some of the old school hardcore gwoons. The more you sweat and bleed in the training hall, the less you will sweat and bleed on the street. I seem to have taken to this maxim personally.

All I get from you two is insults and innuendo about me being a kitty cat. Is that grown up or what. Then you throw my challenge back in my face like it is that easy to do. In reality it is not that simple and I have an elephantine memory. Enough said about that.

Funny that I have people from different places stepping up to back me up. I consider them friends. Funny only another no namer comes to defend hid. Go figure.

You guys can PM me and email as I accept any and all mail from people interested in learning and exchanging ideas and information be it verbal or physical.

Let me know if either of you are interested. I could stand to learn a lot if you are truthful in your statments. If not then I could show you a thing or two.

In Boston,

Dale Dugas

[Sui]

hideouse dales calling your name and you e-mail box is full.

do what you want dale its only hideouse your after.lol good job its not me your bfp and spm is too strong i'm waiting for san the little man.

[guohuen]

I consider tnwingchun and Dale Dugas brothers. If they need my help, they've got it. I can be in Hanover in two hours.

[Hideous]

Guohuen – Perhaps you could add the fat one to your list and then you would have the Andrew Sisters, my friend, [Meow kitty, meow]

Oh, and Ignore List :D



































Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[Dale Dugas]

Another brother/friend. Thanks, but this will not have to be the case here.

I apologize for starting this, but it was instigated by hid.

Anything that happens will be conducted off list.

In Boston,

Dale

[guohuen]

"Buttons! I don't need no stinking buttons" I worked at the Vermont state hospital and the Vermont department of corrections. I have a mental ignore button that works just fine. BTW, The Andrews sister were way cool!

[tnwingtsun]

FIDO,I was raised at 18 by LRP's and LRRPs NCOs,back in the early 80's,they were my daddys,PM me anytime,if it wern't 4 them(and I think you)I'd be room temp.




I was schooled by some very old Non-Commissioned Officers and thats where I get it from. I may offend people, I may aggravate people and I may even annoy people but I never intend things personally. In a nutshell...I call it like I see it.


ya got my push and my comic book...........






To the others,


DON'T HATE ME CUZ YA AIN'T ME!!!!

[tnwingtsun]

Hidious-Are you a Minnisota Mud Duck?

Are you Jook-Lum?

If not then why does your hotmail start with jl??????????????

Once again its none of your biz how we handle this,keep your internal SPM hissy fits between the one you call the "fat one"
and your school.



"All your associations and conversations with those who continue to support the fat one who lied and then publicly disrespected the one you call Sifu must have you very tired out in deed, my friend. I have no personal experience in such matters, howsoever, I do believe that constant betrayal must be very draining, rest well my friend, so that you can betray some more."

" so that you can betray some more"


You are cluess in this matter,and you have no idea what information I have,we may have the same opions on this matter
and share the same end result.

Stick to your own tactics,I don't need your advice,if its such a sharp thorne in your arse,have your party and get it over with.


I am neither drained nor tired,I stay in the circle.

BTW,the Carolina Coast blows away the thousands lakes any day,
say hi to Jessie for me
:D