What is traditional?

[DelicateSound]

[Spin off of Sevenstar's thread.]

The general "theorum" amongst some CMA's is that "traditional" is all forms, chi sao and light sparring.

Ignorant BJJ guys love to say that Kung Fu isn't realistic as its "traditional" methods can't compare to the full-contact, crosstraining methods of the MMA and UFC "lineages".

A lot of the type of person in Sevenstar's thread are very "my lineage is superior", "crosstraining leaves you with a mish-mash of techniques" etc.




However, in the past wasn't crosstraining the norm, as Masters sent their students over to other schools to brush up? Wasn't Praying Mantis created as a sort of crosstrain?

Wasn't sparring done at almost full contact, with minimum padding? Didn't sparring take a larger part of training than forms and chi sao etc.


In my experience crosstraining CAN be a good thing. Not as a mish-mash of styles as many people end up with, but as a way of "fixing" the weaker points of your style. It has been done for 1000's of years. MMA is a step BACKWARDS, a renaissance of a former accepted norm, not some revolutionary theory that spells the death-knell to the "traditional" training methods.


Surely there should be no debate on this. Style VS Style has been done to death, and on this board we've pretty much into agreement that "almost any style can be effective if used correctly by the individual practitioner".


Can't be put the issue of crosstraining to rest? Something like "crosstraining CAN be an effective training tool if used correctly by the practitioner to supplement any possible weaknesses in their chosen style or individual method of combat."


No? I just really feel that "my methods are better than yours" get in the way of the MA theory of self-improvement. Clouds the issue. People who cannot make themselves good fighters hide behind their style's reputation. i.e: Ralek.


What do you think guys? :) If it sounds like I'm on the soapbox - sorry. Just kind of my thoughts on the issue.



:)

[PaulLin]

I am thinking of when a new stuff added into a system, does it just the extention of already existed requirements/techniques in the system that has been passed down for generations or it is some thing new that is out side of the traditional taught? There should be a fine line to draw these apart and determind if a tradition was changed. Eventually, all new arts that will be a traditional arts when they are old enough in years.

There is some thing we Chinese call "Jie", in word, it means section. Bisically to have a Jie in your system is very important in TCMA. There are cases of mixing different arts together, they will make sure all lineages was properly represented/credited in the new name that was given or how it was passed down.

If I see some good stuff that I must have inorder to complete some funtions/applications that I have never had form my traditional system, then I will surely becomes a mixed artist instead. But before I try any things else, I will do my best to improve my own traditional taughts and push all that to their potential limit so I can contribute my best into the MA world form my knowledges rather then just to copy what others already mastered, and not contribute any further knowledges. Personal win or lost is not more important then digging out more knowledges into the traditionals.

That is what I am thinking.

[DelicateSound]

On a personal note PaulLin, that is EXACTLY my sentiment.

I would rather nowadays learn one art only, and master it completely, even if it means sacrificing the "easy way" to a certain move, I'd rather make my art work for me.

However, I think most people disagree on this, hence my post :)





But yes Paul. Exactly my thoughts.

[Shaolindynasty]

I find that most all martial arts(good ones) train pretty much the same. basic techniques, "bagwork" of some kind, drills, sparring, physical condition etc.

Cross training ISN'T new. It's more common than not in CMA. The terms are new that's all. Cross training isn't as nessacary for self defense as every one makes it out to be either.

[DelicateSound]

What is your style BTW PaulLin, if you don't mind me asking.


SD: Yes, terms often confuse the issue.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by DelicateSound
What is your style BTW PaulLin, if you don't mind me asking.


SD: Yes, terms often confuse the issue.
I can put this question this way,
If I were practicing on my own, it will be about:

Tai Chi 15%
Hsing-I 10%
BaGua 15%
Shuai Chiao 15%
8 step mantis 10%
Tzon he 5%
Tan Tui 5%
Chin Na 5%
KunLunDanTao 20%

If I was response to application situation, it is about:

TaiChi 5%
Hsing-I 20%
Ba Gua 20%
Shuai Chiao 20%
8 step mantis 10%
Tzon He 5%
TanTui 5%
ChinNa 10%
KunLunDanTao 5%

TaiChi is YangStyle related, it was kind of modified by Hsing-I, BaGua, and ShuaiChaio.

TzonHe I have only the 5 element foundations.

TanTui I have the old version of 10 sections.

ChinNa is the 36 foundation of ShiaoLin ChinNa.

KunLunDanTao is only meditation, no physical applications. It could be applied to support other styles internally.

[DelicateSound]

Phew!

22+ years of training. That's pretty impressive mate I must say. :)

XingYi, Pa-kua and TaiChi are the mainstay then with Shuai Chiao and 8step.

That's what I call crosstraining.


What do you think of XingYi. I've always been interested in it, and really want to learn some soon, but I have little opportunity :(

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by DelicateSound
Phew!

22+ years of training. That's pretty impressive mate I must say. :)

XingYi, Pa-kua and TaiChi are the mainstay then with Shuai Chiao and 8step.

That's what I call crosstraining.


What do you think of XingYi. I've always been interested in it, and really want to learn some soon, but I have little opportunity :(

Taichi, XingYi, BaGua, have one very important main common training--ZhanZhong. You can use all different postures in all 3 styles in training, they compeletes each other.

XingYi would build your internal stenght faster, Bagua has smoother and smarter applications, Taichi has most deeper internal ways. XingYi is a very good way to inter the internal arts, you will have to start with structure/postures requirements to firm your center first, and then moving with lines that condenced at the end target with whole body movements always. You will start with showed power, move towards hidden and harmonized powers (ming jin, an jin, hua jin). For most people, I would recommended to have some XingYi, then train Bagua and Taichi.

[DelicateSound]

The problem is, that as a guy really into Wing Chun, Bagua's circular concepts seem a bit "foreign". I can understand how it interlinks perfectly with XingYi [an art I know more about] though.

"Real" Tai Chi I know very little about. 98% of what you see in the UK is absolute crap. Basically it's an exercise appealing to the more discerning granny.

A real shame to tell the truth. :( From what I've seen XingYi is the same here too. :(

[HuangKaiVun]

Crosstraining WAS AND IS the norm in Chinese martial arts.

Was it not the norm, you wouldn't see styles mixing with each other and taking sets back and forth.

Guys fought each other all the time under various circumstances. If somebody got beaten and lived to tell about it, he either readjusted his style or stole somebody else's moves. Even today, traditional sifus take their students to face other students from other styles.

The externals of a style (drills, sparring, weapons, etc . . .) ideally are meant to point the practitioner to a higher reality. Many masters in the past required students to create their own sets using the philosophy of their style - that's how they found out if the students really grasped the ESSENCE of what they learned. It's in that way styles grow.

A style that doesn't accept improvement is a DEAD STYLE and will result in a DEAD PRACTITIONER, no matter how purportedly unbeatable the style's exponents say it is.


If you REALLY want to learn Xingyi for combat, DelicateSound, do as Guo Yunshen did and study the moves of 5 Elements.

Then TRY THEM against all sorts of people. Even if you studied them "improperly", you'll find out what works and what doesn't. That's what Guo did about 100 years ago, and that's a big reason why Guo was reknowned as a fighter.

But before you do that, work on your standing meditation. It'll help you hit harder, and it'll also help you take hits better.

[Brad]

But before you do that, work on your standing meditation. It'll help you hit harder, and it'll also help you take hits better.
Not to mention develop a strong mind. I'm trying to do a lot more of this to improve my focus and work ethic. Standing there for even five minutes trying to keep a calm mind, while regulating your breathing and posture is hard work!

[Brad]

Taichi, XingYi, BaGua, have one very important main common training--ZhanZhong
For Xingyi would this be holding the Santi position?

[Xebsball]

San Ti Shi is one of them, but theres others too