What the grapplers think of us

[Crimson Phoenix]

Okie, did I get your attention?
Well, of course, thanks heaven it's not all grapplers...but check what I have found about us (the forum they refer to in the thread is cyberkwoon).
That's scary and pityful...these guys have the typical kungfu movie stereotypes that all of us dropped an eternity ago already...ahhh well...
judge by yourself:

http://www.mma.tv/TUF/DisplayMessages.cfm?TID=44988&P=131&FID=1

[Xebsball]

Yeah most those guys suck, dont mind them

[ewallace]

What can I say? Dumb****asitas thrives in all climates.

[Gabriel]

Yeah most of em are obtuse idiots, but if you read through parts of the thread, you'll see there's those who have a healthy respect for CMA. Diamonds in the rough, eh?

[scotty1]

If you read the Cyberkwoon thread they're referring to you'll see why.

The stereotypes are annoying though.

But who gives a f*ck, really?

[Xebsball]

Yeah **** em ****ers

[rogue]

"these guys have the typical kungfu movie stereotypes that all of us dropped an eternity ago already"

While I don't agree with what they say I think many KF people still perpetrate the KF movie stereotype(Anybody remember the giant Jet Li thread?). Look at the covers of KFM, everytime the culture of CMA is presented ( monks, postures, traditional garb, people trying to look like animals) the stereotype is reinforced. I think if the cultural parts were dropped and the combat shown on it's own it would get more respect, but it seems that the cultural parts are part of the lure of CMA for many and as important as the combatives, so that isn't going to happen. So if you're happy doing what you're doing who cares what others think.

[rubthebuddha]

similar stereotypes we have, and the same problems. a lot of CMA people think "bah, they can't touch me and my mighty ___ technique," then get dropped and broken." on the flipside, a lot of grappling folks think "bah, they can't hit me hard enough to stop my charge," then get knocked unconcscious by a palm to the back of the head as they're shooting in.

honestly, i doubt those people on that link have ever even watched live CMA and I'd wager that they think that what they see on TV late at night is what qualifies for good, stout CMA.

it's just the ignorant and naive pretending to sound experienced.

[DelicateSound]

So what, ignorance is rife.

I don't understand why they try to "educate" us. It's not like they're getting our subscription fees to MMA mag!

I respect grappling [my main BG] but like any art is isn't the be all and end all.

ANY art can be effective, under the hands of a skilled practitioner. The grappling craze was so effective as many people were ignorant of it. We learned to respect it. Any grappler that's met a decent CMA guy [as I did] know what it can do, and to respect it.



However, you learn what you like to learn. If these guys like MMA, that's cool, we all like different things.

If they are ignorant of CMA, that's OK - if they ever meet a DECENT CMA on the street they'll get licked through ignorance alone.

Each to their own. So they "insult" us. I am confident in my choice and that is all that matters. Why take notice of ignorant people?

[rubthebuddha]

point taken. :o

[DelicateSound]

'Ts OK dude, just remember that 99% of people know jack. Be they MMA or CMA. The grapplers like Merry and Ryu that make a decent, considered case for grappling are the ones we should listen to.

[Merryprankster]

Me? Considerate? That's a first...

Oh, never mind--you said considered...my mistake :)

[dre]

Wow , only another reason to hate BJJ. How surprising.

[Merryprankster]

Stolen from cyberkwoon:


Anyone here have experience pitting kung fu against a grappling art in a sparring situation? I?m working on ways to protect against a take-down. (they come in low to grab the knees). The key seems to be the timing of the counter-attack during the take-down attempt. Any thoughts or advice?

I?m considering the following strategies...

- Front kick to face. Straight forward & brutal but not nice to do to a friend. Also, I suppose there might be a danger in having that leg caught.

- Mandarin-Duck Kick (double kick) to face. See above but with a little deception, perhaps reducing the opponent?s ability to grasp the kicking leg?

- Donkey kick to the face. (kicking with both feet out of a hand-stand) Would take some work on speed, but I can see some advantages to this approach and it would look way-cool. Again, it wouldn?t be a nice thing to do to a friend, but if I were to miss with the kick, I think I?d end up in an advantageous position on the back of my opponent anyway.

- Cau Liem Cuoc (sp?) to face (turning back kick along the mid-line of the body---ouch) Again, not very nice...

-Deep Stance. Shifting weight forward onto plant-leg in bow stance while striking.

Deep Stance & downward elbow strike to the top of the head---yes, I know, this is a vital-point strike and a good way to kill someone. I won't use it.

Anyone tried these or any other techniques?

Wow, only another reason to make fun of Kung Fu. How surprising.

Let's face it--each art has its version of arrogance and incompetence.

On the upshot, at least he was asking for advice.

[dre]

For the sake or argument, lets say every KF guy is a total
f u c k t a r d. All of them, each and every one.

Now let's take a low estimate, and say 75% of all BJJ'ers are FT's.

That would mean that there are still a lot more BJJ FT's than KF FT's.

I know you'll say "there are nice BJJ'ers out there, they wallow in humility, and bow before all". I don't belive it though. They think they're so hot, and no one's going to tell them different. BJJ'ers are loud , obnoxious people by all accounts. Period.

They know it all, and they feel like telling you about it.

They have a 99% FT rate, the other 1% , being in Denial.

[Merryprankster]

Hey, whatever floats your boat man. Run with it.

I know CMA'ers that believe in their system as the one true religion and BJJ'ers that think that 90% of fights go to the ground.

I smile and nod. Watcha gonna do?

[Gabriel]

Wasn't that a mod you were quoting MP?


I thought they knew everything! :D

[dre]

For one, I've never seen a fight go to the ground in a Fencing tournament.

Thats an interesting though, groundfightig with swords. . .

"I smile and nod. Watcha gonna do?"

Nothing I geuss. That dosen't keep me from getting nicely ****ed off though.

[Cableguy]

Our Tai Chi club does quite well against the grapplers and any other MMA practitioners.

Our breathing techniques alone are usually enough to wear out any grappler as long as we don't let our limbs get caught.

[Brad Souders]

I think this board has some of the best MA talk on the net. Hell even for a "gay dry humper" i enjoy the conversation.

[SifuAbel]

In some ways I am on the fence on this issue. On the one hand you do have alot of wannabe or neverwas CMA players bringing really stupid techniques to the table. On the other hand you have the same amount of Grapple players that can't see beyond their system either. So if something is inovative they don't see it working in their paradigm(this is pronounced pa-ra-dime, not pa-ra-dig-um).

I, for one, am really sick and tired of reading the stupid dim mak and neck strike posts. CMA students please STOP mentioning this. There is so much more about CMA that can't be said because it has to wade through all this drivel. Most striking Kung fu is about controling and maintaining a perimeter. Lets talk about that instead.

The other thing that kills me here is exactly WHY they give a **** at all. The whole thread was a giant self patting on the back. If we are so lowly then why are they giving it a second thought. And, before you answer, keep in mind the thread was filled with only a handfull of people. It was, for the most part the rant of just a few.

I totally agreee on the magazine statement. Lately the magazines have been on a monk fetish. You see the technique articles here and there. Few and far between. And sometimes they aren't any good. Which brings me to this next comment. The magazines are seemingly trying to keep chinese martial arts very, for lack of a better word, Chinese. The non asian features are only token in comparison. There are so few non asian CMA players in this country? Not to knock the chinese at all. This is where the our arts came from. But, I think at this point it has grown larger than one country or one people.

[Merryprankster]

SifuAbel:


Most striking Kung fu is about controling and maintaining a perimeter. Lets talk about that instead.

Brilliant observation w/regards to fight strategy here.

Stop being reasonable and making sense, ******!!!. :D

[DelicateSound]

SA - Completely agree. The "Chin Na" and "Neck Strike" thing seems to be the CMA dummy's stock responce to the BJJ dummy's stock "I'd just go for the double leg..."


At the end of the day, it's just dumb CMA people VS dumb BJJ people on that article.


Anyone with a modicum of sense knows that it's not ever that simple, and that style-style arguments are futile. It's all to do with the individual.





controlling and maintaining a perimeter. Lets talk about that instead.

Exactly. Conceptual :)


People on either side who say "You can't defend against ____" p!ss me off. Whwther it's a BJJ takcle or a Kung Fu pressure point KO. It doesn't work like that. A "neck strike" might not bother Ryu, but might have MPS crying like a girl...... :D





Man this board is WAY above the level of CyberKwoon :p

[scotty1]

Dre, your attitude is a barrier to learning, you are basically prejudiced against anyone who studies BJJ - do you believe in racism/sexism/stereotyping?

If you don't, why are you applying the same logic to BJJers?

And some of the people on Cyberkwoon are worthy of taking the ****.

Hmmm, lets see, takedown defense: - Donkey kick to the face. (kicking with both feet out of a hand-stand).

Y'know, it might just work...

The guys on that thread were taking the **** out of the Cyberkwoon guys. Not us.

In fact one of them stated that KFO was no fun anymore because we had been 'educated' by Merry.

Not 'converted'- if their problem was with Kungfu itself then they would be here in OUR face. But they recognise that although most of the people on this board do Kungfu we are aware of the dangers of grappling and do address them. So they have no problem with us. Because most of us, although we do something different, respect their art.

Y'see, there is no point coming on here and talking crap, becuase on here (most) people would say:

"Last year called, wants its thread back.
I am well aware of the danger that grappling presents and I have trained or plan to train regularly with grapplers and practiced my takedown defense/groundfighting, what you are saying is nothing new to me."

On Cyberkwoon they go:

"Grappling is not a problem to me, I will simply pull a handstand and kick you in the face, or (my favourite) drop to my knees and punch you hard in the nose."

That is the attitude that they have a problem with.

WARNING: TINPOT PSYCHOLOGY COMING UP:

Everyone wants respect for their art. Everyone desires (not needs) respect for what they do.

Kungfu men want grapplers to say "hey, what you're doing is cool, I need to figure some way of taking care of you with what i do"

and grapplers want kungfu men to say "I think what you're doing looks pretty dangerous, so I better figure out some defense for that."

On KFO, we have done that, we have acknowledged grappling's threat to us and taken measures to nullify it as much as we can. So the grapplers are happy, what they do has been acknowledged and respected.

On CK, the guys on there are like "grappling sucks! no way they could beat me or take me down!" so the grapplers are p!ssed that their art gets no respect for being "good" and go on there and try to make their point.

Does anybody see what I'm rattling on about?

Sorry about this post...

:)

[DelicateSound]

Are you referring to my onrunning comment made less than 5 minutes ago on this thread of:


Man this board is WAY above the level of CyberKwoon

:p :D Thanks for elaborating for me...

Of course I'm in agreement. It's true. MPS and Ryu have actually brought a lot of sense to this board. I'd give myself credit as a Judo guy but no-one would recognise it..... :mad: :p



:D

[Merryprankster]

Neck strikes typically don't faze me.

However, when people start making fun of my big ears and Neanderthal like brow ridge (not a joke) I usually get my feelings hurt and that takes all the p!ss right out of me...

Scotty, At the risk of trumpeting my own horn, I think you'll find it thus:

CMA'ers are tired of chest thumping grapplers/MMAers who insist on 'proving' things in the ring--tough guy posturing.

MMA'ers/grapplers are tired of CMA elitism and snobbery.

They are both forms of arrogance, of course.

[DelicateSound]

big ears

Anti-Tackle Handles?

[Merryprankster]

Something like that :)

Here are a couple of pictures of my Cro-Magnon Skull:

I'm the guy on bottom with the receding hairline (http://www.lastlight.com/copa2002/Images/DSCN4882.jpg)

Same thing here :) (http://www.lastlight.com/copa2002/Images/DSCN4886.jpg)

And yet again-- I didn't realize how much hair I've lost, D@mnit!! (http://www.lastlight.com/copa2002/Images/DSCN4706.jpg)

[chingei]

Originally posted by Cableguy
Our Tai Chi club does quite well against the grapplers and any other MMA practitioners.

Our breathing techniques alone are usually enough to wear out any grappler as long as we don't let our limbs get caught.

picture a tai chi club in a tree eating garlic

[scotty1]

Man, looking at those pictures I totally don't understand BJJ.

You're lying on your back with your legs in the air yeah? That's "the Guard" right? So in that first picture, isn't the guy on the top the one with the advantage? He can hit you, grab your leg, break your knee, stand up etc. You can kick him in the face, but he's the one with mobility.

I don't understand what you're trying to accomplish on your back with your legs round the guy.:) I'm not being funny either, I can't see what the goal of that position is.

A brief run down of what the hell is going on in those pics would be cool.

Note: I'm not baggin on BJJ, just trying to understand it.

[Merryprankster]

In the first pic, I have hold of both his arms and my feet are in his hips. My shins are pressing outwards on his arms near the elbow and I am pulling his arms in. This immobilizes his arms for one, and allows me to actually control his movements very effectively. If he just tries to stand up, he’s going to wind up on his back. If he tries to crush me forward, he’ll wind up on his back. Since I have control of his arms, he can’t punch me. He’s actually controlled.

In the second picture, I have my left foot in his hip and my right foot is solidly in his bicep. By pulling tight on his arm and maintaining even pressure with my right foot, I can manipulate his balance and posture very easily—as though he were a puppet on a string. Same issue as above.

In the third picture, I was armbarring the guy, and he had a standard defense in to keep me from extending the arm.

[scotty1]

Cool. So once he's controllable, what do you do with him?
How do you end up in a victorious position from the guard?
Can you 'win' from the guard?
How can he beat you when you've pulled guard, what does he have to do?

Sorry for all the questions, but I have no idea what BJJ even looks like. Comes from coming from England I guess. BJJ is pretty much only available in big cities.

[Merryprankster]

From the guard, you can sweep the opponent to come up on top.

You can also submit the opponent with a variety of locks and chokes.

In rare instances, you can take somebody's back from the guard.

So yes, you can win from the guard.

In order to beat me, he needs to create an opening for a leg lock or pass my guard (get by my legs) so he can apply a submission. Certain submissions can be done from inside the guard, but these are generally considered low percentage, unless you are freakishly strong/talented (Mark Kerr's neck-crank, for instance). Going for an upper body submission from inside the guard generally results in getting swept or submitted yourself. It's hard to get proper leverage on the submission without leaving your balance open to easy manipulation.

[scotty1]

Right. Thanks for explaining, but I think its the type of thing that really needs to be seen/experienced to be understood!

[old jong]

You say you look nehandertal?...I would rather say "australopithecus"...;) :D
Nice pics but you should pick on guys your own size! ;) I have to say, BJJ looks like fun.Happy training!:)

[scotty1]

"I have to say, BJJ looks like fun"

Yeah it does.

Flame away.:)

[Merryprankster]

The other guy in the white gi is one of the top purples in the nation. The dude in the blue gi is heavier than me :)

And it IS fun :)

[Polaris]

Originally posted by scotty1

I don't understand what you're trying to accomplish on your back with your legs round the guy.:) I'm not being funny either, I can't see what the goal of that position is.


Another obvious answer is it's much better to have
the guard than to be mounted, cross bodied, have knee to the
stomach, etc.

[old jong]

I look at the second pic and I feel you could be going for a triangle...I'm I right?
The third seems to me like a armbar occasion....I try to understand this style and it,s possibility's.

[Crimson Phoenix]

OK...I will sound very uneducated, and I'm not intending a flame war about something I don't know...
Here's my point: I know NO grappling other than the intuitive one...there is something I do not quite get...when I roll with guys doing grappling (it does not happen that often, but I don't want to die a complete idiot heheheh), I'm quite fascinated by the principles and techniques involved. You get tapped out and don't even realize how it happened (at least I do hehehe). But I have problems with grappling's "statut quo" situations, like being in the guard...why? because for me there are no moves I wouldn't try in a fight...let me explain...I sometimes happened to end up in the position described by the first two pics...indeed, it's great, very frustrating, you can't move and hit...BUT here comes the BUT: I managed to go out of that quite often by just grabbing the guys balls, or even showing I coul bite them...don't ewwwwww me or whatever: when I fight, I try everything...I once got out of a bear hug by biting the guy's throat and ears...I don't care, when I fight I can bite and scratch...here's my point: when I pressed his balls or went to bite them, he pushed me back off violently and gave me a puzzled look like "you're crazy" or "you're gay" or whatever...I had no other options in mind (since I don't know shi@t aboud elbow evades other than what Ralek describes hehehehehe or whatever), I was like a trapped animal and did what I could: find a sensitive target I could reach...he told me "are you crazy?? you just can't do that!!"...EXCUSE ME? Yeah, maybe in a tournament I can't, but in a fight I'm sorry, I'm going for what I can, even if it involves far-from-glorious things like hair or ear-pulling, scratching, biting. I played with tha trying to pull it off as often as I could, until the guy said he wouldn't roll with me anymore, with a shocked expression...
My overall point is this: there is no safe position on the ground either...the guard might be safe, when you rule out things like biting the nads and crushing them, or pulling the ears, or stupid things like that that are not so stupid and overlooked too often...but in my attempts, even if I couldn't always pull the move, I nevertheless was able to pull such a sucker stuff too often for comfort...
Grapplers need to realize that in a fight they are as much exposed to the danger of a sucker technique than we are as CMA practicionners exposed to the danger of going to the ground and being toyed with there. I guess as many of them think they are safe here as we do think we won't be taken down...and we're both wrong...
A fight is always dangerous, a street fight, that is, and even a killer in the ring can be taken by surprise and go down...I know, I know, it's a big ass stereotype we heard like 1000000000 times.
But still, we should always remember it, whether we are CMA, grapplers, MMA...
in a fight, nothing makes you 100% safe.

I wanted to add a more personal contribution to that topic. I didn't intended it to start a flame war (as most of you understood, since there is no war hehehehehe), but rather as the consequence of a big "man, this is so stupid, I have to share it with the KFO guys" kind of reaction. I'm kind of disapointed that the thread I started and got the most responses to ever was the only grappling thread I ever dared, but hey, that's life
:D
Take care, my friends, and thanks for your reactions!!

[guohuen]

MerryPrankster, exellant form! Crimson Phoenix, you sound like a natural grappler. A little training and you can really frustrate people. Sounds like you keep a clear head and look for targets of opportunity. I think that's 90per cent of the battle.

[old jong]

The best defense in that case is...Start kissing him on the mouth! :eek: He will let you go for sure just for the sake of his reputation! ;) :D

[guohuen]

ROTFLMAO!:D That sounds like it might actualy work, but then you would have to gargle with lighter fluid.:p

[rogue]

Pheonix, if the grappler was just "rolling" with you it was a friendly sparring match. Biting, clawing, and head butts are also in many grapplers arsenals and are very natural for them to execute. Sounds like your friend was having fun but you may have paniced and gone further than what was agreed to. If it was no holds barred he may have done the same to you and since he had control probably more effectivly too.

[fa_jing]

To crimson Phoenix: I started a thread a long time ago that dealt with precisely this issue, and some very knowledgeable people gave some answers. Incidentally, it was also the most popular thread I ever started, too. The name was "Does the guard/mount expose the groin," or something like that.

-FJ

[fa_jing]

Shucks, I think it's been purged out already. The gist of the response was, if you have correct position the groin is not really exposed. Just from playing around, though, I think the greatest opportunities for a groin grab is when you and your opponent have not yet settled into a steady postion.

-FJ

[Crimson Phoenix]

Rogue, I agree and at the same time I disagree...
I doubt a grappler will try that on me, because I see these techniques like the last thing you can think of to retaliate (I'm the type to try anything to retaliate, I just can't stay there being toyed with whithout trying anything). I mean that a grappler who is in control won't attempt these, he'll just do what he is trained to do. Since I'm not a grappler myself, I just won't try to grapple him, and even if I tried, I would surely not put him in danger so easily, so he wouldn't have to revert to such techniques. I believe that when you're in control, like he was, you won't use such stuffs, maybe because your mind is not in the right mode.
Of course, all the tricks I mentionned are at the reach of anyone, and no serious streetfighter will overlook them...but truly, I have seen few people even attempt them...it's not that it's exceptionnal or even hard to do, I am quite convinced it stems more from a kind of mental conditioning like "this is bad", something engraved in our minds...I am really not sure it's so natural for them. I didn't mention that when I tried it, it was on a prompt from the guy who said "in this position, there's no way you can escape if you don't know the proper evade"...I didn't know ithe proper evade by then and still don't, and it felt very frustrating to be controlled like that, and being told there was no way out...I just couldn't believe it, I'm a stubborn, I don't believe in stuffs like "it works all the time" or "you can't escape that"...I didn't panic, I just wanted to prove him wrong...so I tried what I could, struggling, and naturally it came to what I described...my point is that: he seemed really convinced there was NO mean for me to get out...why? Because as many said here in the past "we fight like we train"...and the guy, however good he was, never trained for such an option...it wasn't in his mental library...I hardly imagine any BJJ school teaching something like "watch out, someone could attempt to squeeze your groin here". Instead, they'll teach what escape or set-up can be attempted from there. Kung fu guys make for the whole majority the mistake of thinking they'll never go to the ground (I make that mistake inconsciously all the time, I know), but I just wanted to point out that a similar mistake is made by grapplers: their training is orthodox too, so most of the time they are not expecting such a retaliation, in other words they are convinced that when "in the guard" they are safe, just like we CMA think we are safe when standing.
Of course it was a friendly roll, actually it wasn't really a roll, I just told him: show me what the ground feels like. We didn't start standing, he didn't have to take me down, or clinch under my punches, I played the dummy, just to feel how it's like to be wrestled by a grappler. There were no conventions, I played the dummy until he told me "there is NO mean you can escape", which is the biggest mistake of ANY MA: thinking something is for sure. So I did all I could to show him nothing is for sure.

Fa jing, interesting, I haven't read it...anyway, I don't want to affirm anything since I know jack about grappling...I just wanted to share some experiences to open some more discussions...
Thanks for telling me though, I'll look in the archives to enlighten myself
:D

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
SifuAbel:



Brilliant observation w/regards to fight strategy here.

Stop being reasonable and making sense, ******!!!. :D



LOL! Well, thats what you get when people stop throwing soda cans at the monkey cage. When this place stops being a put down contest, you actually get something worthwhile.

Knee locks were the first thing that came to mind in your pics. But probably not the kind you would do. Also the first thing on my mind as an away from 0 fighter(as opposed to close to 0 grappling) is how to get away so I can deliver a blow.( please no blow jokes).

Preemptively(sp?) I would try not to get in that position in the first place. Itteruption and collision would be my weapons of choice. Not let the opponenet sneak in close while striking and never exposing my flank for a double leg. Of course, your pics were about pure grappling. Stratagies change when the rules are different.

[Braden]

What I would do in those situations:

Pic 1: Scream like a baby, thrashing my legs wildly.

Pic 2: Apologize profusely and beg for him to get off me.

Pic 3: Pretend to have a broken leg, in hopes he would leave alone out of sympathy or percieved victory.

[Merryprankster]

SifuAbel--

That's precisely correct, IMO. The pics are of a BJJ match and the rules don't facilitate standing up and backing out of my guard, and stomping the crap out of me :)

I will say that leg locks are feasible--but if I'm controlling your movment/arms it's hard to attain them. But that's part of it, isn't it--who does what they do better than the other guy, before the other guy does it :)

Crimson Phoenix--what Rogue is trying to say is quite valid--there was an expectation that you would not try those techniques, and consequently, they were completely unexpected. Note that this can work to your advantage on the street, but also, do hope that your friend would be paying attention to those possibilities as well--we ALL train under rules for safety, be they pulled groin shots, or not dropping your opponent on his head. We hope and trust that in real life, we will be flexible and cognizant that these rules no longer apply.

It is true that groin grabs and biting change the nature of the game, and I will admit that. However, there is another reality of infighting--you're going to take some damage. The trick is to capitalize on openings and deal decisive damage. A groin shot or a bite is an opening--rarely decisive in and of itself. I would also point out that if you were grabbing his nuts then you were NOT in the position shown in the first two pics. I am clearly controlling both his arms. In fact, gripfighting is integral to groundfighting, and its purpose is to stifle such attacks.

Again, to me, this falls under the "useful tricks" category--something that is certainly helpful, but no substitute for proper training.

Old Jong--with a slight adjustment of the shin in biceps position, I could shoot for the triangle--but I prefer to go for the foot in bicep, foot on hip position shown in the second picture, from the position in the first. The second picture, as you surmised, opens up the triangle--it also opens up about 5 or 6 different sweeps for me, that I love. But note: HIS left knee is up and on the back of my right leg. IF I were to shoot for the triangle, then that knee would block my ability to shoot my hips up. This prevents the triangle. I'd rather he be extended forward somewhat, with his upper body away from his hips, or get my right hips on the inside of knees. This opens up the triangle.

As it was, he got swept instead.

[old jong]

Thanks for the explainations Merry! I missed this detail in the pics! :)

[scotty1]

All this talk of grappling really makes me want to spar with groundfighting involved. No opportunities unfortunately.

This is the problem with sport kickboxing. Although we do address the ground briefly, no opportunity for any real free fighting down there. Even if there was, no-one in the class would know what they were doing anyway.

Ah well, opportunities will arise I'm sure.

[omegapoint]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Neck strikes typically don't faze me.

CMA'ers are tired of chest thumping grapplers/MMAers who insist on 'proving' things in the ring--tough guy posturing.

MMA'ers/grapplers are tired of CMA elitism and snobbery.

They are both forms of arrogance, of course.

You can only argue for or against what you know about. CMAs have been putting down the non CMAs since forever. Come- uppance and Karma can be a b I t C h! Hell, karate is still not respected by the MMAs players and CMAs stylists!

If you've never fought in a real fight on the street, then you should just shut your trap about fighting for real in general. IMVHO.

I've done traditional arts and GJJ for many years now, and I can tell you that it really is the stylist and not the style in many instances. BTW, how many NHB, K1, Muay Thai or San Shou guys are undefeated champs? Think about it....