Protecting the Knees [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

zen_celt

09-29-2001, 08:15 PM

Horse Stance(when done correctly), squats(keep toes pointed forward), side ways leg raises(lie on the ground on your side and raise your top leg) this works your outer thigh. Also, lie on the ground with your top leg bent at a 90 degree angle so that it is off of your bottom leg and then raise the bottom leg this works the inner thigh. If you can, buy some ankle weights and use those for these exercises and buy a speed trainer(same thing but for the thigh) that you can wear while you walk. There are other exercises you can do but these are some of the more common ones. If you have bad knees, I suggest you see a doctor to figure what is wrong with them and also start going to a gym where you can do more exercises than the ones I mentioned. Hope this helps.
-Z

ged

09-30-2001, 03:47 AM

why do toes have to be pointed forward in squats?

both my di siheng (for bodyweight squats) and some weightlifting coach at my gym tell me to keep my toes pointed slightly outwards, in the same alignment as your legs.

zen_celt

09-30-2001, 04:47 AM

It keeps the knees in proper alignment to keep them from getting hurt and to work the thighs. I say straight simply because it works best for me, but just make sure that you legs are properly aligned. There should be no pain in the knees and your thighs should burn when you do them.
-ZC

"The thorn *****s only those who would harm the rose."

Kram1

09-30-2001, 06:26 AM

B'cause my knees are so bad (surgury, arthritis) I am REALLY interested in what is the right answer to this question. My karate sensei insisted that the toes be pointed straight forward. My old KF sifu had me point out slightly. The old way seemed to align w/ the axis of my knee, the karate way seemed to put more stress on the inside hinge of the knee (medial meniscus).

Anyone? Everyone?

And So It Goes...

ged

09-30-2001, 06:57 AM

i think the straight toes way definitely puts more stress on legs and knees. but is it good stress? toes outward seems more.... natural

Robinf

09-30-2001, 02:56 PM

I've found that strength training helps the knees. Along with squats, here are a couple of other exercises:

lie in the floor, knees bent, feet flat on floor (you can come up on your elbows if you want), straighten one leg and lift only so that is comes to your other knee and go back down (without hitting the floor).

lie sideways on the floor, lift your top leg up and down

lie sideways on the floor, bend the top leg over the bottom leg (so the foot is in front), lift the bottom leg up and down (don't hit the floor)

lean against a wall, throw out a back kick, side kick, front kick--using tension and hold out.

These are all just body weight.

Surrender yourself to nature and be all that you are.

Kumkuat

09-30-2001, 03:40 PM

About if the feet should be straight or not. Sit on a high place and let your feet hang. See where the feet point to that's how you're feet is suppose to line up. Just make sure your knees are always above your feet, and the knees never extend past your toe.

Ford Prefect

09-30-2001, 07:24 PM

http://www.amerross.com

Look for the Grappler's Toolbox.

Kram1

10-02-2001, 02:02 AM

ZenC: So, what IS the correct way to horse stance?

Robin: Thanks for the info . One of those was included in the set my Russian PT guy gave me!

KQ: Good idea! I think by this test that most plp will end up pointing out.

Ford: I tried the site you mentioned, but I think I'll wait on paying the $369 for the tapes. I did see a post in the forum however, that implied that slightly pointed out was correct.

Anyone else?

Mark

And So It Goes...

zen_celt

10-02-2001, 06:01 AM

Kram1: I would say, toes pointed forward(perhaps a very tiny bit outward if your knees hurt). The best way to judge if it's correct is to hold it for a while and wait to see if your thighs burn when that happens, your knees shouldn't hurt(at least not before the thighs do). Hope that helps.
-ZC

"The thorn *****s only those who would harm the rose."

Kram1

10-02-2001, 04:22 PM

Zen, I'll give it a try, but my knees ALWAYS hurt, it just a matter of degree! I'm kinda used to it now :eek:

Mark

And So It Goes...

AmerROSS

10-02-2001, 04:45 PM

Kram, the Grappler's Toolbox is only $40.

Ford Prefect

10-02-2001, 06:12 PM

Yeah, the trilogy of tapes is only $99.95. To make it easier for the browsing impaired: ;)

http://www.amerross.com/toolbox.html

Kram1

10-02-2001, 09:58 PM

Sorry, I mistook the whole package price for that one one of its components

Mark

And So It Goes...

Kram1

10-03-2001, 12:03 AM

SO, anyone else w/ opinions on knee alignment, or advice for strengthening the knees?

And So It Goes...

zen_celt

10-03-2001, 03:58 AM

Kram1- I understand what you're saying about bad knees. I've posted before about the bad shape mine are in. All I can say is good luck, keep up the strengthening and invest in MANY aleve and accupuncture. :D
-ZC

"The thorn *****s only those who would harm the rose."

Aramus

10-03-2001, 05:39 AM

In high school, the physical trainer suggested using a mini-tramp to strengthen the knees. He had a few people who fell victim to vicious knee injuries use it and go back up to full strength.

The exercises they did were two legged hops, one, alternating, heighth, control, and balance.

But that would mean you would have to spend $40 or so. :)

Kram1

10-03-2001, 05:57 AM

Man, be very careful how you use those NSAI's ( Non-Steroid Anti-Inflamitories) The problem with ALL of them, regardless of the other side effects ( liver damage etc.) is that they all work by REDUCING the bloodflow to the affected area. This is great for reducing inflamation and its associated pain, but can you see the problem? Long term reduced blood flow to many areas is bad. Especially to areas such as the meniscus which, as you get older gets less and less blood flow to begin with. Sure, take them to reduce swelling after an injury. But not while exerting yourself. They can lead to an increased risk of injury to the very areas you are trying to help. Think about it. Healthy tissue requires an adequate blood supply for many reasons. What effect will reducing that supply have on critical areas, when you are stressing them the most (ie sparring, exercising, etc.)?
I took large doses of physician proscribed Motrin (800mg)for about a year and a half, after a car wreck injured my back. Result? doubled my chloresterol level (98, the year before, 221 a year after stopping), torn medial menscus tears in both knees, and arthritis in many of my joints. Other factors? Sure probably. But hey, I'll let you be the next Guinea Pig :D

Sorry to rant, but this was a subject I felt strongly about.

MArk

And So It Goes.

IronFist

10-03-2001, 08:13 AM

In squats, the knees should follow the path of the feet. Your feet don't necessarily have ot be facing directly forward. Look at how powerlifters squat, a lot of them use a wide stance with toes pointed out a bit.

Just keep your knees in line with your feet and you'll be fine.

Also, generally speaking the knees shouldn't extend ****her forward than the feet as you go down.

Good luck,
Iron

Ford Prefect

10-03-2001, 04:19 PM

Box squatting is a great alternative to regular squatting as well. http://www.westsidebarbell.com for more details. They have guys who squat over 1,000 lbs and they rarely have injuries in the club.

red_fists

01-23-2002, 04:03 AM

Hi.

I was wondering if some of you out there have some advise for the following Condition.

My Knees got stronger muscles on the inside, and therefor my knees tend to fall inward.

Any good exercises for strengthening the outside muscles of the Knee.

I am booked with a Physiothreapist aswell, but was wondering if there are Qi-Gong or other recognised exercises for this condition.

I believe it is fairly common among Sports people and MA Practicioners.

Thanks, in advance.

Galadriel

01-23-2002, 07:34 AM

Hi red_fists,

I wrote a really long reply, explaining all these complicated exercises the physio gave to me, only to realise, that my knees were the otherway around ;-)

Galadriel

Ford Prefect

01-23-2002, 10:31 AM

Get a light stretch band (available at www.jumpstretch.com), sit in a chair, and place your legs inside the band. These things are basically just big rubber bands. You might need to fold the band once or twice to tighten up the slack. Move the band up your legs, so that it is right below the knee. With your feet staying planted at about shoulder-width apart, rotate your knees outward (like attempting to do a split) and then bring your legs back together. repeat...etc.

This is what many powerlifting gyms use to strengthen peoples knees, so they don't bend in when squatting heavy weights. If it helped these guys squat 1,000 lbs, then it should help you as well.

red_fists

01-23-2002, 02:39 PM

Originally posted by Galadriel
[I wrote a really long reply, explaining all these complicated exercises the physio gave to me, only to realise, that my knees were the otherway around ;-)

Can I ask you to send them anyway.

It will give me an idea on how to deal with it the reverse way.

Thanks.

fa_jing

01-24-2002, 03:13 PM

I, too, have the inner muscles more developed. However, this is on purpose. I was told to develop the inner knee (actually one head of the quadraceps) muscles to combat my Patellar Tracking Dysfunction. This is a condition where the muscles and tendons on the OUTSIDE are too tight, so when you bend your knees past a certain point, the kneecap floats to the outside and is off its track. I am naturally knock-kneed, so the knees curve in. This is bone structure, not an acquired condition. The exercise to develop the INNER quadraceps muscle is to do knee extensions, on the machine, only through the last 30 degrees of the motion from straight. So, I assume that to train the OUTER muscles to support the knee you would do the other 60 degrees of motion, stopping before you straighten out too much. An example: Low horse stance.
Make sense??
-FJ

red_fists

01-24-2002, 04:16 PM

Hi Fa-Jing.

Thanks, for the Info, yes it makes sense.

I am also scheduled to see a physio-threapist soon, and see what he can offer.

Seeya.

Galadriel

01-25-2002, 03:39 AM

Hi guys,
Basically I have the same problem as fa-jing, so these exercises help to stretch the outer muscles and tendons so the knee cap doesn't get pulled to the outside.
I hope I explained those exercises alright and you kinda know what I'm trying to explain ;-)

This is what my physio told me to do:
Ok, here it goes..

These are exercises for the left leg

Lie on your back and put your right leg at an angle with the foot on the ground.
Point your left foot to the outside and slowly lift it up to about 30 degrees, and slowly down again

Stand on a step or something with your left foot and have it pointing slighly outward, your right leg should not touch the ground. Now slowly bend your left knee and then straighten it again. Go down as far as possible without your knee hurting.

Stand with your left side to a wall. Put your right foot next to your left but from the other side, so its wall, right foot, left foot.
Put your left hand on the wall and push outward and push your left hip forwards and in a right direction.

I also got one of those stretchy bands (haven't got a clue what they are called), one end I tied to a chair the other end went around my left foot.
So if you stand next to the chair with your right side, lift your left leg diagonally upwards, you should feel a strech on the outerside of your upper leg.

The last exercise involves a pillow and me kneeling on the floor, but I havent got a clue how to explain that one ;-)

They should be done about 3 times a day, about 20 times each.

Galadriel

fa_jing

01-25-2002, 01:43 PM

Depending on how bad your knees are, you may also use the lotus or half-lotus pose to stretch the outside of the knee. The pose is actually designed to strech your hips, so make sure you don't put too much pressure on your knees as this can cause damage. To stretch the inside of the knee, the pose is called "Turtle Pose" and is like kneeling, except you spread your knees out as wide as possible and your toes meet behind you. Try to put your butt on the floor (I can't). Again, be careful with your knees.
-FJ

Sleemie

06-17-2002, 11:51 AM

I'm just beginning my Kung Fu lessons and I'm concerned about my knees holding up. I'm one of those people who believes practicing Kung Fu is practically a panacea and actually cures all kinds of ills, and I believe practicing Kung Fu will actually strengthen my knees in the long run. However, right now I'm concerned about them holding up to the riggers of the initial training because they do have a tendency to get sore, particularly my left knee has a sharp pain in the front of it when I move certain ways, such as walking down steps or running and getting in to my stances. It's a sporadic thing and doesn't happen every time I do these things, and the pain doesn't last beyond that moment of the twinge. This knee has been doing this for a number of years. I don't want to get it checked out at the doctor because I don't want to be told I need surgery and then be incapacited from work and my Kung Fu. It hasn't really gotten worse over the years, so I figured it's safe to let it slide until it get's worse. They haven't gotten much exercise over the years....I do weights but only for the upper body, and have pretty much gotten no exercise for my lower body in years.

Are there any good exercises/precautions to take to help strengthen my knees and prevent injury?

Thanx.

dragontounge2

06-17-2002, 12:30 PM

1. accupuncture
2. ligement dit da jow
3. massage
4. becareful

PLCrane

06-18-2002, 06:06 AM

Any time you bend a weighted knee, make sure your knee/thigh is pointing in the same direction as your foot. This will keep the knee bending in only one direction. Anything else is equivalent to swinging on a door and bending its hinges. Also, if you look down at that knee, you should be able to see your toes - if you let the knee go in front of the toes, it puts a lot of strain on the tendon.

Fu-Pow

06-18-2002, 09:15 AM

Good advice from PLCrane. As my Sifu always says " The knees follow the toes."

Your knee joint is basically a hinge joint so it has little room to to twist. Be sure you have good alignment and there is not added stress on your knees.

I might also add that sometimes I get the same problem that you do. And as PLCrance stated its when your knee sits all the way over the end of your foot. Don't let your knee go past the lower part of the ankle. As my other Sifu says "You should be able to see your toes."

Good luck and becareful. There is a Chinese proverb that says
" The knees are like tofu."

No_Know

06-26-2002, 07:04 AM

There is an exercise people do after the horse-riding stance. Feet and knees together. And knees bent, hands on knees. Side, back, side, forward, make circles. A few clock hands turning-wise. And a few counter-clock hand turning-wise. Perhaps doing this exercise before stances or running or periodically would help. Ask one of your instructors. Tell them the situation and for what you are looking.

shaolin kungfu

08-11-2003, 01:03 AM

Stupid ass knees, always poppin out of place and shlt, makin me miss practice. :mad::mad:

I'd chop it off if i didn't use it so d@mn much.:mad:

Crouchtiger

10-20-2004, 07:18 AM

Due to a car accident, I had a torm meniscus like 2 years ago, got it scoped, also got a mri of my other knee, said it had a thinning meniscus. Funny thing is, i did not like the ways my knees felt, went to another doc, he told me that my musles around my knee cap were week, that caused the inflamation, got anti inflamitories and Physical Therapy. Maybe about a year after the initial injury, recovering from surgery, i was back to where I was activity wise, and never really had any pain that stopped me from doing anything.

Anyway, the last 2 weeks, my knees have been acting up. I just get a burning feeling in them. Mostly on the inside of my knees, but a little bit on the outside. It is about the same feeling in both knees. Acts up especially if I do something, I feel it the next day. I am just puzzled why out of the blue it is acting up. I always so some weights in the gym, I try to keep the muscles around them strong. I have not been doing martial arts for a while (actually did tai chi after my accident and really helped), but I wanted to get back into it. Actually a class is starting up in like 2 weeks. This has me concerned.

Any advise, please, on what I should do to feel better? What I can also do to keep my knees healthy (thinking of the long run)?
Well I think they are inflamed. I have no sharp pains, and I really dont hear any clicking noises.

Oh the style I was going to take was praying mantis, but the teacher also teaches internal stuff, said it would help me.

Thank you.

Meat Shake

10-20-2004, 08:33 AM

The stancework would help you quite a bit Im sure... The movements and stretching would most likely help bloodflow as well... But Im not a doctor and cant really diagnose the problem by your description...
Sorry I cant be of more help, but if it doesnt feel like anything too serious give the internal a try for a bit and see where it gets you.

mickey

10-20-2004, 07:20 PM

Greetings,

I am a strong advocate for the taking of MSM. Great for all connective tissues. If your water consumption is low try increasing it-- that came to me as I read your post (I don't know why nor do I question those things when they come to me). Also more green vegetables. (Rereading my response I get: inflamation due to toxicity-- flush out your system).

With exercise, strengthen your hamstrings. They are often overlooked when it comes to knee stabilization.

If Tai Chi has worked for you, stick with it. As you get better, try to get lower.

Get healthy,

mickey

Ego_Extrodinaire

10-22-2004, 04:41 AM

empathising and really wish you well on it. Msm is not by any means a "natural " soloution, nor something I personally advocate but it is definately effective and will no doubt help you out. Alternatively, up your proteins and respective sulfur intake from those proteins, do more fluids of varying ph , some wet fibres and stretch often.

Cant really think of why your problem has reflared after so long, but I don't really know how you've been treating yourself recently either. Medititations and internal styles etc will always be good to get you moving in a relaxed and deliberate free manner. Good advice from the others really.

Be sure and let us know what you did on both accounts and how you pull up.

cheers

EE

Crouchtiger

10-23-2004, 08:19 PM

Thanks for the advise.

I laid of them a little the last few days, they have not been too bad today.

I took my pain free the last few days, it has msn, conjointin, and glosimine. I also wore one of those rubber type of things that just slides up your knees, when i worked out last.

You know, i dont think i been drinking enough water lately, and i been on the go a lot, and been eating fast foods this week. I hope that is it, i will take care of that.

It is really the weirdest thing. I do a lot of leg extensions in the gym and leg curls in the gym. I just try to keep my muscles around my knees strong so i wont have any problems.

Now this recent flare up is so strange. I dont think I been doing anything different, or doing any more activities than usual.

Well what would be good exercises I should consider to do for knee health?

Thanks guys, I will keep you posted, but i hope that they are recovering.

Ego_Extrodinaire

10-23-2004, 08:27 PM

monkey stances for a start. ( elbows pressing inner thighs outward feet flat on ground ) ......but before I lost mobility in my lower extremities, I found that when I did some good squat sets, shook it / stretched out through my ankles mid set, put in some calf raises and stretched those out through my my hips ( via splits or hip "pull out from limb " style stretches, I always felt more fluid???

we appreciate your feedback

cheers maer.

Ps:- cojointen makes me physically ill and just a lil sad!!

Chief Fox

10-27-2004, 03:51 PM

If I were you, I would replace those leg extensions and leg curls with squats. Contrary to popular belief the squat is actually good for your knees if done correctly. And the lower the better.

Think about it. The leg extension focuses on your quads, the leg curl focuses on your hamstrings. The squat hits both of those and also your calfs, hip flexors, lowerback, all the little stablilizing muscles and more.

So make squats a part of your routine and your knees will thank you.

red5angel

11-10-2004, 09:29 AM

I'm looking for some suggestions on some low impact ways to strengthen knees, especially the tendons. A Capoeiristas biggest complaint is the knees. Mine seem to be doing ok, but I'd like to cover myself by keeping them in the best shape I can.

So what would you do? How often?

norther practitioner

11-10-2004, 09:40 AM

It's not the tendons, it's the muscles around the knee you want to worry about. quads, hammies, OK, lets just say total leg strength.

IronFist

11-10-2004, 09:43 AM

Are your knees in good shape now? Barbell squats. Not smith-machine squats, not leg presses, but barbell squats. Have someone who knows how to do them teach you how. With the exception of the Olympic lifts, barbell squat is the most technically difficult lift there is so you want to make sure you're doing it right.

Vash

11-10-2004, 11:56 AM

http://www.mercola.com/2004/jul/31/fear_the_squat2.htm

http://jumpusa.com/jumpersknees.htm

As an aside, I prefer the front and Zercher squats to back squats . . . mainly since I can't back squat anymore . . .

IronFist

11-10-2004, 12:46 PM

Just don't do smith machine squats or leg presses. Curved back + leg pressing = injury (potentially), and at the least reinforces poor muscle movement.

If you're going to leg press, make sure your back is arched, or at least straight.

Ford Prefect

11-10-2004, 12:46 PM

Deep squats will help. As will knee-extensions... I know I know. isolation is generally bad. Knee extension help strengthen the musculature around the knee though which takes load off connective tissue. There's a reason why most PT's have clients do them... Look into body flow as well. I hate Sonnon's advertising and most of his products, but this is one of his gems.

Chief Fox

11-10-2004, 04:17 PM

Also, don't forget to stretch your quads and hamstrings. Tight im-balanced muscles can put a lot of pressure on the joint.

red5angel

11-10-2004, 04:26 PM

ok, so squats and stretching, no problem, I can do that. Actually I've been doing squats for some time now so I'll just stick with it and not worry about it, thanks guys!

Joe1363

03-18-2008, 11:24 PM

Hello everyone. Recently (as in the past month or so) my left knee has been feeling weak and becomes tired more easily. This doesn't seem to come from my martial arts training, but oddly enough from being a musician playing the vibraphone (http://en.woodbrass.com/images/woodbrass/VIBRAPHONE+MUSSER+M55.JPG) were I am standing on one leg for long periods of time. It doesn't really hurt, but I don't want it to get any worse. Sometimes I also feel something at the hip joint to a lesser extent. Is there anything I can do to treat this or strengthen my knee? Thank you for your suggestions and input.

dougadam

03-21-2008, 11:33 AM

I also had knee problems. And a man who spent most of his life in prison working out. Gave me some advice.

" High rep squats with no weight. "

It worked

Royal Dragon

03-24-2008, 11:52 PM

Hold horse stance too.

B-Rad

03-25-2008, 08:19 AM

See a doctor (if you can afford it). Taking medical advice from strangers on an internet forum who aren't doctors and have no idea what's really wrong with you is generally a bad idea ;)

Joe1363

03-25-2008, 10:09 PM

Yeah, I know asking strangers on the internet isn't exactly the best, but people with martial arts experience might know some things that are helpful. I've also asked my Sifu and a few other people, so I'm not just going from this.

Thanks for the suggestions.

kwaichang

03-26-2008, 04:10 AM

Studies have shown there is a corelation of Low Back pain and hip knee problems. Look it up , google it . Or see a Md and have him or her look at your knee and back KC

GunnedDownAtrocity

03-26-2008, 04:23 AM

I also had knee problems. And a man who spent most of his life in prison working out. Gave me some advice.

" High rep squats with no weight. "

It worked

these have value and will do much to keep the joint lubed up, but id do weighted full squats along with a few other full body exercise as well. doesnt have to be anything fancy .... squats, deadlifts, overhead presses, and throw in some chins, dips, and weighted ab work for good measure.

i think the general concensus is, if something hurts, make it stronger.

sanjuro_ronin

03-26-2008, 04:57 AM