External.....

[DelicateSound]

Troll Board DISCLAIMER:

"This intention of this thread is merely to benefit my own self-knowledge. It is not intended to provoke any negative reaction from any parties. I am not affiliated with any political section of any Wing Chun branch, nor do I claim to represent any persons other than myself. My position regarding the art of Wing Chun is one of somewhat limited knowledge. Therefore any errors in historical, political or traditional statements are unintentional. Any errors in terminology are also unintentional, and will be rectified if suitable noticed. Any comments made on this thread by myself should be considered as solely my own thoughts, unless otherwise stated, and therefore any feedback, positive or negative, should be directed solely at myself, unless otherwise applicable."



Is there an overemphasis in WC on internal training over external?




It [Wing Chun] does not train you to be big and strong...


Wing Chun relies on sensitivity not strength...


Sometimes I find that those who are physically strong have more difficulty learning....

[All Yip Man]


Now I feel that strength plays a huge part in being a good fighter. You see good MMA fighters and they are wery well developed in muscular size and toning. They place a HUGE importance on external fitness and strength training. WC may be "soft", but if you have power, why not use it? From what I have seen I do feel that WC really does place a LOT of importance on Qi cultivation. I'm not sure if I even believe in Qi :D

Should Wing Chun placemore emphasis on external strength. It's easy to say how internal "fajing" is superior, using Chinese terminology to somewhat "elevate" it above external strength. [External is "gangjing" by the way... :)]

Wong Shun Leung and Bruce Lee were two of Wing Chun's most acclaimed fighters, both of superior external development. Is there a lack of good strong WC fighters? Would WC benefit from fighters like BL and WSL in todays MMA environment?

Can you have both internal and external power? Is there always a drop in sensitivity?On a personal note I will keep weight training through my WC.

What do you guys think?






Just a thought. :)

[yuanfen]

Not again. zzzzzzzzzzzzzz. A delicate snorezzzzz
whatdya mean by internal and external?zzzzz
Clarification may help.

[DelicateSound]

Hilarious.

Clarification? I wrote 1/2 a side, what are you unsure about?

Although thanks for reminding me, I forgot the Disclaimer. I'll add it in a sec.

[DelicateSound]

Done! Cheers Yuanfen :)

[Alpha Dog]

i thought it was the chili. yip man said it was chi trying to move through a li of intestine. that little guy cracks me up.

[OdderMensch]

"a weak body must begin with strength training"

however sheer, brute, muscular force ("le" as my sifu calls it) can be contradictory to the relaxed, nonmuscular force ("ging") and the OVER TRAINING of strength may be harmful.

Also musscle (as well as gung fu) must be maintained, but where "gung" may increase with time, training and awareness, "le" will degrade with time (decades here, not months)

[planetwc]

Originally posted by DelicateSound

Is there an overemphasis in WC on internal training over external?


No. Wrong question.

[All Yip Man]


Now I feel that strength plays a huge part in being a good fighter. You see good MMA fighters and they are wery well developed in muscular size and toning. They place a HUGE importance on external fitness and strength training. WC may be "soft", but if you have power, why not use it? From what I have seen I do feel that WC really does place a LOT of importance on Qi cultivation. I'm not sure if I even believe in Qi :D

Should Wing Chun placemore emphasis on external strength. It's easy to say how internal "fajing" is superior, using Chinese terminology to somewhat "elevate" it above external strength.
[/B]

Wing Chun STUDENTS should place more emphasis on being in good physical condition AND having cardiovascular endurance.

Train for relaxed whole body strength.
Train for endurance.
Develop root, position, timing and sensitivity.
Touch as many different kinds of hands as you can.

Kick @ss and take names. :D

What are you training to do? Enter an elimation style NHB tournament? Enter a chi sao tournament? Streetfight? Submission Grappling?

By the way, don't your shoulders burn like h$ll from hours of rolling in poon sau?

Don't your legs get sore from the amount of pressure getting them to hold the postures properly in chum kiu? Aren't they tired from all the huge amounts of stepping you are doing?

From the hundreds of punches you are throwing daily?

Yeah. Thought so. :cool:

[Miles Teg]

Internal all the way!!!!!

Theres this guy that comes to train with us sometimes who is really good. He is incredibly cut and over a head taller than me. He spends a lot of time in the gym.

Anyway he used to live in H.K and came across Chu Shong Tin. As he had some training in W.C he did Chi Sao with Chu Shong Tin. He told us that he almost had his arm pulled out of his socket by him and the muscles in his arm were sore as.

I met this man first hand, he is huge and this was done to him by a skinny old man.

So why do you think you need muscular strenght?

[yuanfen]

Is there an overemphasis in WC on internal training over external?
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At its best its synergistic and also a delicate balance!

[popsider]

[QUOTE][i]Wong Shun Leung and Bruce Lee were two of Wing Chun's most acclaimed fighters, both of superior external development.""

Why do you say wsl was of superior external development. I never met him but I have read that he shunned weight training because he felt it inhibited his wing chun.

Personally I am not against weight training - this is just what I have read.

Pops

[black and blue]

I'm not sure if there's an over-emphasis on internal, but maybe people ought to work on the external a little more.

From my own experience with Wing Chunners I've spoken to and trained with, those that oppose a high level of fitness are usually those that are slightly over weight and find tough exercises really hard going.

On the main Kung Fu forum someone from Tai Chi said internal power was no greater in force than external power - just something that could be done at an old age but took a long time to learn when wishing to issue it in a street confrontation.

Even the internal guys and girls can't determine what they mean by 'internal' - but all the confusion aside, most 'do' agree their power generation is at least in part from good body mechanics.

This is present in Wing Chun too (IMHO) - good body mechanics - but muscles drive all our physical actions. Clap push-ups and centre-line push-ups are great for building up explosive short-range power. Your arm may be relaxed with tension in the fist(quickly released) at the point of impact - the elbow may be central to a strike's dynamics - but it's muscles that move the arm in the first place (primarily the tricep).

Fitness is also important when dealing with adrenaline dumps in a real fight. If you can end a fight in approx. three moves (as it is claimed WSL was able to)... GREAT.

If it takes you more, you'd be surprised at how much energy you use, how your accuracy weakens, etc, in a relatively short period.

An odd example :) would be Will Smith when he was training for his role in Ali. He said that the fitness blew him away. He said he'd never been that fit in his entire life - and as a result he felt quicker, stronger, more alert, more relaxed.

None of these things can be bad for a Wing Chunner. IMO people practising WC are often (though not always) practising for self defense. A good level of fitness (ie. having trained externally), will mean you have stamina, speed, some strength, good reactions etc.

Heck... you'll even be quicker on your feet!!! Sensitivity is great - but not so great when there are five guys with baseball bats running after you. When they come running you'd have wished those leg muscles weren't so flabby! ;)

You don't hear the armed forces saying: "Listen up! You boys are gonna be given guns, grenades and a whole bevy of goodies for taking people out at long range. We'll even give you knives for close range... so to H*ll with fitness... just aim and shoot... here, have another burger!"

Combat and a good level of fitness/external training - The two go hand in hand. Marines aren't fat :) Gladiators weren't fat :) Robin Hood wasn't fat :) Spiderman wasn't fat :) ... errr... okay... I'll shut up now.

:(

[S.Teebas]

If you could do all the internal in one day, you could spend the rest of your time on fighting. But as you know it takes years to get a good understanding, and ability to consistantly put the theory into practice.

I do weights, but i stoped at one stage becasue i was having problems relaxing to attain a cohesive mass. Now i feel i can still do them and use the WC method of power, as opposed to pushing with my muscles.

So in short, i think a healthy body (ie strength, endruance) is a bonus....ontop of using the Wc power. Im just trying to increase my muscles mass so i can get more power using structure and focusing. But it will come down to your personal preference of if you think you can follow the WC path; while also increasing the strength of your body using a contradictory method of power generation.

pushing - taking the force head on. (weights etc)
movement - allowing the force to pass through you (WC structure)

[TjD]

i agree with you wholeheartedly

once you learn how to properly move your body WC style i feel weight training is of benefit

theres that "relaxed feeling" i get that lets me know im doing it right :)


personally, i think the most important muscles to train for improvement in WC are the legs, they power almost everything

it seems the stronger my legs get, the quicker my body is, and the more powerful i become

stronger legs = quicker body movement
quicker body movement = more powerful strikes; and the ability to get in close faster

these are all extremely important to WC, in my humble opinion :)


peace
travis

[DelicateSound]

Cheers guys - good responces.

Most of you seem to think the same way as me.

I feel that although internal is obviously great, so it external power. To a certain extent you can have the best of both worlds. A balancing act like.

[Miles Teg]

black and blue

"Heck... you'll even be quicker on your feet!!! Sensitivity is great - but not so great when there are five guys with baseball bats running after you. When they come running you'd have wished those leg muscles weren't so flabby!"

Good point! Didn't think of that.

S. Teebas
The guy I was talking about is also very powerful, with incredibly heavey arms, so I guess weight training must be applicable.

[fa_jing]

We practice a somewhat externalized version of Wing Chun. It works quite well, I might add. Perhaps we could be beaten using the internal aspect by a fellow WC man - but this is of very little concern to me.

-FJ

[yuanfen]

Each to his own. The irony is that fajing is an internal concept<g>

[fa_jing]

Hey, now. I know how to fa-jing a little. Not as much as my name implies...LOL

[planetwc]

Originally posted by fa_jing
We practice a somewhat externalized version of Wing Chun. It works quite well, I might add. Perhaps we could be beaten using the internal aspect by a fellow WC man - but this is of very little concern to me.

-FJ

Externalized in what fashion?
Dynamic tension?
Extensive use of upper body strength?

If we looked at what you were doing, would we think we found a karate class mimicing Wing Chun?

How extreme or different are you in your approach?:D

[fa_jing]

Well, I'm so glad you asked. :) You would recognize that we are doing Wing Chun - we aren't using hard blocking, making sound effects, etc. We certainly practice completely traditional wing chun drills, it's a big part of our class time. I can name them. But, we also have those times when we pull out the air shield, the heavy bag, the thai pads, the focus mitts, the 16 oz boxing gloves. We do stomach taps, body conditioning, jump rope.
We do a little grappling. The main difference is, when we spar, we are proactive generally, not reactive, not waiting for the opponent to move while standing in YGKYM. We focus on the Bai Jong as a starting postion. We don't focus much on Chi Sao. My Sifu is experienced in ring fighting, he has studied June Fan JKD, but I do not like much the June Fan style, nor do I know the 5 ways of attack, etc. I like Wing Chun.

We still focus on relaxing, rather than tension. Yes, we like to get off our opponent's line of attack, we use triangle stepping, bracing step, etc. We haven't made Karate out of Wing Chun, but we do have a relatively big emphasis on striking power, for a Wing Chun school. And our body development is good backup for when that punch doesn't exactly link up. We still work on most of the same things you guys work on - it is a nice goal to be able to defeat your opponent effortlessly. I would say that we are realist, to know that you can't always do this, that you will get hit sometimes. Still, I plan on kicking butt into my 90's. ;)

[yuanfen]

We don't focus much on Chi Sao.
------------------------------------------------------------
Fajing- I posted an answer but it got lost in cyberspace...so here we go again. Of course you have a right to do what you are doing. My points are quite simple:

1. One does not have to know wing chun to be a winning "fighter". A bjj person can be a fighter, so can a wrestler, a boxer, a kick boxer...shoot- the toughest street fighter I have seen many times in action didnt have a single martial arts lesson.
((Unfortunately a rusty ice pick in his liver changed his life evntually))

2. Wing chun without wing chun motions AND chi sao is wing chun in name only-if the name is used. I respect Bruce Lee's honesty in not calling his later stuff- wing chun..

3. Chi sao shows whether your tan, bong, fok and their kin
have the right controls, feel, direction, body links- among many other important things..

4. Without chi sao, one basically mimics wing chun motions.

[S.Teebas]

The guy I was talking about is also very powerful, with incredibly heavey arms, so I guess weight training must be applicable.

I know some people might get the wrong idea of why poeple who do WC, might do weights. But your totally right in saying that you dont NEED the big muscles to make it work. Ive some footage of TST being held by a guy, an seriously.. hes like twice his size and strength. In one movement (after explaing what is is about to do to him) he cuts down, unbalances and strikes...this huge muscley guy couldn't stop it or resist it one bit!

[IronFist]

If weight training makes you stiff or decreases sensitivity or whatever was metioned here it means you are weight training wrong :)

Also, weight training does not necessarily equal bodybuilding.

IronFist

[black and blue]

You know what I mean - large tricep, small bicep - odd looking forearms (some muscles more prominent than others - with weird black and blue bruises on them every now and again).

I'm not into weight training but I once saw a pic of Emin Bozepe (sp?). B'Jesus... the man is ripped. I don't necessarily subscribe to his WC method, but he certainly didn't look slow and stiff in one of those WT mpegs that floats around the web.

As for internal/external WC, IMO WC is too direct for us to class it as internal. We might not meet force with force, and we might rely on sound body mechanics, but it certainly isn't Tai Chi! For me WC is about slapping someone silly with logically sound attacks that are hard to defend against because they are so direct.

We also train against pads and bags in our class. The best way to test structure is to whack something solid. As my Sifu says, the most important strike is the first one - once you've hit hard once, WC does its best to stop your opponent getting away. We favour lots of Man Geng Sau (sp?) when the situation is right.

I'm ranting. It's 9.40am - WC class is at 7.45pm... too long to wait

:( :( :(

[Alpha Dog]

Originally posted by black and blue
As my Sifu says, the most important strike is the first one - once you've hit hard once, WC does its best to stop your opponent getting away.

If your opponent is prepared, chances are the first strike won't reach the target -- what happens then?

[yuanfen]

If your opponent is prepared, chances are the first strike won't reach the target -- what happens then?
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If no flow-
Punt?

(US football lingo-in world soccer time)

[black and blue]

If the strike is stopped, switch, lap, press, roll... whatever to get that first 'hit' in. It's not the first attempt that matters most in dominating an opponent, but the first strike and how you control thereafter.

So says Duncan - all bow down before me!!!:)

[Alpha Dog]

Personally, I like to head-butt, and if that doesn't work, bicycle kick.

Italy was robbed!!!

[black and blue]

Ireland was robbed!!!

We are talking about the footy, right?

[fa_jing]

Yuanfen - you are predictable, and mostly correct. :) I always state that we are not traditional WC players, although my Sifu trained traditionally. The question is, what would you call us? We're giving credit to our mother art, Wing Chun. We do train traditionally, although not all of the time. I already explained that I don't reach the same conclusions that say, Bruce Lee did, and I would be very uncomfortable saying that I practiced JKD, even though in the most wide definition of that term, we are.

About chi sao - I believe there is varying emphasis on this exercise within the various WC clans. We DO practice poon sao and at times chi sao, both Dan chi sao and Luk Sao roll. BUT, we devote relatively little time to it. We DO practice Bon sao/lop sao drill, we do practice jou sao drill, we do practice hi/low pak da, tan da, gan da, etc. against a partner punching with turning, we march up and back the room in bracing step with 5 different double blocks against a partner punching, we practice the leg blocks, checks, and counter-kicks, we practice other drills that vary. 3-angle stepping, 3-arrow punch, chain punches. Trapping hands drills, several variations. We pull out the wooden knives and drill basics, we drill basics with the dragon pole. We do the traditional forms. Someday we'll get a couple wooden men up in the kwoon and Sifu will teach us that, too.

I wish I had more chi sao under my belt, I just need to find a training partner for this. I understand some of the theory. What I don't understand is, how likely are you to engage both of your opponent's arms with yours in that roll position, in a confrontation? Once you're in that range, you should be punching already, and your opponent will be too. Now, as a drill, I can see it's great. Excellent for building sensitivity and listening ability. A laboratory for practicing the basic wing chun movements.

The best thing about Chi sao is it maximizes your time spent working on sensitivity. You are in nearly constant contact with your opponents arms.

Still, the one point I have to disagree with you on is, can you learn the proper energy through a means other than chi sao. Yes you can, to a large degree at least. Because we practice applying these motions in basic, fundamental contexts - against incoming strikes, in prearranged patterns, and when you reach a certain level, in free sparring.

Yuanfen, why don't you make the same claims about the wooden man, that without the WM, it's not Wing Chun? Again, wooden man is a great teaching tool, but not all of us have access to one, especially to practice on our own.

Before I moved and met my current teacher, I trained with a Cheung-stylist for six months. He had 5 years of WC under his belt. We focused more on chi sao, I learned the first two sets of the wooden man. Does that mean what we were doing was closer to Wing Chun than what I practice now? Because my current sifu has been in Wing Chun for 28 years, and his stuff completely blows the other guy's stuff away. I've learned so much more deeply of Wing Chun concepts, structure, tactics, movement, etc., with what I am doing now, than I could have hoped to learn from the other guy in this time.

Anyway, I do plan to focus more on Chi sao when the opportunity presents itself. I plan to be in the martial arts for many years.

-FJ

[yuanfen]

Portugal played with only nine!!

[fa_jing]

Call me Portugal, with two ringers who shouldn't be playing with this team...LOL, :p :)

[yuanfen]

Yuanfen - you are predictable, and mostly correct.

((Predictable? Not always- but my art is based on very clear foundations))
The question is, what would you call us?

((Eclectic? not a dishonorable term- and not critical))

About chi sao - I believe there is varying emphasis on this exercise within the various WC clans.
((So?))
we do practice jou sao drill, we do practice hi/low pak da, tan da, gan da, etc.

((Drills are nice. Chi sao timing training is a marvel))
.

. What I don't understand is, how likely are you to engage both of your opponent's arms with yours in that roll position, in a confrontation?

((I would have to show you the adaptations of the two hands to whatever comes your way. WC is a two handed art. Dahn chi sao is a building block for each side devlopment))

Once you're in that range, you should be punching already, and your opponent will be too. Now, as a drill, I can see it's great.

((Chi sao- strictly is not just a drill))


Still, the one point I have to disagree with you on is, can you learn the proper energy through a means other than chi sao.

(Some of it yes...but chi sao is a core wing chun thing- very though through... not always evident in quick rolling))

Yuanfen, why don't you make the same claims about the wooden man, that without the WM, it's not Wing Chun?
((A dummy is indispensable at a certain stage of development.
Chi Sao is even more of a rquirement))




I plan to be in the martial arts for many years.

((Me too- next life too. ))yuanfen

-FJ

[fa_jing]

Y - you're fun! Glad to have someone with your level of experience discuss approach with a relative beginner like myself.

The reason I said you're predictable - I went to your master's seminar, and he had a very dogmatic approach to Wing Chun. I don't mean this in a negative way. His students, like you, accept the dogma, and that's a good way to learn - trust your sifu. Fong's approach is Chi sao, Chi sao, and more chi sao, from what I saw and heard. This is the tool through which he imparts knowledge to his students. My sifu imparts knowledge differently, and a consequence of this is that it is not entirely the same knowledge. Nor the same style, of course stylistically we are family, perhaps cousins. The usage is a little different. Eclectic is a good term for what we do, although I wouldn't want to put this word on a sign outside our training hall, it would probably give the wrong impression. ;)

"I would have to show you the adaptations of the two hands to whatever comes your way"
Could you elaborate on this? Pretty please? This is the one point I was unable to get from the seminar. I observed that Master Fong really could take any self-defense situation and "make it" into chi sao. I'm not sure his students shared that skill--and Fong's explaination seemed something along the lines of - if you practice chi sao long enough, this will naturally occur.

-FJ

[yuanfen]

Dogma? That is in its root meaning associated with something like
church related doctrine. I belong to no church and have no dogmas -sacred or profane. Being the "academic" type I always experiment with ideas, retain philosophical skepticism and do not accept them a priori. I have
via experience come to see the importance of the unique world of good chi sao for developing and sharpening the non technique oriented auto- reflexive potentials in wing chun. Pre arranged drills and common sparring do not have the richness and diversity of motions that come out of chi sao. If your sifu uses another way and you find it useful- I have NO problem with it. No dogma, no church and no conversion. Not just Fong...most of Yip Man's own students -those who spent quality time with him have emphasized the importance of chi sao-though Yip Man himself was quite selective about who he engaged in chi sao. When Fong is on the road ata seminar usually he is trying to explain things to relative newbies. Most of his long time students are in Arizona and they dont go to most of the out of town seminars- nor do they spend time on the net. Fong doesnt either on the net.
Regarding your final question--- good chi sao skills result in automatic control of the center and the center line. Soa good chi sao player when meeting an attack has a pretty good chance to automatically counter or attack- or in friendly lat sao play turn it into chi sao. Cheers.
yuanfen/joy chaudhuri

[fa_jing]

Indeed, most of the students at the seminar were beginners. Fong made his point through demonstration, I was hoping for a more detailed verbal explaination--I'm sure some of his seniors could explain in to me. And, I agree that Chi Sao is special, it is part of what makes Wing Chun unique, and that the Masters of this art as far back as history is recorded, have used this tool extensively. I think it is clear that Wing Chun Chi Sao is more highly developed than the Chi Sao of any other art we have seen. I am in fact, somewhat jealous of students following traditional approaches - just as they might be jealous of me for giving and receiving hits.
I absolutely plan to further my study of Chi Sao at a future point. Still, what I do, is a variation of Wing Chun, the major difference being the approach. My sifu is not big on Chi Sao, because he feels it is not realistic and encourages flashiness. He is a strong believer that you need to be successful with the 1st or 2nd technique, in vary rare cases a 3rd technique. He says don't plan on any 3 or 4 technique combos, where only at the end do you get a hit. Now, I imagine that in Chi Sao, the same is probably true. I'm not sure exactly why he feels the way he does--he has his own ideas. Maybe he's just holding things back from us! But I think it is also a matter of, we only meet once a week (semi-private), and I don't get to work out with another WC player during the week. And Chi Sao is something that is of more benefit when you have a regular practice partner. Furthermore, the other student of my Sifu focuses more on JKD, and for me to Chi Sao with him is not very beneficial, his doesn't have great sensitivity. Like I said, we do practice mostly Poon Sao with some footwork, sometimes we'll lean back and throw a kick, and also Chi Gerk (the drill.) But my sifu is using these tools at the end of a workout to tire us out, not to teach us sensitivity so much. I gain sensitivity from it through my own intention to do so.
Incidentally, my Sifu's hands are very sensitive.


YuanFen, sorry to keep coming with these long posts, I have had some time on my hands at work lately, but it is somewhat unfair of me to be spewing out so much verbage - I don't want be making my point through inundation.

Peace and respect.
-FJ