Striker beats grappler

[Black Belt Jones 1]

What if I told a little story about a couple of guys that got in a fight - one was a striker, one was a grappler. One was a state champion high school wrestler and the other a 3rd degree brown belt in Tae Kwon Do. What ended the fight was a kick to the head of the wrestler by the TKD guy. It was an immediate knockout. No intervention from friends, broken glass on the floor or other of the "variables" often cited by both sides. It really did happen in my high school. I was there and saw it all.
Why am I telling you this? Because it illustrates the absurdity of the whole "grappling vs. striking" phenomenon that has overtaken many of the internet forums including this one in the past. I'm sure that many people can give me real life examples of a situation that ended the other way around. I just laugh when I hear people talking about why a certain technique couldn't work against a grappler, or why a grappler would be knocked out instanly by such and such move etc.... Its equally absurd in my opinion to watch guys in the UFC and then make blanket statements like:"Oh since (insert name) has beaten so many of these guys then this style of fighting must be better than the other". When we watch these fighters on T.V. we are looking at someone who is a professional fighter in mostly top physical condition competing in a controlled environment. This is not to say that they couldn't fight well in a real fight scenario, because most of them can. An art like BJJ might give the edge to a young man over another person who can't fight well on the ground. But an older person trained in Tai chi might be able to use their knowledge to cheat a near death encounter while being unable to perform the NHB movements which would demand too much from their body, strengh, and capabilities. I spent 4 years learning Judo under a private instructor. I know grappling pretty well or at least well enough to hold my own should the need arise. I don't know enough to enter NHB competition nor am I in good enough physical condition to compete in a large scale event. Ive met many tough people from many different styles and backgrounds and they all seemingly have 1 thing in common. They seek to catalog a set of moves to meet with any encounter that could be presented to them. The moves they select are based upon how effeciently their body framework enables them to execute the moves while obtaining maximum results.
I experienced this in my Judo traing. Many of the killer moves that my instructor would use to get me to submit every time I was unable to perform equally as he. This was because I was built differently and his physiological makeup enabled him to successfully execute them. Likewise I had moves that I could do that he was unable to get equal results. I have watched some of the Gracie's tapes(instructional), and there are a lot of good moves that I feel I could execute competently. Some however I have tried and cannot get them to work very well. I atttribute this to the same body makeup arguement that was the basis of difference between my instructor and myself. These guys know themselves and what they can do. They might be able to successfully get you in a figure 4 knecklock quite easily, while you might never be able to reproduce the desired effect. I think that any fighter whether stand up or ground oriented can perfect his/her gameplan to a very high level if they realize the techniques that work more effectively for them and while learning the ohters - not specifically relying on them in a fight. Do what works best. In other words, I don't think there is necessarily any bad techniques, only techniques that work better for some than others. In the afforementioned example, the TKD guy's kick was obviously fast enough and powerful to negate the grappler's takedown that he tried to perform. There are some grapplers I'm sure that could probably have avoided it. Just an example of individuality in training i guess.

[norther practitioner]

It's a shame that so many people here don't know what gong fu is. It should be all encompassing, gong fu in wushu is great, and will develop a great martial artist, but many people don't realize that a good fighter in a style may not have a lot of the skills that style encompasses. There are many techniques in many arts that can be translated into multiple situations, this includes grappling skills coming from striking. Until people realize that in studying most arts that they are headed in the same direction, albeit a different path than others doing martial arts, they won't realize what their potential is. I (until a recent dislocation of my patella and partially torn MCL) was sparring with people of mutliple backrounds every thursday. This showed me a few things. The jujitsu teacher is **** good and it hurts when you get taken down fast, you can get locked up faster than you can think sometimes, you can counter grappling with grappling, or striking, or a mixture of both, and a good strike doesn't always stop someone from getting inside. Regardless the basis of much of the footwork and handwork works along the same basics and physics. Using the hand/foot work to change the balance is universal, and hopefully more people will come to realize this (just not my opponents ). Oh, and another week and I can stop wearing my brace. :D

[Unmatchable]

In the past "Beimo" or the equivalent of a match today was done often just to test the skill levels between two combatants and not of the style's superiority. There are rules governing the match as its purpose is to measure how skillful you are in fighting. Wong Shun Leung did many of these beimos to test and to refine his WC fighting skills to his great personal benefits. Many of his defeated foes later became his good friends. In many of his speeches, Wong advised to stay clear of the evil of pitting styles against styles in such like as UFC, NHB, and MMA that we see today. I hope we can put things in perspective for the improvement of our training.

[Wongsifu]

so wong said it helped improve and refine his technique to great perfonal benefit . But we shouldnt enter UFC because its evil :rolleyes:

why kf will never get anywhere , we are the flower power kung fu generation

[chingei]

Originally posted by Black Belt Jones 1
Many of the killer moves that my instructor would use to get me to submit every time I was unable to perform equally as he. This was because I was built differently and his physiological makeup enabled him to successfully execute them.

it couldn't have been his years of training I guess.

[Brad Souders]

Originally posted by Black Belt Jones 1
What if I told a little story about a couple of guys that got in a fight - one was a striker, one was a grappler. One was a state champion high school wrestler and the other a 3rd degree brown belt in Tae Kwon Do. What ended the fight was a kick to the head of the wrestler by the TKD guy


I would reply: "Yeah it happened four years ago when Maurice Smith kicked Conan Silvaria in the bloody cranium."

[Merryprankster]

Amen to that Brad :)

[Cableguy]

I thought that whole striker vrs grappler thing was over at about UFC 15.
There is no best style of MA. So many of them overlap each other and many of them are incomplete. The best thing is learn whatever style you choose to the best of your ability but also have the knowledge to be effective in any situation.

ie. You could be a world champion jiu jitsu player and also a world champion kickboxer who gets confronted by 10 members of some roudy street gang. You might have all the skills to fight effectivley but you would be better off with the knowledge of a sprinter and marathon runner:)

[scotty1]

I thought that was a very good post from Black Belt Jones.

BBJ: "Many of the killer moves that my instructor would use to get me to submit every time I was unable to perform equally as he. This was because I was built differently and his physiological makeup enabled him to successfully execute them."

Chinghei: "It couldn't have been his years of training I guess"

Nice sarcastic answer, experience obvously has a lot to do with this, but there is something to be said about different techniques having various degrees of success for different people.

Also, maybe some of the techniques that did not work against your instructor may have worked against someone different.

Rather than putting it down to you not being able to perform it maybe it was your instructor it didn't work on. Whenever we are shown a joint lock or anything involving limb leverage against a joint there is ALWAYS someone in the class who it just doesn't effect.

Anyone else notice this?

[Merryprankster]

I have yet to run across a jointlock or choke in BJJ that just "doesn't work" on me or anybody else.

I will agree, however, that there is varying flexibility from one individual to the next and that full extension on one person may not be on another.

[scotty1]

Yeah I can see how a choke would work on anyone, I suppose if I think about it the locks I have seen not work are wrist locks.

But then again not everyone in the class is demonstrated on by the instructor, so I suppose that would be the control.

Sorry, bit of a jump from (small) personal experience to rash generalization there.

[Royal Dragon]

Many Joint locks are ineffective, NOT because the technique is bad, but because the specific opponent knows how to defete it before it is fully locked.

[chingei]

Originally posted by scotty1

Chinghei: "It couldn't have been his years of training I guess"

Nice sarcastic answer, experience obvously has a lot to do with this, but there is something to be said about different techniques having various degrees of success for different people.



that's a cop-out for not working on weaknesses

[chingei]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Many Joint locks are ineffective, NOT because the technique is bad, but because the specific opponent knows how to defete it before it is fully locked.

not only joint locks, but all techniques. of course it is easier on the ego to think "I must have the wrong body type for this" than "I suck at this, I'd better practice more."

[Black Belt Jones 1]

"it couldn't have anything to do with his years of experience?"

Yes experience does play a role however my instructor outweighed me by 45 lbs and was much stronger. I have sparred with many judoka both smaller than myself and much larger and all the larger opponents have the luxury of supplementing their technique with strength and size. The point that I was getting at was many of the larger jiu jitsu/grappling guys whose tapes I have seen often employ techniques that are better suited to an opponent that has the strength to execute them. When I was taught Judo I was taught to perform the moves without the use of muscular exertion. This is the most basic of judo technique "the gentle way" and should be taught to everyone first. If the student has physical attributes (size/strength) then after considerable time in training he/she can supplement their technique with these inherent advantages. For example I am not of a strong build - rather lanky and wiry. These attributes enable me to effectively choke an opponent from a kessa-gatame, a control hold that is meant to immobilize, not really choke an opponent. My instructor was unable to accomplish this since his arms were so big and meaty. As he always would say "bone, not muscle, chokes people". If I were to try and teach kessa - gatame as a choking technique then I would be doing a great disservice to my students. I have seen a jiu jitsu instructors VHS instructional tape where the instuctor was in the side mount and cranking/choking an opponent by putting his fist on the mat and leveraging against the opponents head. This works fine if you can curl 175 lbs. But what I found(and also my instructor, when I inquired of him about it) was that unless you are very strong it doesn't take a whole lot of resistance to thwart it. No 1 technique is a fail safe, end all including all BJJ/Judo/wrestling techniques. I have had nearly unlimited success with many choking techniques until I applied them to someone who was able to twist out of it. What bugs me as a grappler and now a part time kung fu/tai chi stylist is that the grappling moves are taught/puported as "unbeatable" (when dirrected at stand up fighters) to the public. I blame this for the invasion of "internet grappler warriors" that seems to plague online forums. I have seen many great grapplers/wrestlers that I as a stand up fighter would not want to mess with. As a grappler I have also known many stand up fighters that could hand me my butt as a grappler. What I discovered in judo about grappling in general is that for every move there is a counter move that can effectively thawrt the former and vice vera. The whole crux of my arguement is that lots of subscribers to the grappling paradigm of today seem to suggest that their moves are unmatched and that is not so.

[Dark Knight]

The whole crux of my arguement is that lots of subscribers to the grappling paradigm of today seem to suggest that their moves are unmatched and that is not so.

Mo Smith proved that long time ago at UFC. He won a couple before learning submission fighting.

[Archangel]

"Mo Smith proved that long time ago at UFC. He won a couple before learning submission fighting."

That is completely untrue. Mo Smith learned the grappling before he fought his first fight in Extreme challenge. If you watch his fight with Conan he used a great defensive guard in or to get back to his feet.

[scotty1]

"that's a cop-out for not working on weaknesses"

only if you let it be used as such.

[Dark Knight]

Your right, my Bad.

Mo had a fighting background in pancrse back to 93.

He still claims to be a kickboxer, even though he has won by submission.

[chingei]

Originally posted by scotty1
"that's a cop-out for not working on weaknesses"

only if you let it be used as such.

ok

[Unmatchable]

Some of you guys have some serious reality problems. You think the best fighters fight in UFC? UFC 1-4 was a great big pre-planned advertisement for the Gracies. If you did your homework you would have read an Interview with Marco Ruas as well as Ken Shamrock stated that Rorian Gracie handpicked the fighters for the first 3 UFC's. And it was they who from video demos and interviews picked participants among the willing. It looked like they choose silently from those who were the best show. If for instance Jason de Lucia is by someone called as "master kung fu style five animals" than I thank for such a master. That isn't example of Kung Fu it is only "kungfuwannabe" found on Western markets. When the bit better participants started showing up from different styles all of a sudden there appeared so many organizations UFC that there was nothing allowed.

It is de facto manipulation - like I would organize tournament, and to confrontation with really good Thai boxers I would choose from willing not Brazilians only represants from bjj England, or bjj United States that would ofcourse receive their ass kicked and after it would be told that the tournament proved bjj is worth **** give me a break do you honestly think that those half-assed sorry sacks of **** were masters in any way of true standup arts. The Wing Chun fighters were a joke, Levicki was just some big idiot who had barely learned any WC, Scott Baker is some sort of pseudo-mystic who thinks about Wing Chun, and Reza Nasri claims of training Wing Tsun were complete fabrication. The Gracies no longer accept any challengers outside the UFC or even outside the state of California.

[Merryprankster]

Unmatchable---

1995 called--it wants its fight videos back.

Rotten examples considering we're in the 30's on UFC and in the low 20's on Pride...

[DelicateSound]

It's sent its second letter through my door for it's Oasis album. Just ignore it. It's so humbled after not matching up to 1994, it will barely press the issue.

Hell, it was lucky to get its Deep Fried Mars Bars back, and that was fighting Scotland!

[Archangel]

How about Steve Faulkner. I looked his lineage up

http://www.ong.ro/ong/ltcsr/wingchun4ro.htm

and his lineage starts from Duncan Leung (#17 on the site) who is a direct student of Yip Man. Steve fought in the Extreme Championship against Igor Zinoviev; he was slammed and choked out. You can see a clip on Sherdog's if you want.

[Archangel]

Oh ya, I just wanted to clear up the myth of there being no good strikers in the early days of MMA.

Jerome Turcan, fought in WCC
3 time French national Savate champion and WKA 6th ranked cruiserweight.

James Warring, fought in WCC
former IBF cruiserweight champion

Gerard Gordeau
World Boxe Francaise Heavyweight Champion, 1990-1992
Dutch National Karate Champion for 8 consecutive years.
Member of original K-1

Pat Smith, UFC 1,2
2 x Sabaki Challenge Heavyweight Champion
KICK Super Heavyweight Champion
Ranked #1 Super-Heavyweight Kickboxer in the U.S. (1993)
Ranked #5 Super-Heavyweight Kickboxer in the World (1993)

Orlando Weit, UFC 2
1992 World Kickboxing Champion
1988 European Champion
1985 Holland National Champion

[Unmatchable]

I saw the clip from Steve Faulkner's fight on Sherdog, and all I have to say is he didn't fight like WIng Chun at all, but like a little girl. As a matter of fact he didn't fight at all, he just faked a low Muy Thai style kick (or it might have actually connected but it was so weak that a kid could hit harder), and tried to grapple with Igor, getting slammed on the mat. I don't train Wing Chun but I could do better and more efficient Wing Chun than that. At least I would chain punch, keep the stance, and do variety of low kicks from the get go keeping my distance. This guy was a joke.

As for the other strikers, you have to take in consideration I was mentioning Gong Fu specifically and traditional styles, but there were some good kickboxers.

[Archangel]

Oh I see, you could do better than these guys; It's the same argument again over and over. Then why don't you do it tough guy, show us what your Kung Fu is about.

You show little or no respect to these men who actually had the balls to go into a cage and fight. Sure they lost, but unlike you they can actually say to themselves that they did. Instead of just theorizing in their minds that they "would have" done this or stopped his takedown by "stepping away from his center".

[chingei]

Originally posted by Archangel
Oh I see, you could do better than these guys; It's the same argument again over and over. Then why don't you do it tough guy, show us what your Kung Fu is about.

You show little or no respect to these men who actually had the balls to go into a cage and fight. Sure they lost, but unlike you they can actually say to themselves that they did. Instead of just theorizing in their minds that they "would have" done this or stopped his takedown by "stepping away from his center".


very well said.

[Unmatchable]

Originally posted by Archangel
Oh I see, you could do better than these guys; It's the same argument again over and over. Then why don't you do it tough guy, show us what your Kung Fu is about.

You show little or no respect to these men who actually had the balls to go into a cage and fight. Sure they lost, but unlike you they can actually say to themselves that they did. Instead of just theorizing in their minds that they "would have" done this or stopped his takedown by "stepping away from his center".

Archangel I won't degrade myself like this unless ofcourse you want to fight me?

[Unmatchable]

BTW Archangel experience in fighting has alot to do on how well you fight. Igor probably had alot more experience in extreme fighting as well as street fighting to be able to apply his art.

[chingei]

Originally posted by Unmatchable


Archangel I won't degrade myself like this unless ofcourse you want to fight me?


*snif *snif

what is that...... oh!

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by Unmatchable


Archangel I won't degrade myself like this unless ofcourse you want to fight me?

Im sure fighting archangel would degrade you quite a bit.

Hee hee just kidding you set yourself up for that!

Also Jason delucia is 32-19-0 so he cant be too bad.

Early UFC's may have been somewhat rigged but ufc is no longer in its early stages.

[Archangel]

"Archangel I won't degrade myself like this unless ofcourse you want to fight me?"

LMAO!!! I had you pegged right from the start. Yeah sure, i'll meet you at the bike racks after school.

"BTW Archangel experience in fighting has alot to do on how well you fight. Igor probably had alot more experience in extreme fighting as well as street fighting to be able to apply his art."

What Igor had was practical application of his art through competition. Judo and kickboxing competitions gave him experience against 100% resisting opponents. It gave him a chance to develop the proper timing, range and mat sensitivity necessary to be a good fighter. Steve Faulkner just had theory.

[LEGEND]

Talks like RALEK doesn't he???

[Unmatchable]

LMFAO

No actually Legend,
You, Archangel, Ralek, and Knife fighter are all from the same ilk. You all are big mouthed losers, and nothing but wannabe martial artists.

All you do is sit behind your monitors flappin your ****ing gums, because you are either 12 year olds, spineless cowards or fakes!

As far as I am concerned, you are little more than tough talking, fist ****ing, oxygen thieves. And all you do on these forums is talk about gay Jiutsu.

[chokeyouout]

I love gay jitsu!Will you offer me your manhood on my mat?

[STUDD WILSON]

Gee I thought kniffuker was finished psoting his multiple personalities. Now I guess you can all wait for JJJ, jiujistsujackoff, gin sue dog, or any one of his other tags to show up. Unmatchable you are correct, most of these guys just hang around here because they get a ****sexual rush from fukking with the CMA posters on this board. I always wondered why they spend so much time here instead of hanging with their own. Probably because their grappling partner amounts to a training dummy (if their parents can afford it) and a stack of gracie vids. Dont let them intimidate you. Knifefukker has about ten different tags from what Ive been told and many of the clowns that youve been arguing with are just him under an assumed name. Thats why I rarely ever post here anymore.

[Archangel]

WOW!!!! Your debating skills are amazing, Is that Benjamin Disraeli behind that handle :rolleyes: . As I expected you ducked my points and as a last gasp you resort to name calling; Absolutely typical.

[Unmatchable]

Archangel what don't you understand about the fact that the more sparring/fighting experience you have the better you will be regarding of any style. Guys like Igor or Gracie spend their whole lives fighting and learning martial arts than you compare them to part time ma that learned a few months worth of Wing Chun. I can sit here all day telling you the reasons why I think CMA is better, and you can sit here all day defending bjj or vice versa. And I still stand my point that we are not robots, but humans and fight each other not our fighting styles.

Some styles adopts to sport better than others. Grappling adopts well, because all you have to do is make someone submit, not maim or kill them. But it's alot different on the street because people won't give up but keep coming at you until maimed. They also might not feel pain because of drunkeness, drugs, etc. I'm not saying striking or grappling, multiple martial arts training or single or anything like that is better. That's what you do.


And Wilson, thanks for your input.

[Archangel]

Let's see where do I start.

"Archangel what don't you understand about the fact that the more sparring/fighting experience you have the better you will be regarding of any style"

I agree, If you want to learn how to swim you get in the water; Same thing for fighting. However I disagree that it's true regardless (I'm sure you didn't mean regarding) of style. Some styles are better suited for fighting than others. Do you honestly think that a fighter can bring say Olympic TKD into the ring and be successful with it. I'd say the percentage would be extremely low.

"Guys like Igor or Gracie spend their whole lives fighting and learning martial arts than you compare them to part time ma that learned a few months worth of Wing Chun"

Now you're not really being accurate there. Steve Faulkner was an Instructor under Leung who was a student of Yip Man. Anybody at instructor level had to have spent a good portion of his life studying Wing Chun.

Also Wing Chun fighter Asbel Cansio lost to Dave Beneteau in 21 seconds. Dave was a part time college wrestler up in Canada, he boxed but did not spend his life time fighting and learning martial arts.

"Grappling adopts well, because all you have to do is make someone submit, not maim or kill them"

I think that is a huge fallacy. A CMA fighter doesn't need to maim or kill an opponent; I know this sounds simplistic but why can't he just score a knockout; or even a TKO, refs have been stopping fights now just on unanswered strikes?

[Unmatchable]

Yea but IMO it takes alot more work to knock someone out than submit them, especially with gloves on.

Also If anyone thinks these events are simply a matter of traditional/modern training as well as technical refinement has their head buried in the sand.

For those that choose not to read between the lines I will spell it out-ROID RAGE. In no way is this an implication of all fighters.

But it is naive to think it is not prevelant

[Archangel]

"Yea but IMO it takes alot more work to knock someone out than submit them, especially with gloves on."

Again, another complete fallacy. Anybody with any experience will tell you that wraps, tape and gloves protect the hands and not your opponents head. Wraps and tape reinforced your hand and literally make them feel like cement. Also with mass added to the hand, greater concussion force is applied.

If you look at the fights nowadays, about half of the finishes are from KO's or TKO's. If kick, thai and western boxers can do it, why can't TMA fighters?

[Unmatchable]

Most boxers and Muy Thai guys cross train in grappling as well. So I wouldn't call them pure strikers like the TMA guys. I haven't seen a decent TMA guy in NHB yet. But NHB really bores me, so I hardly watch it.

Regarding the glove vs bare knuckle issue, I disagree with you. Gloves add extra weight and lessen mobility with the hands, also lessen various striking ways. Open hand palm striking, phonix eye striking, leapord knucle striking, etc. The fist has four very powerful once conditioned bones on the fist that when hitting spots like the temple and throat can be lethal. The glove doesn't.

[Archangel]

"Most boxers and Muy Thai guys cross train in grappling as well. So I wouldn't call them pure strikers like the TMA guys."

Well I never called them pure strikers, but doesn't that tell you something?? Maybe cross training in wrestling and the ground is a good idea. Addressing that your art is incomplete and has work to do in various ranges is what these boxers have done; a lot of TMA should do the same, instead of complaining about the rules and that the fighters weren't "real".

"Gloves add extra weight and lessen mobility with the hands, also lessen various striking ways. Open hand palm striking, phonix eye striking, leapord knucle striking, etc"

You have to remember that most of the Kung Fu guys that participated, fought during the early days of UFC. There were no gloves and they still couldn't pull off those strikes you mentioned.

I have witnessed a couple of fights like John Marsh vs. a San Soo instructor and Vitor Belfort vs. John Hess, that were true one on one NHB with no rules. Those fighters thought they could strike the throat and rake the eyes without any accord. They ended up getting beat down before they could even attempt it.

A good strike is all about timing, distance and a good solid foundation starting at your feet. It's not about "deadly techniques.

[Merryprankster]

Unmatchable--

A question--have you done any full contact sparring? Have you done it outside your style.

When I say full contact, I'm talking about somebody throwing shots with bad intentions--if they can knock you out, they will.

[Unmatchable]

Originally posted by Archangel
"Most boxers and Muy Thai guys cross train in grappling as well. So I wouldn't call them pure strikers like the TMA guys."

Well I never called them pure strikers, but doesn't that tell you something?? Maybe cross training in wrestling and the ground is a good idea. Addressing that your art is incomplete and has work to do in various ranges is what these boxers have done; a lot of TMA should do the same, instead of complaining about the rules and that the fighters weren't "real".

"Gloves add extra weight and lessen mobility with the hands, also lessen various striking ways. Open hand palm striking, phonix eye striking, leapord knucle striking, etc"

You have to remember that most of the Kung Fu guys that participated, fought during the early days of UFC. There were no gloves and they still couldn't pull off those strikes you mentioned.

I have witnessed a couple of fights like John Marsh vs. a San Soo instructor and Vitor Belfort vs. John Hess, that were true one on one NHB with no rules. Those fighters thought they could strike the throat and rake the eyes without any accord. They ended up getting beat down before they could even attempt it.

A good strike is all about timing, distance and a good solid foundation starting at your feet. It's not about "deadly techniques.

Archangel I already told you the first UFC's were like a cartoon. Rorion Gracie selected the fighters to fight in the tournament from the willing. He and his friend Art Davie, the promoter of the ufc
made shure it was a big advertisement for the Gracie's and their family style. Not to mention that at that time nobody really knew about nhb, and most fighters were really skeptical of it. By the time the real TMA people caught on with it, they started adding on the rules, protective equipment, and bull**** politics. The first UFC's proved ****, and again it would be like me taking the best Thai fighters from Thai land to fight a bunch of bjj guys in England, proving that bjj is ineffective because they lost against these mutch more experienced fighters, with politics behind them.

What you have to realize is the best fighters are mostly in third world countries, and couldn't afford traveling to a first world country (like U.S) just to prove something to a few people doubting their abilities. Even though IMO there are alot of great kf fighters in the United States that could conquer these mixed martial artist goons. All the Kung Fu fighters in nhb fighting so far were a joke.

[Unmatchable]

If it weren't making money, it wouldn't be seen. I rented a video last night and watched it. It was UFC fighting. I was so bored watching it that I shut it off and went to bed. There is little to no skill involved, other than bulk size, in beating down an opponent. If you like that sort of thing, fine, watch it. As for me, I'll get a good movie-Shaw Brother's come's to mind-relax and enjoy it and then go nighty-night!!!

[Archangel]

"By the time the real TMA people caught on with it, they started adding on the rules"

O.K. can you tell me who these "Real" TMA guys are. Can you give me some names or schools.

"it would be like me taking the best Thai fighters from Thai land to fight a bunch of bjj guys in England, proving that bjj is ineffective because they lost against these mutch more experienced fighters, with politics behind them."

That's not accurate as well, a BJJ blackbelt that is recognised by the governing body is good no matter where they are from. You just can't get a BJJ Blackbelt without proving it in actual competition in front of the entire community.


"What you have to realize is the best fighters are mostly in third world countries, and couldn't afford traveling to a first world country (like U.S) just to prove something to a few people doubting their abilities. Even though IMO there are alot of great kf fighters in the United States that could conquer these mixed martial artist goons."

Again, can you name some please. Who are these great KF fighters that could conquer the MMA world if they really wanted to.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Unmatchable
If it weren't making money, it wouldn't be seen. I rented a video last night and watched it. It was UFC fighting. I was so bored watching it that I shut it off and went to bed. There is little to no skill involved, other than bulk size, in beating down an opponent. If you like that sort of thing, fine, watch it. As for me, I'll get a good movie-Shaw Brother's come's to mind-relax and enjoy it and then go nighty-night!!!

Do yourself a favor - go to a bjj class. go to a MT class - there is as much skill in it as their is in CMA. bjj is more in depth than anything I've ever seen...the sublteties and attention to minor detail that you have to have, or your techniques will be weak, the multitudes of techniques and options at your disposal, the constant drilling... almost sounds like good kung fu, doesn't it

[Unmatchable]

What you wrote in my opinion is the main reason kung fu in the West has such bad reputation.I studied Kung Fu in Taiwan for a year, and I learned more than in the 12 years I studied in the West previously.

Taji teacher Chen Xiaowang had an experience with a Muy Thai fighter. When a Muay Thai practitioner began throwing some hard kicks. Chen Xiaowang dealt with that with a straight-in charge and fajin that dumped the guy on his ass. Chen moved so fast that the Muay Thai man didn't really follow what happened before he hit the ground. There was no ting jin or yielding there. It was simply over in a matter of seconds.

I have friends in bjj, and I know their take downs are pretty predictable and weak (but they are very good on the ground). We played around a bit, and I had to pull my strikes because of the chance of serious injury. But what's really funny is when you hit them in the nuts they say it's against the rules. lol, in a real fight you guys should know there are no rules.

[Archangel]

Can you respond to my statements before we move forward in this discussion. I've responded to all of yours, thank you.

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by Archangel
I agree, If you want to learn how to swim you get in the water; Same thing for fighting. However I disagree that it's true regardless (I'm sure you didn't mean regarding) of style. Some styles are better suited for fighting than others. Do you honestly think that a fighter can bring say Olympic TKD into the ring and be successful with it. I'd say the percentage would be extremely low.

Thats because olympic TKD wasnt meant for anything but the olympics!

[Le nOObi]

Also can someone give me the link to John mash vs san soo video?

[Unmatchable]

sorry people that i don't have a historical stories with old famous masters defeating grapplers (there are plenty if you want to search).

my are modern

ok first:
friends of my (he studies in Taiwan) is Russian from Kazachstan and he is former young champion of Kazachstan (when he was sixteen) in sambo, he got beaten by a few Chinese masters in Bejing (all of them older than he minimum 20 years )
he everytime try to go down and catch the legs and lost a few times
of course he won with a few anothers, some of them refused to try

next (my personal):
i have been practised judo when i was young for long time and i have tried to do this what my friend (see up) to my teacher and i failed to yourt knowledge I'm 29 but my teacher 69 years old
he just use bagua power and hit me when i wanted to catch him.

[Order]

merry and Archangel, wow, you guys are truly the modern day warriors. Do you do gun training along with everything else just in case you should get caught in a gangland crossfire? If not I recommend it, western boxing? Muay thai kicks? and groundwork? I've been told they don't handle bullets too well. Good stuff this mixed martial arts training. I think I'll go and find myself a gun club to join.

[omegapoint]

Originally posted by Order
Do you do gun training along with everything else just in case you should get caught in a gangland crossfire? If not I recommend it, western boxing? Muay thai kicks? and groundwork? I've been told they don't handle bullets too well. Good stuff this mixed martial arts training. I think I'll go and find myself a gun club to join.

Gun Fu is the best. I was trained courtesy of my pops and USAF SpecOps (no rhyming intended).

The fact of the matter is that most people are average. Mediocrity abounds in the world. That's how nature works. So don't be fooled: natural talent + hard work will always be superior to very little natural talent + hard work. Luck does happen though. Those guys that fought Royce in the first UFCs were barely average (did you see the shape some of those cats were in?). Yeah, they gained some sport art title in a meaningless organization. Yeah they probably trained everyday, 10 hrs. a day for a year or so. Still they were whack! Cruiserweight chump? What year and who cares?! Cruiserweights are the worst division, and it was obvious that he couldn't even throw a real punch. He was "real" fighting with a glove on (or was it 2), ridiculous! None of them, even the Shootfighters like Ken Shamrock were half as good as they looked. I've known real squabbers my entire life and Royce was the closest thing to reality, but that wasn't really real, period.

No need to beat a dead horse. Drop this argument. Ain't none of you here ever gonna participate in events like the UFC, or even fight on the streets. If you are trained correctly, you'll most likely be able to spot the warning signs that static is about to ensue, and redirect your course. Even the cats you guys jock like MP, Ryu, 7* and Black Jack will probably never fight for real (now, after their extensive MAs training) so none of these opinions matter. It's just fun to see people get bent outta shape about fantasy scenarios!

One more thing, if you think that MMAs is the answer to your lack of fighting knowledge, then better for me and the other traditionalists who know whas'sup. Just like Whodini said you're a " jack of all trades and master of none" . You'll figure that out when you're on your 2nd reconstructive knee surgery, hehehe. Herniated disks are fun. As is Parkinsonian Syndrome and organic brain damage. Got any cauliflower for the salad, geniuses!!!

[chingei]

Originally posted by omegapoint

The fact of the matter is that most people are average. Mediocrity abounds in the world. That's how nature works.

apparently.

[Order]

Now, lets review some basic things. I don't have a problem with mma people.

I have a problem with anyone who comes along and says something to the following effect:

"you dont agree with me, so obviously, you have never sparred or seen a real fight. Real fights are ugly."

No kidding. This goes along with Archangel's battletested comment. When was the last time someone was shooting at an NHB tournament? I can think of once, but it was held during a Biker Convention. It was hardly a planned event, and as I recall, the guys with the guns did much better than the grapplers.

Anyway, I am glad to know that the internet has become so invasive that random posters can come here and state with certainty that no one else has ever sparred...

I live in Japan. There is a show here, where they took 4 street fighters, "real fighters", and offered them a chance to train with a former boxing champ.

I watch the show frequently. The "street fighters" are constantly critical of how they are being trained, and say that its not how things work in the street. They get ****ed off and occasionally try to jump their trainers.

Its very amusing.

Especially the part where the street fighters get whooped on.

After getting sick of listening to the guys whine, the Pro decided to give each of them a shot at sparring. Each of the street fighters went down after one punch. They were sloppy, they fought like a "real fight", and they got smashed.

Now, why is this?

Could it possibly be, because "real fights", street fights, generally take place between two skill-less individuals. So, when you take a real fight, and look at it from that angle, yep, I dont fight like a "real fighter". I look like the guy who puts "real fighters" down with one hit.

[Order]

BTW Archangel, How about we just start with you, and work our way up? Hows that for an idea?

[Archangel]

What in the h e l l are you babbling about??? When did I ever say that MMA could stop bullets.

"BTW Archangel, How about we just start with you, and work our way up? Hows that for an idea?"

It's obvious by your that English is your second language, because I have no idea what this sentence is supposed to mean. Or maybe you were drunk on Saki when you were writing, I don't know.

Wierdo

[Merryprankster]

Nope, but I do plan on learning some gun fu.

Sorry you didn't ruffle my feathers much. I freely admit that weapons is a serious hole in my game.

As for the sparring question--I wasn't insinuating that unmatchable didn't spar. I was trying to discover what his training consisted of. It's kind of important we all work from a common definition. I learned my girlfriend and I were talking about something completely different when we talked about "sparring," so I think it's a valid question.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by omegapoint


Gun Fu is the best. I was trained courtesy of my pops and USAF SpecOps (no rhyming intended).

I recently read something about USAF SpecOps - that blew my mind.

The fact of the matter is that most people are average. Mediocrity abounds in the world. That's how nature works.


Remember "Dirrelects of Dialect" by 3rd Bass?
"Some individuals are never satisfied by the static standards set by the masses - the masses have always been lethargic. They are unable to achieve greatness, because it's beyond them to even....comprehend greatness"

"The great will always soar above the medial....they create while others destroy"


One more thing, if you think that MMAs is the answer to your lack of fighting knowledge, then better for me and the other traditionalists who know whas'sup. Just like Whodini said you're a " jack of all trades and master of none" . You'll figure that out when you're on your 2nd reconstructive knee surgery, hehehe. Herniated disks are fun. As is Parkinsonian Syndrome and organic brain damage. Got any cauliflower for the salad, geniuses!!!

I doubt this was directed at me, but I don't think alot of people think that way. Now, I think we both can agree that you will become effective faster over the short term with mma than you will with a traditional style. Over the long run, it really won't matter much, except in old age IF the traditional stylist is training in an internal style. A typical MMA will have a skill set similar to the following: muay thai, judo and bjj. These are 3 arts that blend together, as they fill in holes that the other styles have. This is no different than the CMA who trained under various sifus. It's not uncommon for someone to train in tai chi, longfist and shuai chiao - traditional MMA.

As for the jack of all trades, master of none, that doesn't necessarily apply. alot of the MMA guys I know are more like jack of all trades, master of one or two. they already have an extensive background in something, like judo, and they corsstrain in some type of sumbission style and some standup style to round themselves out.

[chingei]

Originally posted by Archangel

Or maybe you were drunk on Saki when you were writing, I don't know.



what is "Saki"?

[Le nOObi]

Thats a good point seven stars makes i know and know of more TMA masters who have studied more than one art then those who have studied just one.

[SevenStar]

Another thought about the jack of all trades, master of none thing... Even if you were to master it all, how much would you actually use? there are like 64 recognized judo throws....while a black belt will know them all, I can guarantee you he doesn't use them all. he will use the ones he prefers, and ones he finds most useful to him. That being the case, the one who mastered all 64 techniques won't necessarily have an advantage over someone who has mastered 8, because chances are, he's drilled them repeatedly and become very adept at them. the master who knows all 64 but doesn't train them all on a regular basis will not be adept at the ones that he doesn't frequently train.

This can apply to any style with a mutlitude of techniques. There are probably many CMA masters that never use a bear claw, even though they know it. So even though he has the knowledge, what's he using it for, other than teaching (assuming that he does teach)?

I'm not saying don't master a style, but more that mastering a style doesn't guarantee any type of advantage.

[MA fanatic]

First of all, of course it is possible to kick a grappler in the head.
That had been done many times. All NHB proved was that by taking an equally trained pure grappler, and putting him in a ring with an equally trained pure striker, the grappler would win. NHB also proved that without the knowledge of grappling, you pretty much can't fight. Events like the UFC, PRIDE, IVC, are sort of like Olympics of the martial arts. Only the best of the best enter. There are numerous smaller events across the country where classical (traditional) martial artists still enter and pit their skills against other styles. So far, grapplers still dominate. In a recent Gadiator Challenge (actually you can purchase that one from Suncaust Video for 12.95$), two Kung Fu fighters were demolished. A pure Wing Chun Kung Fu guy fought a Muay Thai fighter who was strained by Bas Rutten (decent grappler as well). The WC guy tried his useless trapping and even the straight blast. He was picked apart standing up (with head kicks, elbows, knees and precision punches). The other Classical stylest who entered was from a Kung Fu school but described his style as Kempo. He was choked out by a mediocre grappler in less than 20 seconds. I trained in both Kung Fu, and TKD (for seven years in TKD/Hapkido...4 years Kung Fu). I can and have kicked grapplers in the head. However, for the last 4 years I have been training in bjj. When I'm taken down, I know how to hold my own. Prior to any grappling, all the stand up skills in the world wouldn't save me from a top notch grappler or a grappler who spent as many years grappling as I did stand up.
MA fanatic

[chingei]

Originally posted by MA fanatic
Prior to any grappling, all the stand up skills in the world wouldn't save me from a top notch grappler or a grappler who spent as many years grappling as I did stand up.
MA fanatic

Well said

[MA fanatic]

The reasons grapplers (who I believe are in fact traditional martial artists) do so well against strikers is because they fight like they train and train like they fight. Most traditional MA masters teach unproven techniques. They give history of some other masters using these techniques for combat purposes, yet fail to say who used what when, where, how and why? They go by legends. Legends which I'm sure existed, but if you travel through time will see that fights never took place the way they are described to have taken place. While traditional artists may spend years behind training wooden dummies, practicing strikes in mid air, controlled sparring, none contested prehearsed self defense techniques, drilling, forms, stances, etc. etc.....Grapplers just grapple. They grapple the entire class time with full resistance, all techniques being contested by their training partners. So when a grappler steps into the ring against a striker (especially from a traditional martial art), it's like putting a knife to melted butter. He has virtually no problem taking the striker down, controlling him, and finishing him. It is easier for a skilled grappler to take out a skilled striker in an NHB match, than to grapple his/her own training partners at a training hall. When a grappler (submission fighter) steps into the ring he has an arsenal of techniques he knows works. He knows they work because he used them thousands of times against multiple apponents who have contested his techniques. I'm amused when I see instructional videos by masters of arts like Kenpo, Wing Chun, Penkak Silat, (all on the market now) etc. etc. who claim to teach "anti grappling techniques." How can a none grappler teach anti grappling if he simply had never rolled on the mat? Also, these styles are routinely ripped to shreds in a one on one NHB match. Why not just learn some grappling and incorporate it into the system? Closed mindedness and belief in myths is what is destroying traditional martial arts. BTW, I'm not saying tradition is bad. Actually, the grappling styles are as straditional and have as rich a history as any "classical style." It is in fact good. All I'm saying is that most traditional masters are way too closed minded.
MA FANATIC

[MA fanatic]

I wrote an article once addressing the "Golden Age of Martial Arts." We're in it now. Wake up guys. At no point in history did anyone have the opportunity to train in as many styles, observe so many styles, compete against virtually any style, and learn from the greatest masters (via internete, video, seminars, etc. etc.) of various styles. I look in the phone book under martial arts and see Japanese, Brazilian, Chinese, Greek, Russian, Korean, African, Indonesian, etc. etc. worlds unite. If the masters of we read about had been living in our day, they would be grappling. They would laugh at modern classical masters who live in the past. Why? Because most legendary masters were inovaters but had limmited tools. Funakoshi would be grappling (actually in his book..Karate-do My Way of Life he talks about the importants of Okinawan wrestling). But, we still have those who believe in mystical powers, useless techniques and outdated theories. That amazes me.
MA fanatic

[SevenStar]

Back to the jack of all trades thing for a sec, I just happened to run across this on a bjj site - it kinda reiterates what I was saying above:

Now, with regard to core techniques, I can perform them equally on each side! By core techniques I mean this: "Techniques I use 90% of the time."

Here is a brief list of the core techniques I use 90% of the time:

Mount Escapes
bridge and roll
elbow/knee (two variations)
Side Mount Escapes
place in the guard (two variations)
go to the knees
Pass the Guard
under the leg (two variations)
over the leg (two variations)
Submissions
bent arm lock
triangle choke
As you can see, there are only twelve core techniques that I use. Being able to perform these twelve core techniques equally on both sides is an absolute must!

[Order]

Guys guys....

What you have to understand about valetudo and NHB competitions is that this guys are pros! They are not guys that do 1 or 2 hours of JJ or MT everyday; there is a structure to back these guys up! This guys train 6 to 7 hours daily, they are actually paid to train and get money everytime they win. MA fanatic let make a deal: You give me 3 thousand dollars every month, pay all my bills and give me the structure that I need, for 1 whole year, then I will fight the valetudo tournament you choose. Better to say, I will fight the person you choose.
You guys have to keep in mind that the valetudo universe doesn't reflect the reality of street fights. Half of the thing and techniques I train everyday, are forbidden in a valetudo environment. On the streets there is no referee, no doctor, no tapping and no second chance. On the streets there is only you and the mean mother fxxxxx that wants to kick your ass so bad that you might not be able to go home walking; in fact, you might not be able to go home at all.
So, what I want to ask you is: What the hell are you talking about? You come here and you try to tell me that valetudo competitions are real fight examples? What do you have in your heads besides air? How can you compare a controled competition environment to a street fight? You'd better tell me that you don't have any exeperience when it comes to street fight, because if this is the problem here, I would understand how can you talk so much sxxx. But if you guys do really know what is a real fight environment and still try to compare it with a valetudo environment, well that's really bad.
As for not having real sanda, sanshou (or whatever you wanna call it) or any kind of real sparring competition here in China, let me tell you something: I don't know, and more: I don't want to know. And even more: if you do know, please don't tell me. I don't fight in competitions and my people back in Brazil (Marcello) don't fight in competitions too. So, that means we don't fight, right? Wrong, we fight, and that's all we do. We fight our own guys, we fight other guys and we fight anyone that wants to fight. Of course I am not saying we win everybody/ As for now, we never lost, but that doesn't mean sxxx to me, cause people fight, people win and loose; that's the law of the universe; I really don't care. So if you want my opinion, not having competitions in China (unfortunately we do, I think) is in fact very good. Never forget that practice is what one makes out of it. If you wanna be a good fighter, go out there and fight as much as you can, now if you want to be a good tournament fighter, well then... And I am not saying here that you guys that go into tournaments are wrong. I am just saying the we don't like to do it, but we understand that people have different opinions about it and we respect theses opinions. The only thing that has to be cristal clear here is that Sanda or valetudo are not street fighting, and are not even close to it.
Now Ma fanatic(again you) as for saying that the guys from the past enter into a lot of tournaments and fought a lot is a mistake, for they were good because they fought a lot, not because they went into tournaments.
Anyway. honestly speaking, I don't need your support, as for giving me money to fight. I train hard, and I train a lot. Now I am not arrogant, but most of all I trust myself and I trust the art that I practice. When the time come for me to fight no mather who, who knows whats gonna happen? I might win or I might loose. No matter what happens, I am gonna hit you, gonna hit you real hard. And just here between you and me man, that's tne bad thing about those XY guys. They hit hard, and they only have to hit once.

[chingei]

Originally posted by Order
Guys guys....

What you have to understand about valetudo and NHB competitions is that this guys are pros! They are not guys that do 1 or 2 hours of JJ or MT everyday; there is a structure to back these guys up! This guys train 6 to 7 hours daily, they are actually paid to train and get money everytime they win. MA fanatic let make a deal: You give me 3 thousand dollars every month, pay all my bills and give me the structure that I need, for 1 whole year, then I will fight the valetudo tournament you choose. Better to say, I will fight the person you choose.
You guys have to keep in mind that the valetudo universe doesn't reflect the reality of street fights. Half of the thing and techniques I train everyday, are forbidden in a valetudo environment. On the streets there is no referee, no doctor, no tapping and no second chance. On the streets there is only you and the mean mother fxxxxx that wants to kick your ass so bad that you might not be able to go home walking; in fact, you might not be able to go home at all.
So, what I want to ask you is: What the hell are you talking about? You come here and you try to tell me that valetudo competitions are real fight examples? What do you have in your heads besides air? How can you compare a controled competition environment to a street fight? You'd better tell me that you don't have any exeperience when it comes to street fight, because if this is the problem here, I would understand how can you talk so much sxxx. But if you guys do really know what is a real fight environment and still try to compare it with a valetudo environment, well that's really bad.
As for not having real sanda, sanshou (or whatever you wanna call it) or any kind of real sparring competition here in China, let me tell you something: I don't know, and more: I don't want to know. And even more: if you do know, please don't tell me. I don't fight in competitions and my people back in Brazil (Marcello) don't fight in competitions too. So, that means we don't fight, right? Wrong, we fight, and that's all we do. We fight our own guys, we fight other guys and we fight anyone that wants to fight. Of course I am not saying we win everybody/ As for now, we never lost, but that doesn't mean sxxx to me, cause people fight, people win and loose; that's the law of the universe; I really don't care. So if you want my opinion, not having competitions in China (unfortunately we do, I think) is in fact very good. Never forget that practice is what one makes out of it. If you wanna be a good fighter, go out there and fight as much as you can, now if you want to be a good tournament fighter, well then... And I am not saying here that you guys that go into tournaments are wrong. I am just saying the we don't like to do it, but we understand that people have different opinions about it and we respect theses opinions. The only thing that has to be cristal clear here is that Sanda or valetudo are not street fighting, and are not even close to it.
Now Ma fanatic(again you) as for saying that the guys from the past enter into a lot of tournaments and fought a lot is a mistake, for they were good because they fought a lot, not because they went into tournaments.
Anyway. honestly speaking, I don't need your support, as for giving me money to fight. I train hard, and I train a lot. Now I am not arrogant, but most of all I trust myself and I trust the art that I practice. When the time come for me to fight no mather who, who knows whats gonna happen? I might win or I might loose. No matter what happens, I am gonna hit you, gonna hit you real hard. And just here between you and me man, that's tne bad thing about those XY guys. They hit hard, and they only have to hit once.

This sounds like a long-winded version of the "my ****'s too deadly for competition" prevarication commonly relied upon by folks who know they wouldn't stand a chance in competition but still need to do some chest-thumpin'.

kill a lot of people in practice this week, champ?

[Ryu]

I was actually with him in the beginning until the "forbidden" techniques stuff...

"Saki" ? :D I believe "sakki" is the sixth sense of the ninja? :D

Though some people say people who believe that drink way too much sake...

Ryu

[rogue]

Me too. But is there professional Dim Mak, amatuar Dim Mak or hobby Dim mak?