Kung Fu "Reverting to Kickboxing" - rantish

[fa_jing]

I just wanted to take this opportunity to de-bunk a phrase that I've seen tossed around here more than a few times.

#1, how can you "revert" to something you've never studied?

What is sometimes meant is: a martial artist reverting to sloppy, undefined, chancy, desperate kicks and punches, with generally very little defense. Not at all like good Kickboxing.

Other times, the aforementioned phrase is meant as: "In the context of a sport environment, I couldn't distinguish his Kung Fu striking from Kickboxing."

Now, if an art #1, that was designed for battle, is applied to a sport with rules and gear, and you watch the result of this in action, and, wonder of wonders, the art reaches mostly the same conclusions as art #2, that was specifically designed with this gear and these rules in mind, what does that say about art #1?

That it follows generally solid physical principles.
That practioners of this art are well equipped to adapt it to fit their surroundings.
The art has a mental base, as well as a physical base.
Etc.

Now, let's look at San Shou in China. If it were true that San Shou players ditched their Chinese-style mechanics for Western-style mechanics, in entirety, then it would be correct to criticize them as being no different from Kickboxing. But, I highly doubt that this is the case, given that some Chinese -style mechanics are
perfectly adaptable to this kind of environment. Waterdragon knows what I'm talking about, anyone who's used Kung-Fu in the ring will know what I'm talking about.

To re-iterate, students do not "revert" to a style they have never studied. My other point is that punching and kicking are good, this is half of Kung Fu, if you punch and kick frequently and well in a sport environment, that's good, commendable. If you look like you don't know what your doing, that's not good. If you look like you are doing another style, it's because you were taught that other style at some point. Some people are taught flat-fisted punching first in their lives, and haven't broken the habit, maybe have no desire to.

Anybody with me here?

[apoweyn]

fa jing,

yep, i'm with ya.

it irritates me to no end when people pass off bad sparring as kickboxing. why is it not enough to say it was bad sparring? or go the extra mile and specify that it was just ineffectual punches and kicks? why inaccurately characterize it as being merely kickboxing?

a good kickboxer has to understand a lot of very refined concepts, and to refer to poorly executed kungfu as being kickboxing is an insult to that accomplishment.

nice post fa jing.


stuart b.

[scotty1]

Very nice post indeed Fa Jing.

I agree. As a kickboxer, had I ever thought of it like that, it would have p!ssed me off.

[Mutant]

Good post Fa-jing, I completely agree with what your saying.

Good fundamentals are very adaptable. Effective core techniques and basics are what get the job done and hold up under pressure in a variety of situations. Just because they may not see stereotypical stylistic movements does not mean that CMA fundamentals are not there working. People often seem to look for and focus on the exotic and mysical aspects of their style and look down on the basics, stating that it looks like 'mere' kickboxing and feeling like they have better techniques of a higher pedigree. Often their basics s#ck and then they get crushed when and if they are put to the test.

Of course that doesnt mean that an experienced CMA practitioner will automatically make a good kickboxer or ring fighter, the key word here is adaptable; it takes lots of hard work and focused training. Some people seem to get this part confused. I think it gives credit to CMA's potential and effectiveness to see that a well trained San Shou fighter can compete very successfully with tried and true ring sports such as Kickboxers and Muay Tai under their rules and win a respectable percentage of the time.

[guohuen]

I think the phrase " Bad secondary schoolyard fighting would be more appropriate".

[fa_jing]

need a few more views. :)

[No_Know]

Some people call Muay Thai Kick boxing. Kick boxing is the name of a sport which combines boxing type moves and kicks like those of Okinawan, Japanese or Korean (martial arts). K-1 probablly allows Muay Thai type kicks.

Americans name things descrptively--New York, South Dakota, golden oaks, Silver Spring, snake eyes, fire arm. The British do it. The Native American Indians--Running Bear, Two Feathers, White Elk... The Chinese--Cloud HandsMantis style, Snake style...

Someone could look at Ying Jow P'ai, Southern Praying Mantis Ba Gua, and Southern Shaolin forms and wouldn't know the names or styles or systems but might know them under the banner of Kung-Fu.

While a sport got the name of a description. The description was was still used as a seperate entity. In my circels people say Kleenex when referring to facial tissue. Or Xeroxx when talking photocopiers... I think that these are reverse of what I'm saying but you get the idea. Same sounding-different meaning.

The meaning of punch like strikes and use of legs that might resemble a motion called kick it might be called kickboxing.

And relevant to mutant mention, the long perhaps sometimes exagerated movements of fighting Kung-Fus gets abreviated in use. Keeping principles and tactics it does approach boxing like maneuves and has kicks.

[HuangKaiVun]

Does it even matter, kickboxing or not?

Either you hit or get hit.

[Gabriel]

LOL..but..err...what if i used to be a karateka, and a TKDer before that? Then I can "revert" yes? Sifu always points out how a certain stance or move, or stomp :P is karate and to get it the hell outta his kwoon. :D

[HuangKaiVun]

If you are kickboxing and throw a quick right knockout jab the way Muhammad Ali does, you're DOING kung fu.

That would be the transitional "Golden Rooster Stands on One Leg" pose in the "Tan Tui" set of Northern Shaolin - and from what I hear Wing Lam's students use it exactly this way.

The bouncing footwork? That's Monkey step. It's hard to catch too. Monkey itself utilizes this step, and even Drunken Boxing does as well. 7-star Mantis has this move built in, and Choy Li Fut and Tongbei type styles use the bouncing footwork because it WORKS.

Or how about the round rolling jing that boxers use to hit the speed bag - or opponent's heads on occasion? That's "Chain Punching" from Wing Chun's Siu Lum Tao. The low reverse punch that boxers use - that's Hsing I's "Tsuan Chuan" (I think) from the 5 Elements set.

Kicking itself? Kickboxers regularly jam the kicks of their opponents with their knees or legs. Well, that's the 7-star step that features the toe pointing up. Yang Taijiquan also practices this step, especially before going into movements. That's no surprise, as it's often necessary to prevent an opponent from kicking you in midmovement and so you have to preempt his offense with one of your own.

And often "sloppy, undefined, chancy, desperate kicks and punches, with generally very little defense" is enough to keep a more dangerous opponent at bay. Survival is ENOUGH 99.9999% of the time.

[Gabriel]

Got some right stuff about Mantis in there Hung Vai. I think the point you are trying to make, and its a point well made, is many styles use variations of the same thing under different names. After all, we only have 2 hands and 2 feet right? But styles have their different accents, I would definately say. :)

[SifuAbel]

I said this for years!!!

Good Job!! Well said!!

:cool: :D :cool:

[scotty1]

Don't tell me we all agree. :eek:

Where's the fun in that?

[guohuen]

"Please Captain, not in front of the Klingons."

[Unmatchable]

It is very common among practitioners of Chinese Martial Arts to fight as practicing Kickboxing, and this occurs because they do not master the style they train. Chinese Martial Arts have nothing has to do with this type of fight technique.

[joedoe]

Once you lose the ability to use open hand techniques (like when you put on boxing gloves) your arsenal is mostly limited to punches and kicks ... well, knees and elbows as well I guess. Grabbing is also harder.

So what are you left with? Something that looks like kickboxing. Doesn't mean it is any better or worse, just different.

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by Unmatchable
It is very common among practitioners of Chinese Martial Arts to fight as practicing Kickboxing, and this occurs because they do not master the style they train. Chinese Martial Arts have nothing has to do with this type of fight technique.

CMA doesn't punch and kick???

[SifuAbel]

Fa jing,

Your initial post said it best. There is nothing to revert to. There are only sloppy fighters and good fighters.

I keep asking these questions for years.
What is kung fu supposed to fight like? Is it supposed to look like the movies? Is it supposed to conform verbatim to the forms? The answer is no.

Will you use elements from your form? Absolutely.
Can you transfer your skills to spar with set rules? Absolutely.

Do you see good footwork from skilled fighters in san shou? Absolutely.

Is it still kung fu when you have sharp skills in an event with strict rules that limits contact and usage of technique? absolutely. High skill is, after all, what kung fu means.
Just because you can't do an arm or knee break, or sweep the guys back foot(like in some events), or do any soft tissue manipulations(clawing), or any number of things, stops it being kung fu.

Does kung fu have punching and kicking? Absolutely, and in endless combinations. Its not all butterfly palms and cat stances. LOL!

Does it have to be a slop fest? absolutely not!

[SifuAbel]

ttt

[red5angel]

I think mainly the problem is that bad sparring often resembles bad kickboxing in some peoples opinions because they fall to sloppy punching and kicking. For someone who undertsands the art they are watching they could probably pick out sloppy techniques and differentiate.

[gazza99]

The kickboxing issue is a result of schools sparring/competing too soon, the students mold the technque subconsciously in an incorrect manner before the system is learnt to an appreciable degree.


Gary

[LEGEND]

GARY...but I feel that students need to compete to deal with the psychological pressure of sparring...even amauteur boxers first look like crap...but those that stay and continue to fight will eventually look more and more crisp! This issue of sparring too soon is not really an issue. Sparring is a valuable experience...in terms of bad technique...your coach and can bring u back in the gym and work with you on that. But until then he can't fix what is broken if he doesn't see it.

[gazza99]

Go back to school.....
look up the term-"State induced learning"
Sparring too soon Is an issue, get it right, then spar, then fix what breaks under stress!

PS your ****ing up my post marithon, I almost have whole page...
cease...and desist....:)

[apoweyn]

gary,


Originally posted by gazza99
The kickboxing issue is a result of schools sparring/competing too soon, the students mold the technque subconsciously in an incorrect manner before the system is learnt to an appreciable degree.


Gary


i actually think the opposite is true. it's an indication that sparring has taken place too late. if a technique is learned, then drilled, then practiced in sparring, then a person can learn to use it in a fairly random environment from the get go. but a lot of schools teach the student a large body of knowledge first, then throw them into sparring so they can learn to apply it all at the same time.

that just doesn't seem very practical to me. there's always a discrepancy between ideal performance and real execution. better to reconcile that discrepancy as we go along, rather than trying to reconcile it all at the same time.

internalizing more of the style before sparring just leaves you with more to reconcile on the mat. seems like a bad training strategy to me. but that's just my opinion.


stuart b.

[Merryprankster]

What Ap said. I couldn't imagine learning up to a senior blue belt's worth of technique, then being told to go spar for the first time.

Nothing I knew would work and I'd look like a fish flopping around out there.

[apoweyn]

Exactly. Sparring is the process of making the logical leaps between the ideal technique and the applicable technique. I think it's far more productive to concentrate on doing that one technique at a time (e.g., sparring using nothing but the jab, or the round kick, or defense only, or takedowns, or whatever).


stuart b.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Definitely, Apo. I heard several masters who, when talking about their own training said something along "we'd practice sparring only with one punch for weeks, one the attacker, one the defender, always the same punch and same level...then we would add a punch...or mix another strike level in..." They'd do that for weeks, even months, before adding kicks (only on level at a time), then mixing it with other techniques.
Of course, it was VERY long, and I guess boring, but definitely, the guys could punch, kick and wrestle after that...if you go sparring right away, chances are you'll always fight in a sloppy way.
It also reminds me of Wong Kiew Kit saying "nowadays they teach fighting by sparring...but back in the days, sparring was there as a test to verify that we could fight, not the mean of teaching fight".

[apoweyn]

well, i think sparring at an early level is good. i think it should be used as a more mindful training tool though. it tends to get used without much direction. it should be used, in my opinion, to methodically progress from new technique to tried-and-true technique. right from the get go.


stuart b.

[fa_jing]

I agree with Ap, too, My sifu has always told us that it is best to just concentrate on 1 or two things you would like to work on, each round. For learning purposes. I found that this was the only way I could actually execute a technique appropriately and correctly, in the beginning. I'm still gradually increasing the number of reliable techniques in my arsenal. Also, I agree that sparring should happen after the first few months, it is necessary to learn general things first - keep your hands up, eyes open, don't turn your back, what is the toll that it takes on your endurance. You need to have these aspects covered before you can concentrate on correct execution of techniques. So there is alot to be learned doing sparring and there is no reason to put it off, as long as your teacher corrects your mistakes. It also helps if you spar with your teacher or someone far better than you - having too much of an ego about who "wins or loses" or "getting" the other guy, will interfere with the learning process.
On the other hand, being in an actual competition is good too, for learning about that aspect - but not the place to be building your techniques.

-FJ

[fa_jing]

ttt

:D

[rogue]

Lordy, you must have used a back-hoe to dig this one back up.

[fa_jing]

It came up in a search and I was reminded of one of my better days hehe just making sure the next generation of KFO readers is with it... We seem to be experiencing a high rate of turnover...

Seriuosly , we need to get things back on track around here so we can achieve the potential of this forum. Enough bandering about. ;)

[MightyB]

When filming the History of Martial Arts for the Discovery channel, the crew came upon a young monk practicing what looked like western boxing. When they asked him about it he affirmed their observations. He was practicing western boxing. His response was typically kung fu arrogant, but worth mentioning... he said something like "kung fu is more sophisticated and deadly, but boxing promotes basic and effective combat skills." ;)

[ricksitterly]

in regards to the sparring issue- is either side wrong?

1. You can learn techniques for months ( or even years ) before finally stepping into a sparring ring and learning how to apply them. Of coarse, there will be a period of time where you must adjust and learn how to apply the techniques in a live sparring scenario and how to time them.

2. Then again, you could simply throw a new student into a sparring ring with other skilled practitioners, and he will inevitably learn (to SOME extent ) how to dodge/ block/ and counter their attacks and gets a feel for their openings and weaknesses...and basically how to use his body in combat. As he picks up new techniqes, he will already have developed timing, footwork, reflexes, etc and other skills that are naturally learned in the ring. Where as when techniques are taught first, the student must wait till he's "ready to spar" to learn those ring skills. I imagine that teaching sparring first would avoid the "reverting to sloppy technique" scenario that often happens in the ring ( during tournaments or just sparring sessions).

The second one is a much more painful process for the student but it DOES work. It will put you to the test and if you aren't strong willed you will end up quitting ( cause your tired of getting beat up). This is how I was taught in both tae kwon do and jiu jitsu.... by getting my @ss kicked on a regular basis.
Of coarse you must have people to spar that are much better than you. I dont believe having beginners sparring beginners to be as good of a learning process.


So.... um.. yeah I think both ways can be effective in teaching. To say that a certain method of teaching just DOESNT WORK is ignorant... it depends on the student.

[apoweyn]

those aren't the only two options though. there's a middle ground.

on the one side, you spend years practicing technique and cementing what's "right" in your head before getting into sparring and realizing that your conception of "right" will have to withstand some tweaking. or you'll be trapped by that previous training.

on the other side, you just throw a person in and hope they figure it out by trial and error.

the middle ground is that you introduce each tool and go through a progression. you learn jabbing in the air. then on a bag maybe. then with some focus mitt drills. then more freeform (dynamic) focus mitt drills. then some scripted sparring drills (i'm going to try and tag you with a jab-cross combo; you're going to try and interrupt that combo with jabs of your own), then some less scripted sparring (i'm going to come after you at a slightly slower than normal pace, and you're going to concentrate on working the jab to keep distance, interrupt rhythm, create openings, etc.), then free sparring.

take a technique and run it through all of the steps so that it goes from being a new idea to an applicable tool. repeat as necessary.


stuart b.

[SevenStar]

They're not referring to using sloppy technique, necessarily; they are referring to not using the principles of your style. For example, if you train bagua, you shouldn't go into the ring doing backfists and roundhouse kicks. However, that should not be deemed as "reverting to kickboxing" because you can't revert to something you've never trained in.

[Braden]

There's backfists in bagua! ;p

[apoweyn]

hang on. does that mean i was reverting to bagua the other night during sparring?

...

it's cold in here. and there are wolves after me.



stuart b. (clearly been sitting here about three hours too long)

[Oso]

ok, so when do you think 'free' sparring should start?

I don't start em for 9-12 months.

lot's of two man drilling from the get go:

first preset attacks and responses

then preset attacks w/ variable responses

then variable attacks w/ variable responses

first stages of free sparring are light contact at slower speeds
with no pads.

middle stages are medium/hard contact at medium to full speeds
w/ pads.

upper stages are controlled hard contact (light to groin, eyes,
throat, temple and spine) w/o pads.



good topic, well worth recycling.

I will add that in the beginning stages of free sparring I don't
correct movement and technique until the student has gotten
comfortable with the situation. So, my beginning students
basically look like the kickboxer paradigm.

[fa_jing]

to clarify, your beginner students look sloppy when they begin to spar (didn't we all). Sloppy kickboxing is indistinguishable from sloppy Kung Fu. Good kickboxing is only distinguishable from good kung fu striking, IN A SPORT context, to an observer with considerable expertise in either style.

At the same time, your students bring with them their preconceptions about what their going to do. For some of an Occidental background, this may be based mostly on boxing they've seen on TV and the Schoolyard. Other beginner students may have a preconception based on watching Kung Fu movies, and jump around and try flashy stuff. Or you might have a student who wrestled in high school. It usually takes a while to empty your cup...and to learn something on top of that and be effective with it, at least 6 months to a year.