Practicing Kicks - Part Duex

[Sleemie]

I should have included this in my first practicing kicks post, but just now thought of it. Besides, you guys seem to love talking Kung Fu so I'm sure you don't mind reading yet another one of my deep and profound posts. :cool:

Okay.....in class right now since I've only been to like two classes, we're only doing straight kicks, front snap kicks and inside/outside crescent kicks. But, I want to move ahead on my own and begin working on roundhouse kicks and side kicks. I already know the mechanics of how to perform them, but due to lack of practice, flexibility, leg strength, and anything else you can think of...I can't really perform them up to par. So, how should I proceed with practicing them. I don't feel comfortable trying to practice them at full speed because my flexibility and proper form is not there. What's the best way to practice them?

Should I do them real slow and support myself with my hands, or should I struggle through and avoid supporting myself with my hands just to get used to doing it without support?
or
Should I do them at medium speed?
or
Should I start with just trying to hold my leg out in the position I would end up at the end of the kick to build up my strength.
or
some combination of all of the above.

I'm sure I'll get differing opinions on here, but that's good because it gives me differing perspectives and more to think about.

[dragontounge2]

Why are you already doing kicks??
look into that wing chun class!

but for the kicks practice slowly with proper form, speed will come.

[Sleemie]

We started doing kicks the very first day of class.

On that school, when I call the number I found on the internet I can't get through, when I called directory assistance they didn't have a listing for that school.

I'm not sure that I want to change schools, but I would like to find a school and check it out. Hung Fut is a pretty cool style...I've always been a fan of the Shaolin Temple styles, Hung Gar, Fut Gar, Crane, Praying Mantis, Snake, etc.

Have any of you Wing Chun folks seen the Bourne Identity yet? I wanted to ask if he was doing Wing Chun in that movie. He went off to a martial arts school for like 6 months of training. The moves he was doing looked like Wing Chun type moves.

[dragontounge2]

that question was in some other thread too. but its not wing chun

[wooha]

One of my old teachers used to say "Technique, speed, power", meaning you should develop your skills in that order.

It's helpful to practise the kicks slowly at first and build up the speed as you get better. I think you end up with better kicks that way. Don't worry about the height of your kicks, just concentrate on technique. Try to do it as much as possible without support in order to develop your balance. I'll admit I use a chair or wall every now and then, but that's usually to build up strength while holding my leg out.

As always, experiment with what works for you.

Mind you, if you haven't been taught these kicks, you want to make sure you're performing them correctly. You might find yourself having to unlearn some bad habits at a later stage - that's not always easy once your muscle memory has got used to a movement.

[Sleemie]

Are you saying it'll actually help me to practice barely above waist high roundhouse and side kicks? I would figure what's that point, but as you said, I guess the technique for a waist high is the same as for a head high, and the heigth, speed and power will come with time.

[wooha]

As I'm sure dragontounge and a lot of the guys here are about to say, if you ever end up having to use them, you're gonna want to keep your kicks that low anyway. A roundhouse or sidekick doesn't always have to be high. There are plenty of good targets below waist and knee height.

Besides, if you're not flexible enough yet, there's not much else you can do but practise the technique low. Your technique will suffer if you're trying to push your limits too far while learning.

[dragontounge2]

thats right wooha. If you try to kick some one in the head its the same as punching some one on their feet. Kick in the head when thier down;).
Does your school practice over the navel kicks. if you do its not a practical style and would deffinetly not recommend you use that crap on the street unless you want to get kicked in the balls. have you done a form yet? what about stances? punches? whats up?

[wooha]

Well I have to admit, I'm constantly flinging my legs head hight and above, but what can I say, I'm a Capoeirista. :D

I personally enjoy kicking high, although I doubt I'd do it in a confrontation. Plus I like the idea of one day performing martial arts in an entertainment context.

[Sleemie]

Well....I like to consider myself a complete beginner because that way I have no expectations and no disappointments if I don't progress as quickly, but as a teenager I did take Kung Fu for a little while (Praying Mantis and Hung Gar) and I had an old school type instructor who really believed in strong stances and performing your forms over and over and over and over, I actually took it long enough to enter a tournament doing forms and win a 3rd place trophy, so....the movements and stances of kung fu feel very familiar to me. However, I haven't practiced in about 16-17 years, so my body is way out of shape for Kung Fu.

Right now, I've been in my new school for only 2 lessons, and what I've done/learned in class so far are the horse stance, bow and arrow stance and cat stance, about 3-4 basic punching/blocking techniques, and some basic kicks, front kick, snap kick, and inside/outside crescent kick.

Personally, I see no problem with learning kicks at this stage of the game, whether I was a complete newby or with my background. I mean by the time I get to the forms they will include kicks and it'll be better to already have the kicks down instead of learning to kick when you get to that stage. Besides, in my opinion, basic kicks are not terribly difficult or taxing to perform where you need a whole lot of preparation and background to build up to.

[dragontounge2]

Wing Chun

[Sleemie]

Hung Fut

[PLCrane]

I was taught to warm up by doing kicks to a four-count. 1. raise the knee to chamber 2. extend the leg 3. return to chamber 4. put the foot down. You can hold each position momentarily or for awhile.

If you've done this stuff before and got out of it, it's especially important to do moves slowly at first. Your nervous system might remember where everything goes, but your muscles aren't loose enough to get there without tearing something. I've done that, and it's not fun.

[No_Know]

Nice that you like that School. Really nice.

In class the pace is part of the training. Use a support for now. This way you get the kicks better...the mechanics. Do it right and the power will be there. So will the speed. It comes. With concious effort--sweat.


I personally like the techniques you mentioned over the side kick. They all have niceness to me though.

Do the kicks. It will come to you, how to do the kicks at that moment. Each way is an aspect and each aspect goes into each kick~.

Plus, when you do the kicks like the System trains, it conditions your hands and there are likely other benefits. Try for a perfect circle when doing the crescent (lotus) kicks. Go-Go-Go. :-)

[Kungfu boy]

My most painful stretching experience was in a capoeria class. You guys are crazy man, that stuff hurts. I went to a couple classes in Houston and loved it. Couldn't continue though due to the driving distance. About an hour drive, in a very unreliable car. Want to pick it up again sometime though...

[wooha]

:D Heh heh.

Yeah, we're crazy, we like it that way.

Here's hoping a Capoeira club turns up around your way sometime soon.

[Kungfu boy]

Yeah I hope one pops up too. The guy says he'll drive out here if I can get some students together, but I'm having trouble doing that.... I still ginga occassionally and do the stretches also.

How long did it take you to get used to doing it? Were you flexible to begin with?

Later Dude

[wooha]

I'd already practised several other martial arts before I started Capoeira, so I had no real problem with flexibility. What took a long time was learning how to make the movements flow together and how to move to the rythm.

Definitely try to get some students together and get that class started. There must be some people around your way that would be up for it.

[Sleemie]

Okay okay...I wasn't gonna ask, but you guys keep talking about it....what the freak is Capoeira?

[dragontounge2]

Sleemie, why dont you try to spar with a wing chun guy in about 1 year, he has to be the same level as you though, I think you will cange your mind.

[Sleemie]

Can you do me a favor, then...I've tried to find a school in my area, but have had no luck. Since you're in that circle, do you think you could find a school in my area? Maybe through one of the associations or something. I'm in the Northern Virginia area, specifically Fairfax. I can go with just about any area inside of Washington, DC, and SOME parts of Maryland, but I'm not willing to travel too far. I've already gotta travel 25 miles one way during rush hour traffic to my school, and I'm not willing to go any further than that.

[wooha]

Hey, choosing a martial art is a very personal thing. Just cause wing chun works for you doesn't mean it's gonna be the greatest thing ever in Sleemie's life. Leave the dude alone to make his own choice.

Sleemie,

Capoeira is an Afro-Brazilian mix of martial arts, dance, acrobatics, music and culture. I'd go into more detail, but there's countless websites out there with better information than I could bring up right now. If you're curious do a search.

[dragontounge2]

I know wooha, but he should first explore some of his options, im not trying to push anything on you what are your reasons for take a MA sleemie?ps. I will lock into WC schools in your area.

[Sleemie]

that was plenty of info, wooha. I just wanted to know basically what it was. Thanx

why am I taking martial arts? a number of reasons, and I can't really say which one is at the top:

1. I took Kung Fu for a couple of years as a kid and the last time I practiced I was probably around 20 or so and I've always felt like it was something I yearned to do but just never seemed like the right time or had strong enough motivation. It's kind of like it got in my soul. I chose Hung Fut because it was the most similar style to what I learned as a kid, the classic, southern shaolin styles.

2. I want to have a physically fit lifestyle, and especially as I'm getting older I don't want my body to start breaking down on me and not have the energy to do things in life, so I figured what better way then with something that I'd been yearning for anyway.

3. Self-confidence. Even though most of us will never have to get in to a physical fight in our adult lives, just KNOWING that if I had to that I could take care of my business gives a certain air of self-confidence and security, especially when it comes to the idea of protecting my woman (even though I don't have one now) and family (have two kids).

4. My 6 year old son is taking Karate, and watching him in class reminds me of what i'm missing (although I hate karate) and I figured that when he get's older and better it would be a thing we can do together, spar and workout together and stuff.

I do like the look of Wing Chun because of the techniques and hand movements...it looks like it's a lot more practicle in terms of fighting and self defense. It also looks like it's something that you can apply in a fighting situation a lot sooner than my Hung Fut. Maybe not in a tournament, which I don't care about, but in real life, which is more important to me. So, although I like my hung fut style, I'm open to checking out a wing chun school to get a better feel for it. Not saying I'll change, but am open to checking it out.

That pretty much sums it up....

[dragontounge2]

Hung fut would be great for all of those things, but be careful not to have false confidence. I emailed 2 schools in your area and they are not getting through so im not sure whats going on with that. I dont like the lineage that is in your area though I saw a pic of him doing a leg scoop and it was not proper. just one lesson of wing chun will show you some appliable skills.

[Sleemie]

I know Wing Chun cannot be mastered or perfected throuhg video/books, but can one at least gain some useful knowledge and techniques from the video, particularly someone who already has some experience with Kung Fu.

[guohuen]

I seem to remember a good gong fu school on connecticut ave. in kensington, don't remember the style though.

[dragontounge2]

Yes I would recommend videos though, I have seen only 1 wing chun book its not very good.

[Sleemie]

Hey guohuen, guess what....

That's my school. It's Tai Yim's Hung Fut School.

[Sleemie]

any particular videos you can recommend. There's a lot of stuff out there and I'm sure some of it is crap.

[No_Know]

"...though I saw a pic of him doing a leg scoop and it was not proper."

dragontongue2, I went to the gallery of the website of the School Sleemie currently was. I saw three rows of pictures- five across the first row, five across the second row and four across the third row. The closest thing that might be perceived as a leg sweep was the second row's first picture--right leg/foot forward, left arm/palm forward.

With the arm out front and the position of the leg...why is it obviously a leg sweep as you've said? It seems to me more suggestive of a kick stoper/kick jammer or knocking out a knee or pressing a knee-in or deflecting a kick.

[dragontounge2]

you misunderstood I was talking about the wing chun school.

[No_Know]

Thank you for pointing that-out.

[dragontounge2]

heres a link wait for the pics to load and scroll down to where you see the one about Bulgaria its on the right. His arm is to low he is in a wrong stance the opponents leg is not high enough due to the low arm he is to close. and is not on gaurd. But this could just be a bad pic. http://cache.enic.cc/ads/adbox5.html never mind wrong link. hold on

[Sleemie]

I don't know if this link will work, but I just ordered this video. If the link doesn't work, the name of the video is "Wing Chun - Science of In-Fighting" and they have reviews, etc. on Amazon.com.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/6305884129/qid=1024503944/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/102-8222461-2567300

[dragontounge2]

good choice thats my grand master.

[Sleemie]

cool beans....I haven't even seen the tape yet, but for the reviews and the price I'm disappointed that he never came out with the follow up tape that was mentioned. If I stick with this tape and follow through with it I'll have to look for a decent follow up that's not too expensive.

[dragontounge2]

here you go. http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/winchunservo.html

[Sleemie]

Thanx...

I guess I'll use my 16 year old son as a guinea pig, and maybe he can pick up some things along the way.

I wonder if my school will have a problem with my practicing Wing Chun techniques on their wooden dummy. Not so much with me using the dummy, but the fact that it's not a style taught in the school.

[dragontounge2]

Just beat all their arses if they say some thing to you.;)

[Sleemie]

that place has got some really cool looking videos that I would love to learn some forms from. I need to work on what I"ve got for now, though...which is my school, my Qigong book and my Wing Chun video. I can see working on all of those at once. I'm not really learning a whole lot in school now cuz most of it is building up my foundation for good stances and getting the kicking and punching down, so working in the Qigong and a little Wing Chun shouldn't be too difficult.

[dragontounge2]

sounds like a good idea.

[No_Know]

"I'm not really learning a whole lot in school now cuz most of it is building up my foundation for good stances and getting the kicking and punching down..."


So (needle-and-thread), you think that building up a good foundation for good stances and getting the kicking and punching down is not really a whole lot?

[Kristoffer]

Someone asked about the style Matt Damon does in Bourne Identity. He said on Jay Leno that he trained in philipino martial art KALI. "it was vicious" :) Pretty cool, can't wait to see it.

[Sleemie]

What I meant was that it's not a lot mentally to learn and remember, but believe me, physically it is kickin my butt, and it does take up some time cuz I practice at home to get everything down.

As I think about it...I have been wondering how I would work everything in, particularly the Qigong because I basically want to work out when I work out, whether it's Qigong or Kung Fu, so I don't know if it's ideal or not, but the Qigong is going to be done either immediately before or after working out, whichever way is best to go with that. I'm not looking in to developing any iron palm or stomach or anything that serious, just to help with my internal strength, energy and health.

[No_Know]

Perhaps there is Qigong in your school's basics.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by dragontounge2
thats right wooha. If you try to kick some one in the head its the same as punching some one on their feet. Kick in the head when thier down;).
Does your school practice over the navel kicks. if you do its not a practical style and would deffinetly not recommend you use that crap on the street unless you want to get kicked in the balls. have you done a form yet? what about stances? punches? whats up?

I don't agree with that at all. kicks, while I wouldn't reccomend it, can be used high, and quite effectively if you have proper speed and timing. In addition high kicks are great as training aids - If you can kick high with power, you can ALWAYS kick low with power. just because you can kick low doesn't mean that you can kick high. Do you consider longfist as an impractical style?

You gotta look at the broader scope of things. Will you fight from a thighs parallel horse stance? heck no, but it's part of the training. When you fight, will you chamber your hand to you waist, or will you protect your head with it?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Sleemie
Can you do me a favor, then...I've tried to find a school in my area, but have had no luck. Since you're in that circle, do you think you could find a school in my area? Maybe through one of the associations or something. I'm in the Northern Virginia area, specifically Fairfax. I can go with just about any area inside of Washington, DC, and SOME parts of Maryland, but I'm not willing to travel too far. I've already gotta travel 25 miles one way during rush hour traffic to my school, and I'm not willing to go any further than that.

Talk to Merry Prankster - He knows of most of the good schools in that area.

[SevenStar]

I do like the look of Wing Chun because of the techniques and hand movements...it looks like it's a lot more practicle in terms of fighting and self defense. It also looks like it's something that you can apply in a fighting situation a lot sooner than my Hung Fut. Maybe not in a tournament, which I don't care about, but in real life, which is more important to me. So, although I like my hung fut style, I'm open to checking out a wing chun school to get a better feel for it. Not saying I'll change, but am open to checking it out.

That pretty much sums it up.... [/B]

If you think that hung fut is not practical, then you either should stick with it and see if it's possible that you are missing something, or move on because it's likely that the teacher is no good - or at least no good at teaching self defense. ALL styles have practicality.

[SevenStar]

Learning qigong from a book or video is not advisable, as you can harm yourself. Talk to your sifu and see if qi cultivation is included in your curriculum. since you are in an external style, you may not get into that type of thing until you reach advanced stages.

[No_Know]

"...it's likely that the teacher is no good - or at least no good at teaching self defense."

Generally, that is a logical deduction. However, it is Completely inappropriate here, as far as the actual.

I No_Know why you did not address that Sleemie has been to not much more than two classes.

The School Sleemie is attending has sparring classes. There are at least five levels of sparring. Sleemie hasn't learned enough to take sparring there yet. Sleemie could start sparring after taking and passing a test on the School basics class material.

Hung Fut is not an external style. External/Internal if you have to.

[SevenStar]

I agree, which is why I stated that he should stick around for a bit first.

[Sleemie]

I never said Hung Fut was impracticle, I just said that in terms of applying the techniques to real life fighting that Wing Chun is probably more easily and quickly adaptable. In fact, my school even admits that the Hung Fut Techniques have to be modified for sparring. However, my primary purpose in taking Kung Fu is not for fighting, although the fact that it will help in that area is a major plus. I like Hung Fut because I've always liked the Shaolin Animal styles. Thus far, I've only learned the basics, but when I was younger I learned some Hung Gar and Praying Mantis, so I have a feel for what the style is like. I've decided to go ahead and stick with my Hung Fut, which is actually a very good style in terms of classical Kung Fu, and our Sifu is one of the more respected Kung Fu folks around in terms of his abilities and his school.

[SevenStar]

modified how?

as for wing chun - that will depend on the practitioner. some will find it easier, some will find other styles easier. That's for the individual to determine for himself.

[Sleemie]

I think if you look at just about any of the Shaolin Animal styles they have to be modified for sparring. I think a lot of it is obvious, because you're not going to use a tiger claw or crane's beak or snake hand or manitis stricke while sparring, especially with gloves on. If you do sticky hands, then you can use those techniques, but sticky hands is not sparring. If you do regular sparring with equipment, gloves etc. you have to modify the techniques that are in the form. Even the delivery of the punch
(everything pretty much becomes a punch with your fist in sparring, as opposed to using the animal techniques) has to be changed to be more direct. With sticky hands, you're told to use the techniques that you've learned in the forms, with sparring they have to teach you how to apply the techniques to sparring.