Interesting article I found on the difference between old school and modern training.

[Black Belt Jones 1]

I found this article while cleaning out my attic the other day. It is a xerox copy of an article from an offbeat Martial arts publication in the 70's or 80's that was given to me by a friend many years ago. I do not know the exact publication. The article was an interview with a Baji Chuan master in his early 90's.(Now probably dead). It concerns the arguement of modern vs. traditional training methods. As follows:

Baji Master - Translated - "You ask me about the ways we trained in the olden days compared to the way people(Americans, Westerners) train in the way of the fist. I will answer your question by simply describing the way I was trained in my youth. In Honan(Province, China) when we began training at an early age in fighting the question was not, "Will I someday be called upon to use my skills to save my life?". We new that we would have to fight to protect ourselves and later our families. Many of us were already bullied by people of larger size or greater skill. Fighting was a lifelong challenge - you either succumbed to those who used their skills to extort from you or you challenged them and defeated them. If you did not defeat them you would probably die from injuries. Fighters did not like to leave a vengefull adversary to his own devices and full of enough hatred to return again someday and defeat them. A person who had many victories and renown was always a target of those seeking renown for themselves by defeating that person in combat. So it wasn't a simple matter of developing a reputation for oneself, you constantly were scrutinized and challenged. It was a very complex situation then fighters were trained in many different wushu. Jiao(Grappling), Fist, foot, Taiji, many different fighters would cross paths(lock horns)in those days. We had to train to be very strong and accurate. For example there was a local ruffian/bandit who was notorious for killing opponents with a stone hand(iron palm?)strike to the throat. We(Baji master, and peer students) would toughen our necks by stiking each others throats with the shaft of spears. Once there was a challenger who was a Jiao(grappler) who would crash into an oppont knocking them off their feet. He plagued many fighting disciples in my province. We tained jumping very high into the air while whirling and striking sand filled bags tossed at us. A fellow student killed this man many months later with the technique. If the fighter was a tremendous kicker we would toughen our bodies up accordingly to deal with this. If we did not we would suffer defeat(death). Many students nowadays even in China do not want to train as intensively as we did in the old days. I remember standing in postures for hours until I could no longer feel anything below my waist. Only through this kind of training can you make yourself stronger than your adversaries. And to defeat your adversaries you must be stronger then they are(quicker, more agile, faster, more powerful).

[fa_jing]

I've always wondered if it was possible to jump over a shooter. Better keep working on my vertical...

-FJ

[rogue]

Too **** funny! But then maybe he wielded the Green Destiny Sword. :rolleyes:

[Black Jack]

Rogue:D

Shiznit, I love the Green Destiny Sword, I think I am going to buy one from a movie reproduction weapon company and fight crime.

Would you want to be my sidekick? You could dress up like Emma Peel and weild a sword cane.

Think about it.

[rogue]

You're starting to scare me BJ!:)

[Shadow Dragon]

Interesting article.

Yes, it is true that we don't train the way they did way abck when.

Question:
"Is there still a NEED to train that way."

What reasons besides "ego" do exist today to train this way??

Peace.

[Royal Dragon]

The old timers did everything we do, only more of it, and more intensely.

[Merryprankster]

Ahem:

Assuming the article isn't an exaggeration let me tell you what I see:

People beating the crap out of each other, training very hard to FIGHT.

Let me tell you what I DON'T see--people talking about spiritual enlightenment, inner peace, philosophy, or personal growth.

Kinda telling, dontcha think?

Just for the record, I don't buy this "golden past" crap when it spouts from anybody.

[Black Jack]

MerryPrankster,

Does bjj have any of those kind of golden past stories, you know the urban legend kind like the one above.

Rogue :p

[Merryprankster]

The closest we have are the Kimura vs Helio Gracie fight, and the Waldemar Santana vs Helio Gracie. At least I think it was Waldemar....

Oh yeah---and Rickson's 400-0 fight record.

However, both of the above mentioned fights are on tape somewhere and were reported in newspapers, as I recall, and Kimura discussed his fight with Helio in his biography.

And nobody who knows anything takes the 400-0 fight record without a grain of salt. He lost to Ron Tripp at least once in Sambo comps.

I respect Rickson, his abilities and his accomplishments, but I don't buy a 400-0 fight record--especially when the original hype had him as undefeated in grappling--yet we have a loss in Sambo.

I think a little common sense applied to slightly above and beyond stories does wonders.

It's hard to have such stories in BJJ thanks to the fact that it's a 20th century art--most everything has been recorded in one way or another. Oral History tends to embellish, rather than represent. That's just the way it is... the 'hero' keeps getting stronger and stronger and bigger and bigger... until you have a guy 50 ft tall with a blue ox....

Personally, I prefer managing expectations. In a challenge match there are two people, one camera. Winner keeps the tape :) It's cooler for being real.

People are at their best as human. Although myth has its place, just like anything else. The problem is when we start confusing the two....

[Black Jack]

Merry,

I agree with the myth aspect, but from a different angle, I think for some people the academic connection can sometimes be just as alluring as a martial myth, though the academic connection is often very based in fact, though not always, just the same kind of allure. To know that the same technique you are working on, the same training methods, have been used by others in a past culture that you respect and even come from.

I get this way with the research of western fighting methods and its history, to know that the training method I am working on was used by those of the same culture, by a commando in WWII or a bare knuckle pugilist, or a french streetfighter, Irish stick fighting methods or a American Indian tomahawk technique, nothing wrong with having a connection you enjoy as long as you keep your feet on the ground.

[Merryprankster]

Yup. I have no issue with a little embellishment, as long as we remember that's exactly what it is :)

For instance some white guy who thought he was "walking the path of the AmerIndian Warrior" because they are learning to fight in an AmerIndian Way," would make me want to laugh...

kinda like those who think they're "walking the Warrior Way," today....

[SevenStar]

"when we began training at an early age in fighting the question was not, "Will I someday be called upon to use my skills to save my life?". We new that we would have to fight to protect ourselves and later our families."

I think that pretty much states the reason why they trained so hard and the reason that many people nowadays don't. It was a given that they would have to fight, same as the old kalistas and silat practiioners. They were training for combat. Nowadays, it seems as if we train, but all the while hope that we never have to fight. There's nothing wrong with not wanting to fight, but when you keep that at the front of your mind, it seems logical that you would become somewhat lax in your training, because you are hoping you never have to use it anyway. This is a situation where you can really see the benefits of sport fighting. They are training expecting a fight, and they train hard for it. true, the fight is different from a street altercation or a challenge match to the death, but it is a fight none the less, and fighters know they must train hard for it.

It seems like now everyone tries to raitonalize it away - "well, even though I am out of shape, it's a street fight, not a sport match. If training in the old days was anything like the stories we hear, I guarantee that they weren't out of shape. Ah well, it's late and I'm rambling. hopefully everyone can make some sense of this.

[HuangKaiVun]

The old timers might've trained MORE, but I don't think they trained more intensely.

I trained under one of those "old timers" from that same Henan province in a style with a similar background and reputation as Baji. In fact, our style's way of teaching persists to this present day in a pretty unadulterated manner (complete with the challenge matches and such).

What my sifu noticed was that I asked a lot more questions and did a lot more conscious thinking than he and his classmates were ALLOWED to do in China. We may have spent less time training together, but I spent no less time practicing and much more time THINKING. He spent hours correcting me (and only me) each practice session. After a while, I got to a point where I didn't need a lot of correction to do my lessons properly.

My sifu always told me that compared to my Chinese classmates, I had it a lot better because he wasn't holding back his teaching. It took him 20 years to learn what he showed me in the course of a few WEEKS. For that I'll always be grateful to him.

When a student isn't getting the full teaching from the start, his progress is hindered and he has to make up the lost slack. This is true not just in kung fu, but every other discipline I've experienced or taught myself. It's actually harder in the short run to stomach the extent of full teaching, but then the student comes out stronger in the long run.

The great martial arts students spend time on their own pushing themselves to be the best. Whether mentally or physically, a truly great student is always "practicing". Most of the people on this forum (especially the ones posting here) do this routinely, which is why we actually post here.

In summary, I can say that we today practice as hard (if not harder) than the old timers and have more resources at our hands to do so.

[scotty1]

Good point about sportfighting Sevenstar.

At some point you are definitely going to get your arse kicked if you don't train hard. Always the spectre of the next competition.

[Le nOObi]

who was this baji man?

[Black Jack]

Huang,

I liked that post and I also believe that as well, maybe not so cut and dry as everyone trains to a different extant than the next guy, but 100% on the aspect that we have MUCH more knowledge now due to the technology of our times, the info is there for everyone now in the shapes of teachers, tapes, books, a ocean of different systems and ideas, whole reams of modern and traditional data and research on combative sciences, in short a whole melting pot of information to be R&D for those who wish to presue it.