Taijiquan against primarily striking arts.

[Fu-Pow]

I know that Taiji has striking in it (very powerful too) but how does it fair against a primarily striking art like Wing Chung, for example?

It seems that as a Taiji player that if your getting a succession of rapid fire punches that you'd have to be quick first and powerful second or you might get "smacked upside the head". In other words the concept of stick and neutralize might not work.

Any thoughts or experiences on this topic?

No flames please or it's straight to my ignore list.

[Repulsive Monkey]

this is not a generlaistion but I have a Wing Chung friend who I spar with and hes been practicing for 5 years longer in his art than I have in Taiji. In the last 6 months he says that he needs to do some catching up with me, as it appears that I can get quicker strikes in than him.
However this is just a comment not an inference.

[gazza99]

Well speed is definatley a plus, but if you use proper fa-jing, it will be extremely fast anyhow. WC peeps are quick, but their structure is often lacking, and their movements are empty*, they have only bridge sensitivity, and thus they are easily disrupted, you only have to take their center or break their structure upon the first contact, then they will not be able to use any more rapid fire type attacks, simply becuase they will be on the ground, damaged, or closed up to much.
Yeilding of any sort in this situation should only last a millisecond so that you can give them back a nice strike on the other end.
Regards,
Gary

[TzuChan]

gazza, what you are telling here is, a perfect Taiji vs a lacking WC, how about a perfect Taiji vs a perfect WC (in theory) ?

[Walter Joyce]

Just a thought or two.

How accurate is the assumption that all Wing Tsun people have the same skills? And all Tai ji practitioners?

How useful is this kind of discussion? Doesn't it actually reduce down to a my style is better than yours argument? (here, either wing tsun is better than tai ji or tai ji is better than wing tsun).

How useful is that kind of discussion?

Last, I've always thought it was the singer, not the song. Or more appropriately, the martial artist, not the art.

Like I said, just a thought or two.

Good training,
Walter

[Fu-Pow]

Not a better or worse argument. Ok...lets use another example like Choy Lay Fut. Choy Lay Fut has some pretty firey mean punches that come in rapid succesion. How can you stick to that ? Or do you even try? Do you just move out of the way and wait for your opportunity? When its coming right at your face a punch is a punch after all.

[Nexus]

As soon as they attack, they are giving you that energy. They are also creating an opening in making that attack and you use that opening. This is all theory, these concepts are clear in actions and even with a hundred posts could remain vague until they were experienced.

[crumble]

From observation, not experience:

The main thing is you have to be moving in as you yield. You can't hang back and "block". It looks a lot like skimming up the punching arm. Once you are near or past the elbow of that arm, it can't punch again, because you jam it.

The art of it all is making that initial contact and then never letting that arm be used again, even when the second arm punch is coming.

You only have to block an arm once if you are doing it right.

-crumble

[TzuChan]

You mean Chi Sao ?

[TzuChan]

You mean Chi Sau ?

[fa_jing]

Good topic - I don't know, I'm on the other side of the fence (wing chun.) But I'm interested to see the response!

One thing - we're infighters, but not so much at the body-to-body range. Perhaps if you can hit us with a shoulder-strike??

-FJ

[gazza99]

It would not matter......but what people said below is valid, that is not the context in which this matter should be described.
Gary

[Daniel Madar]

I am having a devil of a time finding it, but there is an article out there about Kenneth Cheung--a well known SF Wing Chun practitioner--and his experiences meeting Feng ZhiQiang.

If I find it I will let you know.

[Fu-Pow]

Daniel-

I'm familiar with the article. I seem to remember that they were playing Chi Sao rather than actually "hammering it out." So I'm not sure if the article exactly fits the situation that I'm talking about. Cool article though, he talks about Feng Zhiqiang stealing his root and throwing him quite far.

[RAF]

Daniel:

The article is on the site of the Wing Chun player and I can't find my copy. Feng Zhiqiang threw the guy around in their hotel room in Los Angeles or San Francisco.

In a couple of days, I will be back in my office and check to see if I can find the article. I will post the website.

[Braden]

http://www.bawcsa.org/bio/KenNFZQ.html

[miscjinx]

I had an opportunity to spar someone that could throw a continuous series of up to 6 or 8 strikes - very fast - a pause and other round. I worried about hurting each other if I closed the gap and went to elbow/shoulder strike range where I could maintain a sticking and adhering - basically feel what he was doing before he did it. So I kept my distance and struck his arms only, but I found that if you keep relaxed, don't focus on any part of the body, keep eagle vision (see his entire body at once), keep the internal principles intact, etc...that I could block faster than he could strike. Not one strike ever came close while I maintained myself.

As soon as I tensed, he hit me. As soon as I focused on a specific part of him, he hit me. ETC.

Strikers do not bother me as much anymore after that training session. Internal arts are very fast because they are relaxed. I haven't been in a situation sparring yet where I wasn't fast enough to defend - I still need to work on attack.

[No_Know]

" Ok...lets use another example like Choy Lay Fut. Choy Lay Fut has some pretty firey mean punches that come in rapid succesion. How can you stick to that ? Or do you even try? Do you just move out of the way and wait for your opportunity? When its coming right at your face a punch is a punch after all."


Look for an opportunity. Take advantage.

[HuangKaiVun]

Which Tai Chi are we talking about here?

Chen? Yang? Sun? Wu ? Hao? Chen PanLing? Chang DonSheng?


Same with Choy Li Fut. WHICH Choy Li Fut are we talking about?


Or Wing Chun. Slant body Wing Chun? Pao Fao Lein Wing Chun? Gee Shim Shinn See Wing Chun?

[Kaitain(UK)]

I spar with three different WC guys once or twice a month (each) -
some (subjective) observations

- they can only throw a lot of strikes if you don't stick properly
- WC is far more than just throwing a lot of strikes
- a lot of techniques use the tensing reaction that occurs in most people if you pull their arm suddenly, good Taiji makes that useless as you just go with the pull and hit them. All three of my friends have stopped using these techniques now as they just get hit - if they step back as they pull then I follow as well and they get hit harder.
- you shouldn't go to the corners (elbows etc) just because they like the primary hands range as well, it's the main fighting range of Taiji's best weapons, fight your own game.
- although WC players have some root it isn't anything like as strong as a Taiji root (different emphasis), slipping off their energy and pulling them into your structure works well as they cannot root the same amount of energy
- as stated above, they thrive on tension in their opponent - as soon as you tense it's problem time
- a fault that seems to creep in is a fixation with beating the arms, sometimes going straight through to their body works, but I'd say this is a failing in their useage that I can take advantage of through familiarity. They all work at not doing it but I think a side effect of constant chi sao is a fixation with beating the arm rather than just hitting.
- they do not have a stand-up grappling system that compares with Taiji - if you can establish elbow control it ends very quickly (although that's true of WC too)
- basic pushing hands will not prepare you properly - WC come off regularly to intercept the opposite arm, if you have not trained to deal with this you'll lose
- basic chi sao doesn't prepare WC players properly for someone sticking to them constantly - if I go very defensive it is frustrating for them - but this is in pushing hands practice so it's just a case of my training method screwing up theirs - it's irrelevant in a fight
- something we've all noticed - I really suffer if they maintain long arm range (hands reach no further than opponents elbow). It just seems that my primary hand range is slightly nearer than theirs. However, the downside is they can't hit me very easily - but it often leads to me getting tense and then they beat me :)
- we don't use kicking in sparring much as it always leads to injury - Chi Gerk attacks the knee a lot, Taiji uses a lot of knee trapping and attacks to the knee/groing. I wouldn't say either system is better - but I find it easier to 'feel' their kicks when sticking than they do. Again this is training related - I deliberately train to kick without any of that energy leaking into my hands (sounds a bit surreal but hold someone's hands, close your eyes and ask them to stand on one leg - you can feel it)
- not a lot of sparring goes on without closing to contact - both arts are far more comfortable with constant contact so it tends to be short bursts of activity followed by a break to assess damage. This can be dangerous as moving into a structurally sound opponent can be like running into a wall.
- all of us agree that sparring is only relevant as a training tool, there are simply too many things that can't be done in that environment - e.g kicks to the front of the knee, headbutts, strikes to the neck area, attacks to the elbow that would lead to hyper-extension. Any of those movements would finish a confrontation quickly.


disclaimer - I've been training Taiji the same or less time than all of them but I've trained MA a lot longer. I'm also larger than they are - they range from 11 to 13 stone - I'm 18 stone. In terms of rooting and potential force I have an advantage. I am in no way saying that Taiji is better than WC or vice versa - I'm merely offering my completely subjective experience of sparring with WC peeps. I don't speak for Taiji as a whole and I'm not discussing WC as a whole.

[Liokault]

Not a better or worse argument. Ok...lets use another example like Choy Lay Fut. Choy Lay Fut has some pretty firey mean punches that come in rapid succesion. How can you stick to that ? Or do you even try? Do you just move out of the way and wait for your opportunity? When its coming right at your face a punch is a punch after all.


What you do is stick to the first attack then controle the arm so no more attacks are in-coming. There is no point in trying to stick to a persons arms if you are not going to try to controle them or if you are going to let them attack again.

Once you have made contact and controled your oponents arms they are playing your game (as a tai chi practitioner) and you should be fully in controle of them.

I have done this with many many differant styles in class in the ring and in the street. The only time a wing chun guy ever got the better of me was when he gave up punching and rugby tackled me off the lei tai repeatedly in a san shou match.

The only guy I now have trouble controleing is a very good TKD guy who is much faster than me and has trained full contact TKD for 12 years. When we first started sparring I could take him but now he has been training with us for 2-3 years hes worked out what im doing and has found ways to get around it.

[Fu-Pow]

Thanks for the info guys. This turned into a pretty good thread.