How Would You Deal With a Grappler?

[Water Dragon]

A Chinese Grappler that is. A Shaui Chiao man specifically.

[ewallace]

I'd walk around on my hands so I wouldn't get thrown on my head so hard. :)

[Water Dragon]

Oh c'mon ewallace, that's just a stereotype. Trowing people on their head is just a small part of the art. We'll also throw you on your @ss, hip, shoulder, elbow, face, knee, into a fire hydrant, wall, telephone pole etc. :D

[ewallace]

I am complacent with all the aforementioned landing spots sans the head.

[DelicateSound]

Same as any grappler, keep the distance, practise evasion and control, throw out constant punches, prepare for the tackle/clinch and keep my feet on terra firma. Be prepared for groundwork.

Against a good grappler you need a good solid punch IMO. If you're going to kick, it has to be as fast as [sorry] Bruce.

Watch Ino against Albright in Bushido III. [before he tries to grapple him :rolleyes:]




If all else fails, strip bollock naked, slather myself in chocolate mousse and pray he leaves. If he doesn't I'm gonna get worse than a kicking........

[Water Dragon]

Good Responce! Except we don't have groundwork.

[KC Elbows]

50 bucks a half, 30 a quarter, unless it's hydro. I don't make special deals for grapplers.

And I'd hit them a lot in the eye.

[DelicateSound]

Oops. Sorry. I must admit I know little about Chinese grappling. Sorry :(


And it's responSe. :p Sorry again.

I am an ex-Judo guy WD, so I kind of know how to fight a younger "me" without grappling :D




But cheers for the compliment. Unless you were talking about the mousse..... :D


If I was still a Judo guy, a guy who could do the above would scare me most.

[Water Dragon]

Actually Delicate Soundm it's the Muay Thai guys that scare me most. But yes, I agree. What will kill Judo will kill Shuai Chiao.

[KC Elbows]

Actually, the style I practice is heavy on Shaui Chiao, so I guess I'd be playing the same game.

BTW, DS's plan is what usually works best against me, except for the mousse thing, as I'm a chocolate fanatic. In that case, I would throw him hard enough to knock the mousse off of him, break his neck, and then lick the ground for an hour until all of the mousse was gone.

[DelicateSound]

Why MT? The powerful kicks? I sparred a 1yr MT guy last year. Full contact but all padded up. I did OK, especially at hand work/grappling. I could get him everytime if I got in range [made him wear a gi]

The problem was getting past the kicks. He "chambered" them, keeping them up to his chest and kicking out from the knee. Man did they hurt. I got a few thigh hits closing the gap, was like getting hit by a crowbar! :eek:

Worse when I was tired and couldn't close fast enough. :p




As for a real answer to your question:

"I'd just Chin Na the guy or strike to the neck. No one could grapple with my touch of death, my style is unbeatable against knuckle-dragging grapplers......" :D

[DelicateSound]

KC - LOL! :p

I don't know much about 6-Elbows. Any websites?

[guohuen]

Good prices. Too bad I'm still being tested. whine..... whine....
So far swimming dragon plays with water is the only technique I've been able to get inside of a good thai kick with. (That's Thai kick, not Thai stick.) A combination of chin na and striking usually works for me agains grapplers.

[KC Elbows]

I always have a hard time against hardcore longfist stylists. I've always wondered if it was because, longfist being so old, it was first used as a way to defeat grappling. I dunno if that has any historical validity, but that never stopped me from saying something before.

BTW, I can trash old ladies, drop 'em right on their brittle hips and take their social security checks. Wu wei!:D

[KC Elbows]

Guohen,
tai stick'll cost you more, grappler or no.

DS,
Actually, the only site on it is www.taihui.com

Most of that site is actually about that teacher's wu style tai chi, but it has the history of taihui(six elbows) on it. I'm actually working on putting together all of my notes and putting them up in an organized form, as I don't think there's a single pic of six elbows out there. The style is a southern internal style descended from hsing yi, pa kua, and mantis boxing. It is heavy on throws and strikes, extreme in-close fighting, and has less chin na(the belief is that holding one opponent creates an opening for another), though at the higher levels, there's chin na in there.

[Water Dragon]

Tt's not really the kicks for me. It's the plumb and all those knees and elbows that come with it. Don't get me wrong though, that roundhouse can take the fight out of someone real quick.

[crumble]

Grease up. :D

I guess I'd just try to keep them off balance from the very start, so they wouldn't feel like they could try to get me off balance.

Easily said....

-crumble

[DelicateSound]

That's why I'm starting Wing Chun. To get used to close in striking range.

As for longfist, I don't see how it is a different range to most striking ranges really. Just a little bit further* out. Although I go see it's use.






*Had to.

[fa_jing]

KC - the 'dro runs me a bill for a quarter. :(

When I sparred WaterDragon, I found that hitting him on the way in, when I could, interrupted his flow. He would still make it in usually, but we would have a clinch, instead of an immediate throw, so there was a brief moment to do some more damage (like that knee...hee hee). My striking from the clinch isn't bad, and I was able to sink into a horse sometimes, to make it more difficult. I still felt like he was taking me down too easily. I need to learn to take a step back, to disengage and punch my way out, before I get caught up in the clinch. From the clinch, given time, he was invariably able to hook/clip one of my legs and toss me.

I talked to my sifu about it, he is used to shooters, but that's just a small portion of Shaui Jiao takedowns. He said that you can sometimes catch a shooter with a knee to the head. We know about the sprawl already. As for someone coming in higher, they are always running the risk of walking into a punch. You have to throw something, to break up their flow, or you are going to get tossed fast. Even if the opponent slips the punch, their structure has changed and the flow can be broken. The exception I noticed is, Shaui Jiao guys like to duck your punch and come in with their shoulder at your rib level. At least once I was able to get a head-lock out of this, but in most cases he was able to keep pushing me until I fell backwards. I am thinking that maybe I could use a horizontal elbow strike against this, but have yet to see.

The main thing I realized is, you have to take it to the Shaui Chiao guy, so he is in reaction mode. And, if he takes your balance, be ready to drag him down with you and get down and dirty on the ground - this experience really drove home the importance of groundfighting.

-FJ

[fa_jing]

one more thing: When I spar, sometimes I let my asking hands (guard hands) collapse a little, to the point where I'm holding them like a boxer. I think I need to keep them out where they belong, so as to create a barrier to prevent the opponent from coming all the way in. Now, this means giving your lead arm as a target to your opponent, but Wing Chun is designed to deal with this - evasive maneuvers with the lead arm, for example Huen Sao (circling wrist.)

-FJ

[KC Elbows]

fa jing,
Yeah, all the guys I spar with use that collapsed boxing type guard, whereas I have my arms out more. Being long limbed, it really can get to bug an opponent to have to pass the distant guard, though it is by no means impossible, just different. Plus, it's easier for me to get a throw with that guard than a boxing guard. In addition, I don't keep closed fists when I'm in the guard, I keep my palms open for the grab/clinch/whatever. In fact, I'm playing around with moving away from most closed fist attacks except occassional phoenix-eye fists, and utilize more palm strikes in the assault.

And yes, the 'dro is an expensive proposition.

[fa_jing]

Legalize it....;)

KC, keeping an obstacle between you and your opponent is one of the main principles of our Wing Chun. The same principle applies, whether its a finger jab, a vertical fist, a front kick, or the Dragon Pole. Make your opponent move around something in order to get at you. Another example: we do boxing rounds with Sifu, and sometimes he'll just stick his arm straight out for several seconds, pushing against my shoulder or whatever. It is hard to get around this, and serves as a good drill - I think boxing people might be familiar with this.
WaterDragon, when I was tossing out that quick front kick from a distance, I noticed it was tough for you to get around. I wasn't doing that the whole time, because it doesn't really gain me anything, just delays you. And if I did it all the time, your mind would invent a counter, or eventually you would catch my kick.

[norther practitioner]

kick him in the head while he was training with one of his buddies on the ground.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by KC Elbows
fa jing,
Yeah, all the guys I spar with use that collapsed boxing type guard, whereas I have my arms out more. Plus, it's easier for me to get a throw with that guard than a boxing guard.

KC, could you expand on this one?

[KC Elbows]

You mean it's not legal!!!?:eek:

As far as keeping something between yourself and the attacker, it seems the concept is not all that different between my art and wing chun. One of the guys at my school is a longtime wing chun practitioner, and the first time he went to play stickyhands with me, he was expecting to just take me, but we use sticky hands as well, albeit a different version. We ended up being equals, which was cool. The only problem is, we both have to work **** hard to get past each other's defenses, so it's really helped our offensive abilities to practice together. Fortunately, he's not big on throws yet, so it's saved me a bit of pain, but otherwise, we are on a par, as his chin nas are superior to mine.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by norther practitioner
kick him in the head while he was training with one of his buddies on the ground.

Please refer to post 6 of this thread. Thank you

[KC Elbows]

WD,
I'm not sure, but I'll try.:)

I don't put my guard out abnormally far, but I keep it at a good distance generally, and only bring it very close when the need arrises, though I usually do not need to. I am tall and long limbed, and when my guard is out like that, if I find an opening to get in on my opponent, it gives me a good opportunity to get the clinch in as my legs do their thing(pretty much every throw in six elbows utilizes a leg to leg chin na, so I gues there is chin na in there, but not much in the way of wrist locks, etc.). My legs might be sweeping behind their rear leg, or stepping deep inside their stance in order to uproot their lead leg. At the same time, my arms might be simply clinching, or otherwise forcing their body to shift over the immobilized leg in a way that makes them fall.

The throws are subtle, not big pick ups and dumps, and should require no strength, just stability of structure.

By keeping the arms out, not only do I draw attention to my freakishly large skeletal hands and conceal my leg movements, but I have my hands in a position to do chin na, clinch, defend, etc.

I keep my lead hand up to defend my head, and my rear hand at the lead arm's elbow, both hands open and palms down, wrists dropped(i.e. not lotus hand with the wrists bent so that the index finger points straight up, but what is called crane hand in my system, with the wrists bent the opposite way so that the hands can quickly "drop" onto a limb to grab-this posture works well for me as I am tall, and so a lot of opportunities for grabs involve grabbing from above) The biggest thing to watch for is the fingers. If I have my fingers pointed straight at the opponent, the opponent could potentially jam the fingers. However, by having the wrists held in the crane position(crane wing, I think some arts call it) with an angle slightly to the outside of the arm, the risk is minimized.

Hope this makes sense. Any comments/critiques/glaring flaws or weaknesses, please let me know.

[Water Dragon]

KC, makes more sense to me than you might realize ;)

Fa Jing, didn't even realize I was bumping you. That's Kao (shoulder stroke) from Taiji. Oh well, do something for 5 years straight and it just happens I guess.

[norther practitioner]

Sorry WD, I just saw the grappler thing. Anywho, I'd still try to kick them in the head, or the leg, or the stomach, or punch or palm, but def. try to keep a little more distance than usual. If they get inside I would try to uproot them with techniques that I learned in tai chi and shaolin. They are actually very similar movements, either the hooking or the palm/hand work to the mid section.

[Water Dragon]

That's cool, I was just being a ba$tard. If you know it's a Shuai Chiao guy, I'd watch those head kicks. The nastiest things I've ever seen in the art come from catching high kicks.

i.e. If you can catch a kick coming toward your head, you can do a shoulder throw with it :eek:

[Merryprankster]

I'd try to outgrapple him :)

Water-- it sounds like we do similar things to get inside. Off a kick, I either take it if I'm too slow, or block it, then step in throwing a little leather, then it's slip,slip,slip,slip, with constant forward pressure ala old style tyson till I'm inside.

If somebody punches, it's the same thing.

If I'm shooting, I usually try to follow something back in.

If I have to work to get inside because I can't counterfight, I'll open up with push kick, roundkick, shoot or jab into a clinch.

[Water Dragon]

I like to fold in using a continuous fist. I'll come in with a punch and "fold" my arm so that I bump you with my shoulder. The shoulder throw isn't a strike, but used to knock you backward off balance. The idea is to smash you off your balance and then take you before you can regain it. This is what I use to set up my leg picks, cannonballs, front raises, etc. I guess it would be my version of "shooting". It works extremely well if you get it right. Unfortunately, if your timing is off, you're gonna eat something (possibly big)

If your arms are out there, I still like to bridge and follow you in. This leads to upper body throws.

OK, so as a BJJ man, how would you try to outgrapple me? Would you try to control the takedown? Remember, I spend about the same amount of time in the clinch and throwing as BJJ does on the ground. We also have a type of "fajing" in our throws that basically whips or pile drives you into the ground. Believe me, you wont take more than one or two of those, even on a might. No, I can't do it yet, but one of my teachers can.

Or would you try to pull me into your guard and finish me from the ground? If so, how do you plan to pull guard when we are in my arena?

Or are you going to try and keep me at bay and rush a shot on me? If so, what do you plan on my counters being?

[Merryprankster]

Um... I wrestled for years Water Dragon. I'm not totally clueless on my feet. I'm probably not as good as I once was, but I was a little more than half-way decent in the clinch and an excellent counterwrestler.

How's the answer "it depends?"

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Um... I wrestled for years Water Dragon. I'm not totally clueless on my feet. I'm probably not as good as I once was, but I was a little more than half-way decent in the clinch and an excellent counterwrestler.

How's the answer "it depends?"

You're no fun :mad:

[Merryprankster]

If it makes you feel any better, you've got me desperately interested in Shuai Chiao. Once I've got my BJJ BB, I might start looking... :)

[Water Dragon]

Why wait? They flow together so easily.

Just for fun, Think of the Shuai Chiao guy as someone who crosstrained Greco-Roman and Judo (exclusively no gi). What would be your general strategy?

[Merryprankster]

Lose ride clinch (like a double inside control) to prevent tight control, to set up for lower leg attacks, since that seems to be the weakness of Greco and Judo--not that they CAN'T defend them, just that they aren't used to it as much.

LOTS of wrist control. Wrist control, wrist control and more wrist control.

I have to wait thanks to time constraints. I treat BJJ like wrestling--5-6 days a week training.

[Water Dragon]

Pretty much, yeah. I've never been taken down from an upper body by a wrestler. I actually get the majority of my throws from counter attacking those. It's the leg throws that get me. I'm a sucker for a good double leg.

[MonkeySlap Too]

WD SAID: "No, I can't do it yet, but one of my teachers can. "

Only one?

[SevenStar]

They do flow pretty good - matter of factly, my bjj school has a night dedicated to it - monday - judo, tuesday - gi, thursday, no gi and sat is pretty much open.

As for the question, I'd try to keep my distance, hoping my footwork could get me in striking range, then quickly back out. If I'm forced to clinch, I want to keep him off balance and set him up to be taken down, where I should have an advantage. Basically, I want clinch time to be minimal, as that's where the SC fighter is most dangerous.

[NorthernMantis]

It depends whatever the dude throws at me.

[yu shan]

Shoot, Shoot, f*cking Shoot...unrelenting...follow it up! Not that big a deal, I prefer to wrestle! Next chapter please...let`s take it to the real level.

[brassmonkey]

Shui Chiao guys are tough customers for sure. My limited understanding of shui chiao for theyre throws to work they either have to unbalance you then throw you or be so close to you they can capture your center altogether. For most the throws the shui chiao man will forcibly find your center and offbalance you so if you can avoid this unbalancing by yielding you'll be in better shape. If the sc guy offbalances you and trys to kick your leg out then yield to this with your leg, the funny thing is the throw the sc guy trys to do on you with this type of counter you'll end up doing almost the exact same throw on him most the time. To make matters more complicated, most of Cha'ngs students also do a fist art so they'll probably soften you up b4 trying to throw you but that's another thread. Not that I can do any of this to a good sc guy but its the strategy I'm working towards or my understanding now.

[scotty1]

I have never really sparred against anyone that utilises throws as a major part of their arsenal.

If I had to (with no prior experience) I would be very aware of where their legs were, and fight like hell to keep out of the clinch.

[edit] sorry, by fight like hell I mean attack and evade, seeking to end the match as soon as possible, or make the SC guy at least feel that he could not just clinch at will.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by MonkeySlap Too
WD SAID: "No, I can't do it yet, but one of my teachers can. "

Only one?

Well, I know for a fact that the Groin Ripper can. I have the impression from M.J. that he has part of it down, but not all of it. I'm not sure where Lil Joe's at except for that he's much better than me!

[MonkeySlap Too]

Just being snotty. MJ is too hard on himself.