How Would You Deal With Muay Thai?

[Water Dragon]

I liked how the last one went. A lot of good info and no trolling. It was good to see a discussion on strategy as well. So how woould you deal with Muay Thai?

Me? I'd try to cut an angle outside his lead foot and charge him. From there, I'd go for a throw. I want to avoid that rear leg roundhouse on the way in and getting manhandled in the plumb. That's what scares me the most. Of course, much easier said than done.

[ewallace]

Well, instead of starting a new thread, I shall hijack yours.

Actually, I hear so much about the thai fighter's kicks, what is everyone's general feeling on their hand/upperbody skills?

Thanks for letting me share WD.

[scotty1]

While we're sharing....

Ewallace, remember a while ago you wrote 'Palestinians suck' under your avatar and I (your terms) busted your a*s for it?

Well, sorry man, I was a bit argumentative and self righteous that day. In the mood for a fight, sorry. I've been meaning to apologise for ages.

:)

[Water Dragon]

From what I've seen, their hands are "adequate" but not "excellant" that doesn't mean they can't knock you out, but it's not the primary danger. The Thai Boxers I've seen use boxing mechanics to set up their big weapons. Elbows are another story and definately fall into the "excellant" category.

[scotty1]

On the subjuect of the Muay Thai I don't know.

Kicking range - beats me everytime

Clinch Range - beats me again

Boxing range- maybe I have a chance, if I can keep him too far away for a clinch and too close to kick effectively. Might have a chance to outbox a MT person, I hear there's not much emphasis on the hands.

Possible, although I think MT people would probably brush those tactics off.

[ewallace]

Apology accepted, but not really needed. That was a gross generalization on my part and was a rather ignorant thing to put under my screen name. It did spawn a great and very humorous thread about racist Texans though didn't it? I think we had some very good and level headed debate between us on that topic.

No worries mate :)

And no, there will be no group hug everyone.

[scotty1]

I feel at one with the world now. :D

I love getting sh!t off your chest.

Anyway, any comment on my MT tactics? Feel free to rip 'em apart.

[Cipher]

I would use a shin block to stop all of his low rounds, ha ha ha just joking.

Anyways on a seriouse note. Some things to try, brake the center line like WD said, use foot work to move around and in, stub their kicks (Hard to explain what I am referring to, not shin blocking) Use trapping for control, go for the standing knee when a mid level or higher kick is made (providing I don't get KTFO'ed). Make sure not to stand toe to toe and box, in other words would have to use other techs and not just boxing with them.

[ewallace]

The reason I ask this about MT is that I am having a very difficult time making up my mind about what style I want to start up. I spoke with a guy yesterday who trains MT fighters. Most of his training came under a fighter from Thailand.

It is a toss-up between that, and a BJJ school here. There is a couple of wing chun teachers here, but I don't think it's for me. Other than that I am in TKD hell.

[Water Dragon]

If you can handle the damage, go with the Thai fighter. (then hook up w/ fightfan for some groundwork) Check the credentials, I don't think they're that hard to verify in Muay Thai.

You could also work some of your Golden Mountain stuff in, and no offense to M.P., but stand up mo betta :D

[ewallace]

Dude I don't remember that much that I learned there. I was what, 14-15 years old then. I have had a couple beers and some Irish cigarettes since. Well, basically I forgot the forms. I still can do some chin-na and grabbing drills I remember.

I hooked up with FF once. We have both had some conflicting schedules and havent hooked up again. Actually, the BJJ school I'm looking at is where he trained.

[Water Dragon]

My bad. If you can't tell, I really respect the school.

[ewallace]

So do I. I was too young and dumb to appreciate what I had in my hands then. I would kill to have that school here.

[scotty1]

"stub their kicks "

Jamming?

[Cipher]

Originally posted by scotty1
"stub their kicks "

Jamming?

Yes, it was on the tip on my tongue. And yes I have done this to extremly hard kicks before:)

EDIT: Jamming, meaning with the foot not shooting in before they
get the kick out. Either way though but I meant with the
foot if you know what I mean.

[fa_jing]

Stupid question: what is the plumb position?

[Water Dragon]

That's when they get both hands behind your head and "squeeze" your neck with their forearms. First they shake you like a pitbull to disorient you, then they let loose with a barrage of knees (and kill you with the elbows)

[Dark Knight]

I fought a couple of MT fighters before. Their upper body work is not as strong as I would like, they will take shots to the body to return harder shots. That’s not for everyone, you have to be better conditioned.

I’ve seen American Kickboxers against MT, the Kickboxers close in and dominate with the hands, but that is under rules of no elbows or clinch and throw.

I found the best way for me to fight someone that fights that way is to blast in the centerline, and dominate with a lot of aggressiveness.

In one of the early UFC's Dan Severn fought a MT champion, he knew only wrestling and no submissions. He did two back to back suplexes to the MT guy (Great to see, brings a tear to my eyes overtime I think of how beautiful it was)

[scotty1]

"I’ve seen American Kickboxers against MT, the Kickboxers close in and dominate with the hands, but that is under rules of no elbows or clinch and throw. "

That is the tactics I was attemptng to describe myself.
Out of kicking range, maintain a certain amount of distance to stay out of the clinch and outbox that guy.

Works in theory...

:rolleyes:

[Black Jack]

I take this question comes from a kinda matched off standpoint-not streetfighting.

One of my favorite and natural positions to go to is the clinch, as my favortie striking tools are elbows, knees, short range strikes and gouges.

The clinch is a scary place to be trapped in, elbows are hella nasty, though you might be able to change it around by not going to the standard plumb if caught, there are other clinches to use, like the wrestling over and under/locked horns style, gives you more control of his upper tools, which may allow you to tie up one or both of there arms long enough to land your own strike, control technique or throw, that is if you can land your clinch in a superior position first or break there clinch before he can do any damage.

From a standup striking postion they are on a traditional level pretty linear so as I believe WD said you could angle in to close the gap, from there you could use a ballistic takedown or throw, maybe take him to the ground to shut down his weapons or strike him once you close that gap, keep striking with a lot of foreward pressure.

I know the last thing I would won't to do is trade blows with the guy.

btw, I think it is a great system.

[Chang Style Novice]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
That's when they get both hands behind your head and "squeeze" your neck with their forearms. First they shake you like a pitbull to disorient you, then they let loose with a barrage of knees (and kill you with the elbows)

okay, I've never tried to make this work 'live', but my shifu has told us and had us practice 'white crane spreads wings' as a counter for this kind of attack. You use the upper hand (with some head movement) to swipe the hands off your neck, probably getting the best results by going for the elbow or closer to the shoulder. Use the lower hand to scoop underneath the knee from inside, then move the leg and arms in opposite directions. With some forward pressure, this should turn into a takedown. Anyone out there who's pulled this off for real?

[fa_jing]

Uh, sounds like I need to stay out of their plumb. Period. I'm not even going to try to think of a counter to that. Wait a minute, something is coming to mind--remember that counter to a shoulder grab that I showed you, WD? Make a half circle with your arm to the sky, then come down with your upper arm against their wrist--chancy, because their wrist won't be at the right angle to cause them pain. But maybe worth a try. Perhaps some kind of claw to the face, obviously won't work with gloves.
Drop to the ground might catch you a hard knee. Incidentally, we practice kneeing thai-style from the plumb position, but we haven't worked much on getting into that postion.

Again, if their getting me in their plumb I did something wrong. I'm not too worried about the roundhouse kick as a lead technique, although I haven't sparred a Thai fighter yet. I'm definitely concerned about a roundhouse that I can't see in advance, because we're already engaged up top. :( At least my thighs are pretty strong. If I can see the kick coming, that's great because I'll triangle step away from the kick and into his center, counter kicking with a front kick to the low abdomen, or else if I catch it fast enough, go straight in with a front kick to the hip, followed by punches of course. Groin is also a target against an incoming round kick, but in sparring I'll probably try for an angled (twisting) front kick with the toe to a pressure point that's high on the inside of the thigh.

As against any style, I prefer to be the aggressor and use my offense for defense. It's better for me if I can get my opponent in reactive mode, so that I don't have to be as concerned about his weapons.

-FJ

[Black Jack]

Chang,

I don't know about Crane Spreading Wings but it sounds like a more complex version of a thai clinch break where you raise your arms through the narrow opening of his plumb and break the elbows out to the side from where you then can resume your own inside clinch, attack or what have you.

Yours has a takedown element though, no offense but it sounds a bit complicated, have you found that to be the case in practice and the only reason I say this is that when you are in the clinch at least when I have been in the clinch, the clincher is shaking, pushing, shoving, slamming, and jerking you around while you are in that clinch, trying to break your balance and disorienting you for the next strike of move, all the time giving you a barrage of things to fend off, its never a stand still thing.

From a striking prespective you might if the clinch is not set tight yet or the fighter has a sloopy/loose clinch, throw a palm heel strike (chin jab) up into the chin through the opening of the arms, fingers splayed back and ready to slide into the eyes at the same time you chould be grabbing his belt, article of clothing or putting your arm around his waist to pull him more into the blow, in an effort to cause more trauma, in this case the back and neck because he has nowhere to go.

Just thoughts.

[Chang Style Novice]

Let me see if I can get a little more specific, Jack, and if that helps.

In tai chi forms, the movement 'crane spreads wings' basically means your hands start together an inch or few in front of the solar plexus, and the move simultaneously in opposite circling arcs, parallel to the standing body. One reaches across the face, swings in front of but over the top of the head, and ends up with the upper arm horizontal and the forearm at about a 45 degree angle with the open hand gaurding the face. The other drops and swipes in front of the groin, coming to an end with the upper arm at about a 45 degree angle from the body and the forearm pointing toward the ground. That's the form, not the application.

The application is, of course, best applied before the plumb clinch is fully in. Everyone should know already that you want to stop trouble before it starts. So, as the mt guy is reaching for your neck, you use one hand to defend, ideally sending both of his arms to one side of your body. If he's already got the knee where you can get to it, your other hand should simultaneously be moving it out of the way in the opposite direction to his hands. You are attempting to send his attacks angling away from your body, one to the left, one to the right. If you really pull it off well, this should leave him on one foot, offbalanced, turning toward a horizontal orientation. You still have both feet down, so you can step forward behind the supporting foot, and land him on his butt or back.

I've never tried this in sparring, as it's not a typical attack for our style and have never had to defend against it for even that level of real resistance. It's only been a one-step drill we've done a few times. I agree that it's complex, but the motion is a VERY fundamental one in taichi, and one that is practiced a lot with many apps. I don't take offense at skepticism, but I'd really like to think all that practice was good for something!:D

[Black Jack]

Chang:D

Complexity for me may be a piece of cake for you bro.

I can now picture the movement, actually I remeber seeing it from a long time ago, I would still question it's validity under a guy jerking you around in a clinch but as you stated it is a much more pre-emptive move, I think all the best tactics are pre-emptive, so that puts it into a different category it seems.

Thanks for explaining.

Cheers

[Chang Style Novice]

http://www.taichiherb.com/index.php?fuseaction=martialarts.changshort

The third photo on this page is my shifu demonstrating the 'form' version of the move I mean. It's a little different than I described it, as he has extended hands further out. To imagine the whole motion, his hands started close together in front of his chest, then moved apart so each one described half of a big S in front of his body. I hope this helps.

crosspost, but no big deal.

And yeah, once something like a plumb clinch is on you, you're in a lot of trouble. I think we can all agree that the proper response to that statement is "well, duh!"

[Black Jack]

Chang,

Real nice kwoon man, I would get in so much trouble there with that sign that says "don't touch the weapons.":D

Yep that is the move I remeber, its cool to see your shifu is far from not being one of the "chi hippy-its not a martial art" crowd of Tai Chi Ch'uan players.

Is the Arm Fan a upward palm heel to the chin or a straight out palm strike?

[Chang Style Novice]

straight out from the shoulder

"its cool to see your shifu is far from not being one of the "chi hippy-its not a martial art" crowd of Tai Chi Ch'uan players. "

Heh! He's pretty chi oriented, but there's no doubt in anyone's mind over here that tcc's a martial art. I posted a few months back that he moved a hung ga teacher into the new location with him. Well, since then the hung ga guy (a much bigger and younger dude) started a whispering campaign that Shifu Hwang was too old and tired to fight. So shifu said shut up, put 'em up, or get the f@#$ out (paraphrasing.)

Long story short, Shifu's place is all his own again.

[Black Jack]

Chang,

Good for your teacher:cool:

I was curious as I LOVE palm heel strikes to the chin but I do mine in a different fashion than that application, that is if your application's target point is the chin, if its the general face I use a straight from the shoulder/jab movement.

Though that is a different thread and I don't want to hijack WD's good post.

Keep on truckin.

[Royal Dragon]

okay, I've never tried to make this work 'live', but my shifu has told us and had us practice 'white crane spreads wings' as a counter for this kind of attack. You use the upper hand (with some head movement) to swipe the hands off your neck, probably getting the best results by going for the elbow or closer to the shoulder. Use the lower hand to scoop underneath the knee from inside, then move the leg and arms in opposite directions. With some forward pressure, this should turn into a takedown. Anyone out there who's pulled this off for real?

Reply]
In orer for that one to work, you need to generate leverage against his elbows and effectively buckle them. From what I have seen of MT, the elbows are too close to you, and well locked in position for "White Crane speadss wingfs" to work

If he was chokinng you, and you could apply your structure against his elbws, yes it will work, but the MT "Plumb" posiiton is just too close for that one.

It may not be a leagal move, but the throat is like right there, I say use a good eagle claw against him when no one's looking or maybe rake his face forcing him to break enough for an escape, or some nasty Chin Na :D

[Water Dragon]

I see that Sevenstar just got on the board. I want to hear from him. Hopefully Khun Kao will reply as well (hint-hint)

[Shaolindynasty]

First off if it were a serious Thai fighter then I would need to get in better fighting condition. after that i am not sure if I would "try" to do anything. We do allot of leg catches so I would hopefully catch one and throw him. With that said I probally wouldn't pick a fight with a thai fighter anyway.

I don't really fear a serious Thai fighter anymore than any kind of serious martial art though, getting punched and kick hurts no matter what style is doing it.

[Chang Style Novice]

RD - Yeah, I don't know if you looked at my clarifications, but once inside the plumb, I don't think much of "Crane Spreads Wings" chances, either. At that time, I'd probably try to back away (to keep him from throwing knees by making him walk) and try to break the clinch with upward pressure on the elbows ala "Start Tai Chi." If I was really lucky, maybe keeping my elbows low at this point could intercept some of his knees, and if I'm nearly miraculously lucky, maybe the force of his knees could help me pop his elbows from the clinch - or maybe I could spike the upper thigh nicely with my own downward elbow.

This is just idle and mostly ignorant speculation, though.

[SevenStar]

You'll have to control the range and the pace of the fight. You want to avoid kicking range unless you have some d@mn good kicks. you also want to avoid clinch range, unless you are good with takedowns and are confident that you can break his balance and get him down. Ideally, I would try to remain at punching distance, which is where he's most likely going to be weakest. combination punches, but be weary of where he is, as you don't want to get into knee of elbow range. also, the roundhouse isn't necessarily a long range kick.

if he does manage to get you in plumb, place your hands on his hips to prevent knees from coming at you, and try to break the hold, possibly acheiving a plumb of your own if you are good in that position. Also, the front leg can be dangerous also even though it's not as poweful as the rear, it can still sting.

Be prepared to take shots, and don't expect your blows to hold him back completely. a MT guy will eat/absorb shots in order to launch a powerful attack of his own.

[Royal Dragon]

try wrapping both your arms up and in close to you so yur around his elbows from the outside, hang your body wieght on his elbows and as he starts to break chagrge in and ram him with your head driving forward continusly untill he losses his balance.

You may have to weather a few knees, but by pullinh im down yur going to be severly cutting his power so their effect will be diminished.

As the two of you fall, land on his groin with your knees or step in and stomp his solar plexius with your foot, or knees(Whatever is easiest). Roll clear as fast as you can, or go all BJJ on him if you have the skill.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Depends on the Thai Boxer. I've fought guys who were so fast and relaxed that you could pretty much forget beating them with timing - you had to crash and hope for the best. Those fights always started with a little war of attrition. Only REALLY good Thai Boxers can pull this off though...

For the others that aren't super-human ;), I've noticed that must Thai Boxers, while loose and relaxed, have VERY tight joints. Hence I work techniques designed to stress out thier joint structure. That is the only style specific strategy I apply.

Otherwise I fight them just like I fight anybody else. Just with a little more determination because Thai Boxers are definitly not granola chwers.

[fa_jing]

Here's an interesting question: I wonder if Thai fighters make any changes to their diet. 'Cause the traditional Thai food I've known, is extremely spicy. Imagine your stomach full of Thai Spice when you take a body shot! We may be able to defeat the Thai fighter, by taking him out to dinner! Bwahaahaahaa!

-FJ

[SevenStar]

I'm still a novice with judo and shuai chiao, but they have two nifty little pluses in their favor -

1. they are aggressive as hell and
2. They are used to fighting from the clinch.

The clinch may be a part of the MT fighter's game, but SC and Judo play the same game.

[Black Jack]

I am trying to remeber, is the traditional MT stance in the clinch squared off or bladed, I know that the Burmese boxing fighters have a bladed off stance in the clinch, I believe the MT fighters use more of a squared position.

Sevenstar?

[DragonzRage]

make no mistake about it, in a stand up war a good muay thai fighter is one of the hardest things to deal with imaginable. Good boxers definitely give MA'ists hell as well, and are more dangerous with the furious punch combos (obviously). But then boxers do not destroy your body at long range with a barrage of kicks, and you can't neutralize a thai fighter's weapons by hugging him because as everyone here obviously knows, that's when he starts tossing you around and destroying you with knees and elbows.

This, my friends, is exactly why I am predominantly a muay thai stylist :D
So here are my thoughts on beating muay thai...
Unless you are a skilled grappler in the clinch (ie strong wrestling background, shuai chiao, etc) you definitely do not want to be in the linch with a well trained MT fighter (and even then it is dangerous). One important thing to keep in mind tho is that there are many different "styles" of muay thai. Different skills may be stressed depending on the school or trainer. But with regards to your typical strictly thai style fighter, I would agree that boxing skills may be questionable. In Thailand kicks, knees, and elbow attacks are favored to hands because the Thais really want to stress the unique aspects of their art and deemphasize the influence of western boxing. To this day, even in American MT competitions you see the boxing get pretty sloppy sometimes. Another shortcoming of traditional MT that can be exploited IMO is the slow footwork. Don't get me wrong, MT has footwork, but it generally does not move around as quickly or as proficiently as say a quick footed boxer would. So if you have fast entry skills and can move in and out very quickly, this can be very frustrating for some MT guys. The Chinese Sanda fighters have avoided being pummeled in striking and won on many occasions against Thais using this strategy. In the UFC Vitor Belfort controlled the distance and managed to rush in quickly and dismantle Silva very quickly with a barrage of punches. In that fight Silva also demonstrated a tendency in MT to square up to your opponent and leave yourself vulnerable to straight blitzes up the center. Vitor capitalized on this by rushing in with what was basically a straight blast, which sent Silva backpedaling into the fence where Vitor finished him off.

I think this is a good general strategy for fighting MT in the striking department. Keep in mind that the weaknesses I mentioned do not always hold true. My trainer for example stresses good boxing over elbow attacks because in all the competitions we do elbows aren't allowed. For me personally, because of the boxing influence and because of my background in Jun Fan Gung fu/JKD, I move on my feet a lot more than most MT guys. So it all depends. If you meet a fighter who has strong MT technique but also has good boxing skills and is very mobile, then I'd say you're kinda SOL in terms of figuring out a superior striking strategy. It doesn't get much harder than that.

As for grappling, the obvious answer in the clinch is to gain control and not let him establish the plum (it'd be a good idea to learn MT techniques for countering attacks in the plum). From there you get the takedown. I think shooting in can be dangerous, especially if the MT guy knows the sprawl cuz you can end up in a bad position eating a lot of knees to the head and face. One of the most effective techniques that grapplers can exploit is kick catching.

Umm, I guess that's about it.

[SevenStar]

From my experience, squared. that way you can knee from both the front and the side. I'm not sure if that is the only reason why it is squared though.

[Dark Knight]

I'm still a novice with judo and shuai chiao, but they have two nifty little pluses in their favor -


The clinch may be a part of the MT fighter's game, but SC and Judo play the same game.

What will make the difference from winning and loseing is what you do at that point, hang around in the clinch and your going to eat elbows, react fast and take him down

[SevenStar]

yeah, definitely.

[dre]

No different than anyone else.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Pretty much.

Muay Thai has some good strengths: great fast twitch training, simple tools combined well, good power and of course realistic conditioning.

But unless the guy is super human (and I fought a guy like this - an Iranian who was much older than me- I ended up doing a pretty daring move to win because he was so fast, and he had such control of his distance that my head was quickly turning into a speedbag) you'd fight them pretty much like everybody else.

Of course familiarity with thier common strategies is helpful.

Oh, and while MT has training in the clinch, I think they only dominate it when confronted with a fighter that does not know how to use it to thier advantage.

But of course, MT should never be underestimated. It's killer stuff. I have a lot of respect for it.

[Wu-Xing]

"But unless the guy is super human (and I fought a guy like this - an Iranian who was much older than me- I ended up doing a pretty daring move to win because he was so fast, and he had such control of his distance that my head was quickly turning into a speedbag) you'd fight them pretty much like everybody else."

"you'd fight them pretty much like everybody else."
empashis on that line because i think its the best thing i have read on this thread so far.how about you all stop worrying about playing your opponents game and make them play yours.you need strong intent for this, or else, of course you will loose and it has nothing to do with MT ,it has to do with you being mentally weak.Maybe its the xing yi talking ,maybe not .attack with strong
intent and a heart like ice.

i have plenty of respect for MT and plenty of other styles. what p!sses me off is people asking how you deal with this ,how you deal with that.to hell with it.make them deal with you!

[MonkeySlap Too]

Wu Xing - I love your tag line - that's VERY Xing-yi. I'll think I'll scream that the next time I spar.

[Wu-Xing]

hehe ,go for it.tape it and send me a copy ;)

[MonkeySlap Too]

What's the saying in Xing-yi?

"In practice there is an opponent, in a fight there is no opponent."

You gotta love those old Xing-yi masters...

[Wu-Xing]

yeah, thats pretty much how it goes :)

[Merryprankster]

Same way I usually handle it--block or absorb, step in, and throw leather, or clinch. I'm pretty good in the clinch. If you control body position, you control the knees and elbows.

You're bound to take SOME damage, but if you avoid getting knocked out and you're dominating the clinch--well, that's what takedowns are for anyway.

Hell--you can shoot too.

I'm not fighting a thai boxer standing up, unless my hands are better than his.... Why would I do that?!

[TjD]

if i was to fight a MT guy (or anyone else for that matter), i'd fight how i trained

its what i do best so i have the best chance of getting it right and offing the guy

1. charge in (while avoiding/redirecting or absorbing kicks)
2. control wit my l33t chi sau skillz or uproot with my forward momentum - or both
3. destroy - be it an elbow or a kick while hes backpedaling, or a well placed palm or fist


the second you change your game plan your playing by their rules - this is what i train to do so in doing something else it wont be nearly as good; if they can beat me in my own game then i guess i need to train harder :)

peace
travis

[KnightSabre]

Well even though I train Muay Thai myself I wouldn't go toe to toe with a skilled Thai boxer and hope the best man wins,I'd go to his weakest range and take the fight to the ground.

The take down would have to be done effeciently to ensure that you don't get hit by a knee or a kick on the way in,the best way to do this would be following a jab cross combo putting him on the defensive or after he has launched an attack.I wouldn't recomend doing the take down from the clinch,although it is possible.

[scotty1]

Sevenstar said what I said.

Made my f*cking day.:D

[greendragon]

these guys scare me. i heard in thailand they break their legs at the shin just so they'll grow back thicker. I would not spar them, but in a fight i would use an iron broom or some kind of sweep, maybe even a kick to the supporting knee and move into ground fighting. the clinch/plum doesn't bother me, it's those flying knees & elbows.

[HuangKaiVun]

It depends on the context for me.

In a Muay Thai ring under Muay Thai rules, I'd find myself the best Muay Thai coach and train that style.

In the UFC octagon, I'd crosstrain in submission fighting and gloveless kickboxing so that I could deal with the standup game but be able to play the grappling game to bring the match to a quick conclusion.

In the street where everything goes, I'd grab the nearest object and try to beat him down with that object. And then I'd use every cheap trick I can think of.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by greendragon
these guys scare me. i heard in thailand they break their legs at the shin just so they'll grow back thicker. I would not spar them, but in a fight i would use an iron broom or some kind of sweep, maybe even a kick to the supporting knee and move into ground fighting. the clinch/plum doesn't bother me, it's those flying knees & elbows.

the plumb is where the knees come from much of the time.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by TjD
if i was to fight a MT guy (or anyone else for that matter), i'd fight how i trained

its what i do best so i have the best chance of getting it right and offing the guy

1. charge in (while avoiding/redirecting or absorbing kicks)
2. control wit my l33t chi sau skillz or uproot with my forward momentum - or both
3. destroy - be it an elbow or a kick while hes backpedaling, or a well placed palm or fist


the second you change your game plan your playing by their rules - this is what i train to do so in doing something else it wont be nearly as good; if they can beat me in my own game then i guess i need to train harder :)

peace

1. you don't wanna absorb a hard roundhouse - you'd do better to yield or get out of the way. if you can't do either of the above in time, then block.

3. the elbow is a major part of the MT game, he will most likely be able to defend against it, unless you are able to catch him off guard. also, keep in mind that most MTs nowadays have boxing incorporated into their training - they will do more than merely back pedal.

I've never sparred a really good trapper, nor have I seen a MT guy spar one, so I can't comment too much on point 2.
travis

[Kungfu boy]

on this one.... get the closest object and beat him with it. I train thai myself and I'm okay at it consideringI only have about 1 year experience. Now I train with some real good guys, and I know it can't get much worse then fighting them but why would I bother going at it when I could just grab a pipe and go to town on him.

As for what Wu Xing saud, I totally agree man. How would I fight any style/person? The way I was taught. I make people deal with my thai and if they can deal with that, I switch to jkd or kali. Beauty of it is it all combines into a pretty fluid system. JKD hands/traps, thai kicks and kali footwork, most people can't deal with it.

All in all, be a well rounded fighter and have no worries gents.

[TjD]

1. you don't wanna absorb a hard roundhouse - you'd do better to yield or get out of the way. if you can't do either of the above in time, then block.

3. the elbow is a major part of the MT game, he will most likely be able to defend against it, unless you are able to catch him off guard. also, keep in mind that most MTs nowadays have boxing incorporated into their training - they will do more than merely back pedal.

I've never sparred a really good trapper, nor have I seen a MT guy spar one, so I can't comment too much on point 2.


*********************
1. well... DUH :) from my experience the charging in has a lot to do with "absorbing" a roundhouse... its more getting in darn close so the roundhouse doesnt kill me :) or jamming the roundhouse before it has a chance to kill me
basically, if my WC is good, ill get in there before he can knock me the F out with a roundhouse kick, or if he tries my chi gerk will be there fore me

3. as to elbows - i'm not really all that afraid of anyones elbows... i deal with them day in and day out in chi sau nowadays (my sifu has beeng getting really cool lately with me and a few of his higher level students - ie. go right ahead and throw all the elbows you want in chi sau, just dont kill each other); personally with all the time i've devoted to elbows, and the amount of emphasis wing chun places on them.... i think ours elbows are just as good as muay thai's, if not better :) but who knows, i've never sparred the people

basically what it comes down to for me is once theres some sort of contact, its all either chi sau or chi gerk or both and im on autopilot. i dont really know what i'd do because i'd just let it flow - cuz thats what ive been trained to do

if the muay thai guy has more experience than me, chances are ill get KTFO'd; but i'm going to fight the way i've trained to fight, doing anything else WILL get me KTFO'd :)

peace
travis

[TjD]

as to "trapping" i wouldnt say wing chun is about that at all; chi sau trains us to get in there and dominate, if you "trap" your opponents arms thats fine and dandy, but from my experience there wont be all that much "trapping" going on if the guy has any clue about what hes doing (ie. he doesnt leave his arms out there for me to trap)

getting in close, jamming him up, offbalancing/uprooting him, getting behind him, getting where his arms cannot damage me much while leaving me in a more advantageous situation, thats what chi sau is all about

and the best part about chi sau is when you train it enough it, stuff just HAPPENS, no thinking about anything, its just there for you - a lot of the times when im sparring or whathaveyou, something will come out of nowhere without me realizing it until after the fact and i've kicked some ass, or saved myself from being knocked on my ass ;)

but my main point is, vs anyone i think you should stick to the game plan you've trained... in wing chun there arent very many :) get in there and kick some ass, so to me its not as much of a debate as to some MMA guy whose trained in 30 different styles and has 30 different ways to go about kicking someones ass

**not trolling anyone - the following is my opinion only**
i feel that if i train my "getting in, chi sau/chi gerk, destroy the dude" tactic over and over and over again, as opposed to training 30 different methods of taking someone out, chances are in any situation that instead of having myself spread out over many different entering strategies, i'll be better off

for example, say i've trained my "go in, kick some ass" method 1000 times, and you've trained method 1 100 times, method 2 100 times... method 10 100 times; and i come in at you with my "go in, kick some ass method"

whose going to win? my votes for me, because i've devoted 10 times more time to my "go in and kick some ass" method, than youve devoted to any of your 10 methods of kicking my ass

sure, one of those methods may be near guaranteed to knock me out, but when it comes down to the wire how are you going to know which one, and be able to perform it to the ability where it will? in a real fight i doubt youll have the time to switch game plans

what if i'd specifically trained my "go in, kick ass" against that method 100 times? whose to win now, even if you do choose your right method? what if there is no guaranteed win right method?

i have one thing which i know works, i think i should perfect it instead of spreading myself thin :) thats why if you ask me "what would you do against martial artist A?" chances are itll always be the same answer :)

peace
travis

[dezhen2001]

good post TjD :)
Shock horror - 2 WC guys agree on something :D

david

[TjD]

i just called satan and he said that hell was experiencing some abnormal snowstorms :) :)

something must be up!!

[dezhen2001]

i wondered why it was so cold here ;)
Anyway, i'm a newbie so what do i know about WC? :p

david

[TjD]

all i know is wing chun is the freakin coolest

the last few months have just been amazing for me... my sifu started a biu jee level only class - which has just been AWESOME :) :) :)
i've even started learning the knives!!! hoo-ray :)

it seems like everything about it is just falling into place for me and making so much sense

WC is the best thing since sliced bread IMHO

i'm guessing we have to be the same lineage to agree on something, whose your sigung?

personally i'm ip ching style

peace
travis

[dezhen2001]

well, my tai sigong is ip chun, so pretty close ;) Also i'm no-where near that level yet, but have played the dummy, pole and knives a little (enough to know i need to train MUCH more and they're VERY hard to do!) :)

i'm in the chatroom now if ur free to chat?
http://www.kungfuonline.com/chat.html

david

[TjD]

ahhh no chat today :) gotta go get my hair cut and get my butt to work *sigh*


have a good one tho!

peace
travis

[dezhen2001]

no problems :)
c ya,

david

[Mutant]

control the distance, utilize linear/centerline techniques inside his round techniques, launch side kicks from outside & straight punches...then get inside quickly and jamb, trap, turn, as soon as feel leg move for knee or kick go for uproot/offbalance & takedown and pound.

[Mr.Sleazy]

This is kind-of foolish. There is no such thing as a "perfect" counter to Muay Thai moves, just like there is no perfect counter to WingChun, or TKD, or BJJ etc.

To counter a MuayThai fighter, just use the techniques that you practice the most, are your most confident, and you have found through sparring to be the most effective. Then try really hard.

The real answer to this one is to train as hard as a MuayThai fighter does. Don't count on automatically using some specific technique to counter the clinch or roundhouse, just use your own best techniques, the ones you consider your "strengths", practice and train. MuayThai's strengths lie in its training intensity and inclusion of knees, elbows and clinching in ring fighting, allowing these to be practised all the time.

[greendragon]

7*, i see that the plumb is pulling you into the knee strokes but i would use my elbows to block the knees and with his hands tied up he is SO open..

[Water Dragon]

But he has your head controlled. And that makes all the difference

[SevenStar]

he has your head, so he has your balance. Also, knees don't only got straigh forward. they go directly upward, and also around, striking the side of the body. the knees can be used in combiations of the variants - I wouldn't rely on blockin with the elbows. you want to control his hips so that he can't fire off the knees - this is taking the bullets out of the gun.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Mr.Sleazy
This is kind-of foolish. There is no such thing as a "perfect" counter to Muay Thai moves, just like there is no perfect counter to WingChun, or TKD, or BJJ etc.

To counter a MuayThai fighter, just use the techniques that you practice the most, are your most confident, and you have found through sparring to be the most effective. Then try really hard.

The real answer to this one is to train as hard as a MuayThai fighter does. Don't count on automatically using some specific technique to counter the clinch or roundhouse, just use your own best techniques, the ones you consider your "strengths", practice and train. MuayThai's strengths lie in its training intensity and inclusion of knees, elbows and clinching in ring fighting, allowing these to be practised all the time.

I don't think the originaly intent was foolish, the posts just took an unexpected turn and it ended up that way. The original intent was asking what YOU with YOUR style and YOUR personal abilites would do. same as analyzing an opponent for a fight. I know that he's strong here, so I need to get better here, I am strong at this, so I will try to capitalize on it, etc. of course you will fight how you are trained, and that's whe's getting at. based on how you are trained, how would you deal with someone trained in MT. it just kind of degenerated into a style vs. style thing.

think of it more as a strategy thread. for example, I have an awesome left leg roundhouse, a strong straight right and good knee strikes off both legs. Knowing this, how would I capitalize on it? I am already expecting my kick be blocked, but most likey it will disrupt his his balance or attack at least slightly, which may allow me to move closer inside, which is where I thrive. My whole game plan would be to get inside and then do what I do best.

[SevenStar]

I almost forgot!!! Refer to the first quote in my sig. That's what this thread is basically about. A while back, there was a thread along these lines called "What's your delivery system?" it may still be around. It was a strategy thread, like this one should be.

[Water Dragon]

Exactly!!!
No matter who I fight, I want to charge in and throw them hard (repeat if necesary)

However, If I know I'm fighting a Boxer, I'll probably crash through the center so that I can smother him. That would get me killed by a Hsing Yi guy, I'd be playing into his strength. I'd probably try to cut an angle and throw the Hsing Yi guy from behind. A boxer's footwork is to good for that to happen.

It;s all the same idea, just a different way of achieving it. In the street, where I don't know if the other guy's trained and vice-versa, I'd probably just charge down the center and throw.

The question was how would YOU deal with a muay thai guy. Not how EVERYBODY should deal with a Muay Thai guy.

[Mr.Sleazy]

OK Sevenstar, you are not silly.

I train MuayThai myself, so the way I would deal with a MuayThai fighter would have to be to out-MuayThai them.

For the roundhouse, I like to try to catch their kick. To do this requires good timing, of course, because if you do it wrong you catch it on your head or on your thigh. When you see them loading up for the kick (assuming rear leg roundhouse), angle-step inwards and right (to absorb power) and wrap your arm around their leg, then go for a takedown.

For the clinch, the defense we are taught is to block the incoming knee with crossed forearms, then reach under and try to catch the leg, again for a single leg takedown.

As for specific MuayThai weaknesses, depends if we are talking about a ring-fight and which kind or just an all-out battle. Ring fighting (MuayThai rules) and there really are no serious weaknesses. Run away, or out-MuayThai them. Ring Fighting (SanShou style) I'm sure there would be weaknesses but I am not familiar enough with SanShou to know them. Ring fighting (NHB style) the only serious weakness would be grappling. In an all-out self-defense type battle, then techniques prohibited or impossible in MuayThai fights (clawing, kicking the nads, gouging, and again, grappling) would probably be the way to go.

My previous point still stands, however - you would really need to out-train them, not out-technique them.

Finally, there is the caveat - I am only a white belt!!

[Mutant]

sleazy, your point that you must fight your fight and what you train, as well as be adequately conditioned is valid and a good generalization.

but the question was asking for specific stategies against a specific kind of fighter. if you go in pre-programmed without considering adjustments and strategy against your particular opponent then you are not maximizing your potential. would you fight a grappler the same way that you would fight a boxer or a wing chun or tae kwon do guy?

'the art of war' is all about strategy on macro and microcosmic levels. technique also counts for a lot... sure training is important, but training alone is not everything.

i didnt know they have belts in muay tai?

[Mr.Sleazy]

I don't know about other schools, but mine has belts (actually sort of sashy type things) in MuayThai, but no-one ever seems to bother wearing theirs. You can't move beyond a certain level without entering the ring, either...

My impression is that the famous Thailand MuayThai camps don't have belts, but in North America, things are different.

[SevenStar]

We didn't have ranks - unless you wanted to teach. then you had to go through levels, for example, level 3 was considered a coach. at that level you could teach, but could not promote, similar to a blue belt in bjj. level 4 was jr. instructor, 5 was asst. instructor and level 6 was instructor. I think that was the way it went - there may have been more levels. I wasn't interested in teaching so I didn't get into all that.