Flowery Hands

[red5angel]

Wing Chun is a minimalist art, we shoot for the smallest movement to neutralize or attack. Some joke that it is a lazy art but I prefer to think and refer to it as an efficient art. Some of you have asked me what I see I don’t like in other WingChun schools, well this is one of the biggest. in the schools I have visited, you can see hands all over the place, floppy or flappy arms and long strikes! While this is going on, most will look you straight in the eye and tell you they use economy of motion, that their movements are small and efficient!
To go along with this is the idea of sticking to our opponents! They do not have personal space as far as we should be concerned, we close in and get as close as we can and still do our damage. If you arms are flying around out in space between you and your opponent, your structure is broken and your fear shows.
Someone asked a few weeks back about Pak Sau, how close to the chest or shoulder it should be. When Carl Dechiara was at my school last January for a seminar, he said that it should be very close to the body. This doesn’t at first seem logical but if you examine the facts you will understand that this gives you time to react. Some one pointed out that the punch may make it through, but if you are doing it right, your pak does not have to move very far to take the energy from that punch, the rest enters your body harmlessly and with good rooting, away from you into the ground. when he demonstrated this his hand barely moved, just enough to negate most of the energy of the attack! that’s is all you need, enough energy to stop your opponent from reaching his goal and allowing you to reach yours.
What it comes down to is that many people just don’t have the confidence in their skill or the knowledge to understand exactly what this conservation of energy! This is one of the reasons I am so pumped to learn from who I am learning from!

[Miles Teg]

Hey

Just out of curiosity how can redirecting/blocking with a pak sau allow for the energy to go to the ground, as it is a side ways motion. Im familar with how this could be accomplished in various other ways.

Or were you speaking in general terms?

Also when you say close to the body, how close? Is the angle of the arm under 90 degrees?

[red5angel]

Miles, the energy that you would be soaking up is the energy that your pak does not deflect if any gets through. the idea is that if you are well grounded if the strike gets through a little then the energy left over that is transferred gts sent to the ground.
the Pak depends really, it can be ****her out I am just using it as a good example of what it can be and doesnt necessarily have to be. If it is close it is very near your chest and shoulder. as it moves it may be under, at or over 90 degrees.

[dragontounge2]

Are you saying that your arms should be very close to the body? If the arms are too close you could get trapped they have to be the perfect distance. Keep the arms low for a pak sao so they go for the head and highy for a low pak.

[red5angel]

Dragontoungue2 - anything can happen in a fight, if and or discussions often lead nowhere. A close pak sao works I have seen it in action. Like anything it isnt perfect but the idea is that we use minimal movement to get what we need done. you right you could be trapped, but you could be trapped close to if the other guys is a better chess player. With small movements you conserve energy, only give out what you need to.

[dragontounge2]

What are you talking about? If the arms are too close to the body you move a further distance right?????;)

[red5angel]

Nope, not necessarily. Try it, if you have a good root you will see what I mean, your hand barely has to move to take most of the energy out of the strike, the rest can be diverted.

[dragontounge2]

Maybe if you can break the laws of motion. The longer away from something you are the longer it takes to get their.explain how you do pak sao.

[aelward]

Minimalist motion is good. Economy of motion says you use the least amount of energy to accomplish the most. However, that does not mean your small motions will cover everything, especially as the distance between you and your opponent increases.

As for pak saos, I am going to say that they are not the most effecting defenses for stopping straight punches; this is because when used in this fashion, the pak sao is reactive and it only protects your hand-length (about 8 inches) of your centerline. It leaves a lot of room for human error. I think pak saos are much more handy when you want to switch bridges (i.e., convert a bridge arm into an attack and reestablishing a bridge with the other hand).

The close body pak sao does not have a large window of opportunity to stop a punch- this means both the 8-inches of verticle centerline your hand covers, as well as the horizontal space that your opponent's punch covers. The timing has to be perfect, because if it is too early, they will hit the blade of your hand (or, if you pak-ed past center, they will still hit your center); if your pak is too late, they have already hit you. Sure your stance and rooting might be able to absorb the energy, but wouldn't it be better not to get hit at all? Especially if their punch is aimed at your head?

Compare this to the 45 degree pak sao found in the third section of the SNT. Whether your are early or late, you can still catch the attack-- early, you catch at the wrist, late, you catch at the elbow. Either way, you should be stopping your pak sao on the plane between you and your opponent's centerlines (still minimal motion-- using just enough to get the job done). If they keep pushing forward and your pak sao is fixed, their punch will be redirected off to your shoulder; if they try to force their arm toward your centerline, they are compensating for your structure, and will actually be heading for your other shoulder-- you can jao sao into an uppercut here.

[dragontounge2]

You can also pak sao and swing your elbow over their striking arm and simultaneously kick the knee.

[Miles Teg]

Yeah I got it now

But in this case it would be pretty minimal though, right?

Unless the attacker changes the direction of his force towards your pak arm after contact.

[dragontounge2]

Originally posted by Miles Teg
Yeah I got it now

But in this case it would be pretty minimal though, right?

Unless the attacker changes the direction of his force towards your pak arm after contact.

what do you mean?

[aelward]

I assume you are replying to my example.

> But in this case it would be pretty minimal though, right?

I think it is pretty minimal: once again, doing the least amount to accomplish the most. R5A's example is even more minimal; but, unlike him, I'm not going to take the hit, not even a little of it, if I don't have to.

> Unless the attacker changes the direction of his force towards
> your pak arm after contact.

This applies to the people who just HAVE to force their hands toward your center, and it is most likely going to be a chi sao partner. Most people who are swinging their fists will probably retract their hand when it fails to hit (where upon which you can convert your pak into a straight punch: lai liu qu song, shuai shou zhi chong).

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by red5angel
If you arms are flying around out in space between you and your opponent, your structure is broken and your fear shows.
Careful, careful. Does Tai Chi not have structure? Does traditional wushu not have structure?

Someone asked a few weeks back about Pak Sau, how close to the chest or shoulder it should be. When Carl Dechiara was at my school last January for a seminar, he said that it should be very close to the body. Which pak sau are you talking about? Pak Sau is a VERY generic term.

if you examine the facts you will understand that this gives you time to react. Facts? Which facts? Fact is... if you need "time to react" you have poor timing.

[dragontounge2]

well we usually move to the left with pak sao so you have a number of attacks open. so even if he does retract his hand you would still be stuffing him up.

[Miles Teg]

aelward

most likely going to be a chi sao partner

Yeah, my non W.C buddies always follow through.


aelward

the pak sao is reactive and it only protects your hand-length

Thats a good point. In my old W.C school we were doing this stupid drill, where someone steps forward and punches, and the other person steps back and paks. Anyway there was this blind guy in the class who I partnered up with, and he kept missing all my punches. For him a tan would be the best answer, or just waiting until he felt contact on his man sau.

dragontounge2

What do you mean move to the left?

[mun hung]

R5A - is that the only pak sau you've been taught?

[reneritchie]

r5a - that's basically how the movement we have there (we don't call it Pak Sao because we aren't using "slapping" power) works. It's close body, receiving (you can dissipate the force due to its altered angle combined with the alignment of your palm to horse (ie, don't let it escape out your elbow)).

Note: the second time we do this movement, it is further away. Both have their time and place. The key, IMHO, is not so much which version is right or wrong, but when each version is optimal or detrimental 8)

In general, I do think WCK favors the economical approach. Why step if you can turn? Why turn a lot if you can turn a little. Why turn a little if you don't have to turn at all? We have the saying Yee Ching Jai Dong (Use Stillness to Overcome Movement).

Rgds,

RR

[Miles Teg]

They have the same saying in Tai Chi dont they?

[reneritchie]

Hi Miles,

I don't know if they have the same saying or not, I haven't looked at a lot of Taiji material. If they do, do they use the same characters?

As Joy and others have mentioned, some sayings originate far back in Chinese culture, with sources like Sun Zi. For example, Wing Chun Kuen makes use of "Double Results with Half Effort", which is very close to Judo's "Maximum Results with Minimum Effort" (haven't seen the Kanji so might even be same characters.

Good strategy is good strategy 8)

RR

[dragontounge2]

Originally posted by Miles Teg
aelward


Yeah, my non W.C buddies always follow through.


aelward


Thats a good point. In my old W.C school we were doing this stupid drill, where someone steps forward and punches, and the other person steps back and paks. Anyway there was this blind guy in the class who I partnered up with, and he kept missing all my punches. For him a tan would be the best answer, or just waiting until he felt contact on his man sau.

dragontounge2

What do you mean move to the left?

when you are facing you opponent you make contact with the hand and simutainously move to the left pushing off your back leg moving forward. What do you do?

you only go to the left a little bit to have the edge on their body.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by red5angel
Someone asked a few weeks back about Pak Sau, how close to the chest or shoulder it should be. When Carl Dechiara was at my school last January for a seminar, he said that it should be very close to the body. This doesn’t at first seem logical but if you examine the facts you will understand that this gives you time to react. Some one pointed out that the punch may make it through, but if you are doing it right, your pak does not have to move very far to take the energy from that punch, the rest enters your body harmlessly and with good rooting, away from you into the ground. when he demonstrated this his hand barely moved, just enough to negate most of the energy of the attack!

If you're talking about the first set movement after the tan sao, wu sao, fook sau series of movements, then you're not talking about a pak sau.

Regards,

[Beowulf]

Originally posted by red5angel
Dragontoungue2 - anything can happen in a fight, if and or discussions often lead nowhere. A close pak sao works I have seen it in action. Like anything it isnt perfect but the idea is that we use minimal movement to get what we need done. you right you could be trapped, but you could be trapped close to if the other guys is a better chess player. With small movements you conserve energy, only give out what you need to.

Your movements should be directed toward your opponent's center when possible.

Cheers,

[red5angel]

"then you're not talking about a pak sau. "

COrrect me if I am wrong here Grendel but arent those moves folowe up with a pak sau? At the end of the first subset?

[Grendel]

Originally posted by red5angel
"then you're not talking about a pak sau. "

COrrect me if I am wrong here Grendel but arent those moves folowe up with a pak sau? At the end of the first subset?
Hi Red5Angel,

Ken Chung calls that technique after the first subset as above, a "gnoy pak." We use just enough extension to deflect the opponent's incoming strike past our head and therefore, away from our center.

As I understand it, pak sau energy goes into your opponent's center along the path of his attacking limb.

Regards,