Masters and their battles

[shaolinboxer]

I was reading a thread in which on KFOer asked HuangKaiVun "if I could break your bones with a light slap, but I didn't hit hard, would internal v. external still be BS."

I find this statement interesting, because in my recent research it seems that bone smashing would be the opposite of what great masters have historically done to deal with those who wish to try conclusions.

Rather, it seems that the displays of the highest level of mastery involved two key components:

1) Witnesses see no intense exertion on the part of the master
2) The attacker is unharmed

Yes there are many stories of great conclusion trials that ended in injury or death, but the great internal masters were (and are) able to convince their opponents not to continue without having to resort to destroying anything but their ego (see Robert W. Smith, Chinese Boxing: Masters and Methods).

Which brings me to another topic....what I'll call "righteous destruction vs loving protection".

Righteous destruction may be defined as using your abilites to to end conflict through morally appropriate injury to your attacker. You are completely justified but the other guy gets hurt.

Loving protection (yes, a corny hippy sounding term used by the founder of aikido) may be defined as using your abilities (as our hypothetical great master would) to end conflict with no injury to either party.

Can it be said that one is superior to the other? Should loving protection be our goal, or righteous destruction?

[Naturalkilla]

Well, it seems you have found some very contradictory-slandering dogma to me. I definitely agree with you on your point about Taiji/internal experts. Take for example, the myths surrounding Yang Luchan: he never injured anyone that he showed superiority over and went out of his way to protect them (keeping one fighter from falling off a high wall, for instance). Or, the more modern Chen Fake, who showed his superiority with a Shua-jiao master very subtlely by simply joining hands with him and taking his balance away through doing this.

I don't get this person's concept of internal vs. external either, as I see it as irrelevant. Put simply, sure on a high level you could potentially cause great damage, but seeing as how 99% of the internal populace is content with slow-dancing and has never even graced the scene of push-hands, etc while most committed external artists train hard enough to send their fists through heavy bags I don't think that the "vs." one being better than the other concept carries much weight as it is the individual and not the system in particular that makes the difference.

[HuangKaiVun]

I don't remember that quote because I didn't see it myself.


I guess that person be right if he (or anybody else) could break my bones like that.

Yet when was the last time any of us saw somebody break somebody's bone with a light slap? With that kind of deadliness, such a martial artist ought to be afraid to burp a baby or even touch hands with his sifu in practice!

As far as witnesses seeing no great exertion on the part of the master, that's just ignorance speaking. George Foreman doesn't look as if he moves fast or hits hard (to the untrained eye), but try going against George Foreman in the ring. That guy MOVES, he hits HARD, and he's got as much power as anybody anywhere.


Keep in mind that there can be no "loving protection" without the willingness to cause "righteous destruction". And Morihei Ueshiba FOUGHT AND FOUGHT AND FOUGHT AND FOUGHT, especially when he was in China.

Otherwise Osama would be killing us right now.

[shaolinboxer]

I actually received a light snapping palm to the chest once from a training partner that did not hurt at all, then the next day I could barely breathe due to the pain of expanding my chest (good time to practice belly breathing). After visiting an herbal doc in chinatown for treatment, it healed. I never received an injury like that from sparring or competing.

I just find it interesting that there is this ideal state of technique so advanced that you can handle people completely without hurting them....I just don't know if it's actually possible. After all, if someone want to try conclusions with you, is it really your responsibilty to see that they don't get hurt?

Stumblefist: Your sensei's experience with the late Gozo Shioda is intersesting and unfortunately not uncommon. There are many aikido sensei who have injured other aikido sensei permanently, and they are infamous for harming advanced american practitioners. Why? Who knows (although I can think of a few reasons) but it is a major problem constantly being brought up in the aikido community. Don't forget the Chinese and the Japanese have mojor gripes with one another, and often a chinese martial arts practioner and a japanese martial arts practitioner intend to share knowledge and then, bang, it's on and someone has to get hurt for there to be a conclusion. One thing O-Sensei didn't count on was the fact that his cooperative art would create so many inferiority complexes.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings,

Perhaps it is the situation that dictates the response.. righteous destruction may be appropriate where the opponent will continue to harm others.. loving protection may be equally appropriate as a tool for educating.. in either case, the intentions of the participants will, ultimately, dictate the conclusions..

It is interesting that some interested parties focus on the worst possible aspects of internal energies (burping babies, etc..) while failing to recognize that to achieve that degree of proficiency, surely the player has developed a similar level of control.. but, some will throw stones, some will build houses..

My own mentor laughs and says why do you think your feet are connected to the ground.. to give you the opportunity to simply walk away.. the hardest fight is the one internal.. The Master knows the difference..

[Former castleva]

Quite a good thread I think.
I often end up thinking about the same thing.
Sure I believe someone with a high level of skill could stop blind&furious attack of ignorant without much injuries.
Not to mention that there is a thin line between loving protection and righteous destruction.
That line must be there for one to cross at some point.
I think of skilled artist as him/her as one who possesses protective and understanding will with one,one with conditioned palms and a soft heart.
Even if one has to use righteous destruction he takes it to the point where few are able to.I think O´Sensei´s high idea of martial ability was to stop conflict before it begins.
So even those with infected spirit would learn and see,at least have the change,once.
I think it is said at those circles,at times,that one would be able to stop the conflict with minimal injury,this same idea seems to lie there in other arts too.
Loving protection as long as it is possible.
Ed Parker,creator of kenpo karate said something like "It is hard to show brotherly love for one who is trying to stab you with a knife".
From this quote one could see that goal/purpose would still be to serve for harmony.
Maybe if one would internalize this idea of protective attitude,be good to nature.
Maybe nature would respond to you with happy manners enlightened from your surprising attitude,possibly this kind of attitude would slowly minimize the number of those with stagnated senses.

I hope this helps,slightly.
Drugs are getting to me,so please forgive if being confusing.



;)

[HuangKaiVun]

Taichibob, point me in the direction of a REAL MASTER who can indeed break a bone with a light strike.

By your own admission, you're NOT SKILLED ENOUGH to answer my questions, and that's why you call my motives into question. In short, you don't know ANYTHING about what such a practitioner with this type of skill would do in the situations I postulated.

It's so typical of low level practitioners like yourself to ridicule those novices like myself who SEEK ANSWERS.

Find me a REAL EXPERT to teach me. Please.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

HuangKaiVun.. first, please reread the postings and point out to me my "admission".. second, please be mature enough to make the journey to my place of training (email me and i will give you the location) and meet me in person before making public statements regarding your opinion of my "status".. you have no actual evidence supporting an opinion of my skills or lack thereof.. you may, indeed, have an opinion of my ability to communicate, the evidence is before you. I encourage you to meet me with an open mind, and a willingness to have both a verbal and physical communication.. then, and only then are you qualified to opine of the "level" at which i practice. I have no notion that there will be "conclusions", i only desire that before someone makes public statements regarding the skills of another, they experience those skills first-hand.. from that point on, you have evidence to support your opinion of someone's skills, until then.. you only embarass yourself with unfounded statements and detract from the seriousness with which the majority of the members here pursue their training.. Please don't mistake this as a challenge, it is not.. i only offer you an opportunity to add substance to your otherwise empty evaluation of the skills of another.. Certainly, if after meeting, you remain convinced that i am but a "low level" practicioner.. i will, by all means, respect your opinion.. recognizing, of course, that opinions are like..... well, we all know that one..

I claim no status.. i am no more than who i am.. your mission, if mature enough to accept it, is to find-out for yourself.. who i am..

My humble apologies to those that would rather see this type of dialogue go away.. it is unnecessary and trivial.. but, i am well-intended.. it is with "loving protection" that i make this post..

Be well..

[Nexus]

Of course when you walk into the school and walk up to TaiChiBob, he points at his teacher and says, 'Oh yah, that's TaiChiBob over there. I heard him talkin about you the other day, somethin about a internet warrior'.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Thanks, Nexus.. i hadn't considered that technique.. but, in true Tai Chi fashion it is a great deflection.. 4 ounces of hot air deflecting a hurricane of prejudice.. (i like it)

I hope my previous post is received in the spirit which it was intended.. only an offer to add substance to unfounded remarks.. i am not prone to challenges or conflicts, i come here to share insights and experiences.. in hindsight, i would have better served my own purposes, and likely the purposes of this thread, if i had ignored certain remarks.. but, regardless, and as always, i invite anyone to visit the Temple and exchange experiences and insights.. i can only benefit from such encounters (heck, even a good thrashing is a lesson learned, hopefully)..

Be well.. do good deeds (deeds define us)..

[HuangKaiVun]

Take you on your polite invitation, I WILL.

I have sent you a private message, TaiChiBob. I am interested in seeing for myself that which you offer - and even you in person!

As I stated in my private message, I am in the process of moving and changing jobs. Thus I cannot get out for about a year. But rest assured that I WILL visit, as Orlando is a wonderful place with its own set of attractions.

I desperately want to see somebody do the techniques I've called into question. If not you, then somebody you know. And even if not, it'll still be fun for us to see each other IN PERSON.

Do you have a website, TaiChiBob?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings, HuangKaiVun..

I am deeply honored that you accept my invitation.. <respectful bow>.. i have only my web-page under my member profile on AOL.. I will try to figure out how to send you the link to my Home-page.. (computer technology is far more challenging than the Arts, for me at least).. i will respond by email ( my address is TzuJanLi@aol.com)..

Be well.. and again, thanks for accepting my invitation.. it is sincere and well-intended..

[Walter Joyce]

Perhaps this is a little late in the thread, but I did have a friend/training partner who could break patio bricks with what he called a finger drop palm. He would rest his fingertip on the surface of the brick, and then drop his palm. There was quite q bit of body twisting that accompanied the drop, and it didn't work 100% of the time, nevertheless he could and did break the patio brick from that distance. Not exactly a slap, but pretty impressive.

[RAF]

Walter Joyce:

That's very interesting. In the system I study we refer to it as "ta zhang" or collapsing palm. In the Yang style taijiquan I practice, one interesting area of application is used in brush knee. The forward hand applies this technique to the area near the heart.

One of the reasons that this application is devastating is the initial strike is by the finger and the body unconsciously prepares to be hit at that point. However the impact from the palm is below where the area is more relaxed and more damage can then be inflicted.

The power of that strike actually starts in the foot, travels along the leg, through the waist, then shoulder, elbow wrist and palm. We use this technique and principle in a lot of Northern systems. Would include baji, bagua, pi gua and some forms of mantis. Li Shu Wen, the baji master, perfected this technique when striking the bai hui point (top of head) to where he could compress the opponents head and neck and death immediately resulted with that one blow.


In the Chen's form, the strike is done similiarly but with the knife edge of the hand.

I think I am off the topic but had to respond to your comment about the friend's palm striking technique.

[Walter Joyce]

RAF
He was studying Yang at the time. I haven't seen him in years, though.