Stepping Back.....

[DelicateSound]

Right on queue kids, it's the Troll Board Disclaimer:

DISCLAIMER:"This intention of this thread is merely to benefit my own self-knowledge. It is not intended to provoke any negative reaction from any parties. I am not affiliated with any political section of any Wing Chun branch, nor do I claim to represent any persons other than myself. My position regarding the art of Wing Chun is one of somewhat limited knowledge. Therefore any errors in historical, political or traditional statements are unintentional. Any errors in terminology are also unintentional, and will be rectified if suitable noticed. Any comments made on this thread by myself should be considered as solely my own thoughts, unless otherwise stated, and therefore any feedback, positive or negative, should be directed solely at myself, unless otherwise applicable."

Thank you. :)
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What is your personal view on the Wing Chun "rule" of only stepping back once?"

*Is it to you a vehement rule, or a concept to facilitate aggressive fighting?
*How does your viewpoint alter on this subject when considering streetfighting, and grappling?







Thank you in advance for all input. :)

[fa_jing]

Well, the rule I heard was, you never step directly back, if you have to take a step back, it's at a 45 degree angle. If you step directly back, technically your opponent can keep the pressure on you, because we run forward faster than we can run backwards. But in sparring, I find myself stepping straight back all of the time, I wish this wasn't the case. But because the other guy usually doesn't come at me with maximum forward intention, I don't always take punishment for this. If you are going to move straight back, I advise a quick skipping motion like in JKD, to try to get some distance between yourself and the opponent fast.

On the other hand, I love it when my opponent steps straight back...I'll rush in right after him and because he's moving backwards, his strikes will have no sting. He's easily unbalanced at this point.

I need more training to ingrain the practice of stepping back only at an angle, and only if necessary. My recent experience with a Shaui Chiao man confirmed the need for yielding footwork - I kept finding myself in a position where he was pushing against my ribs on my lead side with his shoulder, kind of like a running back pushing through a mass of tacklers (American Football analogy.) Because I am lacking in my yielding footwork, he would cause me to backpedal and I would get taken down. I think the proper response might have been to take my front foot 270 degrees around backward, becoming like a rotating ball and spinning him off of me. Or, taking a step back at a 45 degree angle before he makes contact, creating space and striking.

-FJ

[DelicateSound]

Great reply Fajing - that's the kind of thing I was thinking of. Not to diss WC but sometimes the footwork seems a little "rigid", and on other times it seems perfect.

I guess the 45 degree thing is something you need to work out with a partner, preferably a guy of MMA background I guess.




Keep 'em coming guys :)

[aelward]

We often hear in Wing Chun that we should "always" move forward; or the corallary that we should "never" step backwards. While this is a great idea, that allows us to naturally become agressive, I think that some people take it as the infalliable gospel.

What happens when you have two WC guys, one bigger and more skilled than the other? If he, with his skill and power, pushes the smaller one back, yet the smaller one is able to step back into a strong position, is he wrong? On the other hand, wouldn't it be suicidal for the smaller guy to try to move forward into the larger?

Ideally, we will always be able to turn on our horse to redirect energy; but sometimes, that is not enough. I would say the next option would be to step to the side, and then angle in again; the next option would be to angle back at 45 degrees and be prepared to step in again; finally, the last option would be to step back. I think these are all valid options if you maintain correct leg structure (i.e., variations of YJKYM). Our choice should be natural and automatic, based upon the amount of force we are receiving.

Check this article:
http://www.wingchunkuen.com/journal/features/peterson_footwork.shtml

[dezhen2001]

Hi DS - like the disclaimer :D

For me, i haven't got much experience with WC, especially footwork. I've done some basic Juen ma, Huen ma and Bil Ma etc. but not quite sure how to use them properly yet. Right now i step where i have to step, sometimes it's straight back sometimes it's round or in. I've played with some of my mates who do Boxing and Muay Thai and things so far have been ok. Also some of my mates who do Aikido which although is not 'grappling' like Judo, MMA etc. it is still a powerful and excellent skill. So far i have done ok considering i've only been training 2 yrs :p

I'm not sure what you mean by 'aggressive'? I always thought u just do what has to be done? No need to be aggressive about it. Just have the right attitude and intent then things happen. That's why chi sau is important.

anyway, have fun when u start traiing,
david :)

[anerlich]

I try to avoid moving straight back.

But if I find in the "fog of war" ;) that I'm off balance to the rear and the alternative is falling on my butt, I'll take that back step.

It could happen to you, too.

Is the sprawl regarded as a backward step if you're defending against a leg takedown? If so, I'm going to be breaking that there rule a LOT.

[Alpha Dog]

not a rule.

[rogue]

How do you backup in WC?

The JKD backward skip is great on a flat open surface but in the real world it's dangerous to move blindly backwards. One solution that a instructor(non-WC) taught me was to put most weight on the front leg and use the rear leg(front is 12 o'clock, rear is 6) to feel for obstructions as you back up. You're basically in a karate front stance moving back. I use this all the time when sparring and so far it's worked like a charm detecting walls and other people sparring.

[anerlich]

not a rule.
I agree, Indeed, that was my point. It's not a training exercise, unless you regard its avoidance as one, e.g. working with your back to a wall, in a corner, etc.

How does WC step back? According to some people I've "debated" this with, one NEVER steps back and I should be banished from the clan for being so heritical to even consider it.

In TWC, we have a traditional "back step" which consists of stepping back into a lowered stance similar to the Shaolin-style horse, throwing a fut sao at the opponent to kee pthe path occupied. In practice, we tend to use boxing-style 50/50 weight displacement, so a backward step would look like a forward step with the film run backwards.

I never thought of that conscious use of the back foot to detect obstacles. Sounds nifty, I'm going to try that.

[fa_jing]

Well, we have a short backward step, the opposite of the forward short step. But I don't feel it creates enough distance, of course you can use it to readjust your distance, but I wouldn't use it to disengage entirely. I use it if I want to counterattack by making a tentative incoming blow fall short, then springing forward.
-FJ

[jesper]

Dont ever step back,......... Unless you really have to.

In combat there are two really important reasons not to step back unless you really have to.

First its tactically unsound, since you will loose the initiative, which is all important in a fight.
Second when you step back, you are stepping into unknown ground, Ie you wont notice the bottle lying on the floor right behind you etc.

That being said there are different ways of stepping back.
As a rule of thumb, you should always try to step back at an 45% angle. But if thats not possible you could go straight back.

As for the step itself I find that simply reversing our normal step, makes for the best option. Thats because it allows me to keep in contact with my opponent, and also to some extent guide him into a position favorable to me. And thus setting him up for a counterattack. That way I still will not have lost the initiative.

Now sometimes the short step is simply not practical. I will then use a "alternate backstep" where I shift from having one leg in front to having that leg in back.
Two things are important here.
1) keep your front leg close to your back leg, when you shift so as to not open yourself up.
2) counterattack immidiatly with either a kick or punch as soon as you have stepped back.
The counterattack is very important, because your backstepping has left you out of contact with your opponent, and it has also giving him the initiative. You must get that initiative back.

[dragontounge2]

I dont have to step back step side ways and change stance.;)

[Alpha Dog]

watch out for that bottle to your left...

[jesper]

You know what they say about assumptions dragontounge2

[Alpha Dog]

Originally posted by jesper
Dont ever step back,......... Unless you really have to.


The same could be said of moving forward.