Aikido madness

[TzuChan]

I just watched some clips of their grandmaster, euhm, can't believe it actually, he floored people without touching them, just by like .. waving beside them. Now I am openminded but this is really just stupid to me ..

Any opinions ?

[scotty1]

Nope.

[Kristoffer]

Let me think.... No.

[shaolinboxer]

Aikido, which is a cooperative art, is what you see in his demo vids, not challanges or combat. He is showing idealizations of his principals, so it is for learning concepts, not for showing off how good a fighter he is.

That's about all I can say without brining up the most boring argument I can think of.

[Former castleva]

Morihei Ueshiba (best known as O´Sensei) did and experienced things that make many of us shake our heads and wander.He was a mysterious martial artist,with unbelievable skill.
He did things that seem to nearly question the science,even though those people were there to see.
Here are some of his collected thoughts and ideas.Here you are:
http://www.cs.ucsd.edu/users/paloma/Aikido/artpeace.html

He had lots of training in different arts that he mastered,until he finally created aikido.

In some aikido dojos where practice may be taken lightly,relationship between uke and nage may look like uke ("opponent"-one who receives the technique) won´t resist that much and may fall helping one´s nage.
That kind of training can come in handy at some level but it does not actually relate to what you recognized.
With Ueshiba´s technique,I believe that dropping withouh significant touch could work.

I hope this helps for the beginning.

[shaolinboxer]

After reading many accounts of his life and technique, it seems Ueshiba was naturally adept at sensing peoples intent and movement through relaxed perception. Once he learned aikijujutsu, he was able to use these techniques and his natural ability to perform "effortless throws", like the many famed tai chi masters, or like how the gracies can manipulte opponents into intensly powerful holds using little or no strength (I believe they call this using "zero point")....Like getting someone to walk into a punch (which great ring fighters can do), he could make people walk into a throw.

[HuangKaiVun]

In Western medical physiology, there are 36 "death points" that when squeezed or struck can cause instant death.

When one is undergoing massage, of course these points are assailable. I had one of these points accidentally pushed by a Western medical doctor teaching chest percussion on a physical exam once myself and it wasn't pleasant.

It's a very different thing when a guy is RESISTING, though. The body has built-in reflexes to defend against such things - specifically PAIN.


I have met some very skilled aikidoka, and they are very tough guys. Some of them can throw people with little or minimal force, as leverage and positioning are important.

The skill level of the person getting thrown is a big deal. Throwing a bigger guy that doesn't know anything about combat is no big deal, even in a real fight. But if that guy has any knowledge about fighting, it'll be **** near impossible. Why don't we see guys flying around the ring in the UFC then?

[Braden]

I'd be very curious to hear of anyone's positive experiences regarding the martial aspect of aikido. Please share if you've had any. :)

[shaolinboxer]

"That's about all I can say without brining up the most boring argument I can think of."

I quote myself in regards to Brandon's request .


:p

;)

:)

[Braden]

SB - You're saying that what is demoed isn't how it would be done in martial, right? I'm just curious about people's experience with how it would be done martially.

[shaolinboxer]

If you hurt somebody with it, does that qualify it having been done martially? What is required before it is "martial"?

[Braden]

Don't ask me man, you're the one who made the distinction. ;)

[shaolinboxer]

Hehe, are you trying to trap me, my man? i see your deadly snare!

Hmmm...let's see..I'll try this: When you see a demo, both the thrower and the throwie are doing aikido. So let's define martial aikido as a situation in which only the thrower is doing aikido. Sometimes is looks like formal aikido postures, sometimes it looks kinda messy (like a fight) and sometimes it looks like not much at all (like o-sensei and other masters). The real difference is in what happens to the throwie, which can range from no effect, to very painful.

[HuangKaiVun]

Actually stumblefist, you are RIGHT.

I HAVE heard of guys dying due to accidental blows to these regions.

Every now and then, I'll hear of a young football player who got struck on one of these accupressure points and he'll go into arrhythmia. If I recall, Chen Xiaowang did just that to a guy that was dumb enough to attack him from behind with a bearhug.

Still, I myself wouldn't put too much emphasis on mastering such techniques. There are so many easier ways of disabling opponents without having to resort to Dim Mak capabilities. And the time I spent developing those skills I feel would be better used developing other more useable (at least for me) techniques.


One of my friends told me of an aikido sensei (his sensei's sensei) who was once asked by the local police to help them clear out a drug establishment across the street from his school. This was in America.

The man went over politely, but somebody jumped him with the knife. He intercepted the man's attack and immobilized him without injuring him. That scared the drug guys so badly they just UP AND LEFT.

I wasn't there to verify the story, but I can easily imagine that happening. That is the type of thing aikido is very well prepared for.

[old jong]

I practiced with quite a few high ranks when I was in aikido.Let me tell you non believers that you take the fall or something has to break and it's not rythme!...;)You don't do it for universal unity but to save yourself. The fall is an escape,not a goal for the practitionner. Some of these techniques could be devastative against a non-aikido guy who doe'nt know how to escape but most high ranking aikido people would simply control an attacker without hurting him. They can!...

[Black Jack]

Huang,

Unless I misunderstood your statement about how "that is the type of thing aikido is very well prepared for", I tend to not agree with Aikido and its bladed weapon defense training and mindset and in fact I would go so far as to say they are very unrealistic.

Just a few examples that I have seen would be telegraphed knife attacks commited from a long and respectable distance, unresistive knifers, lack of any aggressive feeder skills and a LOT of fine motor control techinques built into there limb manipulations and pain compliance methods.

I know that is a very generalized statement which does not take into consideration the background of the teacher but I will stand and more than not be flamed by it on a basic level. If a person wants to really find a highly evolved blade combatives system I would say take a look at a culture who has really lived, died and worked with the blade in a full 3-D manner such as the FMA and IMA arts.

Though there are other systems as well which are excellent-Military Combatives-Russian Systems-Banashay-Gakta-Thai-Tantojujitsu-Euro/Western-what have you.

[Former castleva]

I´ve heard/read lots of stories of the art used in "martial" way.
Sometimes though,when a post like "does it work in the streets/have you used... goes like "Yes.Everyday.I have not got into a conflict because of that."


;) :)

[Braden]

old jong - Can you comment on any of the schools around Ottawa/Hull?

[Mr Punch]

Dunno what exactly you mean by 'martial aspects'. (Of course IMO, I'd like to think H, but saying it don't make it so!!:rolleyes: ) If aiki is taught properly, it is, surprise surprise, a martial art.

I spent the first four years of my martial arts practice learning aiki solely. I then sparred with karateka and a kungfu geezer (despite sparring being an anathema to aiki - I wanted to see!). It worked pretty **** well.

I've since used it effectively in a couple of street scrapes, and a bar fight or two. Effectively meaning: without hurting myself or causing lasting damage on my attackers. I've also ****ed it up a couple of times, but even then, I think the aiki footwork and evasion techniques have saved me from a worse kicking than I got.

I'm lucky. My teacher is good. I don't think he's had much other martial experience, though he did fencing for a while as a much younger man, which he said sharpened his reflexes, timing, distancing and wrist manipulation. I don't know how much 'street action' he's seen but I get the impression he was an arsey wee ******* in his youth (no disrespect meant!). And at that dojo, there are many experienced bouncers, one of the chief trainers for the UK and Dutch riot police and side-handle baton courses, and several experienced karateka and kendoka.

Many people say: how is aiki a martial art?! Well, it's been a martial art in one form or another since the 12th century. When I have had to use it, it hasn't looked particularly like aiki, as I've always shortened the 'technique' considerably, but I'm still working on all of the aiki principles.

Nowadays, some people say the only good aiki is daito-ryu aikijutsu. Yes that is good. But it is a little too stiff, and has just as impractical training methods as most of modern aiki and most other martial arts. So then they say 'Yoshinkan riot police course'. Again, Yoshinkan teaches using some very very impractical drills, and the knife stuff, as BJ said, is fantasy, though based on some good ideas.

There is good aiki. There is bad aiki. There is practical aiki. There is impractical aiki. Unfortunately, most aiki is taught using very unrealistic drills: some of these have useful purposes, some do not.

I'm speaking from a realistic viewpoint, having trained in many different styles of aiki for over 11 years, and having had to use it... sorry chaps, but I'm not gonna post on this subject again, unless soemone has a specific question! General attacks on aiki can just carry on, I don't feel I need to defend it!!

[old jong]

Well, I was doing Aiki in Montreal and it was a long time ago (27 years ago to be precise!) I can not really comment on any dojo after all that time. But I heard from some sources that Aikido has becomes "harder" than it was back then.
"harder" could mean "easier to learn" in a sense...Could it be that our friend Seagal had some influence?...Anyway!;)

[Braden]

Mat - Thanks for your comments. I'm not sure where you got the impression anyone here was attacking aikido though.

Old Jong - Thanks. :)

[Mr Punch]

Just been shopping... had some time for reflection:

agree with stumblefist about positioning.

don't believe in finger throws, unless you've already completely taken you uke's balance...

have seen demos of no-touch throws, but usually they are bs. if you get the positioning right, you can 'lead' someone enough for them to fall, but the would have to be attacking you a la villains in scooby-doo, or very very drunk! usually, no matter, how much uke 'thinks' they are resisting, they really don't want to hurt the person who's just assumed a ridiculous position in front of them!

do believe in pinning people with two fingers, but the position you have them in just makes a simple matter of physics.

the death touch stuff is still bs in practical terms. well, if you believe in it, that's up to you! aiki uses a lot of nerve point techniques, as an assist to basic laws of physics, not as the be-all-and-end-all of the technique. i have had my forearm almost completely numbed and my fingers partially numbed for the best part of two weeks after one session (doing yonkyo for those who want to know). aiki nerve point work is very good.

old jong, i can't speak for montreal, but most aiki (i've trained in uk, france and here) has become softer since i started. and the teaching has become less effective. seagal's influence seems to have inspired a few people, and although his aiki is good, it is very much 'big man's' aiki and doesn't seem to work for a lot of shortarses, er, vertically challenged people... it is very hard, and by no means easier to learn.

[HuangKaiVun]

No disagreement from me here, Black Jack.

That instructor was able to stop his opponent that way. I can only say that for THAT situation, his aikido training worked. Who knows what would've happened in a different scenario.

But you are absolutely right about these things. That's why I'm doing as you're doing - trying to find guys who know this stuff.

[Mr Punch]

Braden. Why did I get the impression that aiki was under attack? Well, call me a delicate aiki flower if you like but check out the thread title!!:rolleyes:

[shaolinboxer]

Aikido is not any of the techniques in the currculum, but it can be expressed in any of the techniques in the curriculum. The techniques exist as a series of puzzles to solve. I think that is what most aikido practitioners are missing...they fail to keep in mind that the importance of the techniques is not the techniques. So when looking at aikido and thinking "that technique would never work" you are missing the point I think. Yes, aikido techniques can enable you to do aikido in a clever and possibly useful way, but if you do not see past the techniques you can never get at aikido. Remember that we are working backwards...the founder of aikido could do aikido well before he created a system designed to embody its meaning. So we have the shell to work with, from which it is possible to find and create your aikido.

[Mr Punch]

LOL at Stumblefist!

Ol' Gozo's never yet sent me a chrissy card, so I guess that's a no! Or he doesn't believe in Christmas!

I should rephrase. I liked your talking about being in the right place at the right time. Using this premise, finger throws can work. I have also seen people try to use the finger as the main point of leverage against a resisting opponent. And it worked :rolleyes: ! That was BS...

You said perfect timing, perfect technique etc. Right!
You said 'practicality'... with one finger? Sorry...!
How many did you type that with?!! OK, so one finger can be used for a few things, which I'm not going to go into on a family board, but... as the main fulcrum for a throw...?

And BTW, I have practised Yoshinkan, though not here yet, and nobody falls gracefully!!;) But like somebody (maybe yourself) said, it's not how you actually put uke down that makes the difference, it's getting to the point of balance in the first place.

And I still think Yoshinkan knife stuff is dangerous.

Shaolinboxer: I agree completely I think. Your explanation was a bit garbled this time. We practise techniques to learn principles, but all too often take the technique as the final concept.

[shaolinboxer]

Yeah, it does seemed garbled...I was trying to use the word "aikido" in two ways...one as a representation of the principals behind the technique and two as the art taken at face value (a series of techniques). So there is aikido, and aikido.

Guess it didn't work to well :(.

But we are in agreement :).

[Mr Punch]

Yes, we are in perfect agreement. I am also in agreement with Stumble.:)

But no group hug!

There is one aiki: the principle and the techniques should not be separated.

I think my problem with this is I've been hanging on the KFO for so long, where people often separate philosophy from practice. To me they are the same, be it wingchun, aiki, taichi, whatever... maybe different principles, but still principles in harmony with action.

It's a different mindset on the board, because it is so many people trying to reach consensus, common ground, or some semantic compromise, from so many different backgrounds in the arts and life.

I'm rambling.

Later.

[dezhen2001]

That last part of your post was great Mat! :) Explains things about KFO perfectly imo

david

[MA fanatic]

I'm glad someone brought this issue up. Yes, Morihei Ueshiba was a great man. He skills have reached the level most will never reach (assuming the claims made by his own students are true and not exagerated). However, he is dead. He died. And with him, Aikido died (at least the skill level he reached). These guys talk about moving without touching, tell tales of a grandmaster who is long dead, and pray to at some point reach his level. In the mean time, they have 0 striking skills, 0 ability to absorb a puch, almost no skills in fighting anyone who knows how to work punch combinations, no skill in fighting anyone who throws leg kicks or works combos, and no skill in ground grappling. I have yet to see an Aikido stylist utilize a single Aikido technique in any submission fighting, grappling or NHB event. If you ask them, they will tell you that they are either too deadly or too enlightened to fight. Truth is, they wont fight in those events because they can't. Aikido is way too one dementional to be functional.
MA fanatic

[MA fanatic]

I have seen Aikido guys at my buddies Kodokan Judo school. They were flying through the air. They certainly could offer a mouthfull of phylosophy about harmony, force, and even gave everyone a lesson in physics. But they couldn't stop a good throw or armbar. I'm all for discipline, tradition, harmony, finding pease, tranquility etc. etc. But, then don't lable your school as teaching self defense. If I were to send my wife for self defense classes, I'd rather have her learn JKD, Combat Sambo, Russian Systema, even Shooto with some Muay Thai and grappling, then have her talk about harmony but not be able to dodge a decent punch or role out of a pinned position on the ground.
MA fanatic

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by MA fanatic
0 ability to absorb a puch...

True. They can't absorb a puch. Or a pooch. Or a putz.


Originally posted by MA fanatic
I have yet to see an Aikido stylist utilize a single Aikido technique in any submission fighting, grappling or NHB event. If you ask them, they will tell you that they are either too deadly or too enlightened to fight. Truth is, they wont fight in those events because they can't. Aikido is way too one dementional to be functional.
MA fanatic

They are usually not interested in taking part in that kind of competition.

I've used it in the street. I didn't absorb any punches, I got out of the way.

The main problem with using aikido practically is often that it is too multidimensional (see above on difference between training technique and principle) for a simple reflex response at the lower levels.

I've yet to see you post a useful, intelligent or valid response.

Fanatic is a good expression for you - you seem very one-dement-ional.

[MA fanatic]

Before you call someone "one dementional" it is important that you at least know the background of who you are talking to. But, lets not talk about me for now. Let me explain what I mean by one dementional.

In order to defeat a man in weaponless combat, one has to be skilled, and/or have some knowledge of the following: 1)Striking
2) Throwing or disballancing 3) Joint manipulation 4) Strangulation
and choking.
Besides strength, muscle endurance, and cardio conditioning.
One must also be skilled in the following ranges of combat:
1) Long range 2) Short Range 3) Clinching Range 4) Ground grappling range.

Which arts cover all of the above? Combat Sambo, JKD, Systema, and a mixture of arts (bjj and muay thai, shoot boxing, hapkido and bjj, wrestling and boxing, karate and judo, etc. etc.).

Aikido does not include strikes. It has some low percentage wrist throws (nothing that could be pulled off on anyone heavier than you or slightly skilled in grappling). It does not include kicks. It does not include ground grappling. Please, Mat, explain to me why you think Aikido is so multidementional (on a physical level..don't give me some philosophical components...I'm talking self defense)? Please explain how an Aikido stylist would deal with someone who works the jab, does not over commit with blows, using low line kicks, and/or manages to take the Aikidoka to the ground? Please, since in your opinion I have nothing intelligent to post, perhaps you can enlighten us.

I have 17 years experience in the martial arts. I have also done extensive research on the history of martial arts and it's growth in the United States. I also have full contact fighting experience. If I don't know something, I'm the first to admit it. If I have weaknesses, I am the first to see them, and try my best to illiminate them to the best of my ability. But, I do know when a high ranking master (in this case a 6th dan) is teaching his students joint locks which will get them taken to the ground by a highschool wrestler. I do see a problem when I see a 3rd degree teach his students methods of utilizing a wrist locks to counter punches. Anyone who had anywhere over 3 months of boxing will land a blow. I see a problem when a school advertizes "Aikido is great for women" hoping that by it's emphasis on gentleness, more women will enrol. But, when these woman want to learn techniques to get them out of life threatening situations, they are taught esoteric movements. Theory. And techniques they would never pull off. None are taught any eye gouging, low line kicking, foot stomping, groin pulls, ground escapes and chokes. I see a problem, though this I have only seen once because I only observed one aikido sword defense class, when an Aikido instructor refused to demonstrate his fluid self defense against a boken sword, when a friend of mine with 1 year kendo training asked to attempt at actually hitting a 6th degree aikidoka who a few minutes earlier was throwing all his practice sword armed students. Does aikido have any answers for those who actually work punching combinations and don't overcommit? Does aikido have any answers for ground fighting? Does it have answers for low kicks? I certainly haven't seen any. Can an aikido stylist defeat me in a physical altercation? Sure!! But he wont do it by throwing me across the room with a flick of his hand on my wrist. A

As for my screen name, I took it without serious thought. You attacking my screen name is not only childish but idiotic. Half the people on here have screen names which are rediculous at best. I'm a fanatic when it comes to training. I'm a fanatic when it comes to learning. I'm a fanatic when it comes to researching history of martial science. That is why I took the name.
MA fanatic

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by MA fanatic
Before you call someone "one dementional" it is important that you at least know the background of who you are talking to. But, lets not talk about me for now. Let me explain what I mean by one dementional.

Checked your profile.

Please do continue.



In order to defeat a man in weaponless combat, one has to be skilled, and/or have some knowledge of the following: 1)Striking
2) Throwing or disballancing 3) Joint manipulation 4) Strangulation
and choking.
Besides strength, muscle endurance, and cardio conditioning.
One must also be skilled in the following ranges of combat:
1) Long range 2) Short Range 3) Clinching Range 4) Ground grappling range.

Who gave you this mantra? Ground grappling can be thought of as a range, or it could more realistically fit into a group of skill-sets like your top list.

And what kind of weaponless combat are you prattling on about? NHB type events? Or self defence in bars and streets? Cos if it's the latter then skill in more than one of the above is rarely a prerequisite.


Which arts cover all of the above? Combat Sambo, JKD, Systema, and a mixture of arts (bjj and muay thai, shoot boxing, hapkido and bjj, wrestling and boxing, karate and judo, etc. etc.).

In my experience of JKD, most JKD does not cover much more than the most basic 1.2 or 2.4, and maybe one 1.3 technique. The word is most. You might say that I don't have enough experience of JKD, and try to tell me that the word should be some. OK, fair enough, I'll give you the benefit of your heaps of experience.


Aikido does not include strikes. It has some low percentage wrist throws (nothing that could be pulled off on anyone heavier than you or slightly skilled in grappling). It does not include kicks. It does not include ground grappling. Please, Mat, explain to me why you think Aikido is so multidementional (on a physical level..don't give me some philosophical components...I'm talking self defense)? Please explain how an Aikido stylist would deal with someone who works the jab, does not over commit with blows, using low line kicks, and/or manages to take the Aikidoka to the ground? Please, since in your opinion I have nothing intelligent to post, perhaps you can enlighten us.

Briefly, I think you forgot the word.

Besides that:

I have been taught striking techniques, and combinations thereof in aikido classes.

The wrist techniques are not throws. They are locks... though in rare cases they can be used as manipulations which could be described as throws or takedowns. These are as low percentage as armbars in the NHB style fights you champion as reality. Ie, you need to be very well practised and the conditions need to be right (sometimes of course, you can set the conditions up yourself). The more you train, the higher the percentage.

I have been taught kicking techniques and responses to the same in aikido classes.

I have been taught newaza in aikido classes, though admittedly, not as much as jujutsu.

The remains of your paragraph are technique questions: perhaps you could tell us how whatever style it is that you do would deal with these things and the exact percentages of success in each and every case. Now that's just silly, so I'm going to retreat behind: it depends on the situation. Not good enough for you? Diddums (and yep that's childish :D so sue me!). But I would say, if you really have all that much real experience you wouldn't be asking such an impossible to answer ******* question in the first place.

OK, OK, I'll do my best... the answers to the jab, low-line kick and no over-commitment could all be, step off line, move in with a deflection and/or strike or two, then GWLB-it (Grab-it, Wrench-it, Lock-it, Break-it). Admittedly sometimes the L component isn't necessary, and usually the B component won't work, unless you've got his fingers...

But, presses the redoutable MAFan, no aikido practises GWLB! Well, I could explain it in aikido terms to you, but you would not understand, and would tell me it was philosophy.

Oh, if it goes to the ground: er, newaza. Providing in this 'real' martial arts weaponless combat situation, I'm not being attacked by the scores of unruly highly-skilled BJJers roaming the streets at night looking for the poor defenceless aikidoka to beat-down :rolleyes:, I should have a pretty good chance!



I have 17 years experience in the martial arts. I have also done extensive research on the history of martial arts and it's growth in the United States. I also have full contact fighting experience.

Doesn't mean it's useful experience, but your profile is blank my friend... I have 12 years, and again, I will admit some of it was wasted. As for your research, by what you have said, I don't think you've researched enough: my research appears to have been deeper, and I'm still not making blanket statements about arts which I've never practised.


If I don't know something, I'm the first to admit it. If I have weaknesses, I am the first to see them, and try my best to illiminate them to the best of my ability...Does aikido have any answers for those who actually work punching combinations and don't overcommit? Does aikido have any answers for ground fighting? Does it have answers for low kicks? I certainly haven't seen any. Can an aikido stylist defeat me in a physical altercation? Sure!! But he wont do it by throwing me across the room with a flick of his hand on my wrist.

Now we're getting to it. At last.

And you know what: I have seen most of these things and I agree!

Though I will say, in this case, I saw your weaknesses and gaps in your knowledge before you this time...:p

And some of this again, is down to you not understanding what you've seen, though some of that may be because the teacher was crap.

And again, some of the things you say are ridiculous. A selection:

A boxer with over three months experience may land a punch on most people. Will it KO them, or stop them from taking the boxer down? Probably not.

The emphasis for women is because, like many other martial arts, you don't need much physical strength alone to defeat larger attackers.

And please! A movement cannot in itself be esoteric!

I see many problems with the way aiki is taught (not to mention JKD, JJ, wingchun and a few others), and I see halfwits who think they will become invincible after a couple of months of barely breaking into a sweat. I also see an art, the principles and techniques of which can be combined into a very effective martial art, useful for self defence situations, even if not NHB; proven I might add over nearly 10 centuries. Don't let your reams of research kid you into thinking it was invented by Ueshiba.


As for my screen name, I took it without serious thought. You attacking my screen name is not only childish but idiotic. Half the people on here have screen names which are rediculous at best. I'm a fanatic when it comes to training. I'm a fanatic when it comes to learning. I'm a fanatic when it comes to researching history of martial science. That is why I took the name.
MA fanatic

Don't sweat it kid, that was a joke.

I didn't have to seriously think about a screen name to hide behind either: it was given to me.

Mat Hill,

Martial Arts Fanatic.

And I apologise: previously I was a bit harsh, I have agreed with a couple of your posts, but the taking a screen name without a serious thought seems to be symptomatic of most of them. And really, I don't care who you are: if we ever did meet, I would probably enjoy exchanging knowledge and technique with you, but as this is unlikely try not to write crap.

[MA fanatic]

You asked about the answers to situations within the arts I studied. Here is the answer. They didn't have an answer. Therefore, I went looking for them. BTW, I don't want to be erroneously understood, though I train in BJJ, I believe that bjj has many holes. It works in MMA events because bjj guys train like they fight and fight like they train. So, when they step into the ring, it's pretty much like an average class time (though of course in the ring guy tend to strike harder and are more determined to hurt you). If your aikido school takes on a more realistic approach to fighting, good. Most don't. I think most aikido instructors have forgoten that they are teaching a combat art (at least from the several schools I have seen). It is important to mention that Ground Fighting is not an attribute. It is a complex system of position work, transitions, submissions, contortions, escapes, pins, endless conditioning, choking techniques, etc. etc. There are arts which have a sole focus on working the ground. Grappling is an category of martial arts (Like Internal Arts, or External Arts, or Striking Arts, etc. etc.). One cannot fight in general if he/she in many years of practice have only addressed one element of combat.
MA fanatic

[Mr Punch]

Cheers, MAFan, now you've clarified where you were coming from.

I agree a lot of aikido is badly-taught, as is a lot of kungfu, taichi, karate, jujutsu etc. Though again I would stress that most people who haven't taken aiki for some time would probably not know the difference between good aiki and bad aiki.

And I agree ground-fighting is not an attribute: I was taking exception with your label of it as a range, and was suggesting it was a skill-set.

[greendragon]

MAfanatic, Aikido is about blending with the attack and moving your opponent off center, at that point it's a multiple choice of how you want to strike, throw or break them. IMO you don't know WTF you're talking about.