Att: Grapplers! Advice needed.

[Nevermind]

Actually, anyone's advice would be appreciated. This is my first thread so bear with me if I ramble. I have been studying Hung Gar Kung Fu for about 5 months now. For the last 3 yrs I had been training exclusively in ITF TKD. I did about 2 yrs on and off of Shaolin Kung Fu about 10 yrs ago but did not train seriously. As you can probably guess, I have no experience with groundfighting. However, I do feel that I need to incorporate it in to what I am currently learning. I am fortunate enough to have a good friend who is highly experienced in both Muay Thai and submission wrestling. He has agreed to work with me on some groundfighting. Now, I am really concerned with two aspects of groundfighting: 1) Defending against a takedown. 2) If I am taken down, how do I get back up? Since I love Kung Fu and strongly believe in its effectiveness, I have no desire to abandon it. However, I do believe that all styles have weaknesses and I am just looking to fill in the gaps. The advice I need is: What do you guys think of the 2 aspects of groundfighting that I am looking to learn? Is there anything else you would recommend learning other than takedown defenses and submission counters. I really have no desire to stay on the ground and fight. I simply want to be able to counter so that I can get back up if I am ever taken down. I would appreciate any advice that you guys can give. Thanks in advance and I look forward to hearing your opinions. Peace!

[Water Dragon]

Concentrate on 4 things

1. Upa
2. Elbow escapes
3. Sweeps
4. Guard passes

[Nevermind]

Waterdragon, thanks for the response. However, I am not familiar with the term upa (?) Could you explain a little further?

[LEGEND]

Your friend should teach you how to SPRAWL, Crossface( a counter to single leg takedown ), ****( just learned it recently )...but to be honest descent SPRAWLING is all you need! If u are taken down and the guy is on top...then learning how to SWEEP and a STANDING PASS is great! Many UFC and PRIDE competitors cannot be taken down by the basic run and tackle anymore due to SPRAWLING. SAN SHOU fighters are expert at countering throws and takedowns also. U shouldn't have a problem...2 classes on SPRAWLING and u'll be ok.

[DragonzRage]

Hi. I respect your open-minededness! You should definitely work with your friend. For takedown defense have him show you the sprawl and do some live drills such as takedown vs punching sparring. You mentioned his submission wrestling background so I assume he has knowledge of the wrestling clinch. You should work on clinch teachniques such as pummeling so that you won't be clueless in the clinch. Work some Muay Thai plum techniques as well. For ground defense, a good place to start is to drill guard passing and escaping the mount and side mount with your friend. But you really have to know the ground game well if you expect to be able to defend it well. If I were you I'd seriously consider enrolling in a grappling class or at least getting to together with a good group of guys who train regularly and are willing to show you the basics.

By the way, I do Muay Thai and grappling. But I studied Hung Ga for five years. Just thought I'd mention it! Good luck

[SevenStar]

shrimping, but that pretty much ties in with elbow escapes. you also want to learn to be mobile on the mat - when you are new to grappling, you see that maneuvering on the ground (pivoting and such) is not as easy as you may think.

[chingei]

Originally posted by LEGEND
Your friend should teach you how to SPRAWL, but to be honest descent SPRAWLING is all you need! ! Many UFC and PRIDE competitors cannot be taken down by the basic run and tackle anymore due to SPRAWLING.


AAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

the fairy tale continues.

[Gabriel]

I always like to whip my eggs for a solid minute. Maybe even two. Make sure to pour the egg out of the container with a similar consistency throughout, so as your mixture will not be "clumpy". Then I can safely make the best sunny side up eggs that I can make. This is only my method. IMHO the eggs go well with SMACK ramen noodles, especially the spicy flavor. Make sure to use two flavor packs, as this makes it really scrumptious. Generally, I microwave on high for 3 minutes. If I really want to spice up my meal, Ill boil the water. Now, there are two schools of thought as far as how to prepare the noodles themselves: There are those that like to not break up the noodles at all. Then, there are those that like to break up the noodles into managable bites. IMHO, the managable bites method is preferrable, less messy. Serve with two vanilla flavored cokes!

Gabriel

[Gabriel]

Gasp, this isn't the cooking forum!

:o

[Merryprankster]

LOL at Gabriel LITERALLY responding to "any advice you can give would be appreciated!!!"


chingei--before you blow a fuse, (and I agree that the sprawl isn't a magical answer--all sorts of hip shifting needed to make it REALLY work) how about this---

If you had a guy who really didn't want to concentrate on grappling, but didn't want to be ignorant either, what basics would you teach him?

[SevenStar]

It's not too far fetched, actually. he mentioned ufc and pride. as you may have noticed, the most common takedowns in these are the single and double leg, which can be handled nicely by sprawling. Of course, it's not the only thing you need, but you definitely need it in your arsenal.

[KnightSabre]

You have to remmeber that to successfully stop a take down,your takedown defence has to be as good or better than his takedown skill.
Even now in both UFC and Pride with almost all the fighters having take down and takedown defence skills,most of the fights still go to the ground.
It' s almost always harder to stop the take down than to get the take down.

[Unstoppable]

These ideas aaaare outdated and somewhat stupid. To stop a takedown you must rely on your own specialties not try to use a method of another system that i have been shown inneffective countless times.

A good method which has been tought (to me) is practice striking your friend as he runs toward you. you must try to tap him in the face as he is about where you can first hit him, which means starting your strike before he is IN RANMGE!!! if you practice this for two hours per day seven days per week, eventually you will be able to find that you can hit him EVERY TIME!!!! Now if you are tried to gewt take down you will find that the SAME STGRIKE HITS THE WRESTLER. ITS THAT SIMPLE. (I have tried it)

Once you can hit the wrestler, the wrestler cannot get to you because he is AT THE END OF YOUR ARM (FOOT WHATEVER) AND NOT GRAPPLIONG YOU!!! THIS IS very important.

ANU QUESTIONS?

[KnightSabre]

Unstoppable,

what if he shoots after a jab cross combo,and you're busy blocking,how do you hit him then?

[Merryprankster]

Unless you knock out the shooter, OR completely interrupt their forward progress so they cannot get hold of something, you'll wind up on your back, under their terms, more often than not.

I'm playing the odds. My personal experiences, being on the shooting end, have been profoundly different then yours.

Don't get me wrong--I've been hit plenty, and with bad intentions (one of the very nice things about this game--your training partners will knock you out when you go full speed, if they can). Just not stopped. There's a BIG difference in the end result there.

[SevenStar]

being that you train in an "unstoppable" style, you really can't believe what you posted. a simple strike just won't be enough, unless the conditions MP stated are met - and that's not something that I would bank on happeneng 100% of the time.

[Merryprankster]

OMG!

Click on the link he has to NAMAT, and poke around. Claims Yip Man lineage---Oh, it's just too funny, and I'm not even KF...

[Merryprankster]

NAMAT was created by Sifu Thom Nelson after years of attempts to perfect the ultimate fighting temple. Beginning his fighting career in 1973 at the age of three, Sifu Nelson watched Kung Fu on television. Inspiration struck! He began training with Sifu Lee Richard in Wing Chun Gong Fu and before he was the age of 10 he had achieved disciple status. At the age of fifteen, Sifu Nelson realized that there was more to the martial tapestry than Wing Chun Kung Fu and began training in Judo with Judo Champ. Many other trainings follow: in 1985, the year of "Back to the FUture", Sifu Nelson was taking his own journey (not to the future) to Thailand. There he trained at the prestigious lumpyknee muay thai camp for seven months. At the end of his time there, he defeated all fellow students and instructors one after another in his blackbelt test, the quickest it had ever been done, and was thus awarded the World Muay Thai Heavyweight Championship despite weighing only 60kg!! In 1989 a pilgrimage to Japan was in the books for Nelson. He went to Japan. There he learned many martial arts of Karate (Shotokan, Kyokushin, Kando, Kenpo) and ninjas (ninjutsu, ninjitsu) and some brief visits with a mighty sumo.

Ahem---black belt in Muay Thai from a THAI camp? World Muay Thai Heavyweight Championship? In a place where the two stadium champs are the most highly regarded. Lumpini and the other one--I don't remember the name... starts with an R.

Does anybody besides me notice a strange phonetic *******ization between Lumpini and Lumpyknee? God this is bad.

Jesus! What a LIAR!

[dezhen2001]

i had a look when he made fun of the way wc kicks ;)
hence why it's 'here we go again' :rolleyes:

lol

david

edit: also if he only weighs 60kg would like to see him do the Sumo :D

[Merryprankster]

LOL!!!


FAMOUS PEOPLE. Many celebrities are graduated from NAMAT. Sarah Michelle Gellar ("Buffy" - famous vampire slayer). Chuck Norris as well as Sammo Hung and Jackie Chan. The Rock and Stone Cold Steve Austin are both accredited teachrs of NAMAT American Temple Boxing.

LOL!!!!

:D

[dezhen2001]

that site cheered me up! :)

david

[SevenStar]

ROFL, The Rock and Stone Cold are some bad arses - maybe the school really is unstoppable!!:D :D

[dezhen2001]

lol! Very good at the secret 'steel chair' technique and 'flying elbow' :D Did you guys see the secret techniques? :D

Man, that's VERY worrying... :(

david

[Merryprankster]

Yeah, maybe if you're Stone Cold's WIFE....

Unstoppable, I dub thee

****TARD OF KFO

Here's a bright shiny quarter, some underroos and a chocy bar. You enjoy...


*blantant rip-off disclaimer*--please see the Otherground for the originals.

[Water Dragon]

Technique: Spider Chi Grip
Description: The Spider Chi Grip places the victim in a web of chi which prevents them from escaping and drain's their energy, rendering them helpless. Thom Nelson developed this technique himself from observing the patterns of the spider as it spins it's deadly web, this technique may have inspired the movies "Crouchg Tiger Hidden Dragon" and "The Matrix".
Requirement: 19-24 years of training.

[SevenStar]

hmmm....I always wondered who taught the Rock the People's Elbow technique - the flying elbow must be the most electrifying move in CMA!!!

[dezhen2001]

Well Sevenstar, now ya know ;)
The 'Peoples' champion indeed :D

david

[Unstoppable]

Originally posted by KnightSabre
Unstoppable,

what if he shoots after a jab cross combo,and you're busy blocking,how do you hit him then?

since this is an honest question of technique i will respond to this here (see namat thread for justification)

by turning the block into a strike of course! this is a very important techniqe in my MA. in fact the only way to avoid this is to shhoot in while simultaneously punching kicking etc a method which i believe is exclusive to my MA. this way there is no time to switch block to strike but different counters may arise (secret ;) )

[apoweyn]

Unstoppable,

Trust me, nothing is exclusive to your martial art.


Originally posted by Unstoppable
These ideas aaaare outdated and somewhat stupid. To stop a takedown you must rely on your own specialties not try to use a method of another system that i have been shown inneffective countless times.

And now you can't understand why people are being unfriendly toward you. Not a real head scratcher, that one. You get what you give.


A good method which has been tought (to me) is practice striking your friend as he runs toward you. you must try to tap him in the face as he is about where you can first hit him, which means starting your strike before he is IN RANMGE!!! if you practice this for two hours per day seven days per week, eventually you will be able to find that you can hit him EVERY TIME!!!! Now if you are tried to gewt take down you will find that the SAME STGRIKE HITS THE WRESTLER. ITS THAT SIMPLE. (I have tried it)

Once you can hit the wrestler, the wrestler cannot get to you because he is AT THE END OF YOUR ARM (FOOT WHATEVER) AND NOT GRAPPLIONG YOU!!! THIS IS very important.

I don't know what kind of strike you're suggesting, but how do you propose that he'll remain AT THE END OF YOUR ARM? Don't you think he'll go around it given half a chance?


ANU QUESTIONS?

Yes. You'll find them in your NAMAT thread.


Stuart B.

[LEGEND]

Chingel...go play in the street little boy.
LOL...u haven't done much for this forum other than make 1 or 2 sentences remark. Stop being a biatch and making cheesy one liners and bring up a topic or a descent rebuttal for discussion...can't do it??? Go to skool then.

[Water Dragon]

There is nothing wrong with cheesy one liners :mad:

[chingei]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
chingei--before you blow a fuse, (and I agree that the sprawl isn't a magical answer--all sorts of hip shifting needed to make it REALLY work) how about this---

If you had a guy who really didn't want to concentrate on grappling, but didn't want to be ignorant either, what basics would you teach him?

too late. brain juice all over the walls.

anyway, no great loss.

If the guy didn't really want to concenrtate on grappling, he's gonna get tuned up sooner or later but...

timing and distance. an awareness of range and how to move off at angles like a boxer. an effective jab, and how to move off of it. If he doesn't want to bother to learn, he'd best do all he can to keep out of the kitchen. Anybody who chases for long enough is bound to make a mistake, and anybody can be knocked out given the right circumstances.

which, upon further review, means I wouldn't teach him any grappling. a little knowledge can be...
frankly, I wouldn't bet much on this theoretical person if he were so determined not to learn what he needs.

[chingei]

Originally posted by Unstoppable
Once you can hit the wrestler, the wrestler cannot get to you because he is AT THE END OF YOUR ARM (FOOT WHATEVER) AND NOT GRAPPLIONG YOU!!! THIS IS very important.

ANU QUESTIONS?


:rolleyes:
:rolleyes:
:rolleyes:

[chingei]

Originally posted by LEGEND
Chingel...go play in the street little boy.
LOL...u haven't done much for this forum other than make 1 or 2 sentences remark. Stop being a biatch and making cheesy one liners and bring up a topic or a descent rebuttal for discussion...can't do it??? Go to skool then.


whoooo! just got back in from the street. That was fun. Unfortunately, I couldn't find any "skools". Odd that. I looked everywhere for a "skool", but there were no "skools" around. I even looked in the yellow pages under "skool", but no luck.

any other advice, unkotare?

[Merryprankster]

Chingei--

Fair enough--I'll buy that. Either learn what you need to learn or don't. But don't blame 'me' for the consequences of your martial skill 'holes,' yeah?

[chingei]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Chingei--

Fair enough--I'll buy that. Either learn what you need to learn or don't. But don't blame 'me' for the consequences of your martial skill 'holes,' yeah?

on the nose.

[chokeyouout]

NAMAT

Holy sheet!Thats some deadly stuff.


It's real funny to hear everyones response to a takedown.

If you can't sprawl or at least go to a clinch you will be put on your back.

If the shoot is done properly, the "shooter" is way to low to be punched let alone ko'ed like some people think.Maybe there's some confusion between a high clinch and a proper double low single or ankle pick.

Here's a sprawl in all its glory.

http://a1140000.futurism.ws/susumu/etc/adcc000303/real-ad20su01.jpg

[omegapoint]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
LOL at Gabriel LITERALLY responding to "any advice you can give would be appreciated!!!"

If you had a guy who really didn't want to concentrate on grappling, but didn't want to be ignorant either, what basics would you teach him?

1) The guillotine choke standing then into guard
2) Underarm/Overarm bear hug escape
3) Side mount control
4) Getting the mount
5) Americana lock from the mount
6) Arm-control hip throw
7) Scissor sweep from the guard
8) Head lock escape to arm bar
9) Knee on stomach mount and pivot
10) Headlock on the ground escape using frame then leg scissors choke
11) Head control sprawl (see Seizan kata) f/u knee to head
12) Upa (although you should never allow your opponent to mount)

That's my 2 centavos. I know you didn't ask for it from me, but I gave it to you!
Peace!!!

[Nevermind]

Hey, sorry about the delay in getting back with you guys. I only post from my desk at work and I actually took a day off and couldn't get back with you until now. Nonetheless, pretty good responses. Its not that I don't want to learn grappling. I just really don't have the time to devote to two arts. I pretty much wanted to learn to defend against being taken down. Since I know that no defense is 100%, I felt I should know what I have to do in order to get back up if I am taken down. Now, remember, I am not thinking competition. I am thinking about being attacked on the street. Frankly, I don't feel that the ground is a good place to spend a lot of time on the street. Just a personal opinion. I would much rather be on my feet. I will definitely keep these suggestions in mind when I workout with my friend. Thanks again!

[Nevermind]

By the way, Merryprankster, you hit it right on the head. I don't have the time to devote to becoming an "expert" on grappling. By the same token, however, I don't want to be unfamiliar with it either. Just trying to level the playing field as much as possible, you know? Peace!