Wushu and longfist

[SevenStar]

it goes without saying that alot of the longfist that is available now has been "wushu-ized" Does this bother any of you in any way?

[MonkeySlap Too]

Yes.

[SevenStar]

how and why?

[MonkeySlap Too]

Modern Wushu is not as useless as some make it out to be.

However, it does sacrifice a great deal of training methods with variations designed to make taolu impressive for audiences. The body mechanics of MW chang chuan for instance, are not very good body mechanics for fighting. (i.e. locking out elbows, poor alignments, body structure unconnected) Sure, they are in great shape and pretty impressive to the untrained. But put them in the ring with a Thai Boxer and see what happens.

Modern wushu these days is often broken down into three categories: San Shou, application, and Taolu. The application group being the smallest, and the group that most sticks to traditional training methods.

For me it is personal preference. I beleive wushu is for fighting and 'performance wushu' is not for fighting. You can spend your time learning butterfly kicks or how to kick so it's impressive for the crowd or you can learn to fight.

If your Taolu does not translate into fighting skills you either do not understand it, or it's NOT a martial art.

I could fill a book with what I don't like about modern wushu.

However, there are traditional stylists from the mainland who also learned modern wushu that are very good. Li Tai Liang comes to mind. So dispite my disdain of it, if you are a top flight proffesional athlete you can do both, I guess.

However, for me, modern wushu just has a bad 'taste'.

[SevenStar]

ttt

[scotty1]

I am not really qualified to comment.

But I will say that anything that causes the applications group Mr Monkeyslap referred to to get smaller does concern me, as finding a good teacher is hard enough as it is.

And if it is Taolu (the flashy non-combat Wushu?) that is causing this then I am bothered.

[dezhen2001]

I'm not really qualified to comment either... i thought Taolu is just a name generally meaning 'forms'? :)

If your Taolu does not translate into fighting skills you either do not understand it, or it's NOT a martial art.

I liked that sentence though. Just because you don't like fighting or don't want to fight doesn't man that you don't understand the fighting skill. But if the forms don't contain fighting principles or whatever then that is bad :(

Still though, i'm always impressed by those guys - they train hard, and are very good! They deserve credit where credit is due i reckon. But if they pass it off as fighting or whatever (some of the 'application' demos leave something to be desired), then that's just wrong...

just my thoughts from a 'viewers' point of view :)

david

[GLW]

Clarification - Taolu does NOT have anything to do with Contemporary or Classical Wushu. It is essentially the Chinese word for what people use the japanese word for...Kata - form, routines, sequences.

One can Biao Yun (Demonstrate - excuse the spelling it may not be correct pinyin) Taolu or San da (Demo form or fighting).

As for what is done in Contemporary vs. Classical...in actuality, the things that you are concerned about are BAD Contemporary as well. The rules for Contemporary specify that those things are to be deducted for. Competitors do them because they are easier or they do NOT get the required deduction.

Sort of like if everyone keeps saying a thing, pretty soon everyone thinks that thing is true....regardless of what is really true.

The other issue is that most of the northern style a lot of folks have touched came via Hong Kong. While they do northern there...southern is king...and many of the Hong Kong trained northern folks do northern with the flavorings of southern fist. Then these same folks view someone doing it traditionally as wrong. Seen it in one event where a Hong Kong trained judge was running down one competitor for his Ba Gua Staff...100% traditional...because it was not the way he did it...but his was actually more like a southern staff form in flavor - so that judge was wrong....but he was still a scoring judge and got to have his say and his influence on the other judges....and he no longer is qualified to judge in northern,,:)

[MonkeySlap Too]

GLW - thanks for clarifying to the masses. I meant those athletes who focus on Taolu as oppossed to San Da.

What you said about North / South is probably right - but most of the Northern players I have been exposed to are people who fled the communists and were never exposed to modern wushu. Thier Long Fist has a very different flavor than PRC 'contemporary' wushu. Heck PRC Baji does not even use the 'rake' fist the style was originaly named for. You can't take away that they are great athletes, and there are plenty of 'mixed' athletes that play both performance art and martial art. But, I do not find modern wushu to as effective in its training methodology for fighting, as it is not trained for fighting. It's a seperate branch of the river, going it's own way.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Oh, and they were Northerners, not southerners. No Southern influence.

[GLW]

I have seen the type of PRC folks you are talking about...all new school folks.

I learn from one of the founding people for the modernization...but their intent was NOT to get away from the applicaitons. In fact...their guinding principle is Lien Yong Kan...good for use, good for health, good for art....and their roots are traditional Zha Quan. But their flavor for things like the changquan compulsory is totally traditional.... One of the reasons I learn from them.

However, if you get in a private conversation, they will express concern over the way the PRC has been going for the last 10 years. They are losing the roots and then adding in a duan system...belts...

The old Changquan, Straightsword, staff, spear, and broadsword COULD be done with a completely martial flavor and there are applications that are 100% traditional.

The new compulsories have taken things like training techniques and balance drills and mixed them in with basics...and it is a mess. The new Changquan routine is one of the worst put together pieces of junk I have seen. It IS difficult...but it is also ugly and virtually devoid of martial ideas. AND...it will be the one displayed to all in the Olympics.

enough rant.....

[CLFNole]

GLW:

There is a Beijing sifu coming to my area and she is going to be teaching an Olympic standard hand form and the Olympic staff form. I am not interested in the hand form but I have always had a great love of the staff.

I am a CLF practioned and was wondering if you know anything about this staff form. Is it a single-head staff done with a southern flare or a double-head staff done with a northern flare.

Any info you can provide would be greatly appreciated.

Peace.

[GLW]

If it is the olympic standard it is probably the Staff compulsory form. It is very active...lots of flowers (the twirl actually translates as wu hua - flowers...) physically demanding...but if it is the new one...it is OK but I like the older form better.

It will be northern since there is a separate NanGun (Souther staff) form. Actually, there is a compulsory for Nanquan, Nangun, and Nandao...(fist, staff, and broadsword).

The other staff form uses the white wax oak staff (many competitors use the pencil thin jobs but china is moving away form that and requiring heavier ones). It focuses on using the head of the staff or one end then the other more than a southern staff like some of the CLF routines.

If you have never been exposed to this type of training, you may find it a stretch. If she comes in and just starts with the routine, then if you do not have the underlying basics, you will be able to do it ...sort of...but not well.

Basics and foundation are everything.

On a good note, there are videos and books on the routine so you can allow yourself the luxury of forgetting a bit and have a reference to look it up later. :)

[gazza99]

I have little or no exp. with Wushu, but from what Ive seen and heard, I associate the term Wushu directly with CRAP martially.
Gary

[CLFNole]

GLW:

I have a lot of experience with both double head staff (using both ends) and single head staff using a single end. However with CLF our double head staff forms are done with a 6' staff more or less (I am 5'7") and I use a 7' to 9' staff for the single head forms.

Also over the years I have learned northern spear and a northern double head spear.

For the Olympic Staff form I mention want size staff is recommended and what is the staff style like. Flowers and bringing it behind the back with the front handed extened out like you see a lot of todays "shaolin" monk forms or held with 2 hands in front of the body.

Thanks again for your help.

[yu shan]

Question folks, in your Respectable Long Fist Systems, are you taught by your teacher the martial theory in your forms? By this I mean, two-person exercises, drills, and eventually the two-person to the form.

[SevenStar]

since we are talkking about the staff, does anyone here know shi yan ming's magic staff form?

[shinji]

Fortunately for me, not all long fist taught in the US is "wushu-ized"

I am learning an islamic long fist style: jiao men chang chuan (sp??). The school is pretty traditional and we are learning various islamic long fist sets such as tan tui, cha quan, pao chuan as well as some mei hua long fist forms (different lstyle of long fist). Our instructor is also teaching a tai zhu chang chuan form for some extra training.

Our school heavily focuses on basics, stepping and usage, including two person training and eventually sparring. We are taught power issuing, stance training, stepping basics, and everything.

Our schools sifu also teaches baji, ba gua and pi gua in addition to long fist.


Our weapons classes are staff, sword, saber and spear. We learn both forms, basics, usage and two person drils for the weapons classes as well. (sometimes a little painful for staff as getting clipped in the hand can be really painful).

While some modern wushu moves are cool and incredibly difficult to perform. I am not much impressed by what I have seen in videos online--as there is absolutely no power being issued by the practitioner. It seems to me that they rush from jump to jump--blowing through all the "techniques". Its all really cool, very difficult (it would be a challenge for me) but it is not martial arts.

In contrast, most of our forms are performed a little more slowly and smoothly. The emphasis is on rooting and engaging the spine in order to issue power. Only when we can begin to do this are we encouraged to "speed things up".

[yu shan]

Sounds good Shinji, I train predominantly Mantis. My teacher has shared with me Long Fist, kind of a supplement, lucky me. I start newbies out with Long Fist training which leads into Mantis later on, seems to work well with the folks with no prior MA knowledge.

[GLW]

Staff length...for traditional Zha Quan...we typically have one that is at least as long as up to the elbow when the arm is extended above the head and no longer than up to the wrist. Longer ones are sometimes seen but those are specialty.

Spear is wrist to end of finger tips...but can be longer...I prefer end of finger tips myself...and wrist for staff....

Modern knocks the length and the thickness down. The staff can be as short as just above head height....and most are ...

As for long fist...it is unfortunate... I have judged where a person came out and did Siu Lu Zha quan. the form was OK..but the ideas were not there. The had no focus, no understanding of what each move did, it was flowery...but the form was traditional. The hard part was convincing the ohter judges that they should deduct for the guy NOT having those things...because they were trying to say that he was doing Modern. It was 100% the traditional routine...just that his teacher didn't know HOW to do correctly.

[RAF]

Shinji:

Are you a student of Ted Mancuso, Linda Derrigo or one of Adam Hsu's students?

If so, your longfist lineage comes from Han Qing Tang, Adam Hsu's initial teacher or Adam Hsu's father.

[count]

If his teacher were Adam or Jason he might have also mentioned Tai Chi or Praying Mantis. I too am curious who is teaching you Shinji. If you could mention your locaton we could probably guess.;)

[Royal Dragon]

What is your lineage?

I do Tai Tzu Chang Chuan as well, and I am looking for as much info and movement as I can on the style from as many lineages as possible.

[Shaolindynasty]

Sounds like his sifu is Adam Hsu or one of his students.

[shinji]

All,

Good guessing! I am indeed training under Adam Hsu's students in the SF bay area.

RAF, thanks for the info on the lineage as i did not know that information.

I really enjoy long fist. It is pretty straight foward and has good basic techniques. It's a nice foundation to work from. Many senior students end up learning an additional style in addition to longfist--like Bagua or Baji or Chen Tai chi
I'd like to learn baji. Unfortunately our instructors are not teaching Baji and Adam Hsu is still in Taiwan. :(

Royal Dragon, as for the tai zhu lineage. I am actually not too sure about that. Adam Hsu only just added this one tai zhu form to the repertoire for his students becuase of the excellent training it provided.

I am learning it now and have not really had the opportunity to question him or my instructors about the origins of this form. However, I definitely have a lot of respect for the system based on it. The movements are slow, like tai chi but it is easily one of the most difficult forms I have ever done and the training (in terms of linking the body and learning how to issue power) is intense. Tai zhu seems like a really cool style. I'd be interested in learning a lot more about it.

[RAF]

Shinji:

I cannot be sure since I have only seen a small bit of the taizuquan but if it came from GM Liu, it came out of his family in the Hebei province.

My own pure speculation is what might have made Yang Lu Chan's Chen version his own was the adding back of some of these elements along with slow training. Our first level of Chen's is played no differently than the Yang style.

Anyway, good luck training and I hope you enjoy it.