Most unhealthy martial art?

[IronFist]

We've all heard that internal MA's are excellent for health promotion. And, I suppose any art that requires you to be active will benefit your health. I've also heard that some "hard" gongs can take time off your life, such as extreme iron body training, etc.

But, are there any arts that don't promote health? I mean, any arts that train the body to have unnatural posture, or unnatural movements, or anything that over time will have a detrimental effect on the body?

I read in a book once that Dragon style practicioners eventually develop rounded forward shoulders. That can't be good. Unfortuantely, I forgot which book I read this in.

Anyway, anyone ever heard of anything like this?

IronFist

[Former castleva]

I´ve heard the same that some styles based on fighting are based on it so much that they develop their skill and do stuff that can harm their health.
I guess this goes for SOME hard qi-gong (at least,part)
Iron sand palm (spelling?) is told to be harmful.

Probably some karate styles (possibly others) with "eternal" tension",brutal body hardening and strange kata´s.
I won´t go further with this to avoid giving wrong ideas.

And probably in general,MA done wrong will possibly do harm in long run.Misunderstanding or arrogance towards proper "rules" of training.

[scotty1]

Interesting queston.

Can't think of any MA off the top of my head but some methods of conditioning in CMA do make me think of long term damage.

[Kristoffer]

Fat Fu

[TjD]

i get hit hard in the head for hours almost every day of the week!

that can't be healthy!


travis

[dezhen2001]

I think that anything done incorrectly can damage you, that's why you need a good teacher ;)

david

[shaolinboxer]

Overall, I think that there are two (if you chose to count them both) that tend to cause the most frequent injury in the USA. One is Tae Kwon Do. I love TKD, and I have a very good friend who is a 2nd Dan, and he is constantly injured. Now I am not saying that if you study TKD you'll get busted up, but the rapid spread of this art by under qualified instructors has busted up a lot of knees, hips, and feet.

The second, if you count it, is Tae Bo. Seriously. When I went to see a couple sugeons about my own knee problems (from studying shaolin wushu) they both mentioned that the who "cardiokick" craze has sent them more business than they care to have.

I think these two win on sheer numbers.

[dezhen2001]

Shaolinboxer: i think that's quite sad that when something that was created to help people become healthy is causing a lot of injuries... :(

david

[shaolinboxer]

Dezhen - It is sad. The problem is that there are not usually different class levels. People join these Cardio classes to lose weight....but they are over weight and out of shape and cardio kickboxing is hard and very stressful on the body. As there is no logical progression, injury occurs.

[dezhen2001]

Yup, there needs to be a definate progresion, hence hwy training in anything is a long term endeavour - no shortcuts... is it because of how the classes are taught? how the instructors are qualified or regulated? I do hope they can sort it out, as things like that are becoming very popular, so even more people will be injured.

How is your aikido going btw? Well i hope... :)

david

[Chinwoo-er]

Definately.
Most of the Mauy Thai people I know couldn't fight MAist their own age due to extensive internal injuries gathered through the training and sparring

[Black Jack]

Sorry but I don't but into that muay thai is a unhealthy martial art martial rumor, I have found that people use that as a hidden zing to on western boxing and muay thai in a weird attempt to take away from its effectivness in combat, are you talking about pro thai fighters in thaliand or are you talking about american thai fighters?

What associations did they fight in? What were there records? What training made them so messed up? What internal injuries?

[Chinwoo-er]

They never really told me what specific injuries they have. Most of them just say that they are injured and changes the subject. I assume it is a private thing. To what I have get out of them, their upper body (chest area ) as well as head injuries seems to be the most severe. Some even said they suffer from on-again-off-again headaches.
They of Asian areas. And a few of the people know have indeed been to Thailand for pro competition.

[guohuen]

I don't know about most unhealthy, but I've met a few fellow eskrima practitioners with cauliflower ears. Usually the left. Bastons hurt!

[dezhen2001]

reminds me of the time i was learnig nunchuka in karate, and i swung them under one arm, missed catching them and hit myself square on the back of the head :D they were solid oak :(

:D
david

[guohuen]

Ouch! Did something like that when I was studying Shotokan. Hit myself in the right thighbone with octagonal mohogany chucks. Haven't touched them since.:eek:

[Lice]

Juko-kai... :D

[old jong]

Take any martial art and a bad teacher and you get a very unhealthy thing!...But I think that any thing that preaches that heavy contact to the head will make you a tougher and better fighter has a serious risk potential to your health.It is a question of times before you start to pay the price.

[Former castleva]

Yeah.
Good thoughts,you mentioned arts that I could not think of.
boxing,muay thai (boxing) I´ve also heard that TKD practice is likely to bust your knees.
But can be also a matter of how-to as previously said.

[Fu-Pow]

Lol to Lice!!! Juko Kai rocks the house.


Overall, I think that there are two (if you chose to count them both) that tend to cause the most frequent injury in the USA. One is Tae Kwon Do. I love TKD, and I have a very good friend who is a 2nd Dan, and he is constantly injured.

I have some anecdotal evidence to back this up. My mom and sister started taking Tae Kwond Do with in a week my mom had blown out her MCL (Medial Crucial Ligament) in her knee. Apparently they were doing some weird partner stretching and doing it too quickly. On a positive note my Mom now studies Chen Taiji and loves it.

Anyways, I think any martial arts where the instructor is not qualified. Or if the instructor does not have an intimate knowledge of human anatomy and sports physiology can be potentially dangerous. Also, if the instructor pushes the students too quickly.

There are a lot of antiquated practices floating around that are simply not helpful and potentially dangerous. One that comes quickly to mind is bouncing in your stretches. While its probably OK to gently bounce when doing light stretching (it warms the muscles) I've seen people agressively bouncing which actually makes you tighter and increases your risk of injury.

These practices persist because it is hard to convince a MA teacher that a practice is harmful when they learned it from their MA teacher, especially if their teacher is very good. ( For example, bouncing might not have irreparably harmed the teacher's kung fu but might have increased their rate of injury.) So the practice gets passed down the line.

[chingei]

Wrestling and/or Boxing

[IronFist]

Good discussion guys. Any martial art can be harmful if not taught properly, however I was talking more about martial arts that even when performed properly can harm ones health/distort posture/damage the body/etc.

Kind of like Juko Kai :) Good call, Lice!

IronFist

[FatherDog]

Honestly, with the exceptions of such things as Juko Kai, I can't think of any art where performing it correctly will increase your risk of injury.

Now, arts like Boxing, Muay Thai, kickboxing, etc, probably produce a higher rate of injury among their practitioners because they have a well-established competition circuit. If you fight full-contact, you'll get injured, and your body will take a lot of punishment. That's just how it is.

I'd be willing to bet that if you took a group of Thai Boxers that regularly compete, Western Boxers that regularly compete, Kickboxers who regularly compete, and Kung Fu/other CMA stylists who regularly compete in San Shou, the rate of injury would be fairly comparable.

With that said... I'd say the art where practitioners are /most/ likely to develop health problems later in life is sumo. While there are a number of sumo weight classes, they're encouraged to become as weighty as possible and with as low a center of gravity as possible, to the extent of engaging in special high fat diets. That kind of weight takes a heavy toll on your heart and knees.

[Shaolindynasty]

Chung Mo Do-

i've met a few people from this school and they all have knee problems. Most likely from CMD's bad yoga crap

[chingei]

Originally posted by FatherDog

With that said... I'd say the art where practitioners are /most/ likely to develop health problems later in life is sumo. While there are a number of sumo weight classes, .


heh?:confused:

[fa_jing]

I hurt my knee pretty bad in TKD - due to hyperextension. IMO, they make too much emphasis on "snap" in your uniform, as a determination of the power of the technique. This IMO encourages hyperextension of the limbs.

-FJ

[IronKim]

He..." shaolin dynisty"

Why youi want to pick on CMQ.
Whats your name?????? Whos your teacher??????

I call your Sifu to a "Kung Sool Bope" for Grandmaster John C. Kim.

Dont be against CMQ until you trie it. Open your mind....

[ewallace]

Go jump off a building.......a ten story building.....and do a sidekick while in mid air.

[jun_erh]

SUMO

[neito]

tkd can be kinda rough on the knees, wrestling produces cosmetic damage like cauliflower ear. boxing gives yiou brain damage.

[ged]

isnt there some MA that generates power from contraction of the spine? that never sounded healthy to me.

also, generating power by sharp twisting of the body, using (obliques? im never too sure about that) can screw up your organs if you dont breathe properly.

you know in the karate kid when he breaks those blocks of ice by chopping sideways... the forearm isnt meant to bend that way. or so i've been told :) feel free to argue.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by ged
you know in the karate kid when he breaks those blocks of ice by chopping sideways... the forearm isnt meant to bend that way. or so i've been told :) feel free to argue.

I haven't seen that movie in years, but isn't his forearm in the same position as a tan sao? It didn't look that unnatural to me.

But like I said, I totally forgot a lot of that movie cuz I haven't seen it in a long time, so I might be thinking of something else.

IronFist

[Jimbo]

I think it depends more on how the art is taught, and to whom it's taught. There are *some* western boxers, for example, who stay healthy into old age. Jack Dempsey knocked out two muggers who attacked him in New York when he was in his 70s. On the other hand, I have seen a xingyi master in his 70s who was in very bad health (Parkinson's??) and could barely walk. I suppose the xingyi master's example doesn't really count, because i seriously doubt his problems had anything to do with his martial art, BUT it kind of runs counter to the widely-held belief that "internal" automatically equals superior health in old age over "external." We have to look at individuals.

There is a book called Okinawan Karate by Mark Bishop(?) that says some karate masters of other styles in Okinawa believe that Goju-ryu's training methods can cause health problems and early death. I'm not experienced in Goju-ryu myself so can't comment further on that.

Some people will remain healthy and strong into old age regardless of the art they trained. Sometimes it may be good genetics, or maybe even, in some physically punishing arts, good luck. And some will develop problems no matter what, if they train wrong, or are not suited to the art, or a million other reasons.

Jim

[Martial Joe]

Sumo...those guys eat so much...

[LEGEND]

agreed...lol...it's SUMO.

[rogue]

I had a friend Eric who studied Dim Mak. Well a couple of months ago he was tapping his head and went into a coma. Even have a photo to prove it.

Eric (http://www.badmovieplanet.com/3btheater/b/imagesb/bikinibeach/bikinibeach5.jpg)

[Nichiren]

I must say Thai Boxing due to the full-contact nature! I was constantly injured during thai training. Oterwise my own experience is that wing chun can be really bad for the shoulders. Both of my shoulders are damaged permanently due to chi sao (I have had surgery on my right shoulder).

/Cheers...

[PaulLin]

Well, the more dangous more attractive to the youth, like teenagers. They like to have high-risk level of unhealthy arts. And that is why many business MA did what they did.

The not so popular, or peaceful ones are mostlikely the healthy ones.

I would see the healthy ones would approach all aspects as balance as possible rather than concentreate only on one aspect too far.

[BAI HE]

TKD. I tore my ACL good from TKD.
I know a lot of TKD people who have blown knees.

[Khun Kao Charuad]

I have to completely agree with Sumo being the biggest detriment to a persons health due to how it encourages its serious participants to grossly overeat.

I just have to comment on peoples remarks regarding Muay Thai, as there is actually quite a lot of truth behind the dangers of the sport. I don't recall who mentioned this, but the comments regarding Muay Thai injuries as compared to other competition based martial arts is what I feel is most accurate.

Fact of the matter is that Muay Thai is a full-contact sport. There are going to be injuries. Period. It is not safe. We train to hit and be hit. But I would be willing to bet that Muay Thai is no more dangerous (when properly trained) than any other full-contact sport. Boxing, Judo, Wrestling, BJJ, Sambo, MMA, Rasslin', American Football, Hockey, Rugby... They are all full-contact sports and therefore inherently dangerous.

And, to top things off, the above-mentioned sports cannot be compared because they each affect a persons body in different ways.

Boxing/San Shou/Muay Thai/American Kickboxing all encourage full contact strikes to your body and head. The injuries received are typically lumps, bruises, contusions, etc. But I've broken toes, sprained my ankle, broken my hand, and gotten concussions from participating in these sports.

Judo/BJJ/Sambo/Wrestling places stress on joints mostly, but lets not forget the "slams". Many of you are painfully aware of what occurred recently to Lloyd Irvin. He was accidentally slammed on his head during a Judo match and ruptured a disk in his neck/back. It is questionable if he will ever be able to compete again.

Then lets look at sports like Football, Rugby, Hockey, etc. These sports are also inherently dangerous. As an example, Bill "Superfoot" Wallace's son was critically injured playing football with a neck injury. A Minnesota Viking died last summer. Look at all the ACL/MCL injuries... (I don't know enough about Rugby and Hockey injuries, though I assume they are similar)

Anyway, my point is that any full contact sport, regardless of whether or not it is a fighting sport, is potentially dangerous. Each one has to be judged separately, as the risks are different for each. I believe that a side-by-side comparison of injuries between the various sports will yield pretty comparable numbers.

Khun Kao

[Liokault]

I hear of Goju ryu karate being very bad for your health. A friend tells me they learnt sanchin kate wrong from the origional kung fu.

Also I know lots of boxers who have to sleep on their backs due to lots of bag work making their shoulders hurt in certain positions. I think that the practice of boxing and muay thai is not bad for your health but competeing in it is.

[Rolling Elbow]

Goju

I have also heard that Goju sanchin breathing is bad. In fact, i have been told that a japanese Goju master once admitted that it is bad and that it CAN take years off your life IF it is done by itself without the use of "soft" internal breathing to balance it out. Then again, i have also heard that Mantis has a similar breathing pattern that is equally bad for oneself.....

My teacher is an ex Chito and Goju ryu man. Ask questions, i'll ask him..i've seen him do his sanchin breathing and have learned the first set of it...it sucks, i hate it lol. Then they smack you around while you hold it...great fun.

[Budokan]

Jukokai is pretty unhealthy, unless you like belonging to a cult. But then again it's not a real MA so it shouldn't count...

Tae Bo, now there's an unhealthy MA for you. I mean, after you take all those hormone shots, get de-nutted and pay for the trip to Sweden for the sex-change just so you can perform the art, it can take a toll on your wallet.

Plunger Rape Fu is pretty tough -- only real men need apply.

[Spirit Writer]

Surprised no one mentioned Souther Mantis, with the caved in chest and the holding in of urine in the morning to do qigong.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Spirit Writer
Surprised no one mentioned Souther Mantis, with the caved in chest and the holding in of urine in the morning to do qigong.

Did they do that? Are you sure? Northern Mantis never do any things like that, never heard of.

[PaulLin]

Should we talking about how the MA itself--like training--or how the MA was applied--like tournament--to be the factor of determine healthy or unhealthy?

[IronFist]

Either.

Eww, why do they hold in their morning urine?

IronFist

[Spirit Writer]

They hold it in the belief that they will work it out, or "sweat" it out, doing their qigong. I never studied, but a friend of mine was pretty heavy into it for a few years -- learning as a quasi-disciple. The collaspsed chest really helped in fighting, because it closed everything up, but it puts pressure on the heart.

[scotty1]

I have to pee before I do qigong, otherwise I can't relax.

It's either relax or pee, one or the other with me.

On the whole, without a good teacher, I think MA is inherently unhealthy in an injurious sense.

[greendragon]

no one ever told me to hold my urine in SM, and you don't collapse your chest any more than in Tai Chi C. my only objection to SMantis QiGong is use of dynamic tension as i believe relaxing is a better way for me.

[Spirit Writer]

That is incorrrect!
The person who showed me the S Mantis method studied with a disciple of Milton Chin. He know studies Ba Gua with Master David Chan in NYC. He closes up just as well now, but does not collapse the chest. Both ways do the same thing, but, as often in life, its the little differences that count. From the outside, they look the same. That's why its called internal.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by greendragon
no one ever told me to hold my urine in SM, and you don't collapse your chest any more than in Tai Chi C. my only objection to SMantis QiGong is use of dynamic tension as i believe relaxing is a better way for me.

My Taichi says collapse of chest is overdone. We keep it hollow, empty, and not stood out. Collapse of any body parts in my Taichi is a no no. We insisted on relaxed but not collapsed, so the links not broke. All body parts constantly in changing, as to keep it alive, but also constant, settled.

[tnwingtsun]

Most Hakka systems/Dragon/Bai-Mei/Bak-Mei/SPM/YKM and others
use this,it is not a bad thing,if done right it can generate alot of power.

Go to the Southern forum and ask this question.

[ged]

ironfist:

i've only seen the second one, it's where he walks into that crowded room and some white dude chops up a few blocks of ice, then the karate kid does it. he has his elbow down, and his hand moving from right to left - the elbow is a hingey joint, only meant to operate in 2 directions, unlike say the shoulder. if you try it now, your forearm will wobble a bit from right to left, but not if you grab your upper arm and keep it still (ie the wobbling was coming from the shoulder). of course i could be wrong... kudos to anyone who goes to japan, beats up a few hardcore japanese karate people then gets the japanese chick. all while having an 80s hairstyle.

[ged]

btw, what's a tan sao? i really should familiarise myself with these wing chun terms... i'm guessing that if it's a deflection, maybe it puts less 'jolt' force on the elbow joint, and relies more on the back muscles pulling the whole arm backwards, or maybe the shoulder rotating the arm.