Side kick - where's your weight?

[scotty1]

Hi guys and gal

When you do a sidekick, say into an oncoming opponent, do you push forward (into the opponent) with the kick?

What I mean is, is your bodyweight going in the direction of the side kick? Because when I first learnt the kick I was not taught to put any weight into it, just kind of put it out there, but now I find unless you do you're liable to be pushed backwards as the kick connects and your leg straightens.

What do you think? Common sense I suppose. But here's the thing - you can practice the most technically perfect kick in drills, but until you actually try and kick an oncoming opponent with it you've got no idea how to make it count.

Side kick off lead leg followed by cross upon landing. Nice sports technique. :)

[Unstoppable]

Weight should always, be to the back that way you cannot be pulled forward into A PUNCH. Many styles are incorrect in their use of forward weight this leaves you open to COUNTERS.

FOR AN EXAMPLE

wing chun "practitioners" are quite famous for forward movement as you seem to use in your side kick (wrong)- this i s where you beat them. As they come forward you just start wailing on them. Its so EASY.

[dezhen2001]

wow, good to have such confidence in your abilities :D:rolleyes:
here we go again...

david

[Ish]

i think i might as well quit wing chun then and just practice wailing

[Gabriel]

lesse..what do i do...?

Hmm. Ok not that this will mean much to any of you, but I sort of "project" my weight with a slight hop or slide, then I bend my torso relatively lateral to the ground with my left knee bent and push straight out from a chambered position with my right leg. So, my center ends up being somewhat behind and above my left leg in a right side kick. I do use a straight force kick, as opposed to one of those arc deals

This is my strongest kicking technique..sort of a Bruce kinda kick, cause its less static than Karate which is front stance, step, pivot, kick, recoil, return to stance.

Gabe

[scotty1]

In close, we are taught to kind of bounce our side kick off the target in a saideways stomping motion if you see what I mean.

Rather than straightening your leg and tipping yourself over backwards or unbalancing yourself.

"Weight should always, be to the back that way you cannot be pulled forward into A PUNCH."

So you don't put any weight into your punches? Where does your power come from?

"many styles are incorrect in their use of forward weight this leaves you open to COUNTERS."

But if your weight's not travelling forward surely you're just punching with your arm?

"wing chun "practitioners" are quite famous for forward movement as you seem to use in your side kick (wrong)- this i s where you beat them. As they come forward you just start wailing on them. Its so EASY."

I'm sure the WC people are quite aware that people are trying to hit them as they come forward. They might even have evolved a counter for such a situation. I don't know, you'd have to ask one of them.:rolleyes:


Tell me then, if my opponent is rushing me and I do a straight leg side kick at full extension and he runs onto my kick, if my weight is behind my supporting leg will I not be unbalanced and pushed backwards?

[dezhen2001]

if my opponent is rushing me and I do a straight leg side kick at full extension and he runs onto my kick, if my weight is behind my supporting leg will I not be unbalanced and pushed backwards?

That's what usually happens to me! :D

Just because your weight is travelling forward doesn't mean you can't adapt to what's happening... also it's just plain physics.

:)

david

[scotty1]

I'm glad it happens to someone else.

Something else I've just thought, say you can throw a side kick and put enough weight into it to damage the opponent and not be unbalanced or pushed backwards.

Well, if you come up against someone with a bug weight advantage, even if you do put your weight forwards you're still going to have a greater force pushing you back.

So - side kick, not recommended against larger opponents?

[dezhen2001]

Guess it (like anything else) depends on how and when you use it :)

I have no idea as i'm not even learning WC kicking yet and i su(k anyway :D

david

[HongKongPhooey]

Weight? I'm 10 stone ish, so not much weight to use. I've found using the standing leg to push from and take the power through the hip by tilting, and then extending the kick will knock over or at least hurt alot of people. Hope that makes sense. My weight is centralise over my standing foot when I do this and my body is up ready to take any counter that comes in.

[shaolinboxer]

I love the sidekick, and I've tried lots of different ways of executing it in sparring.

When I kick, I snap my body into a straight line as the kick goes out, concentrating my weight forward from the hip to the foot. This seems to provide the strongest kick, while keeping my leg from being easy to catch and my face from being easy to hit.

Centering you weight if fine for check kicking and in sport, but if you are going to risk a full extension kick, I say give it all you've got.

[dezhen2001]

but surely to put all 10 stone(ish) in to the kick you would have to get your weight moving forward? Otherwise it would be counterproductive? ;)

david

[Wilson]

You definitely want your momentum moving forward! If you've ever tried to kick a pad, bag, or person, you'll know this is true? Sure, if you're just kicking in the air, leaning back is fine. I've done Muay Thai (where we don't mind taking some shots) and people have bounced off to the ground because their weight was back. Practicing MT, I learned follow thru is very important. Watch them kick. If the opponent isn't there, they keep going thru. Now this isn't the best for the street, but the mentality and mechanics are in place for power so that's what I incorporated from it.

Now I study Wing Chun and again, with front or side kicks, we move forward. This doesn't mean leaving your chin out in the open for a punch though! When I kick, there should already be an opening. I don't like having 1 foot off the ground while my opponent is full strength. I want to have affected him already.

As far as the large, charging man scenario. Move out of the way first, hit him as he passes, then kick if you want. Wing Chun says to not take on the mass of the attacker. If you stand in front of him as he charges, you're definitely taking on mass. Move and hit.

[apoweyn]

Scotty,

Wilson made a good point. I personally think that there's a distinction to be made between weight and momentum. Certain types of sidekick will propel your momentum forward (skipping sidekick, for example) but don't require that you lean forward.

As far as weight distribution, personally I put it on the back leg so that if I miss, I don't fall into a counter from the other person. (In that sense, I agree with Unstoppable, despite his decidedly arsehead delivery.)

That said, if you develop a tactic for dealing with it when you miss the target and then 'fall in' to punching range (e.g., covering up or weaving straight into your own punching combination), then it's no harm, no foul I suppose.

My personal thought on getting pushed and unbalanced, particularly by someone heavier than you, relates more to recoil than weight distribution. I've noticed that a lot of people are taught to 'stick' their sidekick. (Perhaps for aesthetics, but I've heard it argued that it's stronger that way; personally, I disagree.) My feeling is that sticking your sidekick (locking it out, even momentarily) allows the opponent to unbalance you. It gives the opponent a solid entity to manipulate, even if that manipulation is as simple as continuing to move forward into the kick. That solid bridge between him and you could allow him to push you off balance (and it needn't even be deliberate on his part).

My advice would be not to stick the sidekick. Recoil it immediately. I think it results in a more jarring impact. But more importantly to this discussion, it doesn't provide anything that can be used against you. Either your foot hammers in to his ribs and then back out or you miss and recoil immediately to retrieve your balance, get your feet back under you, and continue sparring.

Give it a go on the heavy bag or kicking shield. Actually, get someone to hold a kicking shield and walk toward you. Once you get the timing down, you'll be able to stop them in their tracks without sticking it. And even when you get the timing wrong, I think it'll leave you in a more defensible (or offensible, if you prefer) position.

I read a book once that suggested a way to practice the sidekick recoil. I did it, and I think it worked. The book suggested that you practice recoiling from an extended position. In other words, practice just the last half of the kick (fully extended to fully recoiled all the way back to sparring stance). Once you get used to that, try putting the whole kick together.

So that's my advice (for whatever it's worth). Weight distribution's not forward. Emphasize the recoil. 'Piston' your kick rather than 'sticking' it.

I hope that helps.


Stuart B.

[HongKongPhooey]

Rather than use the 10 stone (ish). I'm trying to throw the kick out, and use the power generated from the floor and my hips. (not alway successfully though) Doing it that way gives me more options when I've finished the kick. I'm balanced (hopefuly) and able to move rather than trying to grab my wiehgt back.

[scotty1]

"Actually, get someone to hold a kicking shield and walk toward you"

We did last night and that is the very reason why I started this thread!

I kicked the bag and got tipped backwards if I locked the kick out. I don't think it's a good idea to lock the kick out anyway.

Like you say, its better if you try and stomp it out, like if you were stamping on a rubber pad. Er, see what I mean? Then you get the fast recoil, which I think is important because side kick is quite a commited kick, I think.

I suppose once you've got that sorted then it's personal choice whether to put your weight into it or not, depending on whether you're trying to close for a punching combo, hold off an attacker etc.

[Kaitain(UK)]

just an opinion - but I would only ever throw a sidekick in close at knee line or lower so I drop my weight through my standing leg as the kick extends - it's like a small dip as it extends. I would only ever use it as a destruction.

I think you're pretty ambitious to try and pull a sidekick above that height - they aren't fast, they are telegraphed and they don't have much room for error - if you miss you're ****ed.

If someone swings a chain at you then you have to get out of the range of the arc or come in behind it - if they thrust something straight at you, you can zone into them (sidestep and move forwards).

Save it for the demonstrations....

[guohuen]

Centerline.

[fa_jing]

It entirely depends what you're using it for.
BTW, check out Unmatchable's website?!

-FJ

[apoweyn]

Scotty,

Yeah. That's exactly what I was thinking. The other thing I always noticed about sticking the sidekick is partially due, I expect, to the way I personally throw it.

I turn the hips over a lot, so it's almost like a back kick. Thing is that when I stuck it like that, the resistance occassionally rolled my hip over even further, so I ended up spinning off the kick and giving my opponent my back. The recoil also avoids that problem.


Stuart B.

[apoweyn]

Okay, I just visited Unstoppable's website. And I'm convinced that his screen name should be changed to 'Unreadable' or perhaps 'Laughable.' It'd be a pretty decent parody if they got an editor to go over it.


Stuart B.

[Wilson]

I agree with Kaitain that the side kick should be used low. If fact, I think any kick should be low in a street situation. But that's a whole other thread.

Just looked at Unstoppable's website. Gotta be a joke website. And if its looked at that way, its pretty good :D

[Kaitain(UK)]

one of my favourite MA anecdotes

Student - "Sensei, when will we learn head kicks?"
Sensei - "but this is a headkick"
*Sensei kicks at knee height*
Student - "I don't get it"
Sensei - "put someone's head there and kick it, hey presto! a head kick"

[scotty1]

There are so many hilarious quotes on that site I don't know where to start! Got to be a joke, surely?

I sent them an email:

"Are you serious?"

BWA HA HA HA HA !!

[Kaitain(UK)]

I want to learn the Spider Chi technique

[rogue]

"I think you're pretty ambitious to try and pull a sidekick above that height - they aren't fast, they are telegraphed and they don't have much room for error - if you miss you're ****ed."

That depends on how well you know how to use side kicks. You have to consider things like which kind of side kick (front leg, back leg), from what kind of stance are you executing it from, which chambering method are you using, are you attacking or countering, where is your opponents focus. Also a well placed side kick to the body is one of the best things in the world.

[SifuAbel]

It's more a matter of how close you are to the opponent. You should get used to the length of your leg. If you find that you are being pushed back in your kick then you are too close. A proper side kick should have at the very least 8 inches of clearance for the thrust to the target. You should make contact 2 or 4 inches before full extension. If you make contact BEFORE your thrust, then you end up with a push not a kick.

Rogue has the right idea about use.
Oh and if you lsten carefully to the episode ozzy actually stumbles on that line and says Daftness instead of darkness. But we know what he really meant. ;)

[shaolinboxer]

I'd say that a side kick should travel like a reverse punch (cross)...straight from the hip to the target (like staight from the shoulder to the taget). Right to the opponents gut in most cases.

[apoweyn]

Good point SifuAbel. If you're too close, you jam yourself and then push yourself off of the target.


Stuart B.

[lotusleaf]

When I do my sidekicks, it's either a snapping or thrusting. With thrusting, you have to move forward just like a front thrust kick. With the side-snap, I keep my weight neutral on my standing leg and my body fairly upright w/ minimum lean-back. I just find it's better for me to throw multiple kicks from that position

[fa_jing]

When we practiced side kicking the air sheild the object was to move the other guy back out of his stance. Only my best kicks were able to move my training partner. Some forward momentum is needed for maximum power, with the way I deliver a sidekick. In the most common version, this can be acheived simply by bringing up the rear foot to the front foot.

[SevenStar]

I think you should look at the type of side kick you are throwing. if it's a side snap kick, you are merely snapping the leg out. it's not a power technique, so there is no need to lean forward or backward. Doing so would merely telegraph your technique. If you are doing a thrust kick, you get more power (at leas I do) by leaning back. The power comes from the pivot and the thrust of the leg. for me this is achieved easier by putting the weight back, but you don't want to lean too far back as then you are more offbalance and susceptible to takedowns. Also, your recovery time is slower. If you are doing a stepping sidekick, momentum comes into play, and you really do not have to lean back in oreder to get power into it.

[omegapoint]

Whip your kick towards the target bringing it back as fast as you can. In order to get power, kick through the target bringing your leg back just before you lock your knee out. The supporting leg should never be fully locked either as this will affect balance, making you susceptible to being pushed over if the target moves into you. Strike with the heal, ideally, but the blade of the foot is fine, too. Keep your body straight, don't lean back too much when you kick. This will help counterbalance your weight if he charges into you.

At first learn to chamber your sidekick. If it's a standing side-kick bring your knee and thigh to your hip (90o) with your foot parallel to the ground. Coordinate a slight twisting motion of your lead hip towards your target and rear foot rotation (pivoting on the ball not heal) towards the rear corner (not too much though). This chambering will help you get the kick above your opponents own incoming kicks, and gives you the added benefit of gravity to enhance power. Later on you won't need to perform such a noticeable chamber. Kick at the stomach or solar plexus level, never higher. Be in your guard protecting your head and body. Keep your lead elbow close to your hip in order to protect your floating ribs and lateral abdomen. This is an example of a more thrusting kick, with quick retraction.

Side kicks can be done by turning the foot inward and whipping a front kick out with a torquing motion. In other words it is a front snap kick where the foot rotates inwards and the blade of the foot is used to strike the abdomen or lower, middle and upper portion of the opponents legs. It can be whipped straight up with just a slight chambering, and is useful as a stop-kick against offensive minded types, or an attack to the inguinal crease that will stop your opponent from rushing in. If you control your opponent in close and are standing, follow up whip kicks with the heel, toe-tips and blade of the foot can be executed to his inner thighs and medial knee area, destroying his base and leading to a sweep or other takedown.

Sorry for the length. I thought I'd add that last little tech just in case ya'll train for "whipping" leg sweeps and kicks. The front facing sidekick of some Okinawan styles is prevalent in a lot of the Southern Chinese styles.

Hope this helps...

[TkdWarrior]

i think most of ppl must hav written(just skimmed thru posts)
in TKD we do side kick from the lead leg, it's much of skipping/hopping... u skip then came on back leg n shoot the lead leg into opnt. after contact pull it back n for balance get in the same stance as u were... if ur opnt is double sized to u...he'll be stopped immediately n most probably hav his ribs broken...
-TkdWarrior-

[JusticeZero]

If you're counting on getting your power from falling forward into the target, then you're not going to get anything out of it anyways. You should concentrate more on the dynamics of how you expand outward from your base.

[fa_jing]

Transferring your weight into a punch or kick can be a big part of the force of the strike.

[omegapoint]

Originally posted by fa_jing
Transferring your weight into a punch or kick can be a big part of the force of the strike.

I agree. Training for speed will help in power distribution. If you are doing a TKD or Karate style skipping sidekick, the same principles will apply but weight transferrence is aided by the body's forward momentum. Using the hips a little, sinking with low-line kicks, quick retraction while keeping your kicks supple and relaxed. Relaxed power can compensate for lack of weight or muscular power.

Some folks have recommended leaning forward or back. I would suggest the middle path and say that balance should be centered, neither forward or back. If you have to lean then slightly forward would be best. No need to overthrust and leave a leg out to be caught. Bring your leg back and down quickly.

A little "english" behind your kick coupled with speed, and your kicks will get strong and fast ,quickly. It's worked for many I know, and I ain't got to tell ya' these things (SUPER SECRETS OF THE UCHINANCHU BUSHI, hahaha) but oh well...Good luck, be cool and remember, speed kills!