Being Aggressive

[red5angel]

I was just reading the thread "Why doesnt good Wing Chun = Good fighter" and I had to laugh a little. Wing Chun is a deep art there is no doubt about that, and there are some benefits to your health and peace of mind from practicing it but Wing Chun is ABOUT FIGHTING plain and simple. You are studying the most efficient, most effective fighting system, what makes it such? It has Nei Gung principles and Wei Gung principles combined because with both of them you can fight effectively and be balanced in this ability. In practicing Leung Sheung we stress a slow SLT to develope internal power and to develop muscle not usually develop to help strengthen our structure. This leads to a better fighting ability. Do you really think you are ever going to see a "Wing Chun for Health" video out there or book? Or how about building confidence? Is it about building confidence maybe? Side effect possible but I am sure it wasn't designed to help people find thier inner strength specifically.
There is another string about backing up! Carl Dechiara told us if you have to back up a half step can be acceptable, but generally, if you are backing up you are lost! Your structure has been broke and you are on the run. Cut straight to the middle and take thier centerline, destroy their structure and root and the fight is yours.
If you are getting something else out of wingchun that’s great, I know for me I have gained confidence, some self discipline, self motivation, and have even got into better shape. These things are great to include in your training regimen if that is what you are loking for as well but we should never loose sight of the fact that wing chun is a simple and effective fighting system.
I dont go out looking for fights, if I can I will talk my way out or remove myself from a situation, but I take wing chun for those instances when all of these things fail, I take it because if I have to fight I want to know the art I am studying is quick and as lethal as it has to be.

[TzuChan]

WingTsun/WingChun is something I study just like you say, to be able to fight/defend myself, cause I don't really live in a nice neighbourhood. Yet since I practice WingTsun, I haven't had a single fight, I think it's basically (ok this might sound really gay) that I no longer feel like proving myself, I know what I'm worth, and ain't willing to get my clothes dirty or get a broken foot or something, just cause some jack4ss shouted 'your mother..' :p WingTsun has improved me in many ways, I'm totally relaxed now, don't get angry anymore (could be that I'm just becoming more mature ;) ), have a lot of self-control, I kick my ego's butt once in a while too now, and maybe a dangerous thing but I'm (over)self confident.

[red5angel]

Tzuchan - the feelings you get are normal, as far as confidence and stuff go but are you overconfident? do you have what it takes to get the job done when needed? Are you aggressive enough and are you skills where they need to be? Are your basics good? Deep stance, good sensitivity, economical motions?
One thing I have personally noticed about WT, atleast the stuff I have seen, is that it seems to be very energetic and bouncy.

[TzuChan]

not bouncy, it really ain't that different from WT at all, they just did some changes, were you try to do as much as you can to keep one hand free to attack and one to defend. When I did WC stage they showed us some moves, where you would go in block, block, with the two hands, blocking one hand, in order to make a nice move though, in WT it's just block -> punch, now WC and WT are totally the same there, the form varies a bit, and since it was invented after WC, it's a bit more adapted to it's time .. I have no preference of style, I'm doing WT cause that's the only school I can find. No bouncing around or anything, I learn the same moving forward/sideward steps as I did in WC.

And yes, over-confident, once I was in the store, this really tall black dude stands next to me, and he looks at me like 'you want a piece of me' you know how people sometimes tempt to look for 'just a reason' to hit you .. I just stared back like I was all that lol, while he would probably have kicked the **** out of me. But now I'm getting my feet on the ground it seems, I'm guessing everybody had it when they did WC/WT for a while.

[Alpha Dog]

Another sermon from Mount Dullard

[Redd]

Originally posted by Alpha Dog
Another sermon from Mount Dullard

"And social norms prevent most people, when faced with incompetence, from blurting out, ``You stink!'' -- truthful though this assessment may be." (http://www.lingsoft.fi/~reriksso/competence.html)

[Alpha Dog]

The world needs Richard III too

[red5angel]

The irony is killing me........

[kungfu cowboy]

Interesting article, Redd.

[byond]

hey red5angle,

i agree completly that wing chun, ving tsun, wing tsun , weng chun or what ever else you call it is for combat. it is for "taking: out your opponent as fast as possible....it is not patty cake patty cake.....
the post about good wing chun not =a good fighter is not suggesting wc isnt for combat. what it is saying, is that you can be good at wing chun drills, you might have good root, you might be able to stand in ygkym for 3 hours but if you dont train realisticaly in high stress situations using your wc skills for combat, you will more likely than not get creamed in a real fight. wc is theoretical until it is used...sometimes theory doesnt work the same on paper as it does in reality:( .....i may for example in the context of wc,in the context of class against a some what willing opponent who is using wc, be pretty darn good looking but put me on the street with someone not feeding me verticle punchs...possibly trying to take me to the ground or hit me with brick and it might not turn out the way i want...know what i mean??:D

[red5angel]

"if you dont train realisticaly in high stress situations using your wc skills for combat, you will more likely than not get creamed in a real fight. "

I agree, and you also have to have the proper skills and good foundation, if you have those in combination with some good practice, you will fight well

[TzuChan]

We don't spar at all in our classes, hmm, looks like I'm gonne have to **** people of this summer to get some real life experience ? ;)

[fa_jing]

Tzuchan - I hope not, just work it out with a partner on friendly terms.

-FJ

[yuanfen]

"One reason that the ignorant also tend to be the blissfully self-assured, the researchers believe, is that the skills required for competence often are the same skills necessary to recognize competence. "

It is a good article Redd. Thanks for the bright spot on this thread.

Regarding it's applicability on this thread at an early point---zzzzzzzzzzz
phew!

[red5angel]

Hmmmmm, I would be willing to put my money on the people who have honest responses here that they may have an understanding of what being aggressive means.
Remember there is a seminar next weekend, if you got the guts, the curiosity and the time come check it out, you just have to find a little time out of your life to stop mouth boxing and lay it all down........

[rogue]

"There is another string about backing up! Carl Dechiara told us if you have to back up a half step can be acceptable, but generally, if you are backing up you are lost! "

Nice thought Red5, but sometimes you are overtaken by circumstances. While backing up is not the best thing to do, it may be the best thing at that moment. Also what's Carls opinion on backing up 5/8 of a step? :D (Sorry R5A, I couldn't resist).

"Your structure has been broke and you are on the run."

Is WC that fragile? I hope not since I'd hate to waste my money on that seminar this fall. :p

"Cut straight to the middle and take thier centerline, destroy their structure and root and the fight is yours."

What happens if he has other ideas?:eek:

Sometimes a fight may happen when you're not ready, you get hit first and have to recover, isn't defense initially better at that point?

[yuanfen]

Is WC that fragile?
--------------------------------

Surely there's an answer
Let it be, let it be.

[anerlich]

if you got the guts, the curiosity and the time come check it out, you just have to find a little time out of your life to stop mouth boxing and lay it all down........

Somebody please get me a bucket ....

[yuanfen]

How big a bucket?

[kj]

Talk about broad application, LOL.

A friend of mine told me about that Cornell study a couple of years ago. I had all but forgotten it, but it's in the permanent archives now. :D

Thanks for the link, Redd.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[anerlich]

How big a bucket?

Fairly big and not too heavy, I think. It looks like I'll need to use it regularly.

[anerlich]

Hey Redd, good link, thanks.

[vingtsunstudent]

yo anerlich
i think a W H I Z(CAN YOU BELIEVE THEY CENCORED W H I Z) bin may be more to your liking.
at least you can wheel it around with ya, then whenever those words of wisdom enter your head you can simply regurgitate them for whoever is around.
red, your level of wisdom after a whole 3 years is outstanding & odviously getting better by the minute.
and who said following blindly doesn't lead to knowledge.
vts

[yuanfen]

A wingchunner from Nantucket
Had no need for a bucket
Till an slt done aggressively
He hadda nip or tuck it

ARRRGH

[anerlich]

I like the mobility idea with the wheelie bin ... bit of a PITA to empty when it's heavy, though.

[anerlich]

Yuanfen,

while I have great respect for your skills, I have to tell you that a talent for poetry is not among them.

vts,

my personal favorites re censorship are ****her and sop****re. Funny how anus don't get censored but d a m n does.

[yuanfen]

anerlich- the skill in poetry can vary with the subject or source
of inspiration. On this long thread the muses have been snoring
from the start..

[sunkuen]

"Remember there is a seminar next weekend, if you got the guts, the curiosity and the time come check it out, you just have to find a little time out of your life to stop mouth boxing and lay it all down........"

what a clown!!!

[yuanfen]

the muses have fled but humor and sleep devivation remains.
hahazzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Fred Sanford]

There is another string about backing up! Carl Dechiara told us if you have to back up a half step can be acceptable, but generally, if you are backing up you are lost! Your structure has been broke and you are on the run. Cut straight to the middle and take thier centerline, destroy their structure and root and the fight is yours.

Nice theory. Ever tried putting it to use?

[Grendel]

Originally posted by red5angel
Hmmmmm, I would be willing to put my money on the people who have honest responses here that they may have an understanding of what being aggressive means.
Remember there is a seminar next weekend, if you got the guts, the curiosity and the time come check it out, you just have to find a little time out of your life to stop mouth boxing and lay it all down........

Folks, please don't judge the Leung Sheung lineage by one unfortunate example. Redd's article was totally apropos.

Regards,

[kungfu cowboy]

******! This is LaMont!! Greedy Grady says, "It's time to rhyme, it ain't no crime, Balthusala!"!!

[yuanfen]

Folks, please don't judge the Leung Sheung lineage by one unfortunate example. Redd's article was totally apropos
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Leung Sheung teachings and Kenneth Chung teachings are not an issue in the slightest bit with me. I have nothing but respect for them.
But the Cornell article is relevant for explaining the great outpouring of sheer garbage that has taken place. The clueless author of the garbage "learns" and practices in Minneapolis from a student of CD- while the latter is more often in Ohio apparently. While I believe in free speech- someone in that lineage could counsel that gentleman- on good speech. It could be a public service.

[kj]

Originally posted by yuanfen
While I believe in free speech- someone in that lineage could counsel that gentleman- on good speech. It could be a public service.

FWIW, I believe that many have tried to lend polite, kind, and occasionally very direct assistance in understanding the ramifications of failing to understand and observe certain social protocols.

In general, there seem to be some things which can be learned but cannot be taught.

Writing and/or communications styles can too easily yield unintended perceptions and consequences. It is too easy for us, as authors, to be oblivious to the ramifications of our own handiwork.

Yet, as they say, each is their own person. Not only in choices of action, but even where to place concern and whether on self-interest or on others. Everyone's entitled to an opinion; as I've so often been reminded, even if it disagrees with mine, LOL.

How one reflects on oneself is certainly a free choice, though how one inadvertently reflects on others can be unfortunate. :(

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Alpha Dog]

Faith No More has an interesting take on the topic of being aggressive: http://www.reallyrics.com/lyrics/F000400040009.asp

[red5angel]

Yuanfen, I would like to use one of your favorite lines here - Yawn. You still insist on being a virtual sifu teaching the blind masses how they should act and what it is they should be saying? If you want to talk about saying and not saying the things we should or should not, I have seen your wing chun, I could comment on that? Of course why bother? You predictable deflections wouldnt disprove anything just continue to perpetuate the idea you know what it is of which you speak.

As for my communication style, and the subjects on which I choose to speak, most of this forum is used to kiss each others repsective behinds "Oh your wingchun is wonderful, although I wouldnt do it THAT WAY, it must work for you and thats ok." "Oh Well thank you once again for agreeing with me, we make such a good happy wingchun family!"
CRAP. I put a few post on here about who it is I train with and then post on some ideas we use to train and you guys get all offended and upset? I challenge your ideas of how you do things and you get upset? Doesn't bode well for your confidence does it? Some have managed to answer the questions I have asked on other threads, without attacks from me of course and most of us have been able to talk about it. There are a couple that are mor ethen useless in thier dribble, although I wont name names Alpha dog and Yuanfen, that would be impolite right?
I recommend you find a forum for people who think they are smarter then all the others, Yuanfen you go back to teaching your brand of wingchun in arizona and stop trying to teach it on the internet it translates worse here then in Tempe. I dont usually stoop to personal attacks but your replkies are usually worthless and self aggrandizing, meant to make you look smart and full of knowledge while designed to make others less then equal.
Well, I am confident my wingchun is better then yours. Yep I said it, wanna know why? Because all wing chun is not created equal sorry to break it to you guys. As I have said before most of it is crap. There are a few guys at the top who make the different stuff work, there are afew guys and gals out there practicing thier little hearts out but the rest, garbage. If this upsets you? too bad, ask yourself why?
I have already put the challenge out to come check it and make an informed decision of your own, but those that challenege the hardest have the most reasons why it is best to stay home. The best of all is it is safe to live in a world of your own creation.

[black and blue]

:eek:

The only way Yuanfen and Red5Angel are to settle this is with a fight!

Record it - mpeg it - post it. Fight, Fight, Fight! :p

[Alpha Dog]

I am done slamming you.

I cannot mock someone I sincerely pity.

[popsider]

You can step back in wing chun - you can do it and keep your structure - it can be the best course of action in certain circumstances. Rogue you got it right - if structure is that fragile then you had no structure in the first place.

[red5angel]

Alpha Dog - Thanks, I feel so relieved. you still have a stanidng invitation to the seminar, freindly of course, no ill intent meant.

[yuanfen]

red5angel
Jedi Knight


Yuanfen, I would like to use one of your favorite lines here - Yawn. You still insist on being a virtual sifu teaching the blind masses how they should act and what it is they should be saying? If you want to talk about saying and not saying the things we should or should not, I have seen your wing chun, I could comment on that? Of course why bother? You predictable deflections wouldnt disprove anything just continue to perpetuate the idea you know what it is of which you speak.

((Dear Jedi Knight- you stood in the corner-in a single class.
In vain I tried to unglue your dry wood stiff tan sao which was glued to your body.. You didnt have a clue. That IS the truth.
Read the Cornell article that Redd posted. Go back to basics and get a little humilty on competence - you might learn yet. I actually am serious. You are really the one doing the "mouth boxing" -to use one of your terms. You really are not doing your lineage justice. Attacking me and others really doesnt improve your wing chun or your description of it.))Yuanfen

As for my communication style, and the subjects on which I choose to speak, most of this forum is used to kiss each others repsective behinds "Oh your wingchun is wonderful, although I wouldnt do it THAT WAY, it must work for you and thats ok." "Oh Well thank you once again for agreeing with me, we make such a good happy wingchun family!"

Well, I am confident my wingchun is better then yours. Yep I said it, wanna know why? Because all wing chun is not created equal sorry to break it to you guys. As I have said before most of it is crap.

I have already put the challenge out to come check it and make an informed decision of your own, but those that challenege the hardest have the most reasons why it is best to stay home. The best of all is it is safe to live in a world of your own creation.

((Very sad paragraphs above in the compulsive posting)))






black and blue
Bruised Member




The only way Yuanfen and Red5Angel are to settle this is with a fight!

Record it - mpeg it - post it. Fight, Fight, Fight!

((No. I have "touched his hands"...one of his phrases. I concede.)))yuanfen







Alpha Dog

Red5Angel
I am done slamming you.

I cannot mock someone I sincerely pity.


((Barring the option to comment on anything personal-no other comments on red5angel's posts from me))Cheers-yuanfen

[red5angel]

Yuanfen, I participated in your class one night a week for 4-5 weeks, I did not stand in the corner with my rigid tan sau while you tried to teach me the way. As for attacking you, I have tried to stay away from you on this forum but you insist on pressing your attacks. I am not timid and only have humility where it is necessary and recquired.
I have come a long way since that time, perhaps you should pay more attention to the passing of time and how it affects one in training. I do not put my 2-4 hours of training a day in so that I can retain the skill I have but to improve.

[red5angel]

Popsider - If you have a strong root, you can take a half step back to regain it but if you have no root in the first place then it will do you know good.

[yuanfen]

red5angel
Jedi Knight

Registered: Dec 1969
Location: minneapolis, mn
Posts: 1428
Yuanfen, I participated in your class one night a week for 4-5 weeks, I did not stand in the corner with my rigid tan sau while you tried to teach me the way.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry jedi knight - your memory is failing you. You stopped and asked one day about participating in a class approximately two
years ago... and I specified a day that you could do so. You couldnt even remember the lineage of a guy who tried to show you something before. When you went back to Twin Cities after attending fairs... you were making bows and arrows for medieval wannabes in fairs--- you asked me repeatedly for advice on studying
wing chun in Minnesota. I mentioned that I didnt think that there was good wing chun in the Twin Cities at the time. You thought enough to keep asking for advice at the time.You found someone who was mixing styles... before your current affiliation where apparently you have seen the ;oght..
BTW- my very long standing policy has been- that if someone is not my student, by arrangement with my permission they can be a guest in a single class. Easily verifiable.
I dont run a mcdojo and do not accept one and all off the street.
Why fabricate history in lashing out? I suggest you concentrate on your wing chun rather than posts like the last few ones..

[yuanfen]

red5angel
Jedi Knight

Registered: Dec 1969
Location: minneapolis, mn
Posts: 1428
Yuanfen, I participated in your class one night a week for 4-5 weeks, I did not stand in the corner with my rigid tan sau while you tried to teach me the way.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry jedi knight - your memory is failing you. You stopped and asked one day about participating in a class approximately two
years ago... and I specified a day that you could do so. Yhe tan sao was in beginning slt.You couldnt even remember the lineage of a guy who tried to show you something before. When you went back to Twin Cities after attending fairs... you were making bows and arrows for medieval wannabes in fairs--- you asked me repeatedly for advice on studying
wing chun in Minnesota. I mentioned that I didnt think that there was good wing chun in the Twin Cities at the time. You thought enough to keep asking for advice at the time.You found someone who was mixing styles... before your current affiliation where apparently you have seen the light..
BTW- my very long standing policy has been- that if someone is not my student, by arrangement with my permission they can be a guest in a single class. Easily verifiable.
I dont run a mcdojo and do not accept one and all off the street.
Why fabricate history in lashing out? I suggest you concentrate on your wing chun rather than posts like the last few ones..

[dragontounge2]

You are all so content in your skills. But none of you can truly see your shortcomings until you achive true proficiency and can witness true skill.

[rogue]

Hate interrupt the love fest but...

R5, if one half step back is OK, wouldn't 2 or more half steps also be OK? If I can maintain structure with one half step I should be able to maintain it using several. I've never seen Carl fight so take this with a grain of salt, but it sounds as if he's making statements/proclamations based on situations always being advantageous to his way of fighting, or at least being in a ready position. One thing I've found is that things seldom go that way.

[yuanfen]

Rogue sez:One thing I've found is that things seldom go that way
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What the other fella is doing is always an important variable.
Hence, I am generally skeptical of a single technique fits all kind of advice. If something is a few inches off- an entirely different response may be in order.

[red5angel]

Rogue - As far as I know it does not matter the situation really, the idea is that if you have to take more then that half step you are in trouble and regaining your root will be almost impossible. you take more then that and your opponent is getting ready to destroy you.
The half step is to go from the wing chun stance to the back stance. If you use more steps then this, especially if your opponent has real solid skills, you will become disconnected and have no power. They will be in control.





Yuanfen, we are done talking, your facts are half right and half wrong and I have no real need to argue the point with someone roughly 40 years my senior.

[yuanfen]

Jedi Knight- no problem. Go in peace. Regarding the parting shot on "age". Yoda assures me- matters not. click, click, click

[churn-ging]

the idea is that if you have to take more then that half step you are in trouble and regaining your root will be almost impossible. you take more then that and your opponent is getting ready to destroy you.

I will have to say that this idea really depends on what your hands are doing. If your structure is collapased and you need to take a half step back to regain it but don't move your hands forward, then your opponent can still come in towards your center again and collapse your structure. Same with one step back or two steps back.

But, if your structure is collapsed and you take a half step back and you move your hands forward to regain your structure, then you will be able to intercept your opponents forward advance on you and prevent him from coming in towards you center to collapse you again. This will work with one step back or two steps back.

[anerlich]

You are all so content in your skills. But none of you can truly see your shortcomings until you achive true proficiency and can witness true skill.

A problem that can be solved this weekend if you take red5angel's advice and go to Carl's seminar!:D

I doubt that I will EVER be "content in my skills".

[anerlich]

red5angel says to Yuanfen:


You still insist on being a virtual sifu teaching the blind masses how they should act and what it is they should be saying?

look who's talking.

[anerlich]

Also what's Carls opinion on backing up 5/8 of a step?

Real men only back up 3/8 of a step ;)

[Rill]

Stepping back -
I believe the saying goes something like 'for every step you take back, you should take two forwards'. Stepping back more than half a step does not implicitly mean you will lose your structure, sometimes you are required to step back for whatever reason, willingly or not. Specifying an exact distance, even in a general situation, is not correct because it's always going to depend on the person involved, and the situation they're in. Perhaps, red5angel, you could ask Carl to elaborate on this statement in the seminar.

red5angel -

most of this forum is used to kiss each others repsective behinds "Oh your wingchun is wonderful, although I wouldnt do it THAT WAY, it must work for you and thats ok."
I don't think you're paying attention very well. Go read some of the more contentious threads and you might change your mind. The forum is for an exchange of ideas, we can't demonstrate things here because of the nature of the forum - if we could, things might be a little easier and clear cut as to what works and what doesn't. Instead, we have to keep our minds open and accept that our lineage and Sifu's may not be 100% correct 100% of the time, or may not have all the answers to what we need to know. Don't mistake this for fawning.


I put a few post on here about who it is I train with and then post on some ideas we use to train and you guys get all offended and upset? I challenge your ideas of how you do things and you get upset?
No, it's just because you have this annoying way of hero-worshipping Carl, and none of us wants to hear it. We could all sit here and post things about how good our Sifu's and Sigung's are, how many certifications they have, what form they're studying and who they've touched hands with, and we'd probably all look like we did when we were younger going on about how my dad could kick your dads butt - childish. There's no need for it and it's a waste of time to have to trawl through such posts looking for the grain of content.


There are a couple that are mor ethen useless in thier dribble, although I wont name names Alpha dog and Yuanfen, that would be impolite right?
Personally, I have found some of yuanfen and Alpha Dogs replies to be most helpful. Heck, I've even found Anerlich's replies to be helpful at times :D. And no, it's not impolite to name names, it's impolite to say person X sucks because they're of Y lineage and since your lineage is not Y then they're wrong. Likewise, it's impolite to say that because you visited yuanfen's classes (regardless of how many you took) that he sucks - whether you think he does or not, three years is not enough time to know it, and there's no call for it on the forum.


Well, I am confident my wingchun is better then yours. Yep I said it, wanna know why? Because all wing chun is not created equal sorry to break it to you guys. As I have said before most of it is crap.
To put it bluntly, this is just plain arrogant. We all experience the stage of 'my WC is the best in the world and the rest of you suck!', but after a little while you come to appreciate that there are more lineages, and more teachers than you know of. There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy, red5angel. Until you have visited the vast majority of schools internationally, then perhaps it would be prudent to hold your tongue on the state of WC skill that exists outside of your Sigung's teachings. There were four senior students of Yip Man, and simply because your lineage has its root at one of them does not mean that what you are being taught is unfiltered, or that the other lineages no longer exist.


I have already put the challenge out to come check it and make an informed decision of your own
Honestly, if I could afford to jetset over and visit the seminar, then I would, but since I'm in another country I can't. Feel free to come visit my school sometime though, and we'll play. Perhaps if you expose yourself to other lineages outside your area then you'll mellow out some and realise what the rest of us have come to.


DISCLAIMER
---------------
The message you have just read is not intended to slight or defame any WC practioner, regardless of lineage or skill. If you think it does, grow up. Warranty void if removed.

[straight blast]

We all experience the stage of 'my WC is the best in the world and the rest of you suck!', but after a little while you come to appreciate that there are more lineages, and more teachers than you know of.

How true. The only difference here is most of us don't put a public record of our infatuations and draw attention to them. R5A your enthusiasm is to be admired, your Sifu worship isn't. In a little while you'll be quaking down inside that you wrote yourself down as a blind follower. But the follies of youth are precisely that, and are to be enjoyed. Just hope you don't lose faith in the system when your Sifu screws up or does something that really pi$$es you off and you realise he's as human as the next guy. Or even worse for the cultish following mindset, gets his ass kicked some day.

Enjoy your training as an individual learning Wing Chun. Don't be a puppy forever ;)

[anerlich]

I've even found Anerlich's replies to be helpful at times

Well, I'm glad one of us got something useful out of the interaction.

[red5angel]

Worship guys? Really? Do you really believe this? The guys amazing, and the reason I am learning from him is because he is good, the best I have seen. this doesnt recquire worship, I am not a religious man.

Anerlich, I find many of your comments to be helpful or atleast insightful.

Anyone else use this half step method?

[Merryprankster]

Red,

Would it help any if I told you you're overzealous? Not that my opinion is any more valid, but it sometimes helps to hear it from an "outside source."

Let me explain it this way: You know those fundamentalist, evangelical christians who hound people at the mall? You're one of them, only with WC. It doesn't mean I don't like you. It doesn't mean you're not a good guy. It doesn't mean that you don't have real substance or good knowledge. It just means that people would rather get on with their business of having discussions about something without being told they're wrong, and that you're/Carl's right, constantly.

It's very annoying to be told that you have the "truth," and everybody else who doesn't do it your way is wrong. I'm painting in broad brush strokes here, so don't get bogged down in the weeds--I'm sure there are specific instances in which that is not true, but generally speaking, it's an accurate assessment.

Here is the structure of most of your threads:

You: "What do you guys think of this idea?"
Others: "Well, we think this, but here are some other ideas too."
You: "Ah, see, those are wrong."
Others: "Well that's what I was taught."
You: "You were taught poorly. I don't think your Sifu knows as much as Carl. If he/she did, you would have learned this..."

I agree there is good and bad anything--heck, there's good and bad pizza, right? But proselytizing (sp) to the world doesn't help anybody. You don't get your point across, and they don't care to listen--in fact, they just walk by FASTER.

It just makes them wish you'd pick a different mall to hang out it.

Trust me--it's worship. You might not be religious, but you've got some hero worship going on... words like preaching, proselytizing, and evangelical all fit because you are "here to bring the 'truth.'" Even if you're RIGHT, it's not your responsibility to spread the good news.

You lack even the motive of saving others from hell in this instance :).... so take a breather and think for a minute. You've got a LOT of people telling you exactly the same thing... and they ain't all wrong.

Hey, I'm sure some of the people on this whole board think I'm overzealous, but I don't run around saying "This is the way and this is the man who teaches it." I advocate a few basic ideas and as far as I'm concerned anybody, regardless of style or creed, who does those things--spars hard and does so outside their style on a regular basis, is going to be fine. I don't say "You must learn to fight MY way because it's RIGHT, and if you don't recognize that, then you are doing it wrong..."

[old jong]

red5angel.
Are you in that picture? (http://home.mn.rr.com/wingchun/images/groupix.jpg)

[Rill]

Well, I'm glad one of us got something useful out of the interaction.

Perhaps you misunderstood me. I never said I got anything out of our interactions, I just meant sometimes you post things I don't comment on because I agree with them :D


Worship guys? Really? Do you really believe this? The guys amazing, and the reason I am learning from him is because he is good, the best I have seen. this doesnt recquire worship, I am not a religious man.
Yes. This is the point. Carl may the best you have seen, but it doesn't mean he is the best out there, or that he is anywhere near being the best. Take this into consideration when you're marvelling at his skills and proclaiming it to the masses.

[black and blue]

Who cares which one is R5A?! :mad:

Who cares about R5A's T-Shirt, sunkuen?! :mad:

All that matters is that there is a girl with red hair! :cool:

This will shock you all... but I LIKE red hair. :)....... LOTS!

I know, I know... it's not right.

I just can't help it.... :(

[red5angel]

Old Jong, yep, I am fourth from the left, second row.

MP - Yeah I know what you are saying, I know what it must seem like to others, and I am ok with that.

"Even if you're RIGHT, it's not your responsibility to spread the good news. "

Whoes would it be? If you are a christian for instance, would you say that just because Jesus was right he shouldnt have been out preaching it?

"I advocate a few basic ideas"

I do as well, and that is the main jist of my push, to get wingchun back to its basics. Most Wing Chun people dont use them, they skim over them to get to the better more exciting stuff.

"You must learn to fight MY way because it's RIGHT, and if you don't recognize that, then you are doing it wrong..."

If you are learinng a specific style that style has defined how to fight within its limits and ideals.


Besides guys, who says when I say these things I am talking to you? what if you are doing it right?

[yuanfen]

red5angel again and still?Sez:

I do as well, and that is the main jist of my push, to get wingchun back to its basics. Most Wing Chun people dont use them, they skim over them to get to the better more exciting stuff.

((he is ina study group in Minneapolis waiting for more enlightment and he is again pontificating on all of wing chun. In spite of being in art with chi sao and a recognition of the importance of feel- he is clueless on what people are telling him)))


Besides guys, who says when I say these things I am talking to you? what if you are doing it right?

((who is he talking to? Himself.
Robert de Niro in a room in The Taxi Driver- are you talking to me? are you talking to me?))

((The list now has only one thread- "the futilty of educating red5angel". Just as soon as you think there is some moderation-
he preaches and lashes out at all the sinners- a true believer
and boring.))

[red5angel]

Yuanfen, I am well aware of what people are telling me, please re-read my response to MP and you will see that I have made that plain.
As for study groups, I am on the right path and am walking that path with several people who feel the same way.
I am talking to those who continue to get upset and concern themselves with my education. I am doing fine here in minneapolis, just looking for more training partners.

[yuanfen]

they all look alike<g> except for the redhead-is that red real?

[Mutant]

Hey Red, first off let me say that i think your enthusiasm is great. Such passion and dedication is nesessary to really stick it out and 'get' an art.

But i think some of these guys have valid points and are trying to let you in on a larger 'macro' view of training and different styles and approaches. I think Prankser hit the nail right on the head. I love the mall preacher analogy :D

You very well might be learning good stuff and thats great for you. But keep in mind that you are obviously in the 'True Believer' stage right now, which is part of the natural progression, i suppose. It is sort of like a teenager that thinks their right about everything. You think your styles best and your sifu walks on water right now. A lot of people go throught this. I went through it while studying Wu Xing Chuan years back. If you stick with MA long enough you'll come to see that there are many ways to approach and do things, even in wing chun which has relatively strict principles and structure.

Even though you say youre not religous, martial arts can be kind of like a religion, its human nature and a pattern of behavior that can manifest around religion, philosophical ideals, martial arts practices, etc. Some of the biggest zealots I have known are not religous, well, not in a traditional sense anyway. When you spend so much time and energy dedicated and focused on something that is bringing you enlightenment and tangible development and enjoyment, it is natural profess as you do. But beware, the fall down of the pedestal is a harsh one, the more narrow you hone your beliefs and more time you invest, the harder the fall. Travel far enough and spar &/or fight enough people and the fall is inevitable.

"What is below, cannot see what is above....but what is above can clearly see whats below." -from the book .Mt. Analog

Continue to enjoy your training and good luck with your seminar

[BeiKongHui]

For bringing humor to another boring work day.

To enhance the enjoyment I get from these posts I have assigned voices to the players and I'd like to share them so we can all have a laugh.

Yuenfen "Don't lke moderators until I need 'em" = Edward G. Robinson (see?)

R5A= Keanu Reaves, except that he ends every thing in an "ah" sound like any good fundie. You must practica the 3 seedsa if you wish yadda yadda...

Sunkuen/EntertheWhip/AlphaDog= Niles Crane from Frasier

MP=Bob Newhart (for obvious reasons)

Anerlich=Steve-O Irwin

Old Jong=<Insert name of French Candien hockey player here>


:)

[Merryprankster]

Red5Angel--

But there is also room for creative differences within the limits imposed by the style.

BJJ and wrestling both have a "way of fighting." However, the feel varies from place to place and person to person. In my high-school, we were big on shooting singles and doubles. Across town, there was another school that was big on upperbody throws. We were both VERY successful. Which school was doing it wrong?

Mario Sperry is a BJJer famous for his superb positioning skills and he is a World Champion many times over.

Pe de Pano is a BJJer famous for his guard work and his submission skills, and he is also a World Champion.

De La Riva is famous for a particularly slick guard position that he developed and is now NAMED after him.

Wallid Ismail is one of the better sport jiujitsu guys and is famous for his entire top game.

I believe Roleta is especially famous for his sweeps.

There is another successful black belt, who's name escapes me at the moment, who has a half-guard game that is unparalleled and he is famous for that.

Which one of the above is doing it wrong?


I'm sure Carl has an interpretation of WC that is very successful, but that does not make it the ONLY right way, within the limits described by the phrase 'Wing Chun'. His skills may indeed be incredible and it just might be the training methods. More probably it is his training, his experience, and his own natural abilities that have expressed themselves through WC in a coherent fighting style. You musn't confuse preference with truth.

re: Jesus--there's a big difference between thinking you are saving somebody from eternal ****ation and offering up 'the truth' about WC. Secondly, Jesus did very little in the way of evangelizing. He, as a jewish Rabbi, offerred his belief that he was the son of God and of Man, and an interpretation of the SPIRIT of Mosaic Law. The Evangelizing occurred mostly after his death, and was primarily thanks to Paul, who was Saul of Tarsus, if I remember correctly. This is a complete aside and really has little to do with the conversation at hand.

re: you being ok with the way you are perceived--Fine, but don't expect to be listened to at all. And if nobody will listen, to whom are you speaking?

[Merryprankster]

An aside to an aside--

Paul got thrown in jail a lot for being a pain in the local constabulatories' proverbial asses.

WC and limits--the distance between .01 and .011 is one thousandth...A finite, defined, limited distance....

and yet, an infinite quantity of numbers lies between those two points.

[Spark]

NILES CRANE!!

HAHAHAHAHAHA

ps don't beat me up.

[yuanfen]

Yuenfen "Don't lke moderators until I need 'em" = Edward G. Robinson (see?)


---------------------------------------------------------------
Close but no cigar-see?

[old jong]

red5angel...Merryprankster is right! This does not take anything from your sigung. I'm sure that he is very good but,Merryprankster is right.

[red5angel]

Old jong - right MP is correct, mostly.

[Merryprankster]

It might be your responsibility to expose them to YOUR way of doing things.... but it's not your responsibility to chase them half-way down the mall with a bullhorn.

[reneritchie]

MP - Gordo from Gracie Barra? (At least he's famous for the tapes ;) Good post. You're also correct in my experience. Some WCK experts are good at piercing straight in and uprooting, others at flanking and tearing down, others vice versa. Some are excellent with a small toolset that is useful 90% of the time (specialized), others are okay with a larger toolset (flexible). Some are good in figuring out what's needed to beat a certain foe, others are good at making their foe's fight their way. I've never had the pleasure of meeting two exactly the same, yet I've had the pleasure of meeting many very good, and a few outstanding folks.

[red5angel]

Thanks guys,now back to the subject of being aggressive, does it win a fight? does your level of aggression determine if you will win or not?

[dragontounge2]

Yes aggression is a key in a fight. If you have lots of adrenaline and you rush in and beat the sh!t out of some body alot of time you dont notice that you have been hit. But the best way to win a fight is to stay clear minded, be fluid and embrace and clear their strike and when you get into an opening crush them. elbo them in the face, crack their ribs, break their skin, drop them on their @ss and choke them, go into a fight like its the end and you must win. only fight when it is needed if some fool in a bar starts to b!tch at you dont use such tactics.

[Merryprankster]

Yeah, Gordo. That was it.

Red5--so when somebody disagrees with you you're just going to gloss over it and get back to the subject? I challenge you to either admit you were wrong or to tell me you don't see it my way, and why.

Dragon--did you ever make it to any of the places I suggested? You can also check out www.team-roc.com. They have people who are willing to spar, I'm sure.

[red5angel]

MP, where would I admit I was wrong? I agreed with you on the idea it isnt my job to chase someone aroud with a 'bullhorn'. I dont feel I am necessarily wrong in my approach however as I find that interpretation plays into a lot of how people see and read things. I have plenty of responses out of curiosity and this spurs ocnversaiton which is what I am looking for. I may be aggressive in my veiws but thats ok, you can gloss over my post right?
As for glossing over others, the original string was about being aggressive, and that is what I want to talk about. If you wish you can start another string about what you are getting at but I agree with alot of what you are saying. as for different way sof doing it sure, but the body is finite in its ability and we find that sometimes there are more efficient ways of doing things then others, your a boxer you should know that by now.

[Merryprankster]

Fair enough Red5--that's much better as an answer, and I greatly appreciate it.

Boxing efficient? Whoda thunk it? :D

However, unlike, WC, it is NOT a complete art.

[red5angel]

MP - agreed on all counts, I missed your post so that is why it took me so long to reply! :)

[Grendel]

Originally posted by churn-ging


I will have to say that this idea really depends on what your hands are doing. If your structure is collapased and you need to take a half step back to regain it but don't move your hands forward, then your opponent can still come in towards your center again and collapse your structure. Same with one step back or two steps back.

But, if your structure is collapsed and you take a half step back and you move your hands forward to regain your structure, then you will be able to intercept your opponents forward advance on you and prevent him from coming in towards you center to collapse you again. This will work with one step back or two steps back.

Hi Churn-ging,

What a great post in an otherwise content-less discussion. You should post it as its own thread.

It is obvious that you understand the principle and are not just regurgitating, "Sifu sez no more than 1/2 step back."

Your explanation is actually what Carl's sifu prescribes in regards to stepping back.

Cheers,

[red5angel]

Welcome to the conversation Grendel, glad you could participate.
Churn Ging, I would agree, no point in stepping back if you are going to keep your structure collapsed, of course a good wingchun man is going to try and stop you from doing that.

[anerlich]

Anerlich=Steve-O Irwin
Crikey!

Actually Steve's more popular in the US than he is here. Maybe all Aussies are crazy and he doesn't stand out as much here as he does there. Not that I dislike him, it's hard to dislike someone as innocent and enthusiastic as he. Sort of like the originator of this thread!

Churn-ging, good stuff.

My first instructor, David Crook, characterised the correct martial attitude as: control, awareness, *aggression* and ruthlessness.

[anerlich]

Anerlich, I find many of your comments to be helpful or atleast insightful.
Shucks. I like to think I have a bit of knowledge and the occasional flash of insight. I would counsel you and everyone else not to assume that you or your teacher know everything or more than everybody else.

In fact, I think more is to be gained by ruthlessly seeking out weaknesses in what are taught and what we practice.

[red5angel]

Anerlich says - "In fact, I think more is to be gained by ruthlessly seeking out weaknesses in what are taught and what we practice"

I agree, locate your weaknesses and work through them, try to find a better way.