not finishing an art

[Octavius]

Question for you all: It's understood by most serious MAists that there is really no such thing as complete mastery and it's an endless journey. BUt a style or system usually does have some sort of a curriculum, right? So what happens when for some reason you can't finish the system? I am thinking of reasons where you have to move away from your teacher and are still in good terms with him, but it's just not posible to learn from him anymore in person. Ideally it would be nice continue under som other qualified instructor (with your sifu's blessing of course), but what if the new location does not have anyone teaching your art? Has anyone faced this? I see 3 possibilities: 1) abandon the old art and pick up a new one - it was great while it lasted and you learned some good stuff, but it'll be hard to continue to learn on your own; 2) pick up a new art anyway, but keep and hold onto your old one - train and develop the old one as much you can but you only got so far in it, and you really should have qualified instruction, so the new focus will have to be the new art; 3) stick to your guns and train in your old art - so what if you have no one to teach you anymore and you didn't finish, just use what you got and take it where it will go on your own. What do ya guys think?

[Chang Style Novice]

I'd document as much of the knowledge of the first art that I could so's to keep from forgetting it and train it on a consistent, but probably reduced basis. Then I'd find another art that either blends well with the first, or is different enough that it 'fills in holes' in the first arts emphasis and train it with as much enthusiasm and dedication as circumstances permit.

For example, if I ever have to live someplace with no decent tai chi or shuai chiao training, I'll almost certainly have a boxing gym around that I can try out, although if it was available my first second choice would be some ground grappling approach (BJJ, Sombo, that judo ryu that focuses on newaza but the exact name escapes me...)

[apoweyn]

What Chang said.

I've had to move away from instructors on myriad occassions. But they've all left a mark on my training.

There's no reason why you can't continue practicing what you know on your own, assuming you're confident that you're doing it correctly. Then learn something else (according to the guidelines that Chang mentioned).

I suppose it's ultimately a question of priorities. For me, I wasn't particularly tied to one style or another, so the integration of new things into my training was fine. But if you feel strongly about preserving a given style, that dynamic changes a bit (though it certainly doesn't paint you into a corner).


Stuart B.

[No_Know]

If you have loyalty, train what you've done so far. As it is an endless journey, that would be enough. And when you get to a place where you can pick up your style again you should be well conditioned in the level to which you made-it.

[David Jamieson]

what happens when you finish university?

what happens when you finish your dinner?


An art is never finished and can always be built upon and added to. there are very few martial arts that do not follow the pattern of adding and enriching themselves over time.

The same is true of virtually any human endeavour.

You have it in you.

peace

[HuangKaiVun]

I've seen guys that have not trained very long that grasp the ESSENCE of a style, and I've seen even more guys that have trained all their lives and just DON'T GET IT.

When one grasps the ESSENCE of a style, then new moves can be improvised from that foundation of understanding.

That's why I tell my students to focus on getting ONE move down at a time. By doing so, they open the vistas for other moves to spontaneously arise.

[TenTigers]

here's a couple of thoughts;
I had a student who left for about 4 yrs and moved to Japan. Although he studied other arts there, he still practiced his forms, Well, he was so proud to tell me this upon his return, and then he showed me how much he didn't forget. (you see this comming a mile away, don'cha?) His form was atrocious! Sure he practiced every day, but without the constant minute corrections and subtle tune-ups by his Sifu, it slowly degenerated into this sad state. I had my work cut out for me, because although the mind was willing, the body had trained hard for four years, and it was hard to unlearn bad habits.
This is my one argument FOR video tapes. If you already have a handle on the system, meaning that you have already learned the pillar forms and structure and concepts, then you can maintain your skill and even "pick up" other sets form the system-provided of course, that the other sets are not based on learning different quality of energy. If you know Gung Gee Fook Fu, Fu-Hok Seurng Ying Kuen, and Ng Ying Kuen, you will not be able to "pick up" Tiet Sien Kuen, but you can learn Gow Duk Kuen, Wu Dip Jeurng,Moi Fa Kuen, and others.
If you have learned the curriculum, know the concepts, developed the skills and attributes, then you can spend time refining technique, developing your understanding, and can make discoveries that actually might not have happened if you had stayed with your teacher-depending on his understanding, and effectiveness as a teacher. These discoveries can be wonderful enlightening moments-epiphanies.
Also, studying another art can open up new doors of understanding, helping you understand what might have been missing from your instruction-again, depending on your teacher as well. Personally, studying internal arts,noi gung,kali, and suai-chiao has given me insight on what I already had, yet was not taught. You must research to find what complements your art, rather than something which might clash, or actually deteriorate your art. Kickboxing, although a formidable striking art, which can develop good timing and mental toughness, can destroy Gung-Fu. This is not a slam to kickboxing, it's like spagetti and ice cream, both great, but doesn't make for a good bannana split.

[rogue]

Step 1: Start to teach the art.
Step 2: Start saying the art is flawed.
Step 3: Start picking techniques from other systems.
Step 4: Start thinking up new name for "your" new art.
Step 5: Go into hiding or something before you fully formalize your art.
Step 6: Wait a few years and watch people fight over what your art really is or isn't.
Step 7:Get real angry over everyone and their mother using the name of your art which you didn't trademark.

[Budokan]

LOL @ Rogue! Yep, that seems to be the general sequence of events nowadays. More's the pity...

[dbulmer]

Or you could invent your own art. (thinking of Bruce Lee who never finished Wing Chun but developed JKD).

[Dark Knight]

Or you could invent your own art. (thinking of Bruce Lee who never finished Wing Chun but developed JKD).

Thats what roge is saying

Everyone is starting their own style today. Especially with so much info on video tape its easy.

Then you check out the internet for martial arts organizations to promote you a couple degrees and in a couple styles for a small fee.

Then presto you are a soke and started your own style.

[TenTigers]

That is so true. The other problem is guys who take several different styles, never get to any higher level other than green belt, and self promote themselves to Grandmaster. Kinda like going to six different elementary schools for sixth grade and it adding up to a Phd.

[rogue]

Heck with the McMMA schools you can even cut out much of the different JKD curriculums. Heck you don't even have to worry about not finishing an art or sampling different ones since all you need is 6 months Muay Thai, 6 months BJJ(usually under a blue belt), come up with a catchy name and you're ready to start leasing a couple hundred square feet of store front.

[HuangKaiVun]

And if you can IMPART the stylistic wisdom to the next generation, FACE challengers and not get utterly blown away, and UTILIZE your art in the way you intended, then who's to say that your little hodgepodge of styles doesn't work?

[shaolinboxer]

The most important lessons of an art are usually given first.

[Dark Knight]

And if you can IMPART the stylistic wisdom to the next generation, FACE challengers and not get utterly blown away, and UTILIZE your art in the way you intended, then who's to say that your little hodgepodge of styles doesn't work?


That would work if you had serious time in different styles. But most do not.

And as far as faceing chalengers, what do you consider a challenger? I have been in the arts for over 22 years. Any chalengers I have fought have not been of any serious ability. I can claim to beating thousands of students, but then I would be laughed at for useing that as an example of my art and ability.

As far as using your art in the attended way, take MT and BJJ for a year each and you have enough to be effective in the street. Is that the creation of and art? A person with good athletic capabilities can become a top fighter with less than one years training, but with hard work. Should we know say that he is a master and creator of his own style?

What do you consider enough training in the arts to qualify your art to be a new and effective one?

Even the world Sokeship council requires 20 years of experience and hold the rank of at least 6th in two styles to consider you eligable. And most major legitamate organizations dont accept that. (After all, why bother with 7th to 9th)

[No_Know]

"I had a student who left for about 4 yrs and moved to Japan. Although he studied other arts there, he still practiced his forms, Well, he was so proud to tell me this upon his return, and then he showed me how much he didn't forget. (you see this comming a mile away, don'cha?) His form was atrocious! Sure he practiced every day, but without the constant minute corrections and subtle tune-ups by his Sifu, it slowly degenerated into this sad state."

If he studied multiple arts (of) while in Japan, his practice of your forms was significantly less. Also, without refreshing, through practice, or having practiced enough for it to have sunk-in, the other arts he studied there would have demanded different directions of principles or theories than your forms (power, speed, grouping of techniques, fluidity, timing, focus, strength, tension, suppleness... Their requirements might have bled into what he could barely remember of your forms from actual Lack of practice. Regardless of what he thought or what he told you.

If he did not study other arts there while practicing your forms, he could have recalled things you or other instructors said to improve what he was already doing And thoughts of classmates and what looked right or not that they did might have also come to him. Making his fors possiblly even better than when he left if he reflected upon them.

[No_Know]

"I had a student who left for about 4 yrs and moved to Japan. Although he studied other arts there, he still practiced his forms, Well, he was so proud to tell me this upon his return, and then he showed me how much he didn't forget. (you see this comming a mile away, don'cha?) His form was atrocious! Sure he practiced every day, but without the constant minute corrections and subtle tune-ups by his Sifu, it slowly degenerated into this sad state."

If he studied multiple arts (of) while in Japan, his practice of your forms was significantly less. Also, without refreshing, through practice, or having practiced enough for it to have sunk-in, the other arts he studied there would have demanded different directions of principles or theories than your forms (power, speed, grouping of techniques, fluidity, timing, focus, strength, tension, suppleness... Their requirements might have bled into what he could barely remember of your forms from actual Lack of practice. Regardless of what he thought or what he told you.

If he did not study other arts there while practicing your forms, he could have recalled things you or other instructors said to improve what he was already doing. And thought of classmates and what looked right or not, that they did, might have also come to him. Making his forms possiblly even better than when he left if he reflected upon them.

[Ryu]

Don't quit...


Any good practitioner would practice his style always. Whether in the dojo or by himself. If you have had years in a style of martial art you're pretty safe in mastering the basics. And in the end it's the basics that are the most effective in real situations...
I left formal judo training with a brown belt, and have cross trained in BJJ, wrestling, and now practice a little MMA. That doesn't mean I am giving up judo. I spend hours a day doing set ins, pushups, weightlifting, randori with partners, etc. And I plan to once again resume my judo training when I move to Japan in the next coming years.

I don't think you ever really "quit" a style. Not going to a particular dojo or kwoon is not "quitting" the style... and neither is training in similar arts to compliment it.

Ryu

[HuangKaiVun]

Good questions, Dark Knight.

However, the answers depend entirely on one's point of view and self-perception.

I'll simply state that I feel that what I do works for me.

Also, nobody else does my sets (which I made for myself).

[dnc101]

travel however far you have to for formal instruction. I do this about once a month and work out with some of the local stylists here in the interim.