Best teaching in London? (any style)

[CottonQuan]

Hello all,
I'm beginning to think that I should look for a new school based not on the style but the best teaching available. Ideally it would be an internal art but I despair of finding any decent neijia teaching in London, so am open to all kinds of alternatives. Any advice gratefully received. Thanks.
[crossposted: Kung fu forum]

[PQS]

2 quick examples John Ding (yang) and zhong Ding (cmc) sorry one more Dan Docherty try tai chi finder they have a good selection of schools on their website
regards

[Repulsive Monkey]

It could be of interest to visit all of the above 3 mentioned as you will find that they are all quite differefnt from each other. There is a certain degree of similarity between Master Ding's school and the Zhong Ding school's as the Cheng Man Ching style is hewn from the the Yang tradition of Master Ding's school.
Master John Ding is legitimate as far as Taiji Master's are concerned. His credentials alone are very respestful.
Dan's school purports to be to traceable back to Chang San Feng (hence calling it Wutan Taiji), which is rubbish. It is closer to the truth just to say that is Taiji has a Wu/Chen lineage of sorts to it. Never the less he attracts many people for different reasons.

[Kaitain(UK)]

I train with John Ding so I'm biased :) - anyway, he's based in South Woodford

go to http://www.taichifinder.co.uk/ding/lineage.php

there are links to other stuff like class times etc - I think there is another club in Kensington that might be better for you (I have no clue where in London you are)

[Liokault]

Hey repulsive

"Dan's school purports to be to traceable back to Chang San Feng (hence calling it Wutan Taiji), which is rubbish. It is closer to the truth just to say that is Taiji has a Wu/Chen lineage of sorts to it. Never the less he attracts many people for different reasons."


Thats not true. Where did Dan start claiming that his style is from Chang san feng any more than any other tai chi teacher does? He traces the line back to CSF as it is traditional....... I think you will find more than once Dan has writen discounting the whole CSF myth.

As I have posted before I find Dans style to be great but for variouse reasons I dislike his regular classes but if you want a style of tai chi that really is a martial art and can actuly teach you to fight then track down one of his students who teach in london or send me a PM and I will send you some names.

P.S as of the weekend before last 2 students of Dans style of tai chi (training under one of Dans students) are British San Shou champions under the BCCMA.

[CottonQuan]

Thanks Kaitan, I'll check out John Ding's South Kensington class.

[northernJump]

I trained with John Ding for a couple of years and the quality of teaching and his depth of knowledge and skill are exceptional. I must admit I haven't seen the other two mentioned so I can't say how they compare.

Oh I think Micheal Tse's Chen style taiji is good also. go to http://www.qimagazine.com/setup.htm and choose Chen from skills taught selector

[CottonQuan]

Northernjump - thank you for that. Tse says he has studied with CXW, which is a good start...

[CottonQuan]

Originally posted by wujidude
You should also ask yourself what your seeking in your studies--health, spirituality or effective self-defense. They aren't mutually exclusive, but not all teachers are masters of all aspects. [/B]

Good question, wujidude. Well, in a neijia teacher of whatever type I want someone who has advanced jin skills and is willing to show them and help me along the right path to train them.

If that's not available in this corner of the world then I'd go for self-defence and health as about equal.
"Spirituality" I don't need, in neijia, waijia or anything else ;).

Cheers,
CQ

[Walter Joyce]

You may want to check out this website:

http://www.palmchange.com/

I haven't been there, but I know they are associated with Luo de Xiu, who I have worked with, and he is amazing.

Good training,
Walter

[CottonQuan]

Thanks Walter, but when I click on the palm to enter that site I just get a "file not found" message...

[northernJump]

the problem is most likely the browser you're using. For me it worked with ie6 and got the same error as you with netscape/mozilla. I think the site actually says "Works best in IE6"

[CottonQuan]

I guess the guy doesn't want any Mac users as students? ;)
But he comes recommended from Mike Sigman so I'll look him up some other way for sure...

[Crimson Phoenix]

I believe Ed Hines is now teaching here in Paris...

[Kaitain(UK)]

Whatever reasons Robert left for I'd say they were mostly related to Yang family politics. Anything he says about John now is based on his loyalty to Gin Soon Chu:

John turned down Gin Soon Chu's offer to be his disciple and instead went and became Ip Tai Tak's 1st disciple - clearly this would cause offence as Ip is the 1st disciple of the late Yang Sau Chung, whilst Chu is the 2nd. John also studied under Chu King Hung (3rd disciple) before going to Ip. Consequently he's not the most popular member of the family - I fully expect the **** to hit the fan when Ip passes away.

Ip is recognised in the family as the best 'applications' man in the family - that was who John wanted to train with. I personally have no problem with training with the best source you can find so I don't villify him for his actions.

I don't care about the politics - and I don't think it's relevant what an ex-student of John will say about him.

What I will say is John only shows what he wants to show - he follows the more traditional teaching methods. If he doesn't think you're ready to learn something, he doesn't show you it. That isn't everyone's cup of tea - some people believe that by paying for teaching you should be taught everything there is. That doesn't happen at John's clubs.

Anyway - have a look and see if you like it.

Incidentally - Robert Poyton is an advocate of Systema now - so he obviously never found what he was looking for in Taiji.Draw your own conclusions

[Internal Boxer]

Kaitain

Thats the problem with the Taiji community, the whole politics of it all it is very very sad, with people saying that others styles or teachers are cr.ap, and you should not do this or that part of IMA wether its comp. push hands or full contact figfhting or specific training methods, there are too many self opinionated people out there. It is all very childish.

Thats probably why Rob left all the B.S. of the taiji community behind him and looked for something without it, and since systema is only from one source then it cuts all the futile "I am right" culture out.

I hope the future of systema does not include splitting into fractions with each group claiming they are right. (No I do not practice systema, but I have been to workshops and it is a refreshing angle on IMA that stays true to what it is, plus you can incorporate the good stuff into your own training programme, as it trains skill not style.)

[Kaitain(UK)]

I agree that the politics are ridiculous - but some of Robert's articles have been continuing the same problems. Essentially 'my style is better than yours'. I appreciate it's a commercial thing but it's still disappointing. On the other hand I know what it's like when something excites you - a kind of born-again christian zeal.

I don't get involved with it - I just presented an objective picture of what I know about John Ding. I hope :)

I make a point of not training with instructors that bad mouth other schools/styles - it's a character trait that I'm still working at eradicating in myself, so I don't need it reinforced by my instructor.

I know that Rob was impatient with the amount he was being shown - I don't know if he fell out with John or just moved on. They're both happy with what they're doing now and neither of them have engaged in petty bickering. props to both of them.

[Walter Joyce]

Interesting info on Yang family politics. As a student of Gin Soon Chu and his son Fong, you caught my attention.
Regards,
Walter

[Liokault]

LOL Off topic I know but I have fought Ed Hines in san shou before!!! Is he really that good? Seams to have his head stuck up his own arse to me.

[CottonQuan]

Originally posted by wujidude

It's difficult to tell with "traditional" taijiquan--or other Chinese martial arts--teaching if the instructor withhold information because he doesn't consider the student ready--or if they just want to squeeze out a few more pounds sterling from the student before offering another tidbit. Or maybe they just don't know.

Yep, I've found this to be a real problem. Interesting info on John Ding, guys, though ideally if I were to do (more) taiji I'd want it to be Chen rather than Yang. But then a good Yang teacher beats a bogus Chen teacher any time...

CQ

[Liokault]

"Ed is no more of an anus-gazer than Dan Docherty (considerably less, I'd say). "

In no way can Ed be compaired to Dan in the anus-gazeing stakes. Dan is a master arse gazer.

But I think that it is also wrong to compair the 2 men as martial artists also....Dan is above Ed on every level.

Also I just do not find Ed to be a nice guy as much as that counts.

[Kaitain(UK)]

wujidude - I see what you're implying about lineage holders etc but I disagree. On the other hand I don't know so I won't fall into the trap of blind loyalty.

On the withholding for more money argument - all i can say is John turned a lot of people away who were offering a lot of money. I get the impression that the money side of things is relevant but not the sole reason. I don't know enough about Chinese culture to comment.

The fact that John doesn't engage in slagging off other styles and teachers raises him in my estimation - he's certainly received enough provocation.

Anyway - after a while this all gets a bit 'my dad's bigger than your dad'

John's a good teacher - have a look. If you don't like it go elsewhere - there's more than one good instructor in London.

[dezhen2001]

You're lucky (and also unlucky) that London has a wide range of MA teachers to choose form... the problem is picking the right one.

Personally i just wanted to put in a word for my Sigung Michael Tse :) I actually don't train in Taijiquan (Wing Chun and Qigong only), but have had the pleasure to meet Chen Tai Sigung... he's a very nice guy, with a lot of skill! I'm sure if you go along to the class you can watch and find out more, or call the (Qi magazine)office.

There are lots of other people out there as well, not just Taijiquan. Some others have been mentioned, John Ding, Dan Docherty etc. Have you thougt about Xingyiquan or Bagua as well? Luckily some people here are students in London, so can give u more information.

In the end it's up to you, but i would say it's well worth spending time looking for a good teacher :)

good luck with your training,
I'm sure you can find what you are looking for...


david

[bob10]

Well I'm new to this forum and just noticed my name being posted here a few times, mainly in regard to myself and John Ding. The reasons why I and several others left John Ding were not secret at the time, certainly not to those who spoke to us.
Of course I'm sure John will say something different.
As for JD being offered disicpleship to Gin Soon Chu and turning it down, that is not true, at least according to Vincent Chu.
I have no afifliations to anyone now in the TCC world, so that's not an issue either

As for being "impatient" with the speed of JD's teaching - well someone can't teach you what they don't know.

I know John Ding the man rather than John Ding the master.

I've no doubt people will "draw their own conlcusions" for my switch to another art (after 20 years training) - fine. However they could also just ask me ;-)

BTW to the original poster - it depends largely what you want from your training. Jim Uglow has excellent knowledge on application for example.

[bob10]

One other point:

Kaitain mentioned in another post:
"John Ding would not have moved from White Crane to Taiji if he didn't feel it was a valid system"

Just for the record John previously studied Shaolin (Tam Tui), Preying Mantis and Hsing I prior to his switch to Tai chi around 1979-1980.

Interesting that you apply a different rationale to his switch of arts than to mine ;-)

[Walter Joyce]

As a student of Gin Soon I can also verify that any claim that John Ding was offered and refused, a discipleship under Gin Soon is false.

Gin Soon has three official disciples, his two sons Vincent (Fong) and Gordon, and John Conroy.

I have also been told by a former student of John's who is currently a long time student of Gin Soon that any claims John makes as to offers to be a disciple other than with Ip Tai Tak should be taken with a grain of salt

Good training,
Walter

[bob10]

Kaitain - you state that your teacher doesn't indulge in petty bickering, and you are correct, he doesn't face to face. However you then go on to make a number of statements such as "Robert obviously this" or "Robert felt that". Some of these would arguably call into question my character.

What do you base these statements on? Have we ever met or spoken? Can you provide any evidence to back your claims?

Interestingly I met a charming lady recently, a long time student of John Ding. She had been accused of "speaking like Robert" as well as "training with Robert" at various times after asking some seemingly straightforward questions about her training. I'd never met the lady until a couple of weeks back. She was as bemused as me.

So am I some sort of "bogie-man" for your school? It seems odd that even now, a good 6 years after the event of myself and several other senior students leaving, that my name keeps cropping up in relation to your school. Personally I talk about it very little, except when I find, as I have on a couple of occasions, mud being thrown my way by JD students.

I'm happy to discuss any aspect of my time with JD on a factual basis. I have my opinions on character, but they are just that.

I'd be surprised to see this go any further, as the usual pattern seems to be pop up, slag Robert off, then pop down again until the next time.

So if you want to talk facts, let's talk facts. If you are stating opinion then make it clear - and tell us what your opinions are based on.

Regards
RP

[Kaitain(UK)]

"I'd be surprised to see this go any further, as the usual pattern seems to be pop up, slag Robert off, then pop down again until the next time. "

Not sure where you feel you were slagged off - you were held up as someone to speak to regarding John Ding from a negative perspective. I made the point that you stopped training with John and put forth the reasons I had heard - it's not like you're a major conversational topic (and nothing came from John personally - your name came up, I knew it from some of the articles I'd read in MAI, I looked around on the net and I asked some people about why you'd left)

"So if you want to talk facts, let's talk facts. If you are stating opinion then make it clear - and tell us what your opinions are based on. "

Quite clearly it's my opinion - my name is next to my posts. My opinions are based on your website, your articles and hearsay.

Yeah I was wrong about the White Crane stuff - I asked recently and was corrected. Goes to show the depth of my personal involvement with John - a tenuous argument might be to say that was an example of my objectivity :)

"Interesting that you apply a different rationale to his switch of arts than to mine ;-)" - not at all - he left because he felt he'd found something better. I don't know why you chose Systema - if it's for the same reason then that's great. However, when discussing the credibility of a Taiji instructor I question the relevance of someone's opinion who prefers another art (especially if they trained with them and then left). I don't ask John what he thinks of my Karate instructor.

Right - having cleared that up - I'd certainly be interested to hear facts:
1) what prompted you to leave John Ding's school?
2) what did you find in Systema that wasn't in Taiji?

I'll close with a few observations:
Someone asked for good Taiji schools in London
I offered John Ding's school as an option
Someone called John Ding into question on the basis of your opinions
I questioned the validity of your opinions based on what you're currently doing and what I'd heard (as you say this should have been made very clear - as should the fact that it wasn't from John himself)

I don't train at John's school - I have no great personal loyalty to him - as I stated elsewhere, I refuse to be blinded by it. I form my opinions based on a persons behaviour - I'm still very early in my Taiji training so I can't comment on what John does and doesn't know. He certainly knows enough for me at the moment - I hope you're incorrect about the longer term picture. I've certainly seen nothing to concern me at the moment.

I was extremely careful to avoid maligning you as a person - there was no mud-slinging. Obviously you've been on the receiving end elsewhere, but I'm not part of some cabal 'out to get you'.

If it's BS about the disciple stuff then I apologise - I can only put forward what I've been told. I think in future I shall add a large disclaimer at the end of my posts...

Last point - this is a debate where someone who doesn't really know you offered you as a voice against John - equally I put John forwards and I don't really know him. So I think myself and Wjuidude should keep talking and you should go give John a call :)

Thanks for listening

[bob10]

OK, to be fair it wasn't you who first brought my name up ;-)

Your point about aksing someone who has left the art - well I sort of agree but then again if that person has a lot of epxerience they may be able to offer some insight.
Sometimes, too, you can see things more clearly from outside a situation.

What prompted me to leave? OK, first off the 3 of us (myself and the other 2 senior guys) at the time had all felt the same things, (independently I might add)
- that the teaching had slowed down considerably
- that the fees were increasing considerably
- certain things didn't quite tie in factually with what we had heard from some other sources
- it seemed to us JD was becoming more interested in his status as a "master" than anything else
- the numerous demonstrations of "empty force" that would often take up a considerable part of the lessons
- the fact we were told not to get the mats out any more for application training
These were the main things that the three of us felt. In addition there were some other more personal matters between myself and JD that I don't feel it would be fair to comment on.
I think at the end of the day the elements of trust and respect had broken down. Without these it is very difficult to operate a student-teacher relationship, on both sides.
I would say that the things we found out after leaving, from other teachers, did nothing to make us feel we had made the wrong decision.

As far as Systema goes, what I found that wasn't in Taichi:
adaptability - it covers all ranges and type of combat, ground, multiple, situational, realistic weapons work, etc
- IME it is softer than TC and more pr
- while some apsects of power generation can be similar, it doens't rely on the same methods to generate power,which is suppose is back to adaptabiliy again
- no forms. The form is contained within your own posture. TC offered the prospect of form after form, big frame, medium, small, fast, etc as a method of progress. The novelty was wearing off :-)
- the energy work, though I will say I rate Vincent Chu's work highly in this field
- the fact that everything is explained / demonstrated clearly, there is none of this "you are not ready Grasshopper" approach which, to be honest, I don't feel is that traditional anyway
- the teachers. Men who have considerable combat experience under extreme conditions, yet who are at the same time very down to earth and humble.
- health and fitness, I feel stronger, fitter and healthier
- enjoyment. The atmosphere in class is a world away from before
- the spiritual aspect (though again I respect VC in this) is very evident in how the top guys conduct themselves
- the general atmosphere among the Systema guys is very friendly and supportive, unlike much of the TC world, where even within the same line you get a lot of bickering and *****iness

All I can add is if anyone gets the chance to train with Vladimir and co give it a try - you will find it very interesting I'm sure.

Phew!

OK, hope that's cleared the air a bit. Maybe I judged your actions against those of some other people, so I apologise for that, and credit to you for not being "blinded by loyalty"

Right, I'm off to rest my fingers and sink a cold beer ;-)

Cheers
R

[Kaitain(UK)]

thanks for the reply - it's nice to resolve things without resorting to insults :)

I'd be interested to speak to you on a couple of points but my preference would be via email - if you're amenable please drop me a line - invincibleyang@hotmail.com

cheers