Wing Chun Versus Taijiquan

[Grendel]

Last week a student brought around his friend who has studied Taijiquan for three years. He presented himself well for his relative inexperience. It was his first taste of Wing Chun.

Would anyone care to share their experiences vis-a-vis Wing Chun and Taji?

Regards,

[sticky fingers]

My mom 's been doing tai chi for only 6 months and she can still kick my arse:D

[TzuChan]

Tai chi, and taijiquan ain't the same though, from what I've read that is .

[Alpha Dog]

the latter is otherwise known as "the insanely happy fist" whereas the former is what people in Rosedale do for exercise.

actually, a taijiquan student came to a class i was in a long while back. he participated in chi sao and his taiji looked quite complementary to Wing Chun as practiced by us at the time. in other words, he had no problem and was quick to adapt to WC techniques.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Alpha Dog

actually, a taijiquan student came to a class i was in a long while back. he participated in chi sao and his taiji looked quite complementary to Wing Chun as practiced by us at the time. in other words, he had no problem and was quick to adapt to WC techniques.

I don't doubt that a Taijiquan person can learn WC.

I'm looking for thoughts on Wing Chun techniques and principles to apply against Taiji. Here are some of mine.

Taiji martial artists like to control the elbows, often from the outside and underneath. I would not give them this. Their hands, especially if they are inexperienced, tend to want to be in the same plane parallel to the ground.

There are some obvious counters to this for the Wing Chun stylist.
One is to split the hands with gaun sau, denying them the planar angle of attack---assuming they can't push with one hand. Another counter is simply running your hands to an outside fook sau on top of theirs when they come underneath.

We can take advantage of differences in our fighting ranges. One can visualize the Taiji person as having a "force field" extending about 3/4 of an arm's length from the person. To strike them, we can stay back out of that range and go over the top of their arms, avoiding their counters.

[Piquan Li]

Where are you?

I see very few WC women in the magazines. In my school over the years, no female ever stayed long enough, or got good enough, to get into the senior class.

Many males fell by the wayside as well. However, no female (counting at eight years) have exceled.

Whenever there is a demo, all males. Ads say the art was formulated by a woman (or women). What happened then?

If you are a WC woman please step forward. After eight years I'd like to know there are good female practitioners out there. If you are a master, better still.

I don't wish to offend. I merely want to know.

[anerlich]

Why you want to pursue the subject on this particular thread, I don't know, but:

My organisation at least has several female students that reached instructor level and beyond, and a regular and committed contingent in our senior class. We train hard and spar with contact.

My si-hing, Alfredo del-Brocco, and his wife Rachel, head up several successful WC schools in Queensland, AUS, with several hundred active students. Rachel won her division of the Australian Kung-fu championships 2 years running.

I feel that a strong female contingent makes for a more pleasant and enjoyable training environment on all sorts of levels.



Ads say the art was formulated by a woman (or women).

Ads and legend say that, rigorous historical research casts doubt on it.

In my school over the years, no female ever stayed long enough, or got good enough, to get into the senior class.
I guess I'd be asking myself why females feel your school does not seem to encourage them to stay, or what they are looking for that it doesn't provide. Like you, I do not wish to offend, I merely want to know.

[aelward]

Before I start, just want to say that Tai Chi and Taiji are different romanizations for the same characters, and the same family of martial arts.

Anyway, I learned some Taiji before taking up WC, and I always sucked at push hands. After learning WC, I often did "bridged" "play-sparring" with several taiji folks. In all but 1-2 of the cases, I did very well by WC standards (was able to hit, maintained structure, didn't get uprooted too badly). I found that they often try to feel for their opponent's arm tightening up, to create a link to their center of gravity; but since in our chi sao, we practice "unlinking" when we are pulled or pushed, they could had a hard time finding my center through my arms; plus, since we constantly practice protection of our bodies, they didn't get past my arms very often to do a body push. Of course, push hands and sticky hands are two completely different animals.

I do have to say that on one occasion, I went against this one master in Taipei; our hands were crossed, I used a pak sao to clear the bridge and attack, and he deftly turned out of the way and tapped me on the shoulder. I was dumped on my butt! So I have the utmost respect for the art.

Also, I have a si-hing who did WC for many years before taking up and later quitting Chen style Taiji; the practice really did improve his "listening" skills, and he is by far the best WC hands I have ever ever touched (among several hundreds of people from over a couple lineages).

[Alpha Dog]

Did you train with Lo Man Kam Sifu while in Taipei, and if so from when to when?

[aelward]

I was training with LMK in Taipei from September of 1995 to September of 1998. Write me at aelward@hotmail.com :)

[kj]

Originally posted by Piquan Li
Where are you?

What do you want to know? Is there some special relevance to this particular thread?

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Piquan Li]

You answered my question. Sorry, I didn't mean to take the thread off on a tangent.

[yuanfen]

Piquan Li sez:If you are a WC woman please step forward. After eight years I'd like to know there are good female practitioners out there. If you are a master, better still.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are some very good ones. KJ (a wc woman)can tell you about one in SF.
A couple in canada-big place!. A couple in Tucson.
Nancy Macdonald of Tucson began around 1973 - she is not doing as much wing chun in the last 2-3 years as she used to...
but she is very very good. She is my senior sister and she helped me a lot in getting started. She is great with weapons- wc weapons and taichi sword too- which she learned from
Bo Sim Mak. You wouldnt want to be hit by her. I was there when a tough macao guy- a full contact guy tried to bully her ina chi sao exchange. She gave hima bloody nose. She is not particularly proud of that-it just came naturally. She cleaned up in women's open martial arts competitions as well in the southwest in the late 70s and early 80s.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by S.Teebas


Come and check out the school where i train. My Sifu is female and skill level is very high.


OK, but do you have something to say on the subject of dealing with Taiji? How would your sifu deal with Taiji? :)

Regards,

[fa_jing]

I've sparred a TaiJi guy. I think you just need to do what you do better than the other guy does what he does. WC has good footwork and tactics, so the Tai Ji opponent won't be at a particular advantage against our style. The only advice I might offer is don't chase his hands, throw lots of quick punches and don't make large movements that he can take advantage of.

-FJ

[Repulsive Monkey]

My advice is if you want to beat a Taiji player then your sticking energy has to be deeper than theirs. If you're listening skills are good then you have total control of the situation, and that counts for any other style too. Of course this is alo accepting the fact that that you have something to issue once you have found the right time to strike.

[Nat from UK]

I have played push hands/chi sau with a Yang Stylist, who has been training about 6 years. Very soft bridges that were quite yielding with a fantastic stance.

At a slowed tempo he dominated me, especially structurally, however when we upped the tempo and I used footwork he wasn't familiar with (he only seems to push hands with 1 or 2 steps if any at all) i started to dominate.

He would be the first to admit that his Tai Chi is not the best in world and his school places little importance in the martial aspects of their art. Having said that my WC is of no real standing either :)

Having said that I spent 4 weeks training for 10 hours a day with a Chen player, who was the local province's San Shou champion. He could hit like a train from crazy angles and dump me on my a r s e almost at will. I feel great shame that he may of judged Wing Chun Chi Sau on my pitifully outclassed attempts at Push hands with him. However it was a very quick lesson in the effectiveness of Tai Chi.

Nat from UK

[Piquan Li]

There is a local WC school in my town. They train pretty hard. One of the students used to come by to test his skills at the taiji school.

Wing Chun courage at its best.

He didn't fair too well. But it was refreshing to see someone willing to test what they learned. Ironically, he was attacked down the center. I don't blame WC. He just needed more good practice.

Strong straight thrusting palms did him in. They shouldn't have, but they did.

Also, I am glad to hear there are very good female WC artists out there. I meant no disrespect, it's just that I have not seen any. I used to say how WC is great for females, but there were no female role models that I could refer them to.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Piquan Li
There is a local WC school in my town. They train pretty hard. One of the students used to come by to test his skills at the taiji school.

Wing Chun courage at its best.

I agree. He showed good spirit. Courage is a good thing. :)


He didn't fair too well. But it was refreshing to see someone willing to test what they learned. Ironically, he was attacked down the center. I don't blame WC. He just needed more good practice.
Good Taiji is formidable. The more experienced Taiji martial artist should be able to handle a Wing Chun beginner.


Strong straight thrusting palms did him in. They shouldn't have, but they did..
It's clear he needed more practice, then. :)



Also, I am glad to hear there are very good female WC artists out there. I meant no disrespect, it's just that I have not seen any. I used to say how WC is great for females, but there were no female role models that I could refer them to.
More than some---quite a few. I'd like to recommend reading the biography of Sandy Wong. Just tall enough to look straight at my breastbone, she can push my 220 pounds around like few men can and block all my strikes while doing it. Read her bio at
http://www.bawcsa.org/

Regards,

[RevTemerity]

Originally posted by Grendel

Good Taiji is formidable. The more experienced Taiji martial artist should be able to handle a Wing Chun beginner.


I've worked out with some Chen people and the over-riding experiences I got were:

a) When applying energy to them, they seemed to withdraw or disappear, but they were, in fact, coiling (my term, not theirs). If I didn't fill that void with my structure, I found myself over extended and then they owned the encounter.

b) In each and every case, I found them easy to work out with, and we both learned things about what we each knew about our own respective arts, along with gaining some new found appreciation for what the other was doing.

c) They adapted to Chi Sao very, very rapidly, as if, it was functionally no different than, say, Push Hands. Maybe it was I who adjusted. It was just a natural fit (which surprised me).

[Repulsive Monkey]

An experienced Taiji practioner should be able to do well against a Wing Chung player. The fact is is that a good practioner of Taiji sholud be able to do well against a good WC practioner. Why the imbalance do you really feel that one art out does the other??????

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Repulsive Monkey
An experienced Taiji practioner should be able to do well against a Wing Chung player. The fact is is that a good practioner of Taiji sholud be able to do well against a good WC practioner. Why the imbalance do you really feel that one art out does the other??????
I'm not sure what you're asking, but if it's do I believe that one art is superior to the other as a fighting art, then yes, Wing Chun is superior because it is more direct and without ineffiecient wide flourishes. However, this said, the very best Taiji can be quite effective. One other positive about Wing Chun is that anyone can learn to be dangerous within a relatively short time, while Taiji takes much more devotion from what I've seen and heard, and some people seem never to "get it."

Regards,

[TjD]

a lot of people never "get" wing chun :)

[yuanfen]

Repulsive Monkey asks-The fact is is that a good practioner of Taiji sholud be able to do well against a good WC practioner. Why the imbalance do you really feel that one art out does the other??????
------------------------------------------------------------------
I have seen first class taiji and I have nothing but respect for it.
But more taiji people compared to wing chun folks dont know the
applications of what they do. You dont underestimate any one who has devoted much time and close attention to any good martial art BUT...wing chun "geometry" and mobility and fighting applications are richer than taiji all -other things being equal IMO.
Otherwise I would have and could have opted for taiji. Good wing chun has too many empty hand weapons.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by TjD
a lot of people never "get" wing chun :)
It's my Wing Chun goal to leave no student behind. :)

[TjD]

haha very nice ;) but stlil... some people it takes 2 years, some it may take 20

i think taiji is the same

some of it depends on how good and how patient the teacher is, but a lot of it just relies on the person and how much they work

[Grendel]

Originally posted by TjD
haha very nice ;) but stlil... some people it takes 2 years, some it may take 20

i think taiji is the same

some of it depends on how good and how patient the teacher is, but a lot of it just relies on the person and how much they work
You're right. I'm lucky to have a good Wing Chun teacher, but there seem to be so many teaching Taiji that not all are qualified. Of course, in other areas, the problem may be the reverse. :)

I'm not down on Taiji. I think it's a great art and if I couldn't find a good Wing Chun teacher, I'd be happy to study from a good Taiji teacher, that is, it'd be my second choice. :)

[Nat from UK]

My Yang stylist friend has had many problems finding a school/teacher that even understands the martial applications of tai chi and how to apply them in combat. The schools are much more "Chinese Yoga" to quote from their adverts.

Having said that their are some Wing Chun schools that I know of where the teacher should not be teaching, and the "developments" he is teaching are a joke.

I think there is good and bad in every style, both for combat efficiencies, being able to apply those efficiencies, teachers and students. It always seems to come down to individuals, not styles.

Nat from UK

[yuanfen]

Teaching well and getting good(listening, practicing etc) students
--both are challenges and not very common in the martial arts and for that matter many other serious fields as well. Lots of bad math teachers have turned off people in learning math-missing the inner beauty of the field.

[Repulsive Monkey]

Obviously I will opinionate my bias now by saying that is is silly to ultimately place Wing Chung as superior to Taiji. I regularly spar with 4 friends of mine who practice Wing Chun (not all at once!) and none of them get past me. One of them has been doing Wing Chung for 13 years and has travelled to Taiwan and China and studied by invitation only with some astute Masters. However my experiences tell me that sticking energy in Wing Chung is inferior to the internal arts. I have seen them fight with each other but (and I am not boasting, honestly!) but none of them have beaten me. I have also met some of their friends from around the country from others schools and I have to say Wing Chung is definitely a lot slower than Taiji.
I'm not slating Wing Chung I'm just talking from experiences, and yes just because i've come up against a few guys doesn't mean that I have overcome the whole art, far from it. However from a fighting point of view I can see quite clearly that Taiji is more effective.
IF LEARNT CORRECTLY I might add!!

[yuanfen]

You are entitled to your opinion Repulsive Monkey.
All depends on what and who you run into.
My opinion is exactly the opposite of yours and also
based on observations and experience. We may be playing in different fields. I respect good taji folks- but there is no question that wing chun is the more complete art.

[dre_doggX]

I dont really know , I like Chen Tai ji better because you can use the simple movements it attacking, but Wing CHuns footwork is also nice to....I like Chen Tai Ji in the other aspects, tough.

but Wingchun can be taught easier.

[yuanfen]

A mini cafeteria of sorts...

[Repulsive Monkey]

I take it you know precious little of Taiji then? I've never heard such rubbish in all my life. I had respect for Wing Chung, but if you are a product of good Wing Chung teachings then my estimation of it, and its ego, has plumeted.

Ignorance pervades!

[yuanfen]

Repulsive monkey says: I take it you know precious little of Taiji then?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
How do you know what I know of taiji? Presumptuous IMO.. If I "thought" that taiji was the more complete art for my purposes,
I would be foolish to spend so much time on wing chun. We are talking about judgements about arts and informed opinions in arriving at those judgements. It takes longer in taiji to develop
short power and close quarters work. If you like taiji better- no problem. Good luck to you. Cordially-yuanfen
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
dre_doggX--if as you say you like taiji better what are you doing on a wing chun list?
I like wing chun better--- but it would be pointless for me to go to the taichi forum and flaunt my opinion wouldnt it? Would be a bit of trolling too. Cordially, yuanfen

[rogue]

I respect good taji folks- but there is no question that wing chun is the more complete art. Since I know very little about either one Yuanfen, in what way?

[yuanfen]

Rogue- I wrote a fairly comprehensive reply but KFO gremlins ate it up when I lost my server connection temporarily. So I will be brief in the second round--- many more weapons(empty handed), short power, close quarters work. versatility in different conditions, footwork, faster learning curve....
But I respect top quality taiji and- know it when I see it.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Repulsive Monkey
I take it you know precious little of Taiji then? I've never heard such rubbish in all my life. I had respect for Wing Chung, but if you are a product of good Wing Chung teachings then my estimation of it, and its ego, has plumeted.

Ignorance pervades!
It does and you're not alone in it. We have a saying that "Taiji is for Wing Chun wannabees."

[rogue]

Yuanfen,
If you get the time and inspiration to elaborate on WCvsTC for short power, close quarters work, versatility in different conditions, and footwork I'd appreciate it. I've been attending a short form group during lunch for about 4 weeks, so I'm real new to it and know just about zero. But from doing push hands and working out with some of the senior guys I was pretty impressed with their work in those areas. Never having gotten very far with WC I don't have a reference to compare so I'd be grateful for any insights into the subject.

[yuanfen]

Rogue- I did write out some comments on the fairly long post I had keyed in. then I pressed the back button on the KFO page...
apparently I lost the server connection psossibly...POOF- the post disappeared into cyberspace. I may try to put up a follow up post later, but some more comments follow.. The taichi trollers didnt understand that I rsepect first class taiji- but the average or even above average taiji guy talks a good talk but cant do it under stress conditions. Of course they can blast you if you stand thgere and let them.The 10 years
(66-76) of the cultural revo;ution was devastating and it affected even Chen syle masters and their practice before the restoration.
Ip man wing chun emigrated to Hong kong and escaped both the
sports overlay of Chinese wushu as well as the cultural revolution- even Chen style developed timed 2 minute(?)routines for competition though the martial core in Chen village remained.Nothing
but respect for Masters Feng and CXW and his "classmates". Top flight wing chun and some of the Hakka arts (jook lum in HK)escaped the politics. Good taichi has great timing with different kinds of push hands. But push hands results in sending people flying. People can recover their structure when pushed out.Wing Chun when well done can do that too. Very good taichi people can fajing from various positions of touch - wing chun can do that too. But wing chun follow up in reacting ro the other guys reactions in pursuing to the finish IMO is not so easy to match-
making each action count. Good wing chun is a pit bull of an art-
if a gate is open and you go in- you visit for a while.
yuanfen

[rogue]

Thanks for the reply Yuanfen.

"But push hands results in sending people flying."
I used to think that was BS until 3 weeks ago, go figure.:)

"People can recover their structure when pushed out."
I agree, though one person that's teaching me tends to go for controls, takedowns and short strikes that come from where I least expected them rather than the flinging into space.

"Wing Chun when well done can do that too."
I don't think I've seen that yet in the WC I've watched or the guys I sparred with, but I wasn't looking for it and I probably wouldn't have recognized it if I did. I'll have to watch closer next time. About when does it start to get taught? Have you noticed a lot of WC schools that don't teach it?

[yuanfen]

Rogue asks:Have you noticed a lot of WC schools that don't teach it?
-----------------------------
Rogue- lots of martial arts are unevenly taught-wing chun included. I dont judge the depth of taichi by seeing group recreation taichi in many parks and I dont judge yoga's energy and focus building capacity by seeing some instructors in YMCA-s.

[rogue]

Whoops, didn't mean that question to come off like that but point taken. Like I said, I probably wouldn't have recognized it anyway if it was there?:)

[bob10]

I'd say that in some aspects they are very similar - close range, sensitivity training, dominate the opponents centre line, sticking.

However I think the taiji advantage would be better root connection and stronger power. Fa-jing is not just to push, that is a training method.
WC advantage would be speed of attack, but if that is interecepted I think that would be negated.

Both styles have similar weaknesses too, no ground, comparitive lack of mobility and pretty much designed for one on one.

[yuanfen]

bob1o. Thanks for your reply. I know that fajing and push are different things. Regarding your comments on mobility and ability on handling oneself when down depends on what wing chun you may have seen. The Chinese arts began with grappling and its not too far away in the kung fu cocoons IMO. Rooting is important but not an absolute- needs to be blended with mobility- good wing chun does that IMO.
Wing chun has explosive power capacity from any angle- depends on teaching and learning. Good martial arts will have varying awareness of the center line. i would be interested in your analysis of it in a taichi perspective.

[bob10]

I agree with regards to rooting and mobility and think that it is at once the strength and weakness of taiij.
As far as centre line goes, taiji mainly seeks to control it through taking the oppoennets gravity. With the stance disrupted it is difficult for most people to generate any real power. This can be worked through controlling the elbows or by leading.
I've had experience of a few WC guys and I've not felt the same power, though that may be down to them. I found their mobility was ok when stiicking to one person close in, but not so good from longer range.

cheers

[yuanfen]

All depends on who you run into. Good wing chun is applicable at any range and gravity is a well respected force in good wing chun as well.