hitting someone in the neck, is it deadly ??

[TzuChan]

I just saw a movie with Jet Li, he hit like this really big black guy in the neck, on the side, it seems to me an excellent way to take out someone who you can't hit on his torso cause he's way stronger then you (physically). But can it kill someone ? Or will the worst scenario be that he get's KO ? I do mean ON THE SIDE, not like KAZAM right in his troath or something

[SSgungfu]

There is a nerve that runs down the right side of the neck (my right) that, if you hit it with the proper technique can cause unconciousness or maybe death if applied right. Trying to think of the name of it but it eludes me...Triple warmer? bah i dont know.

Your best bet would be to buy a book on TCM and check it out. Most of the nerve strikes you see are also the same points used in acupuncture. Yang/Yin

[SevenStar]

there is the windpipe, which can kill if struck hard enough. There is also the corrated atery, which is what is constricted when you choke someone. you're not only cutting off the air supply, you are cutting off the bloodflow. I'd imagine it could kill, if struck hard enough, but that would have to take a very hard blow.

[TzuChan]

****ed, I'm looking for a good spot, not the nuts, to hit a really big man, and hurt him bad, but not kill, don't wanne end up in jail :/ Just IN CASE I get attacked by a giant or something ya know ..

[Black Jack]

The throat is a good target zone which can not be built up like other vital spots can. The results from a well-focused blow to the front or side can have multiple effects and results.

Contusions of Carotid, Jugular and Vertbratal Vein, Contusions of Vegas or Phrenic Nerve, Cartilage Fracture, Frature of the Spinous Process, Hematoman in the Carotid Sheath.

Rupturing of the internal jugular vein from striking it against the hard service of the cervical certebra would result in a fast death due to a massive hemorrhage. Severe contusion of the Carotid can produce a restiction in blood flow which could end in blood clots which could lead to the brain at a later date.

The Vagus nerve deals with the important functions of heart contraction and lung constriction which if attacked can lead to serious complications besides just ko's. The Phrenic nerve when injured can provide the same feeling that one gets when the wind has been knocked out of them. If the Hypoglossal nerve is damaged the tongue could lose control and sufocation can happen if swallowed. Death by strangulation will follow if a hematoma in the sheath occurs that ecompasses the internal jugular, carotid and vagus nerve in the neck, if the tear does not deal itself immediatley the hematoma will grow larger with each pulsation of the heart and start pressing against the trachea until it has compressed it enough to stimulate the laryngeal nerves to close off.

That used to be a common occurance when police used the now outlawed two-handed "billy club" choke on the criminals trachea.

The cops would find the guy dead of strangulation or suffocation in his cell hours after the incident.

[SevenStar]

The drawback in your reasoning is that you can't rely on those points "just in case you get attacked by a giant" it's extremely hard to hit such precise points on a moving, resisting target. These are referred as low % techniques, because you can't count on them all the time.

[Black Jack]

Sevenstar,

I agree, fine manipulation and precise pressure point strikes are not going to be easy shots in the stress of a brutal street attack. IMHO that is why in unarmed combat you should think in "general" target terms, front of neck, side of neck, back of neck.

Trying to pinpoint a carotid shutdown is a waste of time, you won't be thinking of that, you should just be busy hitting, just hit the throat with all you have and keep hitting, it does not take much to drop somebody with a determined attack on the throat, one shot is often enough to carry a lot of rewards.

Though it is good to know some basics about the areas you are hitting for a deeper look into its effects, this does not mean dim mak, you can find all you need with actual documented and supportable data in modern sports medicine and athletic injury reports.

[TzuChan]

Hey don't think I wanne do accupuncture dude ;)
Like Black jack said, I just focus on the big part, but now you guys are telling me where it hurts and kills lol, let me repeat : I don't want to kill :) I think it's not up to me to decide wheter he should live or die, if I get attacked it could be that the dude takes me as his very first victim cause he had a bad day at work, so no reason to kill someone for that, just some nice badass spots to hit them really muscled dudes is what i was looking for, but not killing

[Former castleva]

I don´t believe a bigger person has much more protection than skinny one.
I´ll give you a simple version of this strike,which I prefer.
Strike to side of neck/jugular vein/carotid artery:
jugular vein can be found from side of neck under big muscle that runs on it.As it is a vital vessel which sends blood to brain and out from there it has a meaning.
If either one of them is attacked,and if it is hit with proper force,it can cut off the blood flow and cause person to pass out,can also lead to death with little effort after a small amount of time.
It is a dangerous and effective strike,it´s just that it is hard to hit,but it has it´s place.Best way to strike it is knifehand/swordhand/tegatana.Palm can also be used.
There are other ways to use this area,like strangulation or even plain pushing,but this is a good way.
I´ll give you one example of it in motion:
Opponent grabs you with both of his hands from the front=two handed chest grab.
You strike both of his jugular vein´s with knifehands with "from outside in" motion.
This is karate technique.

I hope this helps.

:)

[TzuChan]

It helps it helps, but what are the odds that you would kill him if you use knifehand and smack full power in the side of the neck (that's kinda what i need to know) cause like you said, that hit works on everybody, small, tall, big, skinny, black, white, orange .. :)

[Merryprankster]

****-poor, bad, crappy, unlikely, etc.

Killing blows are rare...EXTREMELY rare. So rare that relying on some killing blow is likely just to get your ass stomped.

[TzuChan]

ok, so you're saying that if you would be threatened and you'd think of hitting him in the neck, you'd do it ?

[Former castleva]

I agree with Merry that counting on something precious single tactic or tech. may not be safe.
Tzu,
That,I believe,is a great question,it is good to question things at times.
Yes,it is quite hard to say "I know this works for sure" for there are different kind of influences.One can´t count on it,but if the odds are that you do it correctly,it might turn out the way that is "enough".
There are attacks that are likely to do serious harm,even death.
Then there are those attacks that may cause less,even though that less would be good,but could also cause serious harm,even...
Be careful if you practice this kind of things,so they won´t blow at your face,or some another.There will be other manners too.

:)

[Merryprankster]

No, I'm saying I'd use other tools in my toolbox before I went to a "throat strike."

It's not a big target, unless you've immobilized a guy, it's not easy to hit, and, quite frankly, I've sparred people 4 inches taller than me, and it's hard to reach, even on them...

[Former castleva]

Thanks for correcting.
That makes sense as well.

[LEGEND]

You can KO a person with a forearm strike to the side of the neck...on MAXIMUM EXPOSURE...there was an episode where a BB karate guy fought a pimp and KO the be guy with that strike. The pimp dropped like a sack of grapes.

[omegapoint]

If caught in a clinch, especially if your opponent underhooks you, you can strike either carotid artery with even your thumb and the resulting force can lead to L.O.C. (loss of consciousness). Carotid massages are performed by ER docs and Cardiologists to effect the heart rhythm. The Carotids carry a large supply of oxygenated blood to the brain. If you produce a significant lesion, bruise or hematoma, the clotted blood may break off and flow to the brain where it will eventually lodge in a vessel creating a CVA (stroke). Another possibilty may be dissection of the artery and death.

Messing with the neck is dangerous, but extremely effective especially if you are grappling. I learned this from my sensei when we both were caught in a clinch and he let loose with a thumb to the neck. He didn't do it hard enough to cause even a bruise, but let me tell you I let go real quick. I've seen guys that didn't believe, sleep real fast when they tested my instructors teachings about the effectiveness of such techs.

Breaking someones nose is a much safer way of getting your point across. You don't really want to kill anyone unless that is their intent towards you.

Another option is to use a spinning elbow to the back of the head, just below the occiput. KO (and temporary blindness) baby! Another is to strike the back of the neck with a good knifehand as the aggressor is passing you. Hit yourself there, softly, and feel the shock that travels down your spine. Messing with the brain stem is very risky, so be careful, and only use techs like this if it's life or death.

These techs aren't hard to perform especially against the uninitiated. It just takes some practice and some body hardening. Peace....

[Former castleva]

omegapoint,
good post.
Those are decent target areas too.
I´ll just add my points to avoid confusion.
Knifehand to back of neck-Possible unconciousnes.
Muscles of back of neck are directly related to brain,attacking these areas may cause opponent to pass out.
Not to mention neck injury.
Palm/elbow or related to back of head:
unconciousnes,loss of memory,death.

[old jong]

Hitting that area(2/3 back of the neck)hard enough can create a stunning effect. It sends a signal to the brain as if the guy was doing an heart attack! the brain,to protect the heart, lower the blood pressure and this produce uncounciousness.It is as simple as that!
Now,how can you turn this "low percentage" thing into a high one?...Train it untill it is hard and precise.Use a chop as it is usually more "penetrative" or a pheonix eye depending on the angle of the shot.
It is harder to do with gloves on and this is the main reason MMA guys don't believe in it.

[Merryprankster]

old jong,

have you ever worn a pair of MMA gloves? What you describe would work fine in them :)

[old jong]

I believe that they are not as dispersing as boxing gloves but still they will not allow for the kind of penetrative focus needed for these kind of strikes. You still need a lot more power in your blows to be effective with them on as opposed to a small and hard hitting surface.
But I think somebody could train to deliver good iron palm type of power with them on.
Have you ever felt the ton of bricks a trained guy can deliver?...I did! :)

[Merryprankster]

Nope, but I'm willing to bet it would be fine as well.

[old jong]

I guess so. Anyway,as in anything else,you need proper opportunity,timing,position and everything else! This ask for very serious training not to be view as some "self-defense" trick or "anti-grappling technique"!...

[Merryprankster]

No no--I meant I bet the iron palm would be fine with MMA Gloves!!!

[old jong]

Oups!...communication glitch!:eek:... ;) Hey Merry,you know you are one of the few in BJJ/grappling who does not say that things like "iron palm" = bogus! I respect you for that.:cool:

[Merryprankster]

It's just another name for a technique.
Mata Leon translates as lion killer.

No sillier than iron palm.

[old jong]

Mata leo= Rear naked choke?....It is colorful and it says it well. :cool:

[Merryprankster]

Yup.

What happens is that somebody tells a story about the iron palm of master Chiu Da Faat, and all of a sudden he's punching holes in peoples chest using half power.

That's the kinda crap I don't believe in.

[old jong]

These kinds of exagerations are doing a great deal of damage to the serious kung fu that exist out there. Iron palm makes the hand very heavy on the recieving end if I can say!...the power comes from endless practice and relaxation. This deals more to joint power than muscle like say a bullwhip who is relaxed on his way to the target and gets hard as iron at the end. Nothing magical there.If visualising your hand in a steel glove or chi continuing through the target helps...Why not?...But I believe it is not essential for results. Doing it is enough.

[guohuen]

"the pimp dropped like a sack of grapes"
GOOD!!!

[old jong]

Maybe my mastery of English and it,s nuances is too limited but,what did you mean by this?...:confused:

[AdrianUK]

Well

Lay off the neck, the real muscular guys I had trained with had no neck worth hitting ! Palm to point of the jaw or tip of the nose, from the sides cupped hand over the ear or back of the jaw. If hes real tall, groin or solar plex. Avoid the stomach go lower. Other than that be aware and avoid trouble !

Respect

[Helicopter]

My personal fave is a panther punch to the upper lip. Non life-threatening and hurts like bejeezus! (so painful it can cause the pressure-drop/fainting reaction.) It gives you time to do something else (like run away). {ooh! and the eagle claw to the collar bone I like that one too! :) :) }

On the topic of necks I've been told a sleeper-hold takes approx. 8 seconds for the opponent to loose conciousness but if you hold to 10 seconds the chance of causing brain damage becomes very likely. This makes me very cautious about sleeping someone out.

I guess you BJJ/grappling guys must use this technique alot, what do you feel about it?


jpcm

[guohuen]

I was quoting from LEGEND's post. I don't like pimps. Even pretend ones.

[Merryprankster]

You've been told wrong. Another myth.

Chokes typically do NOT cause brain damage unless they are left on far too long. 10 seconds after unconciousness is not going to cause brain damage. Now, start pushing a minute, and I'd probably start to worry.

[Helicopter]

Hi MerryP,
Just spoke to my partner (PhD neuropsycologist) and we're both right, kind of :). Apparently the magical figure is 3 minutes where there is a definate high chance of measurable irreversable brain damage. However Neurons are particularly senstive to oxygen starvation and any lack of oxygen will cause damage, though not nessarily noticable.

jpcm

[Merryprankster]

Helicopter--yeah, that's kind of what I was getting at--I mean, everytime you have a beer, you kill some brain cells... but not so's you'd notice. :)

[Helicopter]

Yes, that is why I don't drink any alcoholic beverages...never..
...ever..

I've heard it's bad for the memory too.

jpcm

[sticky fingers]

Tzuchan

You are a WT practitioner. My favorite neck tech is the faak sau. Easy to pull off, large margin of error and an extremely damaging technique. It is different to the knife hand in that it's got your whole bodyweight behind the strike. Easily crush a windpipe without having to use much strength if you use it front on so be careful. Only disadvantage is that you have to be very close to your opponent.

Even a simple lap-da to the side of the neck is enough to take anyone out. No fancy technique required. My sifu demonstrated this on me. Instead of punching to my face with a lap-da, he tapped me lightly on the side of my neck. I felt a jolt shooting up to my brain like it was gonna explode. No phoenix eye fists, pressure points or specific target. Just a plain ol' vertical fist to the side of the neck.

[truewrestler]

If it were a deadly technique then people would be dieing left and right in kickboxing events

a hockey goalie did get hit with a puck and almost died.... he is playing now though after recovering

[sticky fingers]

truewrestler - not true

Kickboxers do not try to kill each other in the ring. it is a SPORT
What Muay Thai/ kickboxing schools do you know that advocates striking the neck during ringfights?

I'm glad for the goalie, he was a lucky guy.

[Tristan]

When your oponent falls with his head on the edge of the sidewalk, it may be deadly.
Although a good strike to the nek (fak sao, chumsao) could cause a lot of damage.

I believe people don´t die that easily.

T.

[Former castleva]

It has been said that a "light tap" to carotid can cause opponent to pass out,a good strike to area has the change of damaging the artery causing...................