How far do we take relaxation?

[S.Teebas]

The fundamental ideas of WC are to relax to perform a myriad of things. Eg, conservation of energy, cohesive mass (related to power etc.) Allow greater range of movement in your body, etc.
But how far do you carry this concept?

Take for example a simple sinario of being hit in the stomach. Now, of course we want to deflect and hit Mr Opponent. And in an idealistic world we aren’t going to get hit because we SHOULD have the ability to take care of ourselves. But even if you do get into a fight you are going to get hit.

So...what do you do when u get hit in the guts?

Total body relaxation... this includes the stomach doesn't it? Usually when you get hit while not tense you’re going to be winded. Do you tense or what?

I know karateka and kickboxers (+ more i'm sure) work heavily on the abbs, and u can hit them there a 1000 times and they don’t even flinch. So, do you defy the WC concept of relaxation?. Or is there a way to keep relaxed and protected?

Does this tension sacrifice some greater good, eg your structure, ability to stay upright?...or will you juts hit the floor if you don’t tense up anyway?

What are your thoughts?

[anerlich]

It isn't necessary to be tense to absorb blows. If you tighten up, and particularly hold your breath, your internal organs all get held in place like sitting ducks and take the full force of the strike. If you relax, it allows your body to move with and around the blow and dissipate the force over a greater distance. If you exhale completely when or before you cop the shot, you are unlikely to get winded.

Some as falling, you exhale and roll with it, not tense up and try to stop it. Like the drunk guy surviving the accident. Boxers learn to "roll" with and "shed", the punches.

In Russian Martial Arts, the trainees learn to "absorb" blows like this in an incremental fashion before they learn to give them back. I've personally witnessed Scott Sonnon, the Head trainer of AMERROSS, take several time UFC competitor Elvis Sinosic's best punch to the gut comfortably. And Elvis won a number of his elimination fights by KO, though he's probably better known as a BJJ stylist. We spent about half an hour of the seminar hitting each other in the gut with punches, front and roundhouse kicks, and IMO the methodology is demonstrably valid.

You could check out some of the material on www.amerross.com, esp. Shockability, if you wanted to find out more. It's interesting sh!t.

Strong stomach muscles allow you to recover from and absorb more punishment, as well as many other benefits for fighting. Jesus, look at the quote under my screen name, I do LOTS of ab work. But trying to make them into "armourplate" is IMHO not the way to go.

WC talks about "bean curd" body or cotton body. Absorb those shots like your body is a cotton pillow (The bean curd analogy doesn't work, but I hate soy products anyway).

Q for you - if those boxers and kickboxers are so tough, why aren't you/we as well, if we're allegedly doing the baddest MA on the planet?

[TzuChan]

It is plain insane to let someone punch you in the stomache without tensing up your muscles you got there, I got hit and hit a few in a spar in the stomache, while not expecting it, god****, one of the most painfull things in my life, you get hit in it, you can't even stand straight anymore, felt like I was gonne crap out my intestins.. You SHOULD tense up them muscles, but not stand put, when you get hit try to move backward a bit, not really step, cause if he hits you it's too late, but move along with the punch, BUT DO NOT Let him hit you in the stomache thinking you're all relax lol

[S.Teebas]

I got hit and hit a few in a spar in the stomache, while not expecting it, god****, one of the most painfull things in my life,

What about if you are expecting it?

[TzuChan]

If you expect it, tense up those muscles, and go with the blow, but if you don't tense things up and he hits you at full force, **** bro, feels like hell ..

[Alpha Dog]

your abs in their relaxed state will be tight without your having to forcably tense them. tighter, anyway.

[dbulmer]

I'm with Anerlich here. If I tensed up I'd be worried about my insides - a bit like blowing up a paper bag and then popping it.

[hunt1]

Anerlich is 100% right.Do not tense.The secret is train to exhale at any contact with your ab/body area.This is something I stumbled upon playing football.Long before I found WC.

[anerlich]

hunt1, dbulmer and Alpha are correct.

TzuChan is incorrect.

[S.Teebas]

Q for you - if those boxers and kickboxers are so tough, why aren't you/we as well, if we're allegedly doing the baddest MA on the planet?

Well i think this is beacuse kickboxers and boxers train to actually fight. MOST wing chun guys dont (to become good at chi-sau only??). I personally like to make everything i learn useable.

[anerlich]

Teebas,

good answer, I agree.

[Rill]

Q for you - if those boxers and kickboxers are so tough, why aren't you/we as well, if we're allegedly doing the baddest MA on the planet?

Because I'd much rather spend my training time practicing not to get hit than go out and kick telegraph poles like the local go ju ryu karate boys do.

How do you toughen yourself up to get hit in the head?

[fa_jing]

The trick is to *lightly* tense the muscles. Normally this is accomplished naturally along with your exhale, if you are breathing correctly. We actually train "stomach taps" like boxers do, it's a drill where you take turns hitting to the other guy's body, lots of variations such as target area, does the other guy block/move/bob, etc. It's all based on how your partner responds, if he tells you to go lighter, you go lighter, if he tells you to hit harder, you hit harder. I think if you tense your abs too hard, it is bad for a lot of reasons. Messes up your breathing, your fluidity, your responsivenes. Most of all, I think the hit will actually hurt more - you'd be trying to stop the shot dead in it's tracks, while with the correct amount of light tension, you can absorb as you give a little - the shot is allowed to penetrate slightly, dispersing it's energy over a tiny but significant range of movement, rather than all at once upon impact.

One other tip for taking body shots - again from boxing, the "roll off" also part of many CMA, including Wing Chun. As the hit makes contact, you rotate your torso with the blow, using the turning *gong* that we train.

-FJ

-FJ

[red5angel]

I have to agree with Fa_jing, if you breath out with the punch your muscles are tight but relaxed. I believe you can even learn to do this much like FJ is talking about with boxers. We do a drill for a while where you are blowing out forcefully, as you breathe out your stomach expands and you can learn to match the blow and take the energy coming in, absorbing it.

[anerlich]

How do you toughen yourself up to get hit in the head?

I don't believe anyone thinks that is possible. However, if you are going to get hit there, better to learn to keep the chin down, take the shot on harder parts of the skull rather than more sensitive areas, move with the blow so that the impact is dissipated over a greater distance rather than taken directly, rolling with or shedding the punch rather than presenting a stationary target which will take all the impact.

And of course, it's better to block, parry, evade, or take the punch on the arm, hand or shoulder if possible. And a partial slip or block is still better than none at all.

A few minutes of sparring with a skilled and committed would convince most that complete avoidance of head contact is an unrealistic goal. Most boxers learn to roll with and shed punches the hard way.

IMHO the aim of the exercise some have detailed is not to make the body more resistant to blows, but to develop the skills and attributes necessary to better "absorb" the blows through appropriate movement and breathing.

I've seen some people advocate "techniques" and "practices" to learn to "deal" with head impact, but I'm sceptical.

On what may be an interesting aside on head trauma, my father sits on a Ethics Committee which advises on experiments on animals.

The latest scientific thinking seems to be that it may cause less damage to the brain ff the blow is taken with the skull completely immovable, most damage to the brain occurring due to it hitting the inside of the skull as the head wobbles or whiplashes after impact.

It also appears, contrary to earlier assumptions, that the brain does not receive all the damage at the moment of impact and moments thereafter, but it goes on gradually for some time thereafter, meaning that quick intervention by medical professionals may reduce the severity of the final outcome.

My father and his colleagues are being asked to consider the ethical soundness of applying various types of blows to anaesthetised sheep. As much worse things happen to them in an abbatoir, my Dad feels the experiments will probably be approved.


as you breathe out your stomach expands

Not for me, thanks. In that case your stomach wall is moving out towards the blow, thus increasing the impellent force on your body. I want my stomach to move WITH the blow thus dissipating the force. I want to DECREASE intraabdominal pressure to take a shot, not INCREASE it as you describe.

I agree with fa-jing. You need to start off with light blows, gradually increase the impact, backing off again when the impact causes you to start to tense. Proceed incrementally.

[Wingman]

as you breathe out your stomach expands

This is also what I do whenever I take a punch to the body. I don't know about the others, but it works for me.

I was chi saoing with a partner and I was able to hit him in the ribs. It was not a very strong blow; but to my surprise, he got winded. When I asked him why, he said that he was inhaling when he took the punch.

...just my experience. You are welcome to disagree or contradict.

[anerlich]

he said that he was inhaling when he took the punch.
Well, just about everyone before you on this thread, me included, agreed you should exhale when absorbing a punch. Just about every instructor I've worked with has recommended striking during the opponent's inhalation if you can for maximum psychophysiological effect, that's hardly a revelation.

My abdomen expands when I inhale, "deflates" when I exhale, unless I'm specifically trying to do "reverse" breathing as an exercise, which I would strongly counsel you against if you're trying to perform any hard physical activity.