what is good Wing Chun?

[aelward]

When comparing lineages, how can you honestly and objectively evaluate what good WC is?

I think that most people will always view the quality of WC in general through the standards established by their own sifu. Therefore, we will probably never agree 100% as to what is "good" Wing Chun.

For example, you see many different approaches to chi sao: one school may emphasize that if your hands are moving too much, it is wrong; others may say that if you are moving backward, you are losing; yet others may believe that resisting an opponent's attacks with brute force is wrong; and of course, there are those that believe that as long as you are hitting your partner, you are winning. And on many occasions, I have seen people from different lineages doing chi sao (and it seems to always boil down to a tacit competition in these cases), and coming away with a different conception of who did "better." Or at least, a rationalization of why they didn't do so well (i.e., "he was hitting me, but I was pushing him back the whole time"; "he was hitting me, but he was using too much force"; "he was hitting me, but his hands were flying", etc).

So here's the question: what attributes make good WC?

[aelward]

With that question asked, here is my answer.

Good Wing Chun uses its principles and theories to optimize the individual’s fighting potential. It does not mean that you will win 100% of your fights. That said, I follow some of the following guidelines for self-evaluation of my WC.

1. It focuses on safety first. Even a two year old knows how to hit someone or pull someone’s hair. Not getting hit is harder, and takes training. Safety first means not exchanging hits if at all possible (of course, I have never seen a real fight where one person has escaped without getting hit at all). In chi sao or application, if I hit, but have gotten hit myself, I consider it a failure.

2. It attempts to be economical (simple, direct, efficient) in nature. It uses just enough to get the job done, no more.

3. It maintains an arm structure and a body alignment that are conducive toward stability, transformability, and the transfer of power. If you win a fight, but have abandoned structure, then it isn’t good WC.

4. It emphasizes sensitivity over fixed responses. i.e., contact reflexes. Your attack and defense depends on what you feel through a bridge arm; not just upon what you want to do.

5. It should be relaxed, and avoid using pure muscular power. If you are out of breath or super sore after training, it physiologically means that you are relying too much on your muscles (i.e., oxygen requirement increase and lactic acid release with overuse of muscles). If you have eaten well, and you have access to water, you should be able to continue doing chi sao for several hours.

6. It doesn't depend on physical speed. (note that this is different from structural speed) For example, if you are significantly faster than someone, and you can leave yourself open to hit them because you know you can get back into position, then you are "right" for this particular circumstance. But if you train to depend on your physical speed ALL the time, it is wrong, because there will always be someone faster.

7. It works! (late addition) If your way embrace all of the above ideas, but you still can't apply it to fighting, or at the very least, free sparring, you are still missing something.



Overall, the means are just as important as the ends. However, the means may be different from person to person.

[jesper]

"In chi sao or application, if I hit, but have gotten hit myself, I consider it a failure."

Sometimes you must accept to get hit in order to gain a tactical advantage, or to finish the fight quickly.

Other than that, your reasoning is sound.

[red5angel]

You got almost all of them Aelward, you got sensitivity, structure, economy, and no need for power or speed, but you forgot root! Without it you have no foundation with which to build that wing chun house on.

The problem is that most people just talk about these things. Take any school you have had experience with, and take what you saw they could improve upon. now ask them about that aspect of training and they will say the same thing you would. If thier arms are floppy and all over, they will still most likely tell you they are using good structure, sensitivity, and that they dont rely on power and speed.........

[aelward]

r5a writes:
> but you forgot root!

IMHO, body alignment = root. Has to do with transfer of power, right??

> If thier arms are floppy and all over, they will still most likely tell
> you they are using good structure, sensitivity, and that they
> dont rely on power and speed.........

How would you define "floppy"? If someone's arms are malleable, but still retain firmness and correct structure, I consider this to be perfectly OK.

[red5angel]

Body alignment is part of it. Lining up the three major points, straight spine, deep stance gets you there. This allows you to take energy when it comes to you and send it to the ground.

I agree, is someone maintains perfect structure. There are some examples out there but often loose elbows are what leads to floppy arms. I can't name names on the forum but email me and I can send you some links with some good examples of floppy arms.

[aelward]

By lining up the three points, does your spine become perpendicular to the ground? If that is the case, is this the ONLY way to do WC correctly? Have you ever seen a picture of Yip Man (I bring YM into this because you trace your roots to Leung Sheung) with his spine perpendicular to the ground?

[red5angel]

Yep, if you look at Yip Man in some of his pictures you will see his spine is straight. As he grew older he may have had a little spinal curvature do to age but otherwise his spine is straight. This is a common theme in CMA period, you line up the spine and your qi flows more freely, most CMA pushes this sort of structure.

[TjD]

its all about the FEELING!!!

if you know the feeling, and it FEELS wing chun - then it is good

[anerlich]

aelward,

good stuff, a lot of those apply equally to other MA's, certainly to BJJ. You do not have a "root" on the ground (don't take that the wrong way :D) but good structure, posture and position are very important.

It is a fallacy to think that one's spine must always be straight. The spine is designed to bend, and indeed it is impossible to move the body as a unit without recruiting the joints of the spine and pelvis to some degree. Correct "alignment" is important in efficientphysical activity, but "straight" is not always best. Try squatting or deadlifting a heavy weight with a dead straight back - better still, don't. You need to stick your butt out and arch the spine for effectvie lifting capacity and safety.

[CanadianBadAss]

The Tao Te Ching says that ugliness is only known as being ugly when compared to what is beautiful.

To judge what good Wing Chun is or not, first we have to understand what the best WC is.

So after it's figured out that the TST method is the best, we can simply compare our WC to him, and rate how close we come to his perfection.

[yuanfen]

Is TST coming to the Minneapolis seminar to learn?

[dragontounge2]

When you can get hit by a car and still hold your root.;)

[aelward]

So far, what we have is my set of guidelines, with some input from r5a, as well as TST being the source of perfection that we should all follow.

Does anyone else have any guidelines, or anyway they evaluate themselves (or others) at the end of a good practice session??

[Grendel]

Originally posted by aelward
With that question asked, here is my answer.

Good Wing Chun uses its principles and theories to optimize the individual’s fighting potential. It does not mean that you will win 100% of your fights. That said, I follow some of the following guidelines for self-evaluation of my WC.

Hi Aelward,

I like your post. I also think that an individual's fighting potential is optimized by good Wing Chun.

To your list, you might add mention of maintaining forward intent without providing energy to your opponent to be used against you.


3. It maintains an arm structure and a body alignment that are conducive toward stability, transformability, and the transfer of power. If you win a fight, but have abandoned structure, then it isn’t good WC.

I think this is the most important. The hands must be linked to the horse and the horse rooted.


Overall, the means are just as important as the ends. However, the means may be different from person to person.
Quite true.

Regards,

[Alpha Dog]

someone out here once said that Biu Ji was Wing Chun on the verge of structural collapse (my paraphrase) -- is it? if so, is succeeding with Biu Ji less noble than with Siu Lim Tao?

[anerlich]

Overall, the means are just as important as the ends.

In training, I agree. But in a self defense situation, the ends are far more important.

[S.Teebas]

Does anyone else have any guidelines, or anyway they evaluate themselves (or others) at the end of a good practice session??

At the end of the day, for me, its important to increase my base level of skill. What i mean is if i get attacked on the street, can i perform better today than i could 6 months ago? And in a year, i aim to increase my base level again. I think building this is most important for me. So id say I am my own precednet i aim to surpass.

Of course I get inspired from a varitey of sources, that can give a new idea...or way to look at the way i do things or think about certain things too. I also think TST is the greatest at WC person that i currenty have knowledge of, but of course im biased becasue i study under his linage.

This does not mean i disregard information from other sources. I like the way the WSL guys are into the realistic aspect of WC. I also have been to a WT seminar just to see what these guys are doing/the way of thinking. And while i may not totally agree with things i see; it's still possible to get good ideas from them. (for the WT guys i learnt about the precision of their punches etc...) You can learn something from everyone. Even if its a bum on the street..i leant, dont be a bum on the street!

At the end of the day i think its important to realise that you are your own master, and yourself is the real indicator. Theres no point in concentrating on how somone can kick your ass..and how much you wish you had their level of skill etc... Concentrate on yourself is the best indicator.

[dezhen2001]

If you win a fight, but have abandoned structure, then it isn’t good WC.

Very true :) In a fight u can do whatever the heck u want as long as you survive, it's a FIGHT!... doesn't have to be WC...

just my thoughts :)

david

[kj]

Concluded by S.Teebas
At the end of the day i think its important to realise that you are your own master, and yourself is the real indicator. Theres no point in concentrating on how somone can kick your ass..and how much you wish you had their level of skill etc... Concentrate on yourself is the best indicator.

A thoughtful post. Thanks.
- kj