Sticky/Push hands

[northernJump]

I've just got to the level in my club where we learn sticky hands and push hands. The push hands seems basically the same as what I've done in Tai Chi and the sticky hands looks like what I've seen in wing chun. When I say 'seen' I mean I've watched some wing chun people practicing, I really have no presonal experience.

What I'd like to know is : Are these exercies part of all praying mantis's curriculum and are they borrowed from Tai chi / Wing chun or were they acquired independently.

[mantis108]

I think it would help if you would give us the background of your club. Which style of Mantis, which lineage, etc. For example, in CCK TCPM, there are Taiji (forms and Push hands) incorporated into it through the effort of Grandmaster Chiu Chuk Kai. Traditional PM really has no Taiji component. However, Sticking is one of the 12 Characters pinciple. So you will have to do a trace on the source of where these stuff came into your club.

Mantis108

[northernJump]

OK sorry. I train in 7* with sifu John Funk. more Info here :http://www.mantiskungfu.com/. I'll ask at class tomorrow night what the *official* history is. I was just curious what other styles did.

[BeiTangLang]

Let us know what you discover from your querry. I am sure several others would be interested in the background info you get.
Thanks,
BTL

[Tainan Mantis]

northernJump,
Jon Funk's PM is descended from HK 7* school teacher Huang Hanhsun.
GM Huang was the most prolific writer on PM averaging one book a year from 1946 until his death.

He has outlined the beginning 2 person hand techniques for future posterity.
Of interesting note is that these "basic" techniques" will be applied in conjunction with all the advanced techniques the student later learns.

Although I studied Taiwan 7* there is enough similarity that I know what techniques he is talking about 90% of the time.

Here are the first 5 techniques for two people:

1.Sticking and pasting hands. A variation of the plucking hands technique.

2.Inner and outer hanging hands.

3.Black tiger steals the heart. This has at least 3 varieties...
-plucking...
-smashing(pi)...
-hanging...(although he only lists plucking and smashing)

4.rubbing the plate hand(mo pan sho)

5.Fan-che lu-lu. The hardest of the hard or using hardness to overcome hardness. Swinging the hands down or up.

Three hand partner drills:
Numbers 1, 2 and 4 use three hands as opposed to 1 or 2.
For example right, left, right... or vice versa.
The third hand is the strike while the first 2 trap the opponent.

In summary I find no relation to these basics with Taiji or Wingchun, furthermore, Huang Hanhsun's teacher Luo Guangyu made a series of 14 exercises called "14 road tan tuei" that utilize the above techniques and then some. They are or were taught for solo and then for partner.

[RAF]

Tainan Mantis:

Although I haven't seriously trained in PM for 10 years (except for Liuhe duan tuei--foudnational form for 6 Harmony and qi qing zhai yao) I do recall an exercise in 8 step system??? where two opponents positioned themselves (one in a bow and one in a 60/40) and punched toward the should area. The one receiving the punch had to roll back into a 60/40 position controlling the punch by using the lead hand to follow the opponents elbow and using the backhand (held fist) to roll with the wrist of the incoming punch thus redirecting the punch. To execute these movements required an significant amount of flexibility and rotation of the waist. I don't know the name of the exercise but it surprised me (being a taiji player) that mantis had these kind of exercises.

Also saw a demonstration of some applications in fen shen ba zhou. In each application blocking techniques were no longer used. As soon as the opponent began, you had to reposition the body to avoid the attack while simultaneously attacking. Again it was rather shocking to see how much body flexibility (not stretching and kicking high stuff but complete integrated body movement) was needed to use the techniques effectively. There was Chinese term for this property of moving, avoiding and attacking similtaneiously but I could not write it down. This particular principle seemed to be characteristic of all of the fen shen ba zhou postures and definitely the mode of operation for the applications I saw.

Always amazes me how complex the higher levels of mantis become.

[northernJump]

wow, thanks a lot Tainan. So far I've learnt 3 short 2-person sets for sticky hands but I don't know their names. I'll check with Sifu tonight and see if they are the same ones you've mentioned.
Thanks again - more information thatn I was expecting.