Getting softer - advice needed

[fa_jing]

Well, I hadn't been injured in a while. But, I have been injured many times, and been through down time, whatever sport I was into. A recent experience (injury) has convinced be that I need to get softer - I've been taking too hard an approach to training and usage. I am a person who has all kinds of old injuries, and I find myself at times exacerbating these, or building up tension in my body. Or maybe just not letting go of tension as fast as I should. What do you recommend for getting softer? I know that I can work more on my stretching, breathing and Yoga, but I am thinking that maybe some shift in Martial Arts approach might be necessary. Not a new style - Wing Chun is already a style for which you can take an approach that is relatively harder or softer than the next guy. You see, I count alot on being able to outhit and outlast my opponent - which is fine and dandy, except what do I do when I come up against someone that hits harder than I do? I end up putting too much pressure on myself to try to be in better shape than the next guy. Also, I am young, but eventually I won't be able to fight like this. I see the beauty of the soft overcoming the hard, and although I use some yielding, it is not enough. I would like to approach attainment of this quality, softness. Not to lose my strength or my hardness, I want to increase both hard and soft at the same time, and learn to better use softness. Now, I only meet once a week with my Sifu, and my current practice partner is non-WingChun, so constantly working on Chi Sao is not really an option.
What have you all done to become softer?
-FJ

[red5angel]

Hey Fa-jing - thought you could get away from me in this forum didnt ya! ;)

Seriously though, just relax when you are doing anything, concentrate on your structure, make it exact and precise. how long are you doing your SLT for?

[Budokan]

I'm never soft. I'm always hard.

[fa_jing]

Red5 - we don't spend a long time doing SLT, it's over in a few minutes. I sat in on another lineage's class where they did 10-15 minutes on the SLT - my arms were shaking, etc. I think your point is a very good one and I will try this out - I think it will take my shoulders to a greater degree of relaxation and help produce the qualities I was alluding to in my post.

Budokan - did it hurt when they put in your implant?! :eek:

-FJ

[Merryprankster]

Learn some BJJ. Your sensitivity will improve drastically and very, very quickly, which will allow you/make you more confident in being softer. Or wrestling. I recommended BJJ though, because Judo, Wrestling, and Shuai Chiao all tend to take a lot of falls....

Skip Sambo and Catch wrestling. They both feel like a mugging.

BJJ feels like a straight jacket made of water. Beyond normal bumps and bruises, and the occasional mild injury, I rarely get hurt....unless I'm training for a tournament... but that's something else again, isn't it? :)

Of course, here is the obligatory smart-ass response:

Softer? Eat more, exercise less....

[Budokan]

It did some. But the shots of morphine help a lot.

[fa_jing]

That was pretty good advice, too, MerryPrankster. Although I don't have the time to pick up another art right now. Still, that's something I might look into in the future - your description also seems in line with what I am looking for.

-FJ

[fa_jing]

How about personal anecdotes related to achieving softness, within your own art? I mean both becoming softer, and becoming more confident in the use of softness.

-FJ

[dbulmer]

Fa_Jing,
From your posts I think you and I practice WC similarly. I also want to get softer. What I am trying to do is use footwork more intelligently - working on angles and instead of throwing punches , I am trying to get my positioning right so that I can throw less but be more accurate. I think we are at the opposite end of what Red5Angel does - this is why WC is so difficult. You can train on a particular aspect of WC and then find that you miss out on other equally useful aspects.

A martial art is hard work and I am sure the Choy Li Fut, Hung Gar Shaolin guys would feel pretty much the same.

[Merryprankster]

fa_jing--

have you tried using only footwork and movement vice "blocking (or trapping) and return fire," type training? It will help you learn to read your opponent. Because, if you don't...you'll get hit. A lot....

[shaolinboxer]

Here is an anecdote.

One of the guys I work out with admitted muscles his way through technique. He's a big gruffy puerto rican ex-golden gloves boxer (he was a trainer for years).

One day he asks my sensei (now 63 years young) how to use aikido against a boxer. Sensei says "eh, stay loose". My training partner look at him, and without speaking they each get ready. Luckily I was stretching at the time so I noticed their "conversation". I watched Joe flick jabs at sensei, who kept distance and met each jab with a flickering of his own wrist, what i now think of as an aiki-jab. When joe moved to throw a lead hook/cross, sensei steped inside and put him on his back. Joe didn't try to kill him, but then neither did sensei use excessive force.

I myself experiece the power of relaxation often. Many of my training partners have 2x my physical strength, and my technique fails when ever I tense up or try to muscle it.

i think the key to relaxtion is breathing.

[fa_jing]

MP - Yes, we have drills that are just moving around with each other, or moving about randomly while doing one-armed dan chi sao (sensitivity and structure drill) - I was already thinking of putting more focus into this. It's something I might be able to get my training partner up on, pretty quickly.

Also, I'd like to make clear, I am a pretty advanced (3+ years WC) student, I don't simply muscle my way through. Just that, I'd like to emphasize softness and sensitivity more than I currently do.
For instance, I have a good understanding (finally!!) of basic Wing Chun footwork and really applying it, but I don't always make use of all the aspects in sparring. It is like anything else - you have to pick a couple steps and concentrate on them for a round. Now that my hands have improved, it gives me more leeway in concentrating on the footwork. I think the point about throwing less punches is partially correct - as long as the percentage landing is high, the more you throw the better! My punching is more accurate than it used to be. But to land a high percentage of punches, you need spacing and timing - meaning you can't just keep throwing punches that don't land, you'd be shooting yourself in the foot.

I want to be able to take greater advantage of my opponents mistakes and overextension. Nowadays, I tend to "crash" the opponent with a trapping move and punches, but don't always take the best angle, and too often end up clinching. Also, I need to know when to yeild, and/or to take an angled step backwards to create space. I like to DICTATE to my opponent, but dictating is not always possible, see above!

I think achieving greater softness would allow me to play matador, and would give me the close spacing I need for an elbow strike or throw - without clinching. It goes back to being able to contend with an opponent that for whatever reason (you're hurt, you're old, your genetics) is superior in conditioning to you.

-FJ

[red5angel]

Fa_jing, the other thing is to just try to stay as relaxed as you can when you are doing SLT and such. How long have you been doing wing chun? I have been told that 3 years of consistant training will get you to a comfortable point where you can begin to feel really relaxed.

[Gabriel]

im not sure what you exactly mean here..

If you mean softer in practice, then think yielding. and large circles into small circles. Ex. Say someone throws a reverse punch at your face. Instead of blocking force against force, yield with him, and maybe pluck or deflect and hammer fist ect.

If you mean softer in training...well I wouldn't know. My training is pretty hard.

[fa_jing]

Red5Angel - 3 years and counting. But, because our emphasis is different than most Wing Chun, I'm still working on the relaxation thing.

One thing where I have improved, is being mentally relaxed, from a thinking perspective. And that's just from mixing it up enough times, taking enough hits to where I know it won't kill me to take another. I am able to think on my feet, and adjust to my opponent's strategy. Being mentally relaxed will help your physical relaxation, but what I'm trying to acheive is a more subtle relaxation of both mind and body, a proclivity towards softer tactics, even more relaxed awareness. I think concentrating on techniques which are not "straight down the middle" will help, as will patient attention to my structure.
And, I am at times fast and loose and throwing relaxed, powerful punches, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I am yeilding, that I am getting to the outer gate, or otherwise using "soft" tactics. So there is a difference between being relaxed and being soft. Now please don't ask me to define all of these terms, LOL! I'd hate for the discussion to start focusing on semantics - Your mileage may vary, etc.

-FJ

[Royal Dragon]

Why don't you go see Choi?

Your not too far from him, right?

[dbulmer]

Fa_Jing,
"
. I think the point about throwing less punches is partially correct - as long as the percentage landing is high, the more you throw the better! My punching is more accurate than it used to be. But to land a high percentage of punches, you need spacing and timing - meaning you can't just keep throwing punches that don't land, you'd be shooting yourself in the foot. "

It's the footwork that counts - do you use palm strikes ? (in a controlled manner!) You might be able to strike more effectively less frequently.

The point is that if your footwork isn't right it's going to be all the more difficult to get into positions where you'd feel comfortable controlling. How do I know?

I've been on the receiving end! :)

[red5angel]

This may sound wierd but have you tried meditation at all?

[fa_jing]

RD - If I were to join another Kung Fu school, it would probably be Choi's. But my sifu is getting along in years, although still going strong. I have a unique opportunity to get at his knowledge, which is extensive and satistfying. I feel that if I stay in the area, I will basically be the most advanced student he's ever had, and he will give up all his knowledge to me, within the next 2-3 years. Regardless, I'd like to finish my current curriculum before moving on to another style.

That said, my sifu doesn't really believe in the way of the soft overcoming the hard, and although he has gotten me to relax considerably, this is not really his specialty. Perhaps he too, will have to modify his perspective as he advances in age.

-FJ

[fa_jing]

DBulmer - my footwork is great, but not all of it!! What I'm good at is the straight advancing footwork- both short and long stepping, left and right side step. My 3-angle (triangle) stepping is not quite as good, but it is still useful in sparring, although I'm not exploiting it enough to get to the outside gate. I'm not that good at everything else, like Muk Jong footwork, applying the bracing step, etc! But I do use my footwork to get in, I've developed good timing and sense of space, and I'm a good puncher, I don't have a problem being able to connect! But I could be in a better defensive position. Palm is good, but we wear gloves for sparring, so my development isn't the same as it is with the punches.

Red5Angel - meditation is good. The hard part is getting peace and quiet so I can concentrate. However, meditation isn't perhaps the most direct way to address this concern - I think working on the SLT for long periods of a time, will help me. I see it as applied meditation, with a physical element (moving meditation.)

Thanks for all the responses so far, gents!

-FJ

[fa_jing]

I did 20 minutes of SLT last night (3 reps) and I think this is going to help me alot, I have a new exercise for the next few months. I had gotten away from this, it feels good to go back.

-FJ

[TjD]

do you practice your SLT with dynamic tension or something?

after 15 mins of SLT there is no reason your arms should be shaking, esp after 3 years of practice :)

work your siu lim tau a LOT more, do NOT do dynamic tension, try and relax your whole body, use the bare minimum amount of muscles possible

then remember that feeling and apply it in chi sau, two man drills and sparring or whatever you do with your training partner

i'd even recommend finding a good qigong teacher, just to help yourself learn how to relax - from having your arms shaking after 15 mins of siu lim tau there might be a problem


peace
travis

[norther practitioner]

I understand what you are saying man. I feel yah, I recently dislocated my left patella and partially tore a ligament. Last night was the first time I trained (other than doing a little tai chi and chi gong here and there) in well over a month, and it will be another few months untill I get to drop into my stances. I am looking at the way I move with a physical therapist and my shirfu. I have found a few different things in my forms, bagwork, and general movements in day to day activities that can be changed to lessen the impact on my body. If you do any jumping in your forms (I know you don't fa jing), or if you do a lot of kicking on a heavy bag or on a dumby watch out for how much you do on your knees and back, try to distribute the load in what you do. Watch out for locking and twisting of the knee (that instep kick from wc is one example) ect.

[fa_jing]

Travis - my arms were shaking 2.5 years ago, when I sat in on that other class--LOL. And we weren't doing dynamic tension, just I was a few degrees more stiff at that point! No, my arms weren't shaking last night - but I did feel stuff happening, like feeling the connection between the stance and the arm movements, feeling the sinking. Also, I got a moderate burn in my legs. Actually, I have to admit that my form was terrible, I kept rising in my stance and losing my hip structure due to lack of concentration on the lower body- not due to pain, I'm a trooper. I'll do better next time ;)
Anyway, I agree on the importance of spending alot of time on the form.

-FJ

[fa_jing]

Northern - I don't do jumping in my forms, but I do jump! For training and recreation (basketball.) So the advice is appropriate.

-FJ

[TjD]

i was gonna say man..... :)

yea keep up the practicing siu lim tau, its all in there!

personally i think siu lim tau gets me the most "warmed up" or ready to train than any other exercise

usually i get to class about 20 mins early or so, and just do a nice long siu lim tau, then a bunch of kicks (because my kicks need work and they get the blood flowing)

you might wanna try doing SLT before training, the relaxation and body awareness usually continue while i train; and both of these do an excellent job preventing injury... on top of that they make your wing chun 293874923874239 times better :)

peace
trav

[Cipher]

I agree with everyone else that SLT done slow and very relaxed will help.

You could also try doing this with some of the other drills or excersizes that you do. Some times even if I and working the dummy I will do it really slow and relaxed, I also do it full speed and power. It's good to have moderation. Going slow and relaxed on anyhting will improve relaxation and increase your technique.

Another thing I have found that realy helps sensitivity and relaxation is to do free sparing but do it a lot slower than full speed and stay relaxed. Don't worry so much about hitting the person but stay relaxed and slow things down a lot. I don't mean stand there for 10 minutes in the middle of a punch just slow it down enough were you can actually notice your form and pay attention to how you are executing the technique. Of course the other person has to know how to do this also or it is messy. Hope these ideas help.