Jason de lucia

[Le nOObi]

I went to Jason de lucia's website (jason de lucia is a pro fighter who was in the UFC and says his style in 5 animals kungfu) and it says that the 5 animals in the 5 animals of kungfu are praying mantis, tiger, dragon, snake and crane. I always thought they were leopard. tiger, dragon, snake and crane. Im not an expert by anymeans but what are the 5 animals in 5 animals kungfu ? And does jason de lucia actually do 5 animals kungfu?

[Le nOObi]

oh his website is jasondelucia.com

[Unstoppable]

i think You are right what Is the Website?

[Unstoppable]

yes You are Right it is Dragon Tiger Snake Leopard Crane wWTF??????? what The Hell is Wrong with this Guy Mantis is its Own style?!!!!!!!!!!

PS Also he Calls his School a "DOJO"? what Is Up with That?

[NorthernMantis]

Hey you're right. I have seen some 5 animal styles exchange one for the monkey but never a mantis. Me thinks it was all planned by the groundfighters to give kung fu a bad rap.

[Black Jack]

E-mail the guy and start up a conversation if you are curious to some questions. I think the guy had some heart to step up into that type of an enviroment and test himself out.

[rogue]

I always thought it was woodchuck, opposum, coon, hound and whatever that thing was we just runned over.

Then my school is in a trailer park.

[NorthernMantis]

http://www.jasondelucia.com/kungfu.htm

Black Jack-

I'm sure that he is an accomplished fighter and martial artist but I wonder his kung fu's authenticity. No questions needed, the photos say it all.

Ok time to dissect thi:s

His mantis looks like no mantis I've seen. It ooks like a karatesized mantis with one hook (alhtough in fighting you can fight in whatever way but he's just posing). The classic mantis catches the cicada posture has two hooks. His left arm is too low and his elbow is flaring out.

For dragon he has a very very high kick. The dragon style was made for seizing and locking and from what I understand it is a southern style. Southern styles do not kick much and never that high. Even though I have heard that there are a northern version of the 5 animals (since the original shaolin kungfu came form the norht) it does not look like a Chinese type of kick. It looks more like something you would find in karate or tae kwon do.

For tiger...the pictures are enough.

His crane looks nothing like crane. Wether it be tibetan or southern white crane.

For the snake he's holding the iron bridge hand that you usually see in hung gar and there's no snake fist. What is that all about.
:confused: While I see him kneeing someone in the fighting pics I get the idea that he actually tried to fight like the one legged crane pose in the karate kid.

What hapened to leopard?


Taken from his website:
As a boy Jason was legally adopted by his Kung fu teacher. He studied many years, and was tested in the tradition of the time. The sash test.
The sash test was a ritual combat endeavor in which the winner was signified by the removal of the sash of his opponent by incapacitation, stealth, or other. He failed once and past the second time.
In 1992 in response to his direct challenge. Jason went to Los Angeles to challenge Steven Segeal to a fight in his Dojo. (Harua Matsuoka). He proved reluctant, but there were other takers. One, Royce Gracie, and his dynasty took him up on a challenge, which begat a rematch, which begat an invitation to fight in Japan.
It was his career in Japan which cultivated him to a higher dimension. It forced Jason to first excel at the popular techniques of the time, and began the rebirth of his core techniques, namely, five animal kung fu.

Hmm sashes were traditionaly made to hold up your pants and came in different colors just like regular clothes. It also says he went to fight Steven Seagal (aikido stylist?)

What is my oppinion you say?

1)John Delucia does not know the five animals nor does he know any kung fu as I did not see any evidence of it on his website.

2)Grapplers and mma can't use John as an excuse for me anymore becuase I ain't buying it.

3) Rolls/Ralek is a liar with a capital LIAR !

4) John probably learned formfrom a shaolin-do or under another bad kempo stylist trying to pass for a kung fu master.

[dre]

His Mantis dosen't look like seven star. That's all I can say.

[Black Jack]

Northern,

I agree with you on the background, that is some pretty circumspect material, but like you said it does not detract from his abilities, if he has any as I don't know-I am just speaking outloud, names are just names in the end, call it cardio-zen-tao-gong fu for all I care. :D

As a traditional cma player I can see of course how that might irk you a little bit. It's not a fair representation of the community or would it be fair to say it is from a mckwoon percentage.

All the good guys seem to be more underground.

[NorthernMantis]

Very true. I have met some very humble ground fighters. I just mean the rude ignorant ones though.

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by Black Jack
E-mail the guy and start up a conversation if you are curious to some questions. I think the guy had some heart to step up into that type of an enviroment and test himself out.

I think i will email him to ask him about it. My questioning if he does 5 animals kungfu has nothing to do with skills or lack thereof he has displayed in the ring in fact he does have 32 wins and only 19 losses which is not too shabby. I mean were not talking about someone like steve faulkner who had a good lineage but got beat up in the ring, were talking about someone who doesnt talk about his lineage etc.

[apoweyn]

perhaps he uses the word 'dojo' because he's an accomplished pancrase fighter now. perhaps his teaching consists largely of japanese shootfighting now.

granted, that's no excuse for the kung fu pictures. i suspect that might be more due to an unknowledgeable webmaster though (not that this excuses much; if jason's being represented by the site, he'd do well to check it himself).



stuart b.

[Merryprankster]

I think I speak for most fighter types when I say:

**** lineage--what can you DO?

But you shouldn't claim to teach/do a style you don't, regardless.

[Cipher]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
I think I speak for most fighter types when I say:

**** lineage--what can you DO?

But you shouldn't claim to teach/do a style you don't, regardless.

I have to agree with merry here on one side. I like the traditional aspect of training but really, what matters is how you can handle yourself. There are points and advantages to traditional training and there is much more than just kicking butt, but you should still be able to fight or what your learning is not very useful.

[Mutant]

first off i give the dude major props for what he did and he has quite an accomplished fight record. i'm not about to say the guy's style isnt good or anything like that, what he's done speaks for itself.

but what he calls five-animal kung fu is NOT shaolin 5 animal kung fu! it has some similarites, but looks more like kenpo, not that theres anything wrong with kenpo, its just different and should be confused with or represent something that its not. the original shaolin 5 animals (fighting animals, not the qigung set animals) where the tiger, crane, leopard, snake and dragon. mantis was developed centuries later and taught as its own entity, i studied 5 animal kung fu (wu xing chuan) for 4 years a while back and not that i'm any expert or anything but i did a fair amount of reading on the history, techniques, etc back then and all i can say is that traditional cma 5-animal kung fu is considerably different than what he's calling his 5 animal kung fu.

prankster, i agree with. but you have to understand that this is a touchy issue with kung fu folks because so many ufc and mma minded types use some of the early traditional ufc fighter's styles & lineages to discount the effectiveness of all cma and other traditional arts and they became the whipping boys of the mma generation. and i do think there were a lot of 'pattsies' in the early ufc's. not that they weren't half decent fighters, but not nearly as equally accomplished a level as the gracies and their crew were in their respective system.

[NorthernMantis]

It's not that bothers me. What bothers me is people like Ralek coming up in here disrespecting us because so and so lost when so and so doesn't know kung fu.

[Merryprankster]

Actually, the continuing beat down administered to people who step in the ring, who also claim to train in traditional arts is probably more the reason than the early UFC's.

Yes, I'm aware that good schools train hard and can hold their own.

Yes, I'm aware of Shooter's work and his fighters.

Yes, I realize that the focus of most TMA schools is not ringfighting.

If it really is a touchy issue, then more people like Shooter and his gym need to step up and demonstrate skill in the ring. This will quell the naysayers.

If ringfighting, and the prevailing attitudes of the MMA community don't actually matter, then it should be ignored (fat chance, I know!!! :)).

I think you'll find that MMA types respect anybody who can bring it, regardless of style. It's mostly the 14 year old testosterone laden tough guys who think otherwise.

Lineage doesn't indicate anything beyond who you studied under.

It's like being old in this day and age--it doesn't make you wise, or deserving of respect--it means you were just smart enough not to step in front of a moving truck.

To reiterate--people should not claim styles they don't do.

[Mutant]

agreed. to be a competitive fighter you have to train competitively as a FIGHTER and training and ability become much bigger factors.

of course someone who trains only in the stereotypical 'traditional' way will be beat down fast by todays top fighters.

i guess it shouldnt be 'what is your lineage/style' as much as 'what can YOU DO with what you've learned in your lineage/style'

judging by pedigree alone brings it down to the substance and level of a dog show. not that theres anything wrong with dog shows ;)

[Stacey]

I like him a lot. He's doing what all of us here don't have the nuts to do. He seems like a complete person as well.

[Skarbromantis]

anyways ...the mantis picture gave me a good laugh.

Skard1

[Stacey]

thank you,

and your response gives me a good laugh, because I study mantis and those techniques are indigenous to 8 step PM. The snake as well. Many of our movements such as "black snake surrounds the neck" are chokes.

Perhaps its your own understanding of "what kung fu is" that is lacking. Maybe its not wushu forms and kickboxing after all.

[diego]

Originally posted by NorthernMantis
http://www.jasondelucia.com/kungfu.htm

Black Jack-

I'm sure that he is an accomplished fighter and martial artist but I wonder his kung fu's authenticity. No questions needed, the photos say it all.

Ok time to dissect thi:s

His mantis looks like no mantis I've seen. It ooks like a karatesized mantis with one hook (alhtough in fighting you can fight in whatever way but he's just posing). The classic mantis catches the cicada posture has two hooks. His left arm is too low and his elbow is flaring out.

For dragon he has a very very high kick. The dragon style was made for seizing and locking and from what I understand it is a southern style. Southern styles do not kick much and never that high. Even though I have heard that there are a northern version of the 5 animals (since the original shaolin kungfu came form the norht) it does not look like a Chinese type of kick. It looks more like something you would find in karate or tae kwon do.

For tiger...the pictures are enough.

His crane looks nothing like crane. Wether it be tibetan or southern white crane.

For the snake he's holding the iron bridge hand that you usually see in hung gar and there's no snake fist. What is that all about.
:confused: While I see him kneeing someone in the fighting pics I get the idea that he actually tried to fight like the one legged crane pose in the karate kid.

What hapened to leopard?



Hmm sashes were traditionaly made to hold up your pants and came in different colors just like regular clothes. It also says he went to fight Steven Seagal (aikido stylist?)

What is my oppinion you say?

1)John Delucia does not know the five animals nor does he know any kung fu as I did not see any evidence of it on his website.

2)Grapplers and mma can't use John as an excuse for me anymore becuase I ain't buying it.

3) Rolls/Ralek is a liar with a capital LIAR !

4) John probably learned formfrom a shaolin-do or under another bad kempo stylist trying to pass for a kung fu master.



The mantis i dont think its the cicada pose, he looks like he is in a right horse and his left hand gaurds his rib or groin and his right hooks a punch at the wrist down and in towards you!.

The Dragon is to plain hes doing a sidekick all i can think hes thinking dragon like bruce lee
:cool: then he shows a sidekick!!!?.

he doesnt say were its from im thinking maybe he knows kempo concepts and dabbles in traditional arts plus he has a fight record so he prolly teachs his concepts!. ?

:D
http://www.jasondelucia.com/images/graciedown.jpg

one thing this pic you dont see much kungfu pics like this, like he looks like he is doing a traditional judo hip throw but tiger style in the low horse, and notice how his hands snakes around royces upperbody in a clawing bridgehand structure wheras judo guys sometimes look more stern and choppy; This makes me wish more kf guys like this would step up, as usually some people will look at animal styles and think why are you punching like you are a tiger wtf is wrong with you, pawing your hand out like a cat you look like a pansie:) From lack of hardcore massive competition you only see in the media patticake examples of kf demo'ed...like throw a bridge hand and strike counter then strike...wheras the original intention for styles like hungga is attack like a tiger stalking a buffallo or a lion fending off a pack of hyenas, not two tigers playing chess for territory batting at each other but not going all out:cool: I Think this is sad how untangible kf is in the masses like people tend to only get to understanding of thier bridgehands and main tools for hitting, and unless you belong to a elite club you dont really seems to see outlets for grilling your technique, to get to a point of gracies where they have proved thier understanding of ranges and leverages can stand up to other stylists, most kf focus with kf, its sad it seems thiers noone wellrepping kf, as you always read about the old masters who would goto other provinces test teachers and also take up challenges from foriegn boxers and wrestlers etc.. I Would like to see more!.

Anyone know where to dl clips of delucias comps?.

[Merryprankster]

www.sherdog.com

Use the fight finder. You should just have to type in his name.

Funny--Jason is getting the same flak on this thread from some people that Shooter's Tai Chi gets from some of the Tai Chi guys.

Seems odd to me.

[Skarbromantis]

if you say so....

looks more like mantis meets wing chun

Skard1

[NorthernMantis]

Gotta go with skarbro on this one

[Stacey]

so...

what does wing chun have that 8 step mantis doesn't?

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

yip man.

[Cipher]

It seems like his record is decent. I haven't watched many of his fights so I don't know how good he is. I would like to see more Kung Fu'ers get out and kick butt.

[LEGEND]

Jason proved himself in MMA...
I guess he needs to prove himself to CMA.
I have met several 5 animal guys and can say that they are great standup fighters. I assume Jason is one also having seen several of his PANCRASE fights.

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
www.sherdog.com

Use the fight finder. You should just have to type in his name.

Funny--Jason is getting the same flak on this thread from some people that Shooter's Tai Chi gets from some of the Tai Chi guys.

Seems odd to me.

Its a little different. People had a lot more info on shooter than we have on jason. The only info we have on jason is through his website which has a different 5 animals than the well known 5 animals. Whereas shooter posted on his knowledge of tai chi through things like the 5 positional strategy or whatever its called. I think you could compare the 2 if shooter mentioned something like taichis 3 positional strategy or something.

The reason i mentioned that it doesnt discuss lineage is that kungfu sites often discuss lineage and it would indicate if he actually knew or didnt know 5 animals. Lineage isnt an indicator of skill at all it just indicates whether or not someone knows a system. I could be the greatest fighter in the world but that wouldnt mean i could call myself grandmaster of say tai chi if i didnt know tai chi. Thats basically why i mentioned lineage.

I do however think its pretty stupid to try to judge whether or not jason knows 5 animals from looking at some poses he was in. So far the only proof that jason doesnt actually do 5 animals is that he lists a different 5 animals.

I sent an email to jason on this topic so we probably will know soon.

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by LEGEND
Jason proved himself in MMA...
I guess he needs to prove himself to CMA.
I have met several 5 animal guys and can say that they are great standup fighters. I assume Jason is one also having seen several of his PANCRASE fights.

This thread doesnt have to do with whether or not jason is a skilled fighter he obviously is! he is does have 32 wins and only 19 losses. This thread is about whether he ever learned 5 animals kungfu.

[Stacey]

oh, well in that case, yeah its kempo.


makes me wonder though. Chinese arts that went to Japan started to take on a Japanese flavor. I wonder if they do the same thing in the US and other countries overseas from china.

[Merryprankster]

Le nOObi--

What I find odd is that both of these guys are getting flak. I'm not knocking anybody.

And Lineage is highly overrated.

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by Merryprankster

And Lineage is highly overrated.

When im talking about that his site doesnt talk about lineage/ a kungfu site should im not saying if you come from a "better" lineage you are better im just saying the only way we can know that someone learned a style is if they say who they learned it from. I mean i wouldnt really need to know who jason learned kungfu from except that his site has what seems to be incorrect info on 5 animals.

[Black Jack]

I think a lot of the cma crowd gets to hung up on lineage.

An example, a kid learns a system of gung fu from a neighbor who he mows the lawn for and they become friends, lets say the kung fu is a system of fu jow pai, but the main point is the kid just trains out of this guys backyard, just two gents working out, one teaching, both learning, one day the kid asks the teacher, where did you learn your gung fu from, the teacher replies my dad, where did he learn it from the kid then implores, the teacher thinks about it as if it never occured to him to care, then replies he believes he learned it from a capitan he was stationed in the army with, just a group of men working out in a aircraft hanger and thats all his father told him, that and it was used to bring him home alive on a number of occasions.

No fancy scrolls, no ancient lineages, no ritual, no rank, no politics, just sheer training with purpose and honesty on all fronts.

I have a feeling there is more real gung fu like that then the "show me your papers" culture we see now.

[Le nOObi]

Good point black jack

[NorthernMantis]

True blackjack but I don't care wether he know's how to fight or not what I care about was if he really knew cma because I keep hearing trash about how kung fu does not work when they use him as an example. Basically what I'm saying is did he really represent cma in his early days?

[Cipher]

I keep hearing people talk about Shooter. Who is shooter? Is he a good fighter? What is the general consensus on him? Any web sites for him? Thanks. Just wondering who you guys are refering to.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

hes just some heroin addict that accidentally made it ring side durring an early ufc. do to his extreme state of euphoria he was moving his arms around in a dance to unheard music. people thought he was doing taichi and drug him into the ring where he was promptly beaten to death by a thai boxer.

[Nevermind]

I have watched many UFC competition videos and from what I have seen, I give mad props to anyone with the nads to even step into such a venue. Now to actually win ONE says a lot about an individual let alone 32 victories. As for his claim to study 5 Animal Kung Fu, well,....I'll just say that it is obviously a different style than the one we are all familiar with. I have never even heard the mantis being referred to as an animal in the CMA's. Not discrediting him at all because I simply do not know of the system he studies. I think that is where the lineage thing comes in to play. No, it is not a measure of his fighting skill. (although his 32 victories certainly are) But, it would give us some insight about his style and where it is derived from. Alright, I gotta' get back to work. You guys are going to get me fired! LOL (o:

[cagey_vet]

:o

[Braden]

MerryP, Legend, etc - I don't understand your criticisms here.

[Merryprankster]

Jason Delucia is receiving flak for not being a "real" 5-animal practicioner, in much the same way that Shooter sometimes gets flak for not teaching "real," tai chi.

That's all I was saying.

[Braden]

Shouldn't misleading or fraudulent information be pointed out?

I didn't see anyone make any comments putting down his fighting skill.

[rogue]

I'll check my old Freddie V shirt but the animals sound like Shoalin Kempo Karate.

[Dark Knight]

I thought he was from Revere Mass. He could be from a villari break off. God knows there are a million of them out there.

[Merryprankster]

Braden

Yes--but personally I'm not qualified to make that judgment.

Other people obviously are. I just found it kind of interesting.

I realize where this is headed, of course--it doesn't matter if some guy does Minnesota jiujitsu and cleans up at BJJ tournaments. It's not BJJ.

Same thing here--his fight record speaks for itself, but he may or may not be a 5-animal stylist.

I guess what I'm trying to say is instead of bashing him, why not find out what he does/says before passing the judgment of "it's not 5-Animal Kung Fu."

Who knows... maybe it is. Or maybe its BASE is 5 animal or whatever.

[Braden]

I don't think anyone's bashing him. Five animal kungfu is a specific thing and he doesn't happen to be doing it. I know everyone gets burned by 'yeah but the guy in the UFC isn't real kungfu' and that situation sucks, but the facts are the facts. Not much else to say about it.

[Merryprankster]

That's possible, of course.

But there doesn't seem to be a lot of data collection going on prior to the analysis. That's all I'm getting at.

[Braden]

According to his webpage, his art follows the structure of a relatively popular north american art inspired by the shaolin myth, and not that of the chinese five animal kungfu. I'm not sure how else to explain that.

[Merryprankster]

I think that does it quite nicely :) Works for me.

[LEGEND]

Braden...yeah but I've seen this crap within the wing chun community...peeps look at pics and laugh and say hey...his technique doesn't look like the PERFECT BONG SAO etc...hell he might have added his own intrepretation to 5 animal. Why not email him and find out if the webmaster made a mistake...plus he's been training SHOOTFIGHTING for several years so maybe he left the 5 animal teaching and calls his skool a dojo.

[Le nOObi]

Dont bother emailing him i already have i havent gotten a response yet.

[chokeyouout]

Funny.

Ragging on Delucia because of his "lineage" or stances is outrageous.The guy fights.Period.Gets in the ring, claims to train Kung Fu and bangs.I give the guy all the respect in the world.It's truly comical to here the Kung Fu community's response when a CMA enters a NHB touney and loses."He's not doing mantis , that's kenpo", "He is a fraud".Whatever.Everyone should embrace the fact that he enters and train KUng Fu.

He is probably only one of two CMA's that have continued to fight after losing miserably during their first fights.I could only imagine if he was undefeated.He surely would be the savior of Kung Fu.

Give the guy some credit.

[BAI HE]

Well put Choke.
Reciting one's martial lineage has never won a fight.

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by chokeyouout

Ragging on Delucia because of his "lineage" or stances is outrageous.The guy fights.Period.Gets in the ring, claims to train Kung Fu and bangs.I give the guy all the respect in the world.It's truly comical to here the Kung Fu community's response when a CMA enters a NHB touney and loses."He's not doing mantis , that's kenpo", "He is a fraud".Whatever.Everyone should embrace the fact that he enters and train KUng Fu.


Jason delucia is 32-19 he obviously is a good fighter this isnt about CMA people not claiming one of their own after he loses. I dont claim someone like steve faulkner doesnt know and wing chun and he is 0-1 i know he does. I also dont claim someone like joel sutton who is 2-4 doesnt do mantis he also obviously does.

You may not realize this but Shaolin 5 animals is a specific style it has a specific 5 animals those animals are tiger, dragon, crane, snake , and LEOPARD. On Jason delucia's site he says the animals are tiger, dragon, crane, snake, and MANTIS. Who knows maybe jason takes some style of 5 animals that is totally different than everyone elses. Maybe he takes 5 animals and also mantis and he forgot to tell the webmaster to put up leopard i dont know but what i do know is what he does doesnt seem to be 5 animals.

[Cipher]

Something to consider though in the heat of a fight his "crane punch" might not have the absolute perfect form that it does when you train with it. Even being able to pull off the moves in a full contact fight is pretty good.

Again I have not seen many of his fights so I have no idea how good he is.

Is he the one that fought Royce in the first released UFC? It showed him doing a spining heel kick on a reflex bag?

[Royal Dragon]

But don't 5 animal guys learn one animal at a time? Maybe he learned the first 4 only and then Mantis later. Since he didn't know the 5th animal, he subbed his Mantis for it??

If THAT is the case, he's still a legit Kung Fu guy, just not fully trained in the 5 Animal system.

[Merryprankster]

Thanks Royal--that's kind of my point.

All the facts aren't in. Figure that out FIRST, then pass judgement.

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by Merryprankster

All the facts aren't in. Figure that out FIRST, then pass judgement.

Good point i did try to email him but i havent gotten a response so far. I think baseless accusation is the only logical thing to do now.

[old jong]

It seems like the "shaolin do" type of Kung Fu to me.
BTW chokeyouout: Fighting in MMA events does not insure automatic respectability! Many of these guys could not be considered as role models.Do you give "all the respect in the world" to anybody just because he does that?

[Braden]

chokeyouout - No one is ragging on him, they're pointing out some facts. If someone's webpage says "BJJ was invented in Ireland and it's main idea is to use left hooks as a surprise move" and you point out the inaccuracy, are you making a statement about how his lineage sucks so therefore he does and he can't fight?

Royal - Dragon is taught last. If your theory was right, that's the one that would be missing.