HUNG GAR - historic clarification

[Martin Sewer]

Hi

There is an old saying the Chinese Kung Fu World. "Once you bai si to your sifu, Your sifu is your father for life" Basically what this mean is once you are accpted into a kung fu family, you are bounded by duties to honor and to preserve the style . You must demonstrate good character, uphold the traditions of the school ,
respect your olders and know your place within the family.

Lam Jo had failed to do any of these. He had shamed the hung gar family by misrepresented himself, claimed credits that were not his.

He falsely claimed Chiu Kow,Chan Hong Chung, Wong Lee and Ho Si Kit as his own students and yet unable to provide proofs for such claims. No sifu and student picture was taken or any picture where lam Jo was instructing any of the above named sifus. To make matter worse, Lam Jo went on to enlist Chiu Kow's student Ng Shiu Hong as his own as well.

This type of behavior from Lam Jo is a disgrace to all martial artists! Lam Jo had purposely twisted and misleaded the whole Hung Gar family
and people of the martial world. Lam Jo's character brought shams to the great history and the high moral standing of the hung gar family.
Let all of us see through the clever engineered conspiracy by Lam Jo. He had used the great name of Hung Gar for his personal gains.

LET ALL OF US NOT FORGET THIS SHAMEFULL PAGE OF OUR HISTORY BROUGHT ON BY LAM JO. SO IT AND
NOT TO ALLOW IT TO REPEAT AGAIN!!!

[Brian_CA]

Dear Martin,

This subject has been a topic that has been debated over and over again. It has been agreed by most sides involved that we will respect each other and NOT enforce our opinions upon each other.

By drudging this up you show bad form. It simply makes you look petty and foolish. I am certain that your sifu would not want you to disrespect to peace that has been made. After all are you not his representative in Europe?

Leave this subject behind and go one with you life. Teach good kung fu and propogate the art for future generations.

Brian
San Francisco, CA

[PM]

???

[WongFeHung]

It seems that every style has their own inner politics. Hung-Ga has for the most part has steered clear of such back-biting. This situation has been discussed and discussed. The involved parties have been contacted. End it. We are a diverse family. There are Tang-Fung branches, Lam Sai-Wing branches and village Hung Kuen. We all see the similarities and appreciate the differences in our respective schools. The one thing we agree on is that we are all brothers. Hung-Ga is known for its morality, integrity and ethics. Let's keep it that way.
Question: How many Hung Ga practitioners does it take to put in a lightbulb?
Answer: Four. One to put it in, and three to say, "That's nice, we do it a little different."
Peace

[South Paw]

Hello Brian,

You stated: This subject has been a topic that has been debated over and over again. It has been agreed by most sides involved that we will respect each other and NOT enforce our opinions upon each other.

What wonders me is that there are still some Hung Gar sites which have "official statements", "historical lineage", "special letters", etc. When there is a kind of truce why not throw these items out of these websites?

Klaas

aka

South Paw

[Brian_CA]

Hi Klaas,

There was an official statement made on this website I believe a few months ago. In addition it was also on www.hungkuen.org. (http://www.hungkuen.org.) Since then most the parties involved have agreed to a truce.

Here is the statement made. I hope it clarifies things a bit. Please keep in mind that it involves the Lam family and Frank Yee's branch.

An Important Announcement for All Hung Gar Practitioners
PREAMBLE
In recent months, a debate among the different Hung Gar lineages concerning historic issues has distracted many of us. We live in a free society and constructive debates are part of the democratic process in which issues are discussed and resolved. This debate, however, has generated strong feelings, which are threatening to damage the unity of the Hung Gar family as a whole.

At a closed door meeting, Frank Yee, Grandmaster of the Tang Fong/Yuen Ling Lineage, and Lam Chun Fai, Grandmaster of the Lam Cho Lineage, agreed to issue this joint statement. In this joint statement, the Grandmasters call upon all members of their lineages to act in accordance with their decision, so as to set an example for all. The Grandmasters' goal is to maintain harmony within the Hung Gar family and to promote the Hung system.


STATEMENT

Each Hung Gar lineage has its own teachings and history.
The Lam Cho Lineage and Tang Fong Lineage agree that while their respective histories may not coincide in some areas, neither family wishes to impose its teachings or history on the other.
We advise all members of the martial arts community to follow the teachings and history of their own lineage.
We see no purpose in one lineage trying to discredit the teachings or history of another lineage. In the end, the propagation of our great art should be our only goal.
Accordingly, we call upon members of our respective lineages to rise above any further such disputes, and acknowledge that other lineages have their own teachings and histories. We ask that all members of our respective lineages cease public debate of the accuracy of the teachings and histories of other lineages.

CONCLUSION
Constructive debate is a good thing as long as the goal is to enrich our great system. We understand that no one is ever afraid to disagree and to debate any issue. At the end of the day, however, we must never forget that the different lineages within the Hung Gar family should come together and unite as one. All Hung Gar lineages trace their roots back to Wong Fei Hung, Wong Kei Ying, and Hung Hay Goon. This should be sufficient common ground for all of us in the Hung Gar family.

April. 17, 2001


May we all finally go back to talking about propogating the art of Hung gar in peace and brotherhood.

Sincerely,

Brian
San Francisco, CA

[Costas]

Dear Martin,
Is better to concentrate on your Kung Fu and in your Hung Gar family.
If you or your sifu have any disagree with the Lam family, that is not reason you to use in your believes names of other sifu. Leave them to speak for their self.

Except if you didn’t like the peace and the brother ship that happens in the last few months, in the world Hung Kar family. The joint statement of Grandmaster Lam Chun Fai and Grandmaster Frank Yee is clear and is can easily seen by anyone who really loves the promotion and practice of our beautiful art.
When you can explain how sifu Chiu Kau and his wife Siu Yin stayed between Great Grandmaster Lam Cho students, then we can discuss.

Please don’t push too much the things.

To South Paw:
I believe (in person), when sifu Chiu Chi Ling relieve from his Website his improper comments about Great Grandmaster Lam Cho; then and the Lam family and its senior students will relieve their responds. Because their statements and letters are only responds to an improper behavior

To Brian_CA:
Nice post and site. I hope to see you soon.

Sifu Costas Alexopoulos
First disciple of sifu Kostas Tsoligas
General Secretary of E.S.L.P.H.K.F

[South Paw]

Hello Brian & Costas,

I read this statement as a kind of truce between the lineages of Tang Fung and Lam Cho, although advise is given to all Hung Gar practitioners how to act and behave.

I also know from Chiu Chi Ling Sifu that when he was in Hong Kong last year he again and again tried to reach Lam Chun Fai to settle this disagreement.

Concerning the "official statements", "historical lineages", "special letters", etc. that are still one the different websites, I hope in time these will dissapear.

Klaas

aka

South Paw

[bean curd]

it is a great thing to see, the loyalty of all students to their sifu, for this each one here should be applauded.

the words each one of you has used to support their particular sifu, is without question, but does two wrongs make a right.

i too have wondered, since the statment has come out, regarding an understanding between lineages, why the words are still up on just about every site on hung gar.

how can sites say things like, " hung gar is one big family" when they are still being left to be read by anyone and everyone.

what is the importance of such words that cause such distress, surely there must be one that can make a start by taking these old, tired statements off their sites.

i have heard often through this disappointing situation, that we should all worry more about training than bring up such issues, i again must say if this is so, is it therefore for personal reasons these documents are still left up??

is the individual more important than the art???

without question of re-dress, what yee chi wai and lam chun fai have done is a true and correct direction all hung gar players need to take.


on questions of who taught who and can you prove it, is childish to say the least, each answer will only produce another question, and the endless rhetoric will surely follow.

this has been going on since the early 50's, maybe it is time for the younger ones to bring all things to an end, for the sake of the art - hung gar.

it is enough that elders use unwise words to be read and seen in public, but again is it a presedence that pupils should also use strong words??

enough is enough, actions speak louder than words, let those who know better act.

[Martin Sewer]

Dear Hung Gar Friends

You are right,if you want to be one Hung Gar Family and also if you don`t
like to fight against each other, and it is also the meaning to respect
everyone who lives Hung Gar Kung Fu. All theese things are not the matter of
the Hung Gar History Clarification.
The matter is either not that there are two different opinons about the
history of Hung Gar, the matter is that one family tells the truth and one
family is lieing and causes troubles in this way.
I ask you: "Mustn`t it be like that; A Hung Gar student always tells the
truth? And can stand with good conscience behind everything he does. And if
he was wrong he can say he was wrong and apologize to this one he did
wrong?" I short like to remind you of the ethical and moral rules which comes
from Wong Fei Hung who is in the lineage of us.
I like to explain you (for all they couldn`t recognize it until now) that the
fact is: Lam family has until today not one real proof for what they are
claiming. Chiu family however can proof everything they are saying and does
it.
Lets begin arround 50 years ago, when this story started first time. At that
time Lam Jo has written the Lam Sai Wing Memory Book and (as you know) he
has written inside of this book Chiu Kau, Siu Ying and Chan Hon Chung are
students of himself. At that time Grandmaster Chiu Kau corrected this claim in the newspapers.
I ask you:" If I write a book and I mention you in there, but what I write
about you is wrong, what can you do else than correct it in public? Can I
write in this book what I like to write about you and let it print and sale,
can`t I? Are the printed and saled books after you correction changed? Is 50
years later something else written in this book (which is since 50 years the
same)?
That`s what happend in ancient times. Sifu Chiu Chi Ling, (the next Generation
after the correction of the mistake in the Lam Sai Wing Book) had normal
contact with the Lam family, like with other Hung Gar people also and
respected them until they began again to telling the old lies.
Don`t you think for us nowaday is important to clarify the Hung Gar history,
so that in future for everyone is more than clear, what the truth is?
If we don`t clear it up now this lie will always come up again and will
always divorce the Hung Gar family.
Because we want one family, because we want peace and friendship, because we
want the good Hung Gar ethic, thats why its time for a clarification that
will make the future clear.

1. Lam Chun Fai claims:"Chiu Kao and Siu Ying (Chiu Chi Ling`s parents)were
not Lam Sai Wing`s diciples. They never studied or trained with Lam Sai
Wing."
If you look at Sifu Chiu Chi Ling`s Website you will see the typical Student and
Master picture, with Greatgrandmaster Lam sai Wing sitting and Grandmaster Chiu Kau standing behind, on
it. This kind of picture is only made by Sifu and his student, it shows in a
very traditional way how the relation is. And you must think theese days
only a few people had a camera, so you had to go to a studio to let the
photograph make a picture. "Would a Sifu do this with someone he doesn`t
really know?"
Lam family has until now no master-student picture of Lam sai Wing and Lam Jo and it
doesn`t exist apparently as well no master-student picture of Lam Jo and Grandmaster Chiu Kau, which would
exist if Grandmaster Chiu Kau would have been a student of Lam Jo.
As you know also the Lam family does this traditional master-student picture as you can see there exist master-student pictures from Lam Jo and Lam Chun Fai, from Lam Jo and Y.C. Wong and many others.

2. Lam Chun Fai say Sifu Chiu Chi Ling creates a new lineage and that the true is
what Lam Jo sais. Why he has not one proof for the truth of Lam Jo`s claims
(exept a book which Lam Jo has written by himself and was corrected by Chiu
Kau)

3.Sifu Chiu Chi Ling must not elevate his position. He is what he is, if Lam
family like it or not. It was Sifu Chiu Chi Ling`s father (Grandmaster Chiu Kau) who
made the 1st place over whole China, and Sifu Chiu Chi Ling is filmstar, a good doctor,
teacher of special forces and so on.
So if someone like to elevate his position at another
wouldn`t it be the less known person who elevate himself at the famous person?

4.Because of the supposed prooving group-pictures of Lam family. Do you
remember the Tournament 1st Hung Gar Worldchampionship in Karlsruhe
(Germany) 2000? We have of this event pictures, on which all the
participants are on it. All the different masters are sitting, the rest is
standing around. I ask you:"who is now the Sifu of all theese people and are
all theese people now student of thisone who sits in the middle?"
You can see how nonsens such a try of a proof is!
And you know, at every event people make such group-pictures.
At theese group-pictures of cause the students of Greatgrandmaster Lam Sai Wing are there
with a lot of other Kung Fu brothers and sisters.

5.Talking about the uniforms. Lam Chun Fai claims, Grandmaster Chiu Kau is Lam Jo`s
student, because he wears the Lam`s students uniform.
I ask you:"If I wear a shirt from adidas now adidas is my Sifu, and if I
change the shirt which one with Hugo Boss Logo on it, am I than a student of
Hugo Boss?" I think also here you can see what a nonsens this is.

6.As Klaas Padberg has written; Lam family sais they like to end the debate of this subject.
Why I ask you many of their students and the Lam family themselfes has the "official statement"and the
"historical lineage" still on their websites?

The situation now is: Lam family has to bring immetiately real proofs of what they are claiming, otherways there is no other possibility for them not to loose the face than to apologize to all martial artists and Sifu Chiu Chi Ling and his mother Grandmaster Siu Ying. This is the right way! Can you do this, Lam family?

Martin Sewer, Switzerland

[This message was edited by MS on 07-02-01 at 08:09 AM.]

[L D S]

It is rumoured that Chiu Chi Ling Sifu will bring his case up to the Hong Kong Chinese Martial Arts Association. Don't know what the outcome will be. Lam Chun Fai Sifu is a notable member of this association.

There was a time that the late Chan Hong Chun was president of the HKCMAA. Those days, when also Chiu Kao was still alive, there would not be such a discussion.

Ling

[vewong]

I think the important point is that history must be clarified. This is not about arguments, agreements or comprimises. This is about facts, history and true stories that happened. Saying "For the sake of Hung Ga unity, history should be ..." is nonsense. It is the same as saying "For the happiness of the Jews such that they can forget the ugly past, the history of World War 2 should be ..."

What is the truth about Chan Hong Chung, Chiu Kau, Mg Shui Hong, etc.? Each of us and our future generations deserve the rights to know these facts, these straight, untwistable, cold and concrete facts.

It is time for people to tell the real story and put up real and solid proofs to back up what they say

[Brian_CA]

It is clear that you do not respect the peace that has been brought about. Could you please reread the Official statement made by the two families and respect that most have agreed not dig up old agruements that have nothing to do with us. It does nothing but promote bad blood between the community and shows low class. If you and your sifu wish to respect this truce, the you will recieve respect back from the entire community. You reap what you sow.

I would hate to think that one side of the community would be so petty that it did not have forgiveness and humility to move on. Just let it go. No one is out to "get you". Let the elder work this out and let us move on to the future.

Brian
San Francisco, CA

[bean curd]

brian i find your words very interesting, maybe you can clarify something for me.

there is no doubt what yee chi wai sifu and lam chun fai sifu have done, again i say this is without reproach, however i see only two names on the last statement, where originally there were more on the joint statement.

so clarify for me brian, when it says "families" is it talking of two families, those mentioned on the statement or does it include those names that where on the joint statement?????

if it is only the two families mentioned, does this mean, that all other lineages come under only two families, the lams being one with there heritage and the tang fong family with there heritage.

what if those under lam family still dispute this idea, which from the above is purely the case, is it just because one comes from a certain lineage they can say what they want, and all must "kow tow" to the their words????

this here i see as one of the issues, if it includes all the families then why arn't their names on it also??

i find it always interesting regarding this issue, that when the lam family speaks, it is without reproach, yet when another member of a family speaks, they are causing trouble or are not respecting the "peace".

all very interesting, yet also all one sided, don't you think???

regarding "low class", isn't this ones perspective?? on this whole situation, you could call every word that has been used from both sides, "low class", or does it only make it one side, depending on where you sit??

regarding my question to you, can you please answer? with the words you have used, you seem to be close to the situation, otherwise why would you speak?? oh and please don't ask me to speak to anyone else, it is your words i am addressing, no one elses

[This message was edited by bean curd on 07-03-01 at 02:55 AM.]

[Brian_CA]

Hi Bean curd,

I think you may be reading too deep into my post. In my original post, I do mention that most people involved have made a general truce. I do not mean to elude that all Hung gar is from both these families only. I am not sure why everyones name is not on that statement. However, the general idea is good overall. Why would we want to continue to bicker as a community?

I posted my comments mostly in frustration. This kind fingerpointing does nothing constructive for the style. It only divides us. This issue is over 50 years old. We should concentrate on our practice and the propogating the art for future generations. Do you believe that this subject should be discussed between us? Do you not agree that it is not our place to speak of things that have nothing to do with us? Do you not think that the the truce is good for the entire community?

Brian
San Francisco, CA

[doug maverick]

frank yee and lum jo had a meeting and settled the issue you should not try to bringup again just to start some sort of contraversy

[bean curd]

brian,

you did say in your first post, that most people have agreed to a general truce, can you explain to me who these "people are", where did you get this information from???

i see only two names on the statement.

i totally agree with you that the "idea" is a good one, if you read my first post here, you will understand that i too, say this and support it.

you say we shouldn't bring this up, since it has been going on for over 50yrs, i too have said this, however one must ask, who should have stopped and let it rest??.

i will not go into detail here, i see no reason as this is a general forum, however, when the situation arose in the early 1950's,(it was going on way before this, but not to the public), there was strong re-action to what was written and even too an advert in the hong kong papers, things settled down, and these where not spoken off again.

well to the general public anyway, and chiu kau si dai gung was supportive to lam jo si dai gung after these incidents.

so if everyone is asking that we stop bickering over this, i ask only one thing, why has it resurfaced??, what was the purpose of doing such a thing???

this did not come from certain families only one, the lam family, so why did they bring it up again??? how imbalanced is the argument, when those that take offence to it, get emotional, this is only normal human reaction.

should this subject be discussed by us, well unfortunatly it was brought out to the public by a general forum, on open web sites, by the reaction of these sites, the time of correctness was lost or given away.

is it our place to discuss things of this nature, well from a family/lineage personal level, NO! however since we are all family, and at times family members do things that they should know better,family are permitted to speak.

if you are hung kuen player, then these things are of importance, depending on your place depends or your actions.

do i think a truce is good for the entire community, the answer without question is YES, however i come back to my question, why are there only two names on the statement, where are the others???

doug,

i here what you are saying, just to correct first, it was yee chi wai sifu and lam chun fai sifu who had the discussion, not lam jo si dai gung, however i do understand the ethics of such discussions.

how can you say it is over, and not to bring up such things, if other family members still have issues with it?? chi ling sifu is asking questions, why is it these could not have been settled at the sametime lam chun fai sifu was in america, chi ling sifu was in the country at the time.

to that effect chan hon chung si dai gung,one of his son's was also in america at the time, he could have also been advised of the meeting and been at the discussion.

chi ling sifu tried to get discussions going with lam chun fai sifu in hong kong, but these where not forth coming.

i see from all this, frustration from all sides, however if things need to be clarified,then all parities must get together and discuss.

in the old days arbitraries where used, this can still be accomplished today.

like i have said, action speaks louder than words, these actions must take place.

as i have said again and again, is it the personnal that is being looked at or is it the art??

[South Paw]

Post 300 is one of your best postings Bean Curd.

The statement of Martin is probably with permission of Chiu Chi Ling. I cannot think of Martin starting a debate on this forum without it.

The only positive affect I see at this moment is that Lam Chun Fai, Chiu Chi Ling and Chiu Wai are very active giving public seminars. Hung Gar is growing, expanding.
Probably a 'law of economics' that fighting and expansion are insparable.

[Brian_CA]

Bean curd,

I don't know if their is anything personal about the situation. Frankly, it's none of my business. I let the people who are involved with this debate, deal with the subject matter at hand. What I personnally object to is the negative discussions that result from this issue. It really has nothing to do with anyone but the elders. It is not our right, I feel to delve into these things. I don't mind constructive debate about things that we can do as a community as whole to propagate our art.

As a practitioner, I frankly don't care whether Chu Kau trained with Lam Sai Wing or Lam Jo. I would rather concentrate on practicing and talking about things that we can do to bring Hung gar to the future generations.

So I say let's all start with a clean slate. Let's all put our differances aside and talk about the future rather then the past. Let us all be one family once again.

Brian
San Francisco, CA

[bean curd]

brian,

there is no need to "shake hands and call it even".

this was a healthy discussion nothing more, so there is no need for this action.

more could be said, however i have said enough at this time, and since you wish to finalise this conversation, i am more than happy to comply with your request.

hopefully we can talk again on other matters more enjoyable and one day have some yum cha,

joi kin

[Tao]

Greetings KF Brothers,

I have been studying the CMA since the age of nine, and I am still a student and always will be. For a wise man knows that the path to knowledge is infinite, but the path to wisdom and understanding is eternal. The road to martial arts is truly a never ending journey. This path is otherwise known as "Tao" (the way). However, as one travels (experience) one realizes that there are many paths (lineages, systems,traditions and non-traditions) that all lead to the same desitination which is enlightenment.

For example, the humble Damo or Tamo (Buddha) came from India. He taught the monks at Sil Lum or
Shaolin (young forest temple) yogic therapeutic exercises for health and longevity. Yogi's, Swami's, Guru's all over the world alike respect the Chinese martial arts. For we are all brothers in this never ending journey of knowledge. Buddha
means enlightened one. Yogi's seek enlightenment by attaining Nirvana. This is done through asana
forms), pranayama (chi kung or qi gong), and meditation. Yoga has an energy system based on
chakras.
CMA has the meridians and accupuncture points. It all leads to the same thing. The chakra system in
Africa is the mojo, Ancient Egypt; pyramid or tachyon energy which was based on the wand of Thoth or the Djed pillar of Osiris all being based on the 33 vertebraes of the spine. Greece received their energy system from Egypt they called it the kyballion of Hermes. The Hebrews call it the Kabbalah.
The shamans of North America, the Aztecs of Mexico, the Incas of South America, the Arabs etc. I can go on and on. My point is... every culture has their own path to enlightenment. It is said that the greatest truth is this... everything is energy, and everything has a vibration, every vibration a sound, a color, a plane, a world, a universe, a universe within a universe, it goes on and on and then comes back to itself.

All paths lead to the same road in the end. Every one has the same energy but just express it in
different ways, thoughts, ideas, lineages, systems. The ancients of CMA knew this powerful truth. This is why they hid this knowledge
in poems, caligraphy, symbols, forms, systems, and lineages. However, although keeping this
knowledge secret and passing this knowledge from father to son, from Sifu to closed door disciples served its purpose (preserving the knowledge from the profane). This secrecy and esoteric privelege also breeded rivalry, conflict, etc. We can see this know to this day. An example is the lineage debates on this Forum as well as others. Over so many centuries man still hasnt learn from his mistakes. These same debates, rivalries, etc. are the same seeds that are sown in the hearts of men that reap the evil fruits of war, and destruction.

When I started learning the CMA. I started during the time when Sifus in the 1970's in NYC's
Chinatown taught students in sweat shops and underneath illegal casinos, and even their home. Back then there was great respect for the art and ones point of view. Sometimes students never even knew the name of their Sifu or the system they were taught! But these Sifus were true martial masters. Rare now a day. The most important thing was not the lineage but the principle of what you were taught.
Which existed from time immemorial. No one can claim this knowledge it is free for everyone. This is why Bruce Lee said be like water. He broke from tradition. He never downed tradition because he came from it (Yip Man).
However, he said dont get caught up in it. Like the lineage battles, etc. We are all trying to understand what this thing energy is. Scientists are realizing now that there are other invisible structures (Quantum Physics, Qi, Qi Gong, meridians, etc.) they were too closed minded to believe existed. We are at the brink of a golden age where Western Science and Eastern Science (CMA, TCM, Yoga, etc.) can merge and
make wonderful discoveries. So instead of bickering about lineages and inflating the ego of tradition (which is the opposite of eastern wisdom) let us learn from each other.

When I started learning chinese martial science (which I still am) I learned these moral codes which I find lacking in many students and schools these days:

Respect the ancestors of your art or any other art. (This is why after the Boxer Rebellion the Ching Mo Association was formed).

Respect your teacher or other teachers.

Respect your brother (or sister) in the art or
humanity in general.

Never speak ill or evil of your brother (or sister) of any lineage.

Respect one another's views. For ones view is an expression of ones Yi (idea). This comes from Qi and leads to Shen (Spiritual Enlightenment).

If someone speaks wrong, or ill of you wish him well. This is the road to self-mastery or mastering self. Controlling your emotions. Not reacting at the whim of someones words. This is true wisdom and understanding which leads one to peace and harmony with self and others. Some people dont know any better. So through silence you teach them.

Most of all Never! Ever! Forget the true
virtue of humility! Humility means to be humble.
If someone speaks wrong, or ill of you wish him well. Which means that if you disrespect another art or its existence, or down another art, or speak ill of it directly or indirectly you are breaking a major tenet of Sil Lum Martial arts and will receive your reward.

This is Tao. Tao is also the laws of Nature which is Justice. Justice is the reward or penalty for ones ways and actions. So if you do good your Qi as well the Qi of your ancestors, your art, system, mind, etc. will reward you in the form of new knowledge, wisdom, understanding, health, longevity, etc.. If you do evil (speak bad about other lineages, people, their views, etc.) penalty will be your reward (which will be confusion, insanity, bad luck, or even death). This is the way. Tao. CMA, and JMA, or any other art for that matter. I wish you a wonderful journey in the Tao. If someone speaks ill of you. Respect him still. Be like water. This is the way. If you learn this you will be crysal clear like water....and like a prism...the light (truth) of the ancients will be made known to you.

A mi to fu!

[L D S]

To Niko:
If you really have something to say in this discussion, please do. But 3 times the same posting in a short period of time is boring. Bogosity repeated!

Do you know who your master is? Please tell this forum about him. We are curious.

Ling

[Costas]

Martin Sewer
I deeply believe; that you are only interesting for your minor and underground purposes. You have to be ashamed.

You are intriguer, your post have logic BUT no have true. Explaining this philological lesson, I have to say that: For to be REAL anything must have two things, Logic and True. The Logic has to do with the way that the people understand the things.
The True has to do with Reality, the Facts are reality and nobody can change that.

The facts and the positions are presented, the people understand what they believe that is the correct and the subject is already consumed.
Now you are arising again the same unpleasant matter!!! Really what do you want to promote?
If you spend more energy in your practice and in your school, as everybody else done the last months, you will find the best way to prove that you are the correct or the BEST one.

About your questions, they have been already answered in the Lam’s family and its senior disciples Websites.

Few things I have say to the members of this forum (talking for my self and my sifu):

The Lam family and its senior students didn’t start this problem. Their responds was their official statement in a specific wicked publication.

The Lam family doesn’t care what sifu Chiu Chi Ling want to believe for his self. The problem stays in his improper behavior to our sikung Lam Cho. If he presented only his believes without using improper words and expressions? No any problem exists.

The Lam family had these evidences for many years, but never publish them for two reasons:
1. Because these claims stayed in particular schools only.
2. Because didn’t like to arise more problems than the benefits and to hurt our beautiful art.

As far as I know my sikung Lam Chun Fai is willing to meet and talk with anyone in order to promote Hung Gar, including sifu Chiu Chi Ling. Now I hear from Klaas that sifu C.C.L tried to meet my sikung (which is only C.C.L assertion) but after his publication which is REALLY started the problem.
And there is a question, why C.C.L’s wish for this meeting comes after his publication and not before? In other words, why after he started the problem and not before for to solve an expected problem.

The important thing is the Kung Fu and personality level and not who is learned from whom. If anyone of us make better his self? This world will be better and our kids will find a better world.

Sifu Costas Alexopoulos

[bean curd]

i am aware that your post was to martin, please don't take offense to my entering your post addressed to him.

since you are close to the subject matter (?), you have said allot, and it would be interesting to discuss each matter individually, but only one at this time is of interest.

you say that lam chun fai si, will meet and discuss the matter with anyone??

now taking out the issue of who did what first, as from both sides it is clear, that each would point the finger at the other, the question i will ask is this.

by your words, paraphrasing lam chun fai si, "he will meet with anyone to discuss the matter", can you explain to me, why only yee chi wai si and lam chun fai si where at the meeting in boston, and none of the other names on the joint statement where invited or informed officially???

it would also be interesting to know, why it took some persuasion for lam chun fai si, to agree to the meeting, and with short notice he accepted.

even though the acceptance was short, it would have still been enough time for others to have been invited.

it would have seemed obvious,logical and truthfull for such a situation to have happened that all memebers would have been invited and made aware of the meeting, yet even though "some" where aware and being polite, where waiting for the "invitation" it was not forth coming.

would be interested in your views on the matter!!!

please also refrain from outbursts of personal attack, it is an innocent question, anything agressive would appear "low class".

looking forward to your reply in advance

[vewong]

I do not understand why people think that harmony can be have by shutting up. In this democratic society, more harm than good is done if issues are not raised, discussed and resolved. It certainly make people feel safer by not publicizing murder cases, but that is bad for the society.

The truth must be found so that current and future generations are not fooled by twisted history. If you are trying to hide the facts for your personal gain, you are destroying the great history of Hung Gar, and over 50 years of damage has been done! If you did nothing wrong, why are you afraid of people talking about it?

To resolve this issue quickly, give out the proves. Documents, pictures, etc. all works. This way, it is easy to know what really happened between Lam Jo, Chan Hon Chung, Chiu Kau, etc.

[Tao]

Ling,
My master is the true knowledge in the development of one's self. It is so unfortunate that there is so much arrogance, ignorance, pride and ego in some many postings. So much time is spent on bickerings, debates, about lineages, past beefs, etc. It is so easy to put someone down, disrespect someone, make conflict, etc. It is more difficult for a man to uplift someone, make friendships, etc.

It is said that in the old days when one mastered the art of fighting, there was no reason to fight anymore because he couldnt be defeated. So one concentrated on the art of healing. Healing the sick through medicine, the weak through kung fu, healing old beefs between sifus and classmates, etc.

A fool never has anything positive to say, constantly disrespects people, encourages conflicts, causes trouble, etc. and lives a short life (enemies, bad health, miserable spirit). A wise person always has something positive to say (even in a bad situation), respects people, encourages harmony, etc. and lives a long life (friends, good health, peaceful spirit).

Peace

[L D S]

If your master is the true knowledge in the development of one's self he must be a saint or a bag full of ....

Why is he using Kung Fu as a vehicle in the development of one's self?

Your master, and his name is still unknown to us, is probably not sending his students to tournaments, but sending his students out in the world, on the street, in newsgroups, and to these forums, to spread the gospel.

The gospel of the master whose name and style is unknown, and whose lineage is not important.

AMEN to that!!!

Ling

[South Paw]

I stated before: ...What wonders me is that there are still some Hung Gar sites which have "official statements", "historical lineage", "special letters", etc.

We all know that there is this historical clarification on Chiu Chi Ling's website. This statement of Chiu Chi Ling we don't find repeated on the websites of his students.
But what I noticed lately is that the statements of the Lam family are repeated by a lot of websites that are affiliated to the Lam Family.
How come?

Klaas

aka

South Paw

[gambokyin]

The purpose of this is to share with you a formal statement signed by Master Chiu Wai regarding these discussions about his father Grand Master Chiu Kau. Before you begin, I apologize for the length of this article. However it is necessary so that the full context is clearly understood. We do not have a website on which to put this for reference.

Firstly, who am I to be submitting this article on behalf of Chiu Wai? I will explain this to you after the end of the article.

_____________________________________
HERE IS THE ARTICLE FROM CHIU WAI:

To Whom It May Concern
Recently I, Chiu Wai, have been informed about the argument between my youngest brother, Chiu Chi Ling, and the Lam family. I am surprised to see this argument has surfaced again after 35 years. In August 1965, Chiu Kau and several kung fu brothers of the Lam Sai Wing School made an announcement through two Hong Kong newspapers, namely HK Seung Bo and HK Sing Bo, in which they denied the claim that Master Lam Cho was their sifu.

My father, Chiu Kau, had told me he learnt his Hung Gar style from Master Lam Sai Wing. In February 1931, Chiu Kau and Siu Ying (whose real name was Wong Sou Nang) became students of Master Lam Sai Wing at the “Lam Sai Wing Kwok Sutt Sair”, Second Branch School. Lam Sai Wing’s student, Tang Hin Choi, was the head instructor at the branch school, located at ground floor of 28 Parkers Street in the Kwun Chun district of Kowloon, Hong Kong. Though he was 70 years old, Master Lam Sai Wing still taught me at the school three times a week (i.e. Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays). All students at the school were students of Master Lam Sai Wing, not students of the instructor. In 1933, Lam Cho took over the post of Tang Hin Choi. It’s a fact that Tang Hin Choi and Lam Jo are indeed senior kung fu brothers to Chiu Kau and Siu Ying. Later, Lam Cho relocated his own school to a new location. Many kung fu brothers did visit and train at the new location frequently. Hence, the Pek Kwa broadsword set could be passed along from Master Lam Cho to his fellow kung fu brothers at the time he was the head instructor of the branch school or when Chiu Kau practiced at Lam Cho’s school.

As for the group photos taken in 1936 and 1938 with Chiu Kau and Siu Ying wearing uniforms of Lam Cho’s school, one should know that the photos were taken at the functions under Lam Cho’s school. It was common practice that people with the same kung fu style would help out each other during certain demonstrations or shows. It would be odd if Chiu Kau and Siu Ying wore something different from the others in a function of the Lam Cho’s school.

Both Siu Ying and Lam Cho are still alive in Hong Kong. Siu Ying is 97 years old and Lam Cho is 90 years old. I definitely don’t want any further argument between the two families. We should respect each other and dedicate ourselves to the teaching and promotion of the Hung Gar style.

Through the www.hungkuen.8m.com (http://www.hungkuen.8m.com) website, I have also noticed some false claims about my late father, Chiu Kau. I have to clarify that:
1. My parents, Chiu Kau and Siu Ying, were not the earliest disciples of Master Lam Sai Wing. There is no proof that they were his prominent students either.
2. Chiu Kau was not one of the “Ten Tigers of Canton”.
3. Chiu Kau was not the best in Hung Gar style. Nobody should allow the use of such arrogant adjective as “the best”. Who is qualified to give such judgment? On what basis is the judgment given?

Yours truly,
Chiu Wai
END OF ARTICLE FROM CHIU WAI.
_____________________________________

Now to explain who I am and how I fit into the lineage:
Daily throughout my whole life I have been dedicated to and trained in the Chinese Martial Arts. As a child in Australia I had the misfortune to be wheel chair bound after birth, until a little-known, kind, humble and knowledgeable Chinese Martial Arts teacher neighbor took an interest in me, and after many years of his rigorous training, perseverance and encouragement helped me to walk. Without his interest and devotion, and the martial arts, I would still likely be wheel chair bound. After that, from age 14, I formally began the journey learning the Chinese Martial Arts, under a promise that I would never stop and would always pass on my knowledge. To this day I continue to honor that promise, after 40 years of dedication, and will do so for the remainder of my life. I am currently 54. I came to Hong Kong in 1987 in search of one of the world’s prominent Hung Gar teachers, and happily since 1988 until now I have been a student of the Chiu Wai family branch of Hung Gar here in Hong Kong, and currently also have my own students. As you are aware Chiu Wai has been living in Canada for the last few years. I regard my current Sifu to be one of Chiu Wai’s sons Chiu Kwok Kei. This article is not about me, although I wanted to set the scene so that you know where I fit in the Chiu family tree of Hung Gar. Just for the record, there may be some out there who remember me with Master Chan Hon Chung in Hong Kong – yes I did know him, attended his 81st birthday several years before he passed away, and he in fact personally taught me for just a few short months.

I had the pleasure of knowing Chiu Kau until he passed away in 1995 at age 100, and have very fond memories of him as a practitioner and person. At his funeral in Hong Kong, I witnessed the huge number of people that attended which is indeed endorsement of his high respect in the community.

I have found these articles over recent months about Hung Gar lineage very distasteful, and have discussed it with Chiu Kwok Kei (Chiu Wai’s son), who has in turn talked with his brother Chiu Kwok Keung and father Chiu Wai in Canada. As a result I hold the above document signed by Master Chiu Wai himself and written in English by Chiu Kwok Keung on his behalf about this subject, and have been asked to share it with you. If any of you need proof it was written by Chiu Wai, feel free to contact him or the family members, or I can send you a copy.

I am very keen to see this argument put to rest. History is full of misunderstandings and opinions, and as humans we generally do not go through life gathering evidence for everything we do just in case someone may question something at a future date.

Like many of you my life has been devoted to Chinese Martial Arts, and I prefer to hold on to the fond, positive and personal memories of Grand Master Chiu Kau. As mentioned earlier, I have a special personal reason for my lifelong devotion to martial arts and therefore to uphold its honorable name and character. Let us all refrain from the negativity that seems to have prevailed in recent months, and put our energy into the promotion of what brings us together as a family (Hung Gar), rather than its disparagement.

Again I apologize for the length of this, and look forward to us all putting things to rest to continue with our devotion to the style and the behavioral qualities it promotes.

Gam Bok Yin, Sifu
(aka: Dr. Graham Player)
Hong Kong
_____________________________________

[namkuen]

I am the senior student of Chiu Chi Ling sifu's current U.S. class, and I have read your statements about not discussing this issue of lineage clarification. Although I greatly respect and understand your position, even greater do I disagree with the agruement that the issue should be left alone.

Hung Gar is known for its integrity and honor, but when the truth is twisted and turned into lies for one family's exaltation, then those virtues of integrity and honored are greatly stained and eventually lost.

Furthermore, if the truth of the lineage is not resolved, then there is no truth to pass down to the next generation and to the next, and so forth.

Therefore, there is much more at stake here then just arguments of lineage; there is the integrity and honor of the past, present, and future Hung Gar practitioners.

Concerning, the "agreement" between Yee Wai Chi si kung and Lam Jo si tai kung, that sounds like mere "white washing" to me. To let every Hung Gar family have its own history of lineage, is to let each Hung Gar sect portray the history as it best suits that particular sect. I'm sorry, but that's not how the truth is nor should be. The truth is constant. It is the thread that runs through time. It is not changed by preferences nor for one family's exaltation. As Hung Gar practitioners, we should uphold the truth whether or not it's in our favor. That's the basis of honor and integrity within Hung Gar!

Peace!!!

DWR

[This message was edited by DWR on 07-10-01 at 12:08 PM.]