Gao style and self defense...

[Zenwalker]

I have been studying two Pa Kua styles for several years now including Gao's style. I've never practiced Hsing I but am interested in any similarities there may be, as like Hsing I, Gao focuses on line drills and self defense.

Also, I understand that Hsing I develops real fighting ability in a relativly quick fashion when compared to other internal arts like Tai Chi Ch'uan and pure pre birth Pa Kua. Gao style is also reported to be readily applicable to fighting (though obviously real internal power will still take 'lots of dilligent practice). Any thoughts or success stories in the self defense arena would be greatly appreciated. :)

Also, I recently read an interesting book entitled Taking it to the Street: how to make your martial art street effective, by Marc "Animal" McYoung. In it, McYoung explains his theory that TMA training is like military boot camp.

It gives you the nuts and bolts of basic marksmanship, how to move through a jungle etc. but when the soldier hits the combat zone, he's gotta field strip. You didn't see a whole lotta guys marching formation through the jungles of 'Nam in spit shinned boots and eighty pound packs full of wool blankets and parade uniforms. Likewise, according to McYoung, the TMA needs to cut through the formality and any impractical (i.e. difficult to make work in a fight) techniques when he takes his art to the MZ. Any thoughts on this?

[Crimson Phoenix]

What is practical, what isn't??? How to judge?? Something can be unpractical for you, yet perfectly natural for an other...
Also, are techniques in traditional sequences designed to be applied as is, or should you first catch the spirit, the soul of the technique and then apply it, when you have gotten a hold of its marrow? Some techniques in tao are meant to be taken litterally, some are just meant to say "hey, in that case don't forget that you can also try to...". Hard to judge...
Here's my point: it's hard to know what's really practical, what's flowery and what's not in traditional MA.
Often did my bagua sifu show me very vicious and simple applications to moves that seemed really pointless or flowery...same thing with some white crane jings that could turn into many techniques while still keeping their heart, even if their form changed a little...
Same with the silat I saw, which intricate and twisted forms translated in pure and rough combat application, without, as the guys alwyas showed me, needing to distort them to make them fit to the necessities of combat: once again the form could change, but the heart of the technique was untouched.
IMHO, you (when I say you, I mean "people", me included) should never change the heart of the technique passed down to you: if you have to deeply change what has been passed on for countless years (meaning time tested) to make it work for you it means something very simple: you just didn't get it...you may have the bone, but you don't have the marrow

[kungfu cowboy]

Anybody who goes by _______ "Animal" ________ gives me pause for thought.

[Walter Joyce]

Just curious, what lineage of Gao style and where do you train?
I beleive this would have a direct influence on your ability to apply your system in a self-defense situation.

[MonkeySlap Too]

It's funny, but often the people deciding what is uaeful and what isn't do not have very much experience.

Marc MacYoung does have experience however - a great deal of martial arts that you find out there are pretty far removed from reality. This has been changing as teachers who know the 'real' stuff open up, as well as the impact of MMA. No one wants to think the art they devoted time to is crippled by ritual, but there are boatloads of this.

The questions you have to ask is who is teaching you and does thier experience jive with what they say they are teaching.

Marc means well and offers some great lessons, just in a 'less-couth' manner. I don't know him personally, but an associate of mine does. That guy is very 'upright', and he likes Marc, so the "animal" nickname can't be all bad.

[Zenwalker]

Crimson said:
"What is practical, what isn't??? How to judge??"

I didn't use the word practical, but it's just as good as any. Some of the movements in Pa Kua are more applicable to combat IMO because they naturally adapt to a wide variety of fighting movements. To give you an example, "Monkey Offers the Peach", aka "Lotus Palms" has many very powerful combat applications, but it's a realitivly limited movement that applies to a very specific fight situation. You need to have placed your opponent in a position where it can be used effectivly i.e. where his targets will meet your palms.

However, "Green Dragon Turns Head" can be used in a greater variety of tactical situations because it's an extremly flexible movement. You can use "Green Dragon" as a gaurd, as many different strikes, a series of joint locks, many take downs, throws, as a stop hit, body check, trapping movement etc.

Simply by lifting your hands into the "Green Dragon" posture, you are gaurding your centerline and placing yourself in a position of strength from which to launch your own attacks. That's why EVERY style of Pa Kua I've ever seen uses that movment so much. I judge it to be very practical.

The same cannot be said for "Monkey Offers the Peach" however. I've trained in three styles of Pa Kua. Zhang's style dosen't use it at all. Liang style features it only once in the Lao Pa Chang. Gao uses "Monkey Offers" several times, but no where near the amount of repititions you will find in "Green Dragon". That's because there are far fewer applications to the movement, and it's more difficult to make work spontaneously in a fight. I therefore judge it to be less practical.

See, what I'm getting at here is that in a fight, there are many opportunities to make mistakes, so why make risky moves when a simpler, more powerful option is available? I guess I'm just remembering the old internal adage: "It's better to do a few things well, then ten thousand poorly.". I'm looking for a way to focus on efficiency in my Pa Kua.

Crimson said:

"You should never change the heart of the technique that was passed down to you..."

Also, when I said "modify" I meant "pick out the universally applicable techniques and drill them". I wouldn't begin to know where to start "changing" my art, nor do I have the desire to do so.

Walter Joice:

"What lineage of Gao style, and where do you train? I believe this would have a direct influence on your ability to apply your system in a self defense situation."

I know my Liang and Zhang lineage very well, not so with the Gao. I studied Gao style with Vince Black and Jeff Thornbloom for a few years in the early nineties. (This was before Vince moved to Arizona) The North American Tang Shou Tao used to stage yearly full contact internal tournements. We would fight using little or no protective gear and there wern't many rules. I have yet to find a comparable hard core level of training elsewhere, but I'm still looking! :D

Monkey Slap Too:

Indeed, I do believe that MacYoung knows his stuff. As stated above, my training has been largely combat oriented, but I'm still curiuos as to what specifically my colleagues in the Pa Kua circle do to prepare for combat.

What techniques do we deem most effective? How do we apply our art in real life? What strengths do we exploit in our art? What weaknesses do we need to shore up?

I realize these are fairly abstract and high level questions, but I'd like to see some thought in this area.




Zenwalker

[count]

First of all, welcome to the forums Zenwalker. I have to disagree strongly with what you are saying. If some movements in bagua are not as applicable it is because of you, not the entire system. Some people are better suited to monkey and some better suited to hawk but neither has more or less practical useage. There are many practical uses for Monkey Offers the Fruit other than a double palm strike. Look where your elbows are when you are closing and where your forarms are when you open up. Even boxers can use their elbows to parry and open up a straight line for a strike. No, I would say this is a most natural and direct method to defend yourself with. I agree with Mr. Joyce to a point. It can be hard in many locations to get good bagua. I have heard good things about Vince Black though. How long did you spend with him?

[Chris McKinley]

Hi Zenwalker,

Welcome to the forum. I study/teach primarily Gao style Baguazhang. My teaching perspective is entirely devoted to reality combat.....street use, not NHB. The primary thrust of this original post seems to be to ask whether Gao Baguazhang is directly applicable to street self-defense situations, if I understood you correctly. If that is the question, my answer would be a resounding YES.

I can see the merit in the points that both you and count have raised. You spoke of 'field stripping' your Bagua to make it high-speed, low-drag for the streets. Bagua works just fine on that level. Perhaps in contrast to how the internal arts are typically portrayed, Bagua has numerous responses that can fall into the 'learn it today, use it today on the way home' category. Of course, that mode of thinking caters primarily to the beginner to the art. However, I think it is a useful policy for even the highly advanced practitioner to have a reliable stock of highly familiar basic responses that are burned in until they're second nature. This should function as a baseline of ability since on the street, basic technique, done well, is king.

With that in mind, count still brings up a valid point. Bagua is an art that is worth plumbing the depths. While it's often the case that direct unaltered application of certain postures is sometimes challenging, it should lead us to ask questions like, "how else might I use this movement?" or "where else might this type of energy be useful?". I'm constantly surprised by serendipitous discoveries within the forms. Things I thought were too narrowly context-specific sometimes aren't. Or I'll find an entirely new use for something that I thought I had already thoroughly explored. This process of discovery is part of what keeps the internal arts fresh even as a lifelong pursuit.

In addition, each posture or form also develops/trains a specific use of energy. Even if the movement, as is, isn't as widely functional as one might like, the energy usage it contains can often still generalize to other contexts.

Bottom line: safety first -- develop a small, dependable arsenal of basics...i.e., the field stripped version. This is the stuff that will save your hide in the short term. After and while doing so, don't neglect to invest in long-term exploration of the entire art, delving into things that don't give up their treasures immediately can be a very rewarding experience and will mean the difference between a martial artist who reaches a functional degree of fighting competence quickly, then plateaus, and one who continues to grow over the years.

[Zenwalker]

Thanks for the welcome gentlemen. Actually, I don't disagree with you at all Count. Though much of what I have said thus far seems to contradict that statment, I am all for developing a high degree of Kung Fu in Pa Kua, and hope to do so in this lifetime. Plumbing the depths is great.

Remember the referance to Hsing I though? I have never trained in Hsing I personally, but I am utterly intrigued with the notion of studying five basic movements for self defense. I don't have any intention of training in Hsing I at this time, but I've actually started to examine Zhang and Liang's Single Palm change for the same reason.

Do you think the Single Palm change may be Pa Kua's version of the five element fists (ie combat, Pa Kua style, shortened to eight basic movements)? Sifu always told us that we should practice this form more than any other set as it would "lead to mastery". I don't think anyone ever really took it to heart, but I've been evaluating the set myself and believe I may be starting to understand "the secret hidden in plain view".

Also Count, I'm not saying that Pa Kua is a flawed system, or that some of it's techniques don't work. You yourself said something to the effect that "the problem isn't with the system, it's with you.". That is true. I used to have a fellow student who was missing a hand due to amputation. That dosen't mean that all Pa Kua techniques that use two hands suck, it just means they won't work the same way (if at all) for him.

I'm not Jet Li or Sun Lu Tang, so I may never be able to efficiently exploit Pa Kua's full martial potential. Fortunately, the art is flexible enough that I can make it work for me, but there are still techniques that may always be difficult for me to perform. I accept that, and keep trying anyway.

Chris, where do you teach? I would love to come check out one of your classes. To be honest, I'm not too satisfied having trained alone for a few years and might be relocating to a more Pa Kua friendly local! Yes, as I mentioned above, I'm starting to see a basic repetitive pattern to the forms I know. The Single Palm change may provide a very convienient way to train a "field stripped" version of the art. I probably need some guidance from a qualified teacher though. Anyhow, thanks for the input.

Oh yeah, and I studied for three years with Vince. Whew! Am I done now?

:p

Zenwalker

[count]

Just to clarify and answer some of your questions, I was basically saying that you should focus on your strengths, but don't ignore your weaknesses. If you are short, certain aspects of monkey or lion would serve you well. If you are tall, hawk and pheonix techniques are more efficient.

I don't study Hsing-I, and to be specific you would have to clarify your understanding of what a "single palm change is", but I would only agree to a point. Practicing our 8 mother palms form covers all of bagua's basic energies, ie: the five elements, and also teaches single palm change. But other sets add power issuing, double palm change, legs, elbows, etc., etc. Might spend some time to master only one change of lion palm, but there is so much more.

I don't think borrowing from other systems training methods and techniques is the answer to making your bagua work. It only adds more to digest.

BTW, Chris is in Oklahoma. Where are you located?

[Zenwalker]

I'm very tired tonight, so I'll keep this short. I don't see any reason to add anything from another art. I'm not suggesting I should cross train, less material is the goal, not more.

It seems rather obvious to me that a fighter who spends time developing skill in a relativly concentrated area of his training, one bite at a time, is better off than one who attempts to master an entire system in one chunk.

I have historically spent two hours or more a day going through every form, technique, and exercise I have ever learned in my practice sessions. I spar once a week or so, wieght train, and run. Still, I feel like a diletante, because it's been nearly impossible to link all of this together into a coherent and h0mogenous training methodology. (Very silly that the system ersed h0mo from h0mogeonous, what kind of board is this anyway?)

Basically, I'm looking to get "back to the basics" in order to focus on fighting skill, which is what brought me to Pa Kua, rather than focus on Pa Kua for Pa Kua's sake. That's not good enough anymore, you know what I mean? I don't care about how pretty I look, or how strong my "Chi" is flowing, or how linked with the Tao I am. These things come of thier own accord, you can't force enlightenment, and good health is fleeting.

Fighting skill, on the other hand, is one measure of our art's effectivness that seems to be in decline. I do not wish to add to that by failing to test myself, and failing to train from a fighter's perspective.

Ah well, perhaps the answers I am seeking will come with further reflection and training, I was just hping for a finger to point out the moon, so to speak.

[Chris McKinley]

Zenwalker,

Sorry for the tardy response. I teach Baguazhang in Moore, Oklahoma at USA Stars Foundation. I wouldn't exactly call Oklahoma a Bagua-friendly state. There is really only one other Bagua person here with any real depth of knowledge or skill, and he doesn't communicate with other martial artists out of what can only be considered arrogance and discourtesy.

I'm not precisely sure what it is you're looking for, but you might ask around for instructors in your area to see if there are any who teach from a combat perspective. There aren't many of us in the whole country who do, but it might be worth asking. Anyway, good luck.