Are San Shou competitors practicing REAL Kung Fu?

[Merryprankster]

Are the people who practice and focus on San Shou competitions practicing Kung Fu?

I ask the question because it's been made clear that success for tournaments of any kind require intense focus on the rules of those tournaments, to the exclusion of other types of techniques and training--you get good at what you train for, in other words.

Can a San Shou competitor claim to be doing Kung Fu?

[shaolinboxer]

Well, it comes from china, requires hundreds of hours of intense training, and can be used in a myriad of ways (many effective self defense techniques, character building intensity, etc).

I'd vote yes.

[Le nOObi]

I say its kung-fu too.

[dezhen2001]

kung fu=skill acquired through time and lots of practise, so yes :) But again it depends what you mean...

david

[Suntzu]

I train both… I will admit that some of my koushu translate bady in the ring… but that is because I don’t train my kuoshu techniques like I do my boxing… due to gloves some grabs are rendered useless but the fundementals are still there… footwork is still there(or should be) concepts still there... for instance my style teaches attacking on angles thru sidestepping... that wont have a problem in the ring if u drill it for the ring(which i need to work on)... some of the 'softer' ways of blocking that i am taught(hooking the leg etc) translates well... it may not look like Mei Hua Chuan but i think its Kung Fu...

it wont work if you don’t work on it…

[Merryprankster]

denzhen2001---

let's use it in the 'common' application of Kung Fu being more or less equivalent to Chinese Martial Arts.

Let's ask a better question in case we get the Kung Fu is a system and San Shou a competition format--Does San Shou demonstrate that CMA produces competent fighters? (ie, that they can fight, and fight well?)

[Braden]

This question always confuses me.

Sanshou is a competition format; something you compete in. Kungfu is one of many training systems; something you train in. They are different categories of things, so inclusionary and exclusionary statements about them don't make any sense.

[dezhen2001]

MP, no problem :) The answer is still yes for me. It's something created in China and exported all over. It's a ring sport and a combat skill.

I think Kung Fu has many faces and enough diversity for everyone to enjoy [edit: San Shou being one of them] :)

david

[Merryprankster]

Braden--I appreciate your point, and edited my comments while you were posting... sorry.

But, let's phrase it thusly--can somebody who trains for San Shou--more or less only for that--be considered to be doing Kung Fu?

[Liokault]

Well I am going to disagree with every one here and say no they are not doing kung fu.

1/ You need to play to the rules to win.

2/ You wear golves.....I do not care what anyone says once you put gloves on you hit like a boxer. It also stops any real grabing or palm strikes.

3/ Most pro guys (from what I read) in san shou are not even from kung fu.

Also lots of the chinese pro guys are not kung fu but are taking parts from other non chinese styles such as boxing and TKD.

I read a break down on some top Chinese san shou guys and they all did boxing TKD for kicks and mongolian wrestling for throws!!! I think this is because they are fast tracked and its quicker than spending 5 years learning mantis.

In all my san shou fights I can not think of one other guy I fought who would have called him self a traditional kung fu guy!!!

Many called there style freestyle kung fu some were just thai boxers some were just kick boxers and (sadly) now some guys are starting to train in san shou as a style rather than a format!!!

I can only think of 1 guy I ever saw take a traditional Kung fu stance on the lei tai (I know his teacher but I can not remember his style). He (a tall think guy fighting a stocky kick boxer) stood in his same stiff stance with a fruriouse look on his face as he got knocked over repeatedly by the kick boxer!!!! A brave guy but not a fast learner.


Haveing said all that I belive that there is a lot to be gained from both training for san shou and competeing in it. It is also huge fun and as long as you know what you are getting into can provide a huge confidance boost to your training ....going up against thai boxers,kick boxers,other kung fu guys and if not winning then at least not getting knocked out.

[Suntzu]

as far as the san shou movement in the US… I think san shou proves that the US can produce competant fighter under sportive "KUNG FU" rules(but i'm just thinking about it on a larger scale here)… as for how many come from and train 'traditionally,' I don’t think many but I could be wrong…

actually San Shou is modern wu shu, so i should say "wu shu" rules:rolleyes: :D ... and why isn't it gonna be in the olympics???? but thats another thread...

Edit- just read the previous reply - and I stand in my 'traditional fighting stance' especially when I get tired:D

[Merryprankster]

I wasn't specifically looking for the US, but good point SunTzu.

[Braden]

It depends what they're doing.

It's like if you ask "Can someone who's eating ice cream be eating dessert?" Ice cream and dessert are not the same categories of things, so you can't make the above a question about equivalency. You have to know more about the 'person' than the fact he's eating ice cream to answer the question. Dessert is what you call when you eat a sweet foodstuff as the ending course of a multi-course meal in the evening; if we follow convention anyway. If someone's eating ice cream as a snack in between classes, they're not eating dessert. If they're eating ice cream as a sweet foodstuff as the ending course of a multi-course meal, they are. In other words, whether or not eating ice cream happens to be eating dessert depends entirely upon whether or not the person happens to be fulfilling the requirements for 'eating dessert'; in other, other words, the only information the question explicitly supplies (that ice cream is being eaten) turns out not to contribute whatsoever to any meaningfull answer.

Sub 'sanshou' for 'ice cream' and 'kungfu' for 'dessert.'

Or, simply, whether or not someone training entirely for sanshou is doing kungfu is dependent entirely upon whether or not the methods that constitute their training happen to be kungfu [def: one of many systems of training methods]. (So, the sanshou part of it contributes nothing to the meaningfullness of the statement, and once you remove it, you can a simple statement of equivalency).

If someone is mixing and matching training methods; say for example they circlewalk and do a hubud lubud - do we say they're training in bagua or kali? Provided they spend enough time in each 'art' in question, and cover at least the fundamentals, I think everyone would be happy saying they practice both/all of them.

[dezhen2001]

Interesting, but i think this comes down to words and the meaning they have for you.

Kung Fu can mean many things: Skill developed through hardship and time, a general blanket name for all types of chinese martial arts, 'traditional CMA' as oppose to 'Wushu'... all of the above, none of the above...

It's like asking is Muay Thai like traditional Thai MA? (Krabee Krabong i think???). I'm sure there are a lot of differences, even though it may have come from that source. For a start MT doesn't trian in things like swords, sword and shield... no headbutts (as far as i know, correct me if i'm wrong) etc.

For me, is it Traditional CMA?: Nope. Is it CMA?: Yup. Does it produce good fighters?: Yup. Does it show that CMA produces competent fighters?: Yup, in some respects. Does it bother me what others think?: Nope :p

:)
david

[SifuAbel]

What is Kung Fu supposed to look like? Doesn't kung fu include kicking, striking and throwing? Does KF really need to look like a run run shaw film? You can't transfer ability, footwork and movement to san shou? Does it really matter that you strike with a punch rather than "tiger claw"? Is it not still a strike?

[Suntzu]

a kick is a kick, a punch is a punch, a throw is a throw… as my coach once told me 'if it works use it'… if a judo teacher can teach you throws why not??? If a TKD guy/gal can help you with the kicks, why not, etc. Is it really that important that it be 'kung fu'??? anyway in the comming years san shou will be its own style... you'll go to a gym and they'll teach Mantis, Wing Chun and san shou... oh, they already do that...

DAGONIT… sifu said it first…:mad: :p :D

[Merryprankster]

Braden--

But Ice Cream is commonly a dessert food--if we follow convention, anyway. This is why people use phrases like "yeah, I had dessert for breakfast."

It doesn't tell them if they are eating a dessert COURSE, but it does tell them if they are eating a dessert FOOD.

Similarly, is a person practicing more or less FOR San Shou comps eating a "Kung Fu Food?" OR are they eating "Some other kind of Food?"

Secondly if you don't like the comparison based on an apples and oranges sort of reason, then what about the addendum--Does San Shou demonstrate that CMA produces competant fighters?

[Liokault]

Just to amend my post I can now think of 1 tradtional chinese guy that I have fought in san shou....He beat me to. He was a Wing Chun guy and he just kept ducking rushing in and grabing me just above the waist then pushing me off the lei tai....thats n ot what I call wing chun!!

I still say that most guys doing san shou are not from kung fu. Cung le , Marvin Perry are the most obviouse 2


Also Braden san shou is becoming a style in the same way that semi contact karate/kung fu became freestyle karare.

Their are lots of places that will teach you somthing called san shou in America (again Cung Le) and 2 weekends ago I fought this guy (and beat him in straight rounds LOL) who when I asked him his style told me san da!!!! Thats the first one i have met in the UK and its somthing I find depressing.

I think that this will go the same way as wu shu dancing where trad guys can no longer compete..... The guys who only train in san shou will have the training and the rules so well stitched up that trad guys who train in the whole system will no longer be able to compete!!!!!

[Suntzu]

Does San Shou demonstrate that CMA produces competant fighters?

if the san shou fighter is from CMA, than yes it proves the CMA produces good fighters… just like if the fighter if from TKD than it shows that TKD produces good fighters…

... and its not nessesarily a bad thing that its becoming its own style… san shou is san shou just like kickboxing was karate or whatever now its just kickboxing…

[Suntzu]

The guys who only train in san shou will have the training and the rules so well stitched up that trad guys who train in the whole system will no longer be able to compete!!!!!
than they should train san shou if they wanna compete… just like if a san shou guy wants ta compete in forms than he should train his forms…

[Braden]

Use an analogy that works better then. Like 'wooden posts' for kungfu and 'being black' for sanshou.

Does what about sanshou show CMAs produce good fighters? It's existance? No. That someone who does well in sanshou does well in another contest? No. That the best sanshou guy is a good fighter? No. That the average sanshou guy is a good fighter? No. Why? Because we don't know simply from 'sanshou' that the person happens to practice a CMA. As has been pointed out, alot of sanshou people actually happen to train in kickboxing, wrestling, and boxing.

What if a high school wrestler decides he's really into MAs when he graduates; starts taking boxing lessons and attending a university wrestling club. A few years later he decides he wants to compete, looks around, and decides sanshou is the venue for him. He really works hard boxing and wrestling to prepare himself for this venue, then he starts competing. Some people would have you believe he is a kungfu man, which is clearly ridiculous.

Conversely, take someone graduates high school having never done a martial art. He decides he wants to take one up, and finds a seven star preying mantis school he really likes, and trains there for three years, then decides he wants to compete in sanshou. He works really hard in his mantis class to prepare, and then starts competing. Some people would have you believe he is not a kungfu man, which is clearly ridiculous.

What if we take this same guy, you might ask, only he doesn't join the preying mantis school, he joins some class called 'sanshou.' Well, what do we say about him? We would say the same thing about him as if he took a class called 'martial arts,' which is to say it would depend entirely on what he was learning.

Traditionally speaking, sanshou is a term used for a generic training method used to achieve skill as part of most (all?) traditional chinese martial arts - basically equivalent to the term 'sparring' in english. Eventually, someone had the idea to get different fighters from far away to fight one another, and charge people to watch; and just like the people who got this idea here called it 'fighting championship', over there they ended up calling it 'sanshou.' The specific rules and culture caught on over here, and kept the same name, and now we have all this confusion.

Some people/school/classes call themselves 'sanshou.' In my mind, this is very similar to some people/school/classes calling themselves 'MMA' - in both cases it's a label that arose to describe someone training with a specific tournament format in mind (yeah yeah I know the objection allready; spare me for sake of discussion ;p ). Is it right to say that an MMAist is a wrestler? Well, it very well might be. And on the other hand, sometimes it's not. Same deal with sanshou and kungfu.

[Merryprankster]

Check your PM's Braden :)

Although I still disagree somewhat with your issue that they are these completely seperate entities. The fact is, they are intertwined, in the same way that Sport BJJ and Vale Tudo are intertwined. Exactly the same? Nope, but related and intertwined to some degree? Yup.

I'd REALLY like to avoid the semantics argument--you've made it abundantly clear that a CMA stylist COMPETES in San Shou, and that you do not think they are necessarily the same thing.

There's no need to argue about the nature of the analogy since we both understand each others points. Namely, that you see them as totally seperate entities--one a system, and one a venue, whereas I see them as being somewhat intertwined--not indistinguishable, but bearing more relationship to each other than you will give them.

[Archangel]

Does this apply for other venues as well. Is boxing a style or is it just a competition for people that punch. How about Muay Thai, anybody can compete in the ring; is it just a competion for strikers?

[Liokault]

Ok looking at it from another totaly differant point of veiw.

A guy who is very good at wing chun and who can fight very well in the street may well suck at san shou as he wears gloves and can only is constrained by the (at times really stupid) rules

Now a guy with minimal training but who is fit and agresive and whom understands the rules may well have a better chance than that wing chun guy.
this same guy would probably get his arse kicked by the wing chun guy in the street.



I feel that san shou is still very young (in the form we are talking about) and has a long way to go.

[Suntzu]

feel that san shou is still very young (in the form we are talking about) and has a long way to go.

like what???

[Braden]

AA - So long as it's not required for people training in the art to compete in the venue, and it's not required for people competing in the venue to train in the art - yes.

If a pure Muay Thai'er decided he would benefit from hard competition work on his hand techniques and started entering boxing tournaments, you wouldn't say he trained in boxing. And if an american kickboxer decided he wanted to explore in formal competition how well he could keep people from clinching and infighting, so started competing in Muay Thai, you wouldn't say he trained in Muay Thai.

Unless, I guess, if you thought the act of training in a competition with such rules was sufficient standards for being a practitioner of the art - just like I mentioned above in the case of someone practicing kali and bagua; it would make sense to say they do both provided they spend sufficient time on sufficiently fundamental stuff. So if you think stepping into a boxing ring is sufficiently fundamental stuff to be considered a boxer, then the whole argument makes perfect sense - call them a boxer.

Bringing it back to the topic at hand - stepping into a sanshou ring is most certainly not sufficient standards to call yourself a practitioner of any TCMA I'm familiar with, though.

[Nevermind]

MP, I think that San Shou and Kung Fu are two seperate entities. Sure, if you want to use the literal translation of the word, any martial skill that takes lots of hard work could be considered Kung Fu, even BJJ. However, that is not what I think you mean. San Shou is a sport that is sanctioned with Chinese rules. From what I have read, and if I am wrong I stand corrected, any style practitioner can participate in San Shou. Aren't some of the competitors from Muay Thai? I think since it is sanctioned by the Chinese, it gets labeled as Kung Fu. Plus I'm sure most of its practitioners have a background in traditional Kung Fu. The rules are what makes it San Shou, not the techniques per se. Anyway, just my two cents for what thats worth. Good topic by the way.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Merryprankster

Let's ask a better question in case we get the Kung Fu is a system and San Shou a competition format--Does San Shou demonstrate that CMA produces competent fighters? (ie, that they can fight, and fight well?)

Let's ask a better question in case we get the BJJ is a system and NHB a competition format--Does NHB demonstrate that BJJ produces competent fighters? (ie, that they can fight, and fight well?)

Maybe, but not necesarily

[Merryprankster]

Water--don't be touchy--I happen to agree with you.

I always take the sting out of your statements :D As you once mentioned, I'm no fun!

[crumble]

...you see them as totally seperate entities--one a system, and one a venue

I agree with this.

Let's face it, we tend not to separate the person from the style from the competition venue -- because we want to say "person x, trains in style y, therefore they will win/lose in venue z".

This type of discussion may have some relevance when talking among two friends about specific examples that both are knowledgible about... but the greater level of abstraction more more we have to keep in mind the real distinctions to be made between the person, the training, and the competition venue.

-crumble

[lkfmdc]

Oh my god, the things said in this thread, I guess ignorance does't stop people from having opinions.

Yeah, boxers, Thai boxers, kickboxers and wrestlers can and do compete in San Shou events, they almost always loose to people trained in REAL San Shou. Marvin Perry is pure San Shou and from Kung Fu originally, trained in long fist with Yang Jwing Ming and then with Jason Yee in pure San Shou fighting. Cung Le did OK with his wrestling and TKD until he had to play with the big boys, then he trained with Chinese national team to learn real San Shou.

punching, kicking, throwing, kick catching are all techniques found in tradtitional Chinese martial arts and I guarantee you when you see high level san shou you see throws and catches you can not see outside of CMA. Kung Fu isn't about tiger claws or blowing up chickens at 30 yards with Chi blasts. Never has been.

People who complain about the gloves usually couldn't beat a San Shou fighter if they took off the gloves anyway. Mike Altman only won one national title in San Shou yet won like five Kuoshu events. He completely outclasses the so called "traditional" guys

If you think San Shou fighters can only fight in the San Shou format you haven't seen San Shou fighters beat Muay Thai fighters under their rules or my team fight shootfighting or submission wrestling even. San Shou is about the quickest and most realistic road to acquiring skill in basic fighting techniques

[Liokault]

Suntzu

When I said It has a long way to go I mean that rules need to be clarified and set and agreed upon. I use a new set of rules every time I fight!!



Also people (in the UK at least) need to think about what they are doing before they fight san shou.
I have seen to mjany guys who did not have the stamina for it run out of steam by the end of the first round. I am also tired of the guys who come into it from a semi contact back ground clearly never haveing done any full contact before.

(not sure if all this applise out side the UK)

[Merryprankster]

lkfmdc--

Great post--but is San Shou, Kung Fu? That is, if you train San Shou, are you training Kung Fu?

I am not challenging that it is or isn't. I just want to know what you think.

[Suntzu]

Mike Altman only won one national title in San Shou yet won like five Kuoshu events. He completely outclasses the so called "traditional" guys

I think that has more to do with training methods… most 'traditional' schools(IMO) shun modern training methods… weight training etc… so that might have something to do with him 'outclassing' 'traditional' fighters… not to take anything away from Mike, he's a cool guy... also i could be dead wrong...

Liokault - so far I've been lucky enuff to fight with the same rule but I'm also relativly new so it might happen soon… I was just tryin to start a convo on how to improve san shou…and the running out of steam thing I've seen and admittedly done… but I think that some people just didn't know what to expect but that should be remidied after theyre first few fights… I know I'm hittin the track more now… but that's just an individual issue not really an issue with san shou as an organization so to speak...

[lkfmdc]

Depends on what you mean by "Kung Fu"

Is Kung Fu training in silk PJ's, believing practicing forms is the real way to train, disdaining from heavy bag and equipment work, thinking the new technique in the next form will make you deadly and bloxing up chickens with Chi blasts? Is so, thank god that san Shou is not kung fu

Is Kung Fu Chinese martial art with Chinese fighting theory? If so then yes, San Shou is Kung Fu. People compare us to Thai boxing, but note that Side kick is a huge part of San Shou and barely exists at all in Thai. The strategy, footwork and thinking is different.

Also, different san shou schools have different theory just like "traditional" arts....

[Water Dragon]

Merry, I think you misinterpreted my post. There's a big Can-O-Worms implied there such as:

1. Can "pure" BJJ win in NHB? If so, how do you define "pure".
2. If you must mix another art to competein NHB, does that make BJJ inefficient?
3. Because the Gracie's won the UFC in the early 90's, does that imply that BJJ practitioners are riding on the coattails of old war stories or legends?
4. What "style" of BJJ are we referring to here? (emphasis on BJJ comp, NHB, street defense?
5. Is there a difference between BJJ taught w/ Gracie Self Defense techniques and pure sport-oriented rolling? Is one "real" BJJ and the other not?

I think you see what I'm getting at. If you substitute the term "All Arts That Compete in NHB" for Gong Fu and NHB for San Shou, you get a truere perception of the question you asked.

[lkfmdc]

YOU MISS THE POINT ENTIRELY THEN!

San Shou is about the training method. Do you come in, dress up and spend most of your time doing forms? Or do you come in, dress however you feel, spend most of you time making contact with solid objects and working with partners?

Teh difference between san Shou and so called traditional is that now most "traditional" kung fu talks a lot about fighting but never does it. San Shou fights all the time

[Suntzu]

Is Kung Fu training in silk PJ's, believing practicing forms is the real way to train, disdaining from heavy bag and equipment work, thinking the new technique in the next form will make you deadly

good point… and I think that is the biggest issue with 'kung fu'… too many student think that there techniques will work and not enuff KNOW which ones will…


Teh difference between san Shou and so called traditional is that now most "traditional" kung fu talks a lot about fighting but never does it. San Shou fights all the time

and i agree...I was making the distinction that Mike outclassed them because he traind the way he did not just because it san shou(not that that's what you meant) but by the way he trained… if he was a muy thai guy he would maybe still have outclassed him… because of the way they train... just steering it away from style vs style... and it also doesn't mean that traditional techniques are worthless... just the way they train those techniques...

now I must go to the gym…

Is a NY team going to Born to Fight???

[Braden]

lkfmdc - Re: "Is kung fu silk pjs"

I think you stumbled over yourself trying to make this point. We all know very well what kungfu is - it's a term to describe traditional chinese martial arts. There's relatively no ambiguity here. I study baguazhang. Historical records show it was founded by one Dong Hai Chuan in the 1800s (can get actual date and place if you want). They show where he got the methods, and what he did with them, and who he handed them on to (can get actual dates and places for this too). And so on, all the way down to even little old me (ditto here). There is absolutely no question about what kungfu is, and there is absolutely no question that bagua qualifies.

Is this true of sanshou? Everything I've learnt suggests no.

As far as traditional stylists not knowing how to fight; I believe you have had some experience with bagua stylists, so perhaps it was a choice example for me to use here.

[Liokault]

lkfmdc


"Teh difference between san Shou and so called traditional is that now most "traditional" kung fu talks a lot about fighting but never does it. San Shou fights all the time"


I think thats a huge sterio type....Like saying Wushu dancers are really doing Kung fu and CAN fight.


I count my self as a traditional CMA guy but from day 1 I have been asked to hit things hard- In 13 years or so of training with the same teacher he has never asked me to hit into the air EVER.

Also out of a 2 1/2 hour class the only time we work with out a partner is 20 mins or so of hand form at the end!!


Do not confuse Wushu dancing with CMA.




Also I read a bio on Cung Le and it went on at length about his wrestling his TKD his boxing coach but very very little about his kung fu.

Also I have been reading about Marvin Perry (who looks much better than Cung in the videos) and it talks at great length about his Thai boxing!!

[Merryprankster]

Actually, it's not that big a can of worms at all, unless people want to make it into one.

I'm asking if San Shou IS Kung Fu.

There's nobody in the MMA community with half a brain that thinks that BJJ IS MMA/Vale Tudo/NHB. Intertwined--yup, thanks to the history of the development of the art, but not the same.

You have to train BJJ within a ringfighting context to be successful with it in the ring. I don't have a problem saying that. If you always train gi, always train with no strikes, always train within the context of a sport BJJ mentality (positioning points, etc), you stand a good shot of losing in the ring.

My discussion with Braden was strictly over the appropriateness of an analogy, NOT over whether or not San Shou constitutes Kung Fu.

It may be that San Shou IS Kung Fu, as is Tai Chi, WC, etc.
It may be that it is nothing more than a competition format.
It may be that Kung Fu and San Shou are intertwined, but not exactly the same.

I'm looking for some kind of general consensus from the KF crowd or at least a feeling about this. I'm not educated enough about the subject and I'm trying to learn something. Since there is a lot of disagreement here, it looks like I'll be learning a lot :).

I apologize for the use of REAL in the title. I shouldn't have--it led to some confusion between us, I think.

[Water Dragon]

OK, I'll buy that. My answer is:

It may be that Kung Fu and San Shou are intertwined, but not exactly the same.

I also feel that someone who always train gi, always train with no strikes, always train within the context of a sport BJJ mentality (positioning points, etc), can probably handle themselves very well on the street even if they get their butt kicked in the ring.

Same for CMA (if you train with the same intensity as the "sportive" arts)

[Merryprankster]

Fair enough Water :)

[fa_jing]

I'm not interested in answering the above question, just because it's a debate I've already had enough of with some CMA purists. But, I would like to make the following point:

I think my style (traditional CMA) and my teacher's approach (modern-eclectic) would (and will) serve me very well in a Sanshou bout. I would not look to non-chinese arts to augment my Sanshou competing ability. The only art I would consider adding to my skillset is Shaui Jiao for some more throws. I'm sure Judo would cover the same area, but I like Chinese styles. Personal preference, and takes advantage of my existing general knowledge of Chinese styles. If it was a different sort of competition that included groundfighting, I would consider adding BJJ to my skillset, since I know of no Chinese equivalent.

I would not study (further) the following arts to add to my striking skillset:

TKD
Muy Thai
Karate
Boxing

I feel that further developing within my current style, Wing Chun, would be more beneficial for the same amount of time spent.

I base these assertions on my experiences in full-contact sparring.

-FJ

[fa_jing]

"There's nobody in the MMA community with half a brain that thinks that BJJ IS MMA/Vale Tudo/NHB. "

You've got it backwards. What if we asked BJJ guys
"Is MMA/Vale Tudo/NHB real BJJ"

And the arguements would begin.

-FJ

[brothernumber9]

I think the original question was " are san shou competitors practicing real kung fu?"

in that I interperated it to mean do chinese martial artists who participate in san shou/san da demonstrate principles or techniques identifiable to the style they learn. In most cases I would agree that the answer would be no outside of the common principles to almost all fighting disciplines.

However, I have seen on occasion fighters who use technique, postures, and theories/principles that clearly demonstrate thier discipline. For example the fighters from Sifu Henry Poo Yee's Jook lum all present themselves and fight in identifiable SPM fashion, also fighters of Choy Lay Fut under Sifu Tat Mau Wong do the same, there are others I have seen but that don't jump to my head like those. Anyway I have lost whatever point I originally intended to make as I have forgotten what that point was so I'll stop now.

[lkfmdc]

Braden,

So according to you, it's only "kung fu" if it has a famous master who created it generations ago and a lineage? That's what makes it "traditional"?

First, off, all the lineage in the world doesn't make anyone a capable martial artist or a fighter. Even Ba Gua people know that. Just because Dong was a bad ass doesn't make you one just because you do his system.

Second, just because your system was a great fighting system in the past doesn't make it practical in today's world. No one went into world war II using the weapons that had won the civil war expecting the same battle.

Finally, the reality remains that in the US today, most of what is being passed off as "traditional" is hog wash. Most so called traditional people can not fight, and I suspect that even my friend Black Taoist would agree with that

[Merryprankster]

fa_jing,

Not really. You'd get a response a lot like mine, I think, from the reasonable members of that crowd--that Sport BJJ and NHB are seperate, but related entities.

You'll get some idiot screamers, but how much attention do we pay to Ralek?

[lkfmdc]

Liokault
I think you may need to read Marvin Perry's site more closely, or maybe you see only what you want to see. He says he has won Muay Thai matches and even a Muay Thai title but he has NEVER spent a day learning Muay Thai. He fights using his San Shou training and wins.

If your teacher had you hitting bags and things that is great and that is real Chinese martial art, except where I am, too many channel 5 kung fu movie re run fans think that if you hit a heavy bag you are not doing "traditional", again, too much of this argument is encumbered by the ridiculous nonsense that is being passed off as "traditional" here.

I've said it a million times here before, but the masters inside China all embrace San Shou, and like it or not it is becoming a huge movement. And like it or not, outside of "kung fu boards" most "traditional" Chinese martial art is considered a joke by other martial arts people.

[Braden]

lkfmdc,

You mistook my meaning, for which I apologize.

I did not mean to imply that a lineage which was somehow deemed 'good' made one a good martial artist, or even a good practitioner, or even was something worth worrying about in the first place.

It's also worth pointing out that 'being a top notch fighting art' is never a quality that was under question here. MP simply asked about sanshou's relationship to kungfu. It could so happen that kungfu is a worthless endeavor for martial purposes; that's a different topic. Ditto for the concept of traditional in general.

I was simply pointing out a fallacy in your argument. You're straw-manning my argument a little when you say "it's only kungfu if it has a famous master..." For one thing, the notion of fame was never under debate here. If it was, bagua would certainly be an awfully poor example, as it's not famous at all, at least not in the west (I've told my parents several hundred times what it is I study and they still ask if it's taekwondo).

When you consider a more liberal statement of my argument, it actually makes sense. You say, I assume derisively (it's my new word of the month, bear with me) "it's only 'kung fu' if it has a famous master who created it generations ago and a lineage? That's what makes it 'traditional'?" Throwing out some of your emphases which make it look like a sillier statement than it is, this actually is more or less right. Traditional, we must assume, is an adjective which means 'having to do with a tradition.' A tradition, I'm sure we'd all agree, has among it's necessary characteristics - being passed along generations.

To say that I don't think your art is traditional is, by no means whatsoever, a judgement statement. In fact, if we're to believe your arguments, to call your art not-traditional is a compliment!

In terms of naming things, men have generally agreed to be conservative. Which is to say, if there's ambiguity about putting something in a category, let's not do it. This sometimes creates some temporary inaccuracies, but it prevents utter chaos - if anything that seemed to fit the categories of a group was included in it, we'd have words changing meaning daily and it would be impossible to communicate.

If you're right that anything descended from the philosophy of chinese martial arts should be considered TCMA, regardless of how little it resembles TCMA and regardless of the impact of other developments upon it, then alot of the people on this forum must be correct in asserting that brazillian jiujitsu is kungfu - since the cultural transmission from china->japan->brazil in this matter is undeniable history. However, I would argue this is a useless assertion, as, this cultural transmission was put under different pressures and developed in different ways until it no longer resembled what it once was. This is, surely, a good process; and it's surely one we should recognize when we use nomenclature - which is the reason we should not call BJJ kungfu. This is hardly a unique situation - it's the same reason we don't call otters 'dogs', elderly people 'babies', grown up cows 'bull sperm', or any other number of statements which, while they could be argued to be true in the sense you are using here, would lead us all to make incorrect conclusions about them.

[Liokault]

I think this thread is growing into what makes a style a style. be it a style for competition or a style of martial art.

Hitting a punch bag will not nessecerily make you a boxer and any one who trains in a style that hits with the fist (or palm for that matter ) should be hitting a punch bag.

[Liokault]

Just out of interest who here has fought under san shou rules and how many fights have you done? I mean proper fullcontact, lei tai with throws san shou.

I have done somthing like 16 fights now.

[shaolinboxer]

" And like it or not, outside of "kung fu boards" most "traditional" Chinese martial art is considered a joke by other martial arts people."

I agree on all points except this one. I think by "other martial arts people" you may be referring to the culture of modern ring fighting. If so, then I would agree. However, there is still a high regard for tai chi, ba gua and hsing-i among most hoplogists and serious practitions of koryu, bujutsu, and budo.

Many martial artists consider ring combat a degradation of the martial arts, not a true testing ground, and think that knowledge of fighting that comes from the ring is as delusional as gymnastic forms.

I myself see the value of all sides of the argument.

[Tigerstyle]

"No one went into world war II using the weapons that had won the civil war expecting the same battle."

I really like that line.

[fa_jing]

It's funny that people have that impression of TCMA. Because the most traditional guy I've ever met, Kwan Cortez, I would be more scared of him than any other MA in the city of Chicago. People just haven't met real traditional Chinese martial artists that are making these judgements.

I had a similar arguement with my pops a couple of years back. He was talking about the point tourneys we used to go to back in my TKD days. I won some of these when I was 16. Pops was saying that he saw kung fu guys compete, and TKD beats Kung fu.
I explained to him how he was wrong, but his mind was made up from what he saw 10 years ago. I thought back to this era...out of 200 competitors at your average tourney, maybe 10 would be from Kung Fu, and 9 of these from a fake school (actually fake.) The other guy would be someone who only practiced forms, or maybe a Tai Chi guy. Never anyone with real sparring experience, that I ever saw at one of these tournements.

You could still count the good, legit traditional KF schools here in Chicago on 2 hands. Even 2 schools that I checked out that had legit lineage, the quality of instruction was poor.

It's certainly a shame that a niche market Chinese kung fu has entered in the US is that of people who avoid contact, yet want to learn martial arts. I feel that some CMA people have perpetuated this illusion, that such a thing is possible, in the interest of going after this market.
-FJ

[lkfmdc]

Many people are under the (false) impression that just because you have a "sport" version to compete with you are not a "true fighting art".... There are a few obvious problems with the assertion

It is impossible to practive with any realness or practicalness many of the so called "deadly" techniques. Who will go all out, with no gear, and no restrictions the many times that is necessary to develop real fighting attributes? In the past, sadly so, many of our ancestors didn't have a choice, it was fight or DIE and sadly, many DIED.... the survivors passed on accumulated experience, from real fighting

A frequent idea in Chinese martial arts is to catch a punch and break the arm, but as we never break our classmate's arms, EVER, we do not know for certain if we can do it. We especially do not know if wwe can do it under the stress of a real life and death situation.

A San Shou fighter knows full well he can throw someone trying to punch and kick him because he has done it, under conditions as reasonably approaching a "fight" as you can get in today's world

Consider that both the Soviet Union and China set up sports (Sambo and San Shou) for their military to engage in for training perposes. While their military certainly spent time learning to kill, to shoot, to stab, to break, to crush, they also found value in sports in which they certainly aren't killing eachother

Kano created "randori" what most of you think of as "sport" to develop skills taht could be done free form, that if the basics were strong, the other guy's "deadly stuff" wouldn't matter

IN matches that were contested under true "no holds barred" conditions against Japanese jujitsu schools, Kano and his so called "sport" people won hands down. In fact, the KILLED two people (not widely known)

[Braden]

lkfmdc - Interesting points. Although again I don't think the question was whether or not sanshou was a 'killing art' but rather simply about it's relationship to kungfu.

To continue the aside though, it's worth noting that Kano's randori wasn't the same concept as the sport 'judo' people practice now.

[shaolinboxer]

You have stated the common arguement of sport fighters. It is valid and true.

[lkfmdc]

San Shou's wide variety of kick catches, sweeps and takedowns are from traditional Chinese martial arts. Essentially, so are its kicks and punches but the obvious is that there are only so many ways you can punch or kick someone so these techniques can be found in boxing, kickboxing, etc. Where in western wrestling do you have elbow locking throw? (hint: no where, it is totally illegal). The way we catch kicks baffles Muay Thai people, even very good ones

The strategy is uniquely Chinese, to expolit "leaks" in defense, to break the dan tin to throw, bridges, gates, inside and outisde areas. The fact that some people see San Shou and can't see some of these ideas leads me to believe they don't even know they exist...

[lkfmdc]

San Shou structure is closer to old randori than modern sport judo by far. There are very few illegal things in San Shou, virtually limitless legal attacks, in the US we don't even do them all for safety (direct attack to knee, kicking the down fighter, etc)

[Braden]

I was under the impression old randori was fairly rule-laden.

[Water Dragon]

I actually think the answer would be something closer to:

San Shou is not traditional Gong Fu, but you can't have traditional Gong Fu without a San Shou element.

What makes the issue complicated is the rule structure. It sounds like lkfmdc sees the current San Shou model as the best vehicle for training. I don't. Truthfully I don't like the gloves and would prefer to use an open fingered glove. I can still pull my throws, but I need to change them for the ring which I don't like.

Now, even though we may disagree on this point, you'll never see me post that San Shou as is, is not realistic or not a valid format. I doubt lfkmdc would say the same thing about using fingerless gloves. That's more of a stylistic preference. My senior is totally convinced that an elbow to the teeth is a perfectly legal sparring technique. But he wont say a format is invalid if this is dis-allowed.

I guess, in short, I'm trying to say that there are babies and there is bathwater. be careful what you throw out.

[Merryprankster]

fingerless gloves would be SWEEEEEET!!!

[rogue]

From the little SS that I've seen I think it's throws are functionally superior to many other methods. If I can throw someone who's half naked while wearing large gloves than I can also perform that move in the street when fine motor skills are lowered.

But that's just IMO.

[Water Dragon]

That's true Rogue, but there are also PRINCIPLES (bolded to differentiate them from techniques) that require the use of the open hand and fingers. Big Gloves automatically remove those principles from the contest.

[Braden]

WD/MP - Koushu uses fingerless gloves.

[Suntzu]

just for the record… I hate fingerless gloves… but that would be an intereseting dynamic…

[rogue]

Such as what Water Dragon?

[Braden]

WD - Do you guys use the 'dragon palm' in SC to 'extend energy down the arms' ... sorry... just can't describe it better. ;) Always wondered if Cheng Tinghua got that from his SC training, as it doesn't seem to be in the other bagua lineages.

[Merryprankster]

Yeah, but doesn't KuoShou use facemask headgear?

[Suntzu]

Yeah, but doesn't KuoShou use facemask headgear? yup!!

[lkfmdc]

If you do any kind of MMA, you are using fingerless gloves, the reality is also that with such gloves, people get poked in the eyes and fingers get broken. Boxing gloves are without a doubt safer. Also note that formats that tried to do basicly "san shou with fingerless gloves' never went anywhere. Taiwan has officially stopped doing Lei Tai under Kuoshu rules, they are now doing San Shou/San Da

Principles are principles and if wearing a glove greatly hinders your principle (not technique) then maybe there is something wrong with the principles?? For the record, you can easily deflect, even stick with boxing gloves if you know HOW....

My opinion is that throws that are overly complex will never work in a high stress situation like a real fight, stick with basics and you can do basics with gloves on

[rogue]

I hate to break this to some of you, but when striking the hand is pretty much just along for the ride. It's the point at which you transfer the energy to your opponent but it doesn't generate it.

[Braden]

Sort of. Not like a fencer's. I've seen boxers sparring with it... it's like a padded ring around the head and a plastic cross-hatch over the nose. I understand it's a trade-off to allow elbows to the head.

[lkfmdc]

ah, yes, the very realistic face cage head gear :)

[Braden]

:confused: at rogue.

LOL at "if your skills are optimized for bare hands rather than boxing gloves your skills are unrealistic".

[lkfmdc]

I had a student recently ask me about Kyokushinkai. Being the typically blunt person I am, I asked him if he wanted to learn to stand chest to chest with his hands down and throw sloppy body punches? Because, quite simply this is the answer, they did not have good gloves, the karate people sparred bare handed. As they did not want to get punched repeatedly in the face bare handed, they disallowed face punching. The result was a very unrealistic fighting style which in the early days of K-1 resulted in Kyokushinkai legends getting KO'd in a matter of seconds. In teh real world, people swing at the head, either accept this, train with head punching and take the logical next step of putting on some gloves, or look at the first year of K-1

[fa_jing]

Chopping and grabbing are difficult with gloves on. If you want to be well-rounded you would need to emphasize drills to develop these, rather than the competition format.
-FJ

[Braden]

:confused: :confused: :confused: Did I miss something? Who suggested training without hitting the face?

[Suntzu]

rather than the competition format.

what's so wrong with competing???

[lkfmdc]

I am tempted to just be sarcastic and ask you about the deadly judo chop, but in all seriousness, you can certainly "chop" with govles on, you are just "hammering" with a closed fist rather than an open palm, it is just yang instead of yin the same way in Lama Pai you have Jong Choih and Lo Han Sai Sin

As for grabbing, you can't be serious, we grab all the time in san shou....

[lkfmdc]

Ah, well, I was thinking of the face cage and how it was introduced to allow elbows but in reality it isn't very realistic at all, better drop the elbows and leave the face cage alone. Similarly, the Kyokushinkai guys talk about "Karate spirit" with the no pads BS when the reality is they simply didn't have them. Aditionally, the bare fist is NOT more realistic because in the street, fists will be flying

[Braden]

Could you explain the reasoning behind those two points, as they don't seem to be true at face value? (the points about the headcage/elbows and padded/bare fists)

[Water Dragon]

Braden, We may use the Dragon Palm, but I'm either unfamiliar with the term or haven't been introduced to the concept yet.

For everyone else, the following is a post on the Shaui Chiao board regarding this same topic. Notice how it doesn't say one is good or bad, only that there advantages/disadvantages:

. Neck Surrounding:
By using the separate hands - both arms get inside of his arms and left hand surrounds his right arm and right arm surround his neck.
2. Arm lifting:
When he throws a left punch, use a outside-in block and circled under his left arm and lift his left arm (you don't need to grab his right arm).
3. Arm Circling:
When he punches to your right low ribs, circle his left arm pit from up-down and using stealing step to spin.
4. Embracing:
Use upper block to block his punch, both arms hold on his waist to pick him up.
5. Switching hand:
You throw a right back fist, he uses inside-out block, your left arm follow his right block and wrap around his right arm. Your right arm can
surround his neck, drop your fore arm on his throat, straight punch to his face, or hook punch to his head.

With gloves, the following techniques are hard to do:

1. Tearing
2. Side door control
3. Diagonal pulling
4. Cracking

Advantage with gloves
- Closer to the Sand-Da tournament role.
- You can punch harder without injure

Disadvantage with gloves:
- Some techniques can not be applied and will be lost forever.
- Every styles will fight the same way.

[lkfmdc]

There is always a back and forth between reality and safety. The face cage head gear makes you safe from elbows, and with those little fingerless gloves people won't even punch you in the face, so it's not at all realistic. It is better that they didn't have elbow strikes and drop the huge unrealistic head gear. Of course now there are excellent elbow pads made in Thailand but of course Kuoshu is like 20 years behind other combat sports because of its "traditional" thinking

The Karate guys are always talking about how in a real fight it is bare knuckle, well in a real fight they are also gonna punch you in the face. I'd rather wear gloves and learn how to deal with face punches than fight bare knuckle and not learn how to block a hook to the head.

For that matter, in a "real" fight people can pinch your nads, don't see that being suggested here

[fa_jing]

Lkfmdc - I said they were difficult, not impossible. It so happens that Wing Chun uses a lot of chops (Kao Sao) that can end a fight.
Especially if your grabbing their arm with the other hand as you do this. But, you have to get it in under their chin, which is hard enough as it is with someone that keeps their chin down. Or, smash it right into their upper lip, but that's to small an area to hit with a hammer fist. You can do it with gloves on and it might be effective, but not as effective as a punch, I imagine.

As for grabbing, I mean grabbing somebody's forearm with a tight grip. I only have experience with 14-16 oz gloves, but this is darn near impossible. Yes, you can grab the back of someone's neck, a kick, their waist, make a triangle lock, etc, with gloves on.

Are you so used to training with the gloves, that you've forgotten the limitations they impose? I am all for putting on the gloves and sparring hard as a learning tool, I'm just saying this alone isn't enough to maximize your well-roundedness as a martial artist.

-FJ

[rogue]

Water Dragon aren't you confusing techniques and principles?

Also fa_jing, how long are you grabbing their arm for? Fights tend to be fast, getting a good grip may not work even without gloves.

[lkfmdc]

HOw many times have you grabbed someone's forearm when they are punching at you full force and speed? Not to be an ass or anything, but have you tried it? Go to a boxing gym, ask the guy if he can throw some punches at you and you aren't gonna wear gloves but you aren't gonna hit him, I guarantee he'll do it.

Stuff like full contact fighting should teach people what is likely and what is not, but sadly I think a lot of people find excuses, thsi isn't directed at you Fa-Jing, it's just a general statement

[Braden]

Ah... you're saying that the combo of the nose cross-hatch and fingerless gloves makes people unrealistically avoid punching the face. I hadn't noticed that, but I'll be on the look out for it.

Assuming this is right, I wouldn't agree that this approach is worse, so much as different. Even if face strikes were utterly outlawed, face 'elbows' are not - and the converse is true in the format you suggest.

Regarding the karate guys, I'd have to agree that never training against high-level strikes is a rather ****ing failure. I don't know anything about kyushinkai though, so I can't really comment.

[Braden]

In fa-jings defense, I'm sure we all know there are plenty of situations where grabbing comes up, other than trying to pluck a full speed strike out of the air.

[rogue]

I'll comment, we bare knuckle in our school and IK is right about most not defending against a head shot. A light over hand right to the noggin gets their attention.

[lkfmdc]

the nice trick about elbows is that you have to be close to make them work, and most of the time if you can clinch and throw well they are very hard to land, as the Thais found out recently. San Shou competitons now don't use elbows, but they sure as hell know how to clinch and throw....

[lkfmdc]

smothering, tying up and clinching call all be done against punches full spped, they can also all be done WITH GLOVES ON

[Braden]

I'm a little confused by how sure people are that the unique driving evolutionary feature of our species (our hands) can offer nothing of value martially. Different perspectives I guess.

[rogue]

Hands let us do fine detail work, fights are not usually won that way.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
smothering, tying up and clinching call all be done against punches full spped, they can also all be done WITH GLOVES ON

Sure can, along with wrapping and bumpinf. Ripping and posting, however CAN NOT

[Braden]

Rogue -

"I hate to break this to some of you, but when striking the hand is pretty much just along for the ride. It's the point at which you transfer the energy to your opponent but it doesn't generate it."

The qualities of the 'point at which you transfer energy' for any physical process are at least as important as the qualities of the energy itself. If you don't believe me, run a quarter down your hand, then run a razor blade down your hand. This phenomenon isn't limited to sharpness (in fact, sharpness is just a dramatic case of a unitary phenomenon). Man has developed all sorts of tools for different tasks by altering nothing more than the point at which energy is transferred. Look at all the different kinds of hammers, mallets, mauls, awls, flails, etc.

[rogue]

But you're not saying that your system fall apart if you can't do ripping and posting, are you?

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by rogue
But you're not saying that your system fall apart if you can't do ripping and posting, are you?

Of course not. If you read the post I copied again, you'll find that the answers were in regards to how to achieve throws with the gloves on.

What I'm saying is that the gloves prevent me from using my specific style to it's fullest potential. Another art may be able to reach it's full potential with the gloves. Again, its a matter of advantages/disadvantages. Not good/bad.

I'd much rather fight San Shou w/ big gloves than not fight at all.

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by rogue
But you're not saying that your system fall apart if you can't do ripping and posting, are you?

I'm sure he isn't, and my system also will NOT fall apart if I can't do forearm grabs and neck chops.

-FJ

[rogue]

I got you now WD, but I'd say winning a fight is reaching the fullest potential of your system, not what techniques you use.

[Water Dragon]

OK. And that's a point we can agree to disagree on. I want to be able to progress even after that point (just winning the fight) is reached. To let the Shuai Chiao "become a part of me" so to speak. But that's decades of training and a personal goal.

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
HOw many times have you grabbed someone's forearm when they are punching at you full force and speed? Not to be an ass or anything, but have you tried it?


NONE, because when someone is punching at me full force and speed, and in a dynamic situation, we're USING GLOVES. I haven't been streetfighting lately.

Go to a boxing gym, ask the guy if he can throw some punches at you and you aren't gonna wear gloves but you aren't gonna hit him, I guarantee he'll do it.
[/QUOTE]

Thanks, I'll just train with my sifu, who boxed for years.

In our system, we don't just grab punches out of thin air, the grab comes after a block and if executed properly, will jerk the opponent off balance. Your timing and usage needs to be correct - for instance, you would never try to grab a receding hand, you need to catch it on the way out or at the peak of the movement. Also, a major use of the grab is from his guard postion, when he is NOT executing a technique. An example of taking advantage of your opponent's lack of action.

Rogue asked how long we grab for, long enough to hit him once and the grab instantly changes to a trap/covering move.

My Sifu has fought successfully in many MMA events, he says that the ones that use fingerless gloves work the best for our style, and the grab (lop sao) works alot, very effective. We however don't use the fingerless gloves for training, we're focusing on other things at this level (power) and don't want to get hurt training.

I know that MY grabbing and chopping is not as highly developed as other aspects of my "game," due to the way we train.

-FJ

[fa_jing]

BTW, what I do in sparring: be content with "glove grabs," which can clear some space but don't take his balance, and focus on everything else. I never chop or try a whipping punch or finger jab with the gloves on. I also modify our blocks to use with the gloves.

-FJ

[DragonzRage]

as for the original question, it really boils down to how you're defining the term "kung fu". If you simply mean a fighting art that is Chinese in origin, then san shou fits that description. But if you're thinking of "Chinese Kung Fu" in a strictly traditional sense, and in comparison to the common standards and practices of the myriad systems of traditional CMA, you cannot put san shou underneath that banner.

That is not to say that san shou does not utilize any tactics from the Chinese arts. Being a muay thai guy/MMA'ist, I notice that many of the people training under my disciplines who are also familiar with san shou do not consider it kung fu for a second. They simply see a Chinese incarnation of kickboxing that also involves western wrestling and judo. Anyone who has ever truly studied kung fu and understands its principles knows that this is an assumption made out of ignorance. As others have pointed out, kung fu is not limited to what you see in a shaw brothers movie. The fact is that all those movies have really caused a strong misconception in the general public of what kung fu is. If you look at a Chinese San Da training manual or watch those guys fight you will see plenty of applied Chinese techniques. But at the same time, you have to recognize that san shou is also the product of modern athletic training and foriegn influences.

Because of the format of the competition, there are very specific strategies and techniques that are applicable in San Shou. Hence the fighters have established their training towards this format. In other words, san shou has become its own thing. Whatever kung fu system they supposedly represent (if any), serious san shou/san da fighters train in SAN SHOU/SAN DA. Doing the animal fist forms, iron palm training, sword vs spear sets, etc that may form the specific aspects of their kung fu background is nonessential and irrelevant to their success in the sport. The things that they do work on are the specific training methods and techniques that apply to the game of san shou. The traditional methods of CMA have always been created as life or death situation killing arts (in theory). Although traditionally "bei mo" challenge matches and lei tai duels did occur, kung fu was never systemized as an organized pugilist athletic sport, which is what san shou is.

Perhaps in theory this limits kung fu's application and effectiveness as a pure combative system, but as we realize nowadays, theory does not always apply in reality. That's why traditional kung fu specialists have been soundly thrashed by thai boxers and MMA athletes on the vast majority of occasions when they have faced off in freestyle fighting matches. Although the kung fu guys were theoretically more geared towards real life, they usually found themselves desperately outclassed by seasoned fighters who were vastly experienced in ACTUALLY applying their techniques to incapacitate their opponents in the ring and were also physically and athletically superior. Since this is the arena that san shou specializes in, it shares a lot more in common, in terms of training and methodology, with modern athletic pugilism such as boxing, sport muay thai, and judo then it does with traditional CMA. And this shows in san shou competition and training despite the fact that san shou does contain a lot of techniques from the Chinese arts. For example, I've seen san shou trainers drilling boxing combos on the focus mitts and kick-punch combos on the thai pads. Now I know that when it gets down to it a punch is just a punch, a kick is just a kick, etc...but you can't possibly use this sort of training and then say "hey, we're just doing pure Chinese kung fu in the ring" cuz that's horse$hit. The influence of non-Chinese fighting method and athletic training is obvious.

So if anything, I would consider san shou/san da a "kung fu influenced modern sport" or something to that extent. Look at it this way...just because Shooto is a Japanese invented sport that has some Japanese martial influence doesn't mean that you can call it karate.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Braden
I'm a little confused by how sure people are that the unique driving evolutionary feature of our species (our hands) can offer nothing of value martially. Different perspectives I guess.

Hands aren't the driving evolutionary feature of our species. The ability to point at things is ;)

[fa_jing]

Go to a boxing gym, ask the guy if he can throw some punches at you and you aren't gonna wear gloves but you aren't gonna hit him, I guarantee he'll do it.



I just can't get enough of this. lkfmdc, why are you relying on the same specious assumption that we hear from MMA trolls?? That CMA's don't test their techniques against resisting opponents, or boxers? That we don't know what to do against a style that retracts it's punch quickly? Ridiculous. One of the major uses of our grab is when YOU are punching, your opponent blocks, and you grab his BLOCKING hand with your hand that was punching. Dozens of Chinese styles use this type of grab, I can't imagine that you don't know this. I could excuse a non-Chinese stylist, but you? Again, you can do a grab with the glove, and it is worth doing, but effectiveness is impacted to a small but significant degree.

If all San Shou stylists display this kind of ignorance, than I'll have to go join the traditionalist camp. Of course they won't have me either, 'cause I like to hit (LOL :D) I just can't believe San Shou has the air of superiority that lkfmdc is demonstrating. It just goes to show, sport styles usually *help* realism, but they can *kill* realism if they are practiced exclusively.

-FJ

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by DragonzRage
For example, I've seen san shou trainers drilling boxing combos on the focus mitts and kick-punch combos on the thai pads. Now I know that when it gets down to it a punch is just a punch, a kick is just a kick, etc...but you can't possibly use this sort of training and then say "hey, we're just doing pure Chinese kung fu in the ring" cuz that's horse$hit. The influence of non-Chinese fighting method and athletic training is obvious.


If the boxing combos are contained in your Chinese art, then your statement is incorrect. I just would say they are doing a modern, sportfighting-orientated permutation of Chinese Kung fu. Well, maybe that isn't "pure," but that's open to interpretation. Just cause they designed those pads in Thailand, doesn't mean we're doing muy thai. Although in my case, we do use a single muy thai kick (low roundhouse) go home and cry you purists (LOL). Interestingly, I would be far less likely to use this kick in a self-defense situation.

-FJ

[lkfmdc]

Fa Jing,
In your first response to exactly the same post, you said two things. First you have never tried to catch a full power full speed punch because you only spar with gloves on and don't try it with the gloves. So, by your very own word, you have said you don't know if you can do it, you have never done it. That's your account, I am not putting words in your mouth

When I first suggested working with boxers, you said you are content to work just with your sifu. This is the same sifu who teaches you to grab the punch, yes? So he has a "vested interest" so to speak, no? He may have boxed and all but he isn't there to prove to you that you can't grab a punch because that is a technique he is teaching. Follow me?

If your technique works, it works on everyone. Go out and work with as many people as possible, not just your sifu. Go fight San Shou, or Thai, or box. That's what my people do. The proof is in teh pudding, either it will work or it won't

don't get upset, just test it out

[Liokault]

Fa Jing,


"If all San Shou stylists display this kind of ignorance, than I'll have to go join the traditionalist camp. Of course they won't have me either, 'cause I like to hit (LOL ) I just can't believe San Shou has the air of superiority that lkfmdc is demonstrating. It just goes to show, sport styles usually *help* realism, but they can *kill* realism if they are practiced exclusively. "

I have got to agree with this. lkfmdc is coming over a bit preciouse about san shou whice after all is only 1 format out of many. I'm not even sure that every body involved in this thread is thinking of the same "san shou".

[lkfmdc]

If I hit a focus mitt I'm a boxer and if I kick a Thai pad I'm a Thai boxer? Interesting suposition??? If I wear a jacket made in Italy then I'm Italian??

[Water Dragon]

Where did that come from :confused:

[LEGEND]

It's really that SIMPLE. Why are some martial artists content which just training within that style??? Or content with just sparring within that group??? What happens if u encounter a different stylist??? u don't know till u try...it's not like u're switching styles u just need to spar and see if u can overcome the other. Yip Man inform his students to just that in HK.

[fa_jing]

lkfmdc, I'd like you to understand a couple points.

1. Grabbing a punch is not the only time I want to tightly grab the forearm.

2. Many other CMA use similar tactics, and were battle tested for decades, in some cases centuries.

3. I trust what my teacher says, because he has the experience to back it up. He doesn't try to deceive us, in fact he is always telling us "lose the flashiness." If I didn't trust him, I wouldn't be studying with him. I have been with him for a while and didn't formulate this opinion quickly.

4. No, I've never done it under those conditions, but every time I've done a grab with the glove in sparring full-speed, I assume it could have been done better without. I think that is a reasonable assumption. You imply that I can't do it, nor can anyone else.

4. Your posting seems to demonstrate ignorance of traditional CMA. I think that reflects badly on San Shou, which up to this point seemed very appealing to me.

Sorry for the rough tone, I'm not like this in person. However, my personality changes on the internet, due to the debate atmosphere.

-FJ

[Liokault]

I agree.

If I hit a focus mit i'm not a boxer....i am just honeing my skills. This is even true if I am doing combinations. Now if I am told to hit like a boxer and not like a CMA guy then I am a boxereven if its my sifu doing the telling not my boxing coach.

(BTW I do not have a boxing coach but I do use combinations on focus mitts)

[fa_jing]

Oh, and I welcome the opportunity to spar with other stylists, be they boxers, whatever. It is good to see what techniques work the best against the myriad martial tactics that exist in the world. I haven't had as many opportunities as I would like, this should change over the next few years. Still, I fully expect to be able to grab a boxer's forearm, one of similar experience to me, under very specific cicumstances that have a significant possibility of arising. I'm not talking about Lop sao-ing their jab, that surely would be folly.

-FJ

[chingei]

Originally posted by fa_jing
I fully expect to be able to grab a boxer's forearm, one of similar experience to me.

-FJ

I hope you don't bet too much of your personal safety on that notion.

[fa_jing]

Looks like you didn't see my edit, I posted too fast.

-FJ

[chingei]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
If your technique works, it works on everyone.

oh, I dunno...

[lkfmdc]

sometimes, truth only is achieved when it strikes us directly in the face

good luck

[chingei]

Originally posted by Water Dragon


Hands aren't the driving evolutionary feature of our species. The ability to point at things is ;)

Nah, the ability to talk people into **** is.

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
sometimes, truth only is achieved when it strikes us directly in the face

good luck

Sometimes, truth is only acheived when it yanks you into a front kick.

Good luck to you too.

-FJ

[Mutant]

good thread guys.

based on my experience i believe that san shou IS kung fu. it is cma basics and essentials packaged in a format that allows for developing skills under high stress combat simulation. it you really feel that certain traditional techniques are compromised, don't forget that you can still use the 'deadly technique' or whatever in a real fight and will be more likely to land it because of the bring away from san shou type training.

sure you can bring other arts into the san shou ring but as lkfmdc pointed out they are not dominating the sport by any stretch of the imagination. and people often confuse san shou's round kick with muay tai kicks and assume san shou/cma got that technique from the tai style. this is not so. and if we use training gear, pads etc, designed by western or tai companies, it doenst mean youre parcticing a tai kick for example, just that its a good product designed for similar use. cma has kicks like that, just cause you didnt learn the doenst mean its not there, i learned those in a traditional cma class years before i even thought about san shou...there are only so many effective ways to strike....i hear the same thing said about the throws being taken from judo, punches from western boxing, etc., its just people calling out what may be similar overt movements to something else they do or have seen so they call it that and they may not even fully understand what they looking at or see some of the cma tactics and sublties.

san shou is an expression and training format for cma utilizing the best modern training methods available, whether old or new, for modern combat.

[fa_jing]

To the "grabbing is not possible" crew--I supposed you believe Northern Mantis is a crock of sh.it??

-FJ

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by chingei


I hope you don't bet too much of your personal safety on that notion.

I point you back to my original, now edited post, but let me just say you are absolutely right!!!! I HAVEN'T been practicing these grabs in a realistic enough environment, and I WON'T rely on them for self-defense, not at this point until I can train these techniques further. I would, however, try it out on friendly terms, where playing the highest possible odds was not so critical. Hopefully, enough of this training would give me the ability to use these moves safely in a self-defense situation.

-FJ

[DragonzRage]

"Just cause they designed those pads in Thailand, doesn't mean we're doing muy thai"

That point is well taken. But its one thing to practice jik chun choi on the focus mitts, its another thing to be doing jab-cross-hook-uppercut combos while slipping, bobbing and weaving with someone feeding you like a boxing coach would. Not to say that kung fu doesn't have punch combinations, but if you're crosstraining and using other ideas then why deny it?

On a sidenote, I wouldn't discount the low thai kick in a streetfight ;) I know some guys who've ended streetfights quickly with it. I myself have not, but its been awhile since i've been in a street brawl

[chingei]

Originally posted by fa_jing


I point you back to my original, now edited post, but let me just say you are absolutely right!!!! I HAVEN'T been practicing these grabs in a realistic enough environment, and I WON'T rely on them for self-defense, not at this point until I can train these techniques further. I would, however, try it out on friendly terms, where playing the highest possible odds was not so critical. Hopefully, enough of this training would give me the ability to use these moves safely in a self-defense situation.

-FJ

or perhaps come to a different conclusion about them?

[CanadianBadAss]

I havnt read any of that other stuff.

A couple week ends ago a guy from my school won gold in a San Shou competition. He had no other special San Shou training, except my sifu bought us some gloves a week before he went, so me and him did some sparring(the first time he had really sparred apart from chi sao) for him to get used to the rules. He does play soccer though, so he was already in good shape, but other then that, it was pretty much just regular WC(kung fu) trainning that he used to beat all of his opponents.

[DragonzRage]

Canadian,

Your friend's accomplishment is commendable and its good that his training came through for him in a full contact format. But his case is in no way representative of the heart of the san shou community. San Shou people generally specialize in san shou as its own entity...they're not simply traditional kung fu guys who fight full contact.

[old jong]

Im my humble opinion, it looks more like a mix of thay kicks,boxing and grappling than a derivative of chinese martial arts.
I have nothing against sport fighting but: Kung Fu is not a sport. (Please don't take me as snobish Merry!)
;)

[Archangel]

I was reading Marvin Perry Auto Biography on his website, he thinks that they are 2 different things.

http://www.marvinperry.org

[lkfmdc]

Marvin Perry is trained by Jason Yee and Josh Bartholomew, I can guarantee that if you ask them, or Marvin for that matter, they will tell you they do San Shou as they learned in China and not some mis mosh of boxing, kicking, etc

[Archangel]

Oh, you're going to make me quote it aren't you; Ok then,

4th paragraph down, last 2 sentences.

"I got bored and I wanted to learn how to fight. That is when I decided that I wanted to quit Kung Fu and do San Shou"

~Marvin Perry

[lkfmdc]

I've known Jason Yee for 15 years, Josh for 7, Marvin for 5, I know what they think, you are reading a sentence of a web page.

What you could note is that when he wanted to learn to <b>FIGHT</b> he left traditional Kung Fu :)

[Xebsball]

Well well well, for me cma is not supposed to look like muay thai, or kickboxing or wrestling. Maybe a little but not completely.
I dunno how much the rules affect how you fight (stances, guards, strikes, etc) cos i never fought in the sanshou format. But i think if the format do makes em fight kickboxing-like then the format should be changed.

And yes yes yes tradicional kung fu teaches fighting very well. It is true that most schools teaching tradicional maybe dont teach like they should, but that doesnt take away the fact that tradicional kung fu have very viable and effective fighting systems.

[Le nOObi]

Well William C. C. Chens son is a san shou champion so obviously TCMA can be adapted to the San shou format. San Shou doesnt allow alot of moves but i still think someone who fights well with less constraining rules can train a little differently and do well in san shou as well.

[Le nOObi]

Also Cung le knows some vietnamese kung-fu which he says is similiar to chinese kung fu

[Water Dragon]

LOL, I think I see a new era here. Traditional vs. San Shou. Let it die guys.

[dezhen2001]

seems like ur trying hard to eclipse Tae Li's Li Lian Jie thread :D
good luck!

david

[SanShou Guru]

I try to stay out of these debates because they don’t really go anywhere useful in many cases but I feel I should clear a few things up. IKFMDC is right for the most part about what he has been saying about Marvin Perry’s history and opinions. The only person here who knows more about Marvin and his history is Marvin himself who does browse this forum form time to time.

He left tradition forms training in Kung fu to train in San Shou. Boston’s San Shou background comes from Jason Yee’s training in Kung Fu and San Shou in China but also from observation and adaptation of other styles. We have refined our style over the years and changes it to fit the times and styles we were fighting against.

Is San Shou Kung Fu? Yes. Is san Shou more than just Kung Fu? Yes.

Muay Thai has been training more western style boxing to improve their hands. Karate fighters don’t just train katas before they go into a full contact or kumate fight. There are very few pure combat arts but those arts are pure because combat is all the art is.

Some examples are;

Judo
Muay Thai
Wing Chung
Jujitsu
Boxing

San Shou like kumate, tournament TKD, kickboxing, is a subset of a larger art form. San Shou is Kung Fu because that is where is originated, but it is also more than that. The moment you think you are training in the ultimate style is the day you guarantee you will never reach your full potential.

There is no ultimate style or ultimate fighter i.e. someone that can beat everybody else on the planet every time. Believe me if their was we would know it. I’m a San Shou guy, I could not beat a good TKD guy at TKD, a Judo guy at Judo, a good boxer at boxing, a freestyle wrestler at wrestling, but I could beat most all of them at San Shou. We do not train with blinders on. We steal what works from other styles all the time. Thai round kicks are great but are easy to catch so we adapt them. TDK spin kicks and speed are great but their weight is to high for a wrestling sport, adapt it. Wrestling shoots and take downs are great but there is poor head defense, adapted. Boxing is great but feet are too narrow and clenching and hitting toe to toe does not work when wrestling is allowed, adapted. See my point?

In the long run it does not matter. To win at San Shou you need to be a balanced fighter OR so good at one of the three disciplines that you can overcome the others but balance will win out in the end.

[Suntzu]

well said:cool: … now I'm all choked up:( and I wanna go to the gym…

[lkfmdc]

Good post as usualy Guru, and to others, you should note something, even traditional masters way back in the day studied other stuff to be more complete. You would be surprised how many masters in China investigated western boxing and wrestling

[Archangel]

Point taken guys, and I really admire what you guys are trying to accomplish. San Shou is a tremendous venue/art and I hope that it becomes the recognised testing ground for Chinese Martial Arts. All you guys need to do is add some groundfighting and it would be complete ;)

[BrentCarey]

Breaking with my usual practice, I will try to keep this brief.

I firmly believe the "kung fu" community would do well to stop trying be so objective like the Japanese and Korean MA communities. Let me explain by asking some questions:

What is Long Fist? Is it different from Northern Long Fist? What about Shaolin Long Fist? Is there a Southern Long Fist? If so, how is it different from Northern Long Fist? How is Shaolin Kung Fu different from other kinds of Kung Fu?

My point is that no one can answer these questions. Oh sure, a bunch of people will try because they read this thing or that thing in a book or two, but there just is no consensus on what defines a "style" in Chinese MA. A few styles are a) Chinese in origin, and b) have clear parameters, but these are exceptions to the rule.

Is San Shou a form of Kung Fu? Well, sure. Does "San Shou" = "Kung Fu". Of course not. Pick any major eastern style and show me a technique or principle, and I will show you (possibly with some digging) where that technique or principle appears somewhere in Chinese MA.

Did the technique come to China or from China? Who cares except historians? In Western culture it is all borrowed anyway. Does it really matter if it is borrowed from culture A or culture B?

Some people believe that if you somehow introduce elements from style X they will somehow invalidate or hinder what they have learned in style Y. It's all myth - driven these days more for commercial and political purposes than anything.

I'm going to start practicing "Juicy Fruit" just to prove my point.

This post is not meant as an attack on the originator. I understand the question. San Shou is definitely nothing like the "kung fu" that I practice, but then neither is Drunken Monkey (although I would love to learn the latter). This is just a pet issue of mine.


Peace,

Brent Carey

[Merryprankster]

I didn't think it was an attack Brent, so no worries.

However, a lot of people don't seem to think that San Shou IS kung fu at all--that is, if you practice for, almost strictly, San Shou, that you are doing Kung Fu at all.

I was just curious :)