Tit Kiu Sam's lineage?

[iron_silk]

Obviously Hung gar has made famous the Iron Wire set, and this is thanks to Tit Kiu Sam's introduction to Wong Fei Hung. Yet did Tit Kiu Sam ever had students of his own? did his style not live on so speak?

Any information would be interesting, and last I recall was reading a article on Tung Fung (I think) and it also mentions students of Tit Kiu Sam.

[South Paw]

His students were Choy Chan, Ma Gee Tim, Lam Fook Shing, Ng Hee Koon, Sze Yu Leung and Au Chu. Tradition tells us that Lam Fook Shing taught the art to Wong Fei Hung.

South Paw

[iron_silk]

Do you know if any of the decendents are still around? is the specified style still taught?

Thanks!

[South Paw]

Just look for the older postings on this forum about "Lai Ng Sam".

There is no direct lineage to Tit Kiu Sam!

South Paw

[JE]

Iron_Silk:

Take a look at www.hunggakuen.com (http://www.hunggakuen.com)

This is the website for the lineage I train in and teach. We are very open to quetsions and communication so please feel free to contact me with any specific questions you might have.


Cheers,

Justin

[South Paw]

This is all Cyber Space Kung Fu:

Big on the internet, small in reality.
Fantasy lineage with a historical mix.

The only historical truth is that Lai Ng Sam was a
Hung Gar student of Chiu Kau.
http://www.ehga.org/eng/lineage.html

South Paw

[JE]

Hello Klaas,

I'm not exactly sure how to respond to such a comment. I will state very clearly that I am not going to get involved in some name-calling or lineage smashing argument with you.

I will do my best to explain the perspective of our lineage for the readers in general, and try to provide the information from my understanding of who we are and where we come from. Obviously you are welcome to respond, however, please do not count on a response from me if you are just trying to pick an argument or call people names.

For those who are intersted in any information about our lineage please refer to our website and do not hesitate to contact us with specific questions.

My understanding of my lineage is based upon two main issues. First is a letter written by our late grandmaster Lai Ng Sam that can be seen on our website and second, is the forms which make up our system (also on the website). The third major influence is, of course, my respect for my Sifu and his openness with me. Those of you who know Evert and have had the opportunity to interact with him will know what I'm talking about. However, as he is my Sifu, my opinion is biased and so I will leave this letter to focus on the first two issues.

Looking to our forms you can quickly see we practice much more than the common Hung Kuen forms. As a matter of fact we consider Hung Kuen as one branch of our Southern Siu Lam system. Just look to the curriculum of approximately 80 forms (weapons, fist, partner, etc.) and count the number of typical Hung Kuen forms. Please understand we do not consider our Hung Kuen or Siu Lam Kuen better or more special than anyone else. We are different in our approach but we ALL end up in the same place in the end. There are many paths up the mountain.

As far as considering Lai Ng Sam a student of Chiu Kau I do not have much to say. I never had the opportunity to observe any interaction between Lai Ng Sam and Chiu Kau personally and must base my perspective upon the letter written by Lai Ng Sam and a serious look at the martial curriculae of each school. Look at the forms which compose each system and the teaching styles of each. Once you've done that then you can know if they are the same.

Klaas, I wish you well in your journey within the martial arts world. It is a beautiful one and there remains much for all of us to learn. I regret that the existance of our lineage brings you so much grief but advise you to get over it. The fact of the matter is that we do exist.

As practitioners of traditional martial arts we should only be concerned with our sincerity of training and self-reflection...

Peace,

Justin

[Ming Fai]

Well said Justin. How are you lately, by the way?

Like my sihing Justin, I too respect our sifu Evert for his dedication towards the martial arts and his kindred spirit towards his fellow man. He encouraged Justin to learn Traditional Chinese Medicine and had encouraged me too study Chinese History & Culture, he did this not for his own gain but because he truly believes that we all should try to improve ourselves as an individual. But above all, Evert taught us to respect all martial artists of every school and style.

So, South Paw (Klaas), what's the matter with you? For years you have been hostile towards us, but we don't have a problem with you.

Why are your words and opinions "The Only Historical Truth" while the results of our research and the information handed down to us by heritage are "SH**T, Fantasy & Cyber Space Kung Fu"?

I'm not as nice as Justin. I won't wish you succes on your martial arts journey. I just wish you'll get a life and stop hating us.


René Ming Fai

[South Paw]

Rene wrote: "For years you have been hostile towards us, but we don't have a problem with you".

Hostility began just a year ago, and your group started it. My first hostility began with the postings on this forum about Lai Ng Sam.

Sure the teachings of Lai Ng Sam encompassed more then Hung Gar, but it is childish to belief that these teachings came from Tit Kiu Sam.
Arguments that speak against it were already posted on this forum. I hope they don't have to be repeated again.

To members of this forum: Feel free to contact me.

South Paw

[Je Lei Sifu]

I know that this arguement does not concern me. However, I have had the opportunity to correspond with Evert on several occasion, and during each correspondence I have learned something new.

The biggest lesson I have learned from Evert was that he is a man who believes in what he does and what was passed on to him. Like most of us, we are going to believe what we are told by those we have a high level of respect for. Evert has been told by whom he has trained under that his lineage is descended from Tit Kiu Sam. This information has become important to him as well as part of his teachings, and like most of us he will defend what he believes to be true. It does not matter what you, I, or the next person thinks of him, Evert will continue to teach what he believes. In my opion, he is worthy of praise for standing firm under constant assault from people who do not or will not walk even one mile in his shoes.

I personally wish the best for Evert and his students for standing up against those who wish to discredit him. Evert is a good man with a good heart, a person who is trying to better himself and to better his understanding of his choosen art.

Peace

Je Lei Sifu :cool:

The Southern Fist Subdues The Fierce Mountain Tiger

[Tao]

Greetings KF Brothers,

I have been studying the CMA since the age of nine, and I am still a student and always will be. For a wise man knows that the path to knowledge is infinite, but the path to wisdom and understanding is eternal. The road to martial arts is truly a never ending journey. This path is otherwise known as "Tao" (the way). However, as one travels (experience) one realizes that there are many paths (lineages, systems, traditions and non-traditions) that all lead to the same desitination which is enlightenment.

For example, the humble Damo or Tamo (Buddha) came from India. He taught the monks at Sil Lum or Shaolin (young forest temple) yogic therapeutic exercises for health and longevity. Yogi's, Swami's, Guru's all over the world alike respect the Chinese martial arts. For we are all brothers in this never ending journey of knowledge. Buddha
means enlightened one. Yogi's seek enlightenment by attaining Nirvana. This is done through asana (forms), pranayama (chi kung or qi gong), and meditation. Yoga has an energy system based on chakras. CMA has the meridians and accupuncture points. It all leads to the same thing. The chakra system in Africa is the mojo, Ancient Egypt; pyramid or tachyon energy which was based on the wand of Thoth or the Djed pillar of Osiris all being based on the 33 vertebraes of the spine. Greece received their energy system from Egypt they called it the kyballion of Hermes. The
Hebrews call it the Kabbalah. The shamans of North America, the Aztecs of Mexico, the Incas of
South America, the Arabs etc. I can go on and on. My point is... every culture has their own path to enlightenment. It is said that the greatest truth is this... everything is energy, and everything has a vibration, every vibration a sound, a color,
a plane, a world, a universe, a universe within a universe, it goes on and on and then comes back to itself. All paths lead to the same road in the end. Every one has the same energy but just express it in different ways, thoughts, ideas,
lineages, systems. The ancients of CMA knew this powerful truth. This is why they hid this knowledge in poems, caligraphy, symbols, forms, systems, and lineages. However, although keeping this knowledge secret and passing this knowledge from father to son, from Sifu to closed door disciples served its purpose (preserving the knowledge from the profane). This secrecy and esoteric privelege also breeded rivalry, conflict, etc. We can see this know to this day. An example is the lineage debates on this Forum as well as others. Over so many centuries man still hasnt learn from his mistakes. These same debates , rivalries, etc. are the same seeds that are sown
in the hearts of men that reap the evil fruits of
war, and destruction.

When I started learning the CMA. I started during the time when Sifus in the 1970's in NYC's Chinatown taught students in sweat shops and underneath illegal casinos, and even their home. Back then there was great respect for the art and ones point of view. Sometimes students never even knew the name of their Sifu or the system they were taught! But these Sifus were true martial masters. Rare now a day. The most important thing was not the lineage but the principle of what you were taught. Which existed from time immemorial. No one can claim this knowledge it is free for everyone. This is why Bruce Lee said be like water. He broke from tradition. He never downed tradition because he came from it (Yip Man). However, he said dont get caught up in it. Like the lineage battles, etc. We are all trying to understand what this thing energy is. Scientists are realizing now that there are other invisible structures (Quantum Physics, Qi, Qi Gong, meridians, etc.) they were too closed minded to believe existed. We are at the brink of a golden age where Western Science and Eastern Science (CMA, TCM, Yoga, etc.) can merge and make wonderful discoveries. So instead of bickering about lineages and inflating the ego of tradition (which is the opposite of eastern wisdom) let us learn from each other.

When I started learning chinese martial science (which I still am) I learned these moral codes which I find lacking in many students and schools these days:


Respect the ancestors of your art or any other art. (This is why after the Boxer Rebellion the Ching Mo Association was formed).

Respect your teacher or other teachers.

Respect your brother (or sister) in the art or
humanity in general.

Never speak ill or evil of your brother (or sister) of any lineage.

Respect one another's views. For ones view is an expression of ones Yi (idea). This comes from Qi and leads to Shen (Spiritual Enlightenment).

Most of all Never! Ever! Forget the true
virtue of humility! Humility means to be humble.
Which means that if you dont respect another art for its existence, down another art, or speak ill of it directly or indirectly you are breaking a major tenet of Sil Lum Martial arts and will receive your reward. This is Tao. Tao is also the laws of Nature which is Justice. Justice is the reward or penalty for ones ways and actions. So if you do good your Qi as well the Qi of your ancestors, your art, system, mind, etc. will reward you in the form of new knowledge, wisdom, understanding, health, longevity, etc.. If you do evil (speak bad about other lineages, people, their views, etc.) penalty will be your reward (which will be confusion, insanity, bad luck, or even death). This is the way. Tao.

CMA, and JMA, or any other art for that matter. I wish you a wonderful journey in the Tao. If someone speaks ill of you. Respect him still. Be like water. This is the way. If you learn this you will be crysal clear like water....and like a prism...the light (truth) of the ancients will be made known to you.

A mi to fu!

[Tao]

If someone speaks wrong, ill of you, your art, etc. wish him well. This is the road to self-mastery or mastering self. Controlling your emotions. Not reacting at the whim of someones words. This is true wisdom and understanding which leads one to peace and harmony with self and others. Some people dont know any better so they down others art or lineage. Thereby inflating their ego. So through silence you teach them. Also through the wisdom you express. Those who speak ill of someone, their point of view (which is expression of one self) or their lineage attract bad karma. In the end they will reap the seeds that they sow...forever being slaves to this material plane.

Wisdom is peace with ones self and others. True freedom. Ignorance is being not at peace with ones self and others. Mental and spiritual slavery...and in the end slavery to the physical realm. This is Tao.

A mi to fu

[Quan]

Excellent post Niko.
its nice to hear somebody say something positive and uplifting on this forum for a change
keep up the good work
Quan

[Tao]

Thank you Quan.
its nice to hear someone appreciating Right knowledge.
Quan

[Tao]

Thank you Quan.
its nice to hear someone appreciating Right knowledge.

[South Paw]

Niko, please don't repeat yourself too much.
Better move to the newsgroup:
alt.buddhistprayers. or
alt.confucianethics

[Tao]

Peace to Evert, Rene, Justin and the whole
Nam Siu Lam Hung Ga family, as well as all the
other Hung Ga families, CMA families, Karate-do families, Yoga families, Korean MA families, Tibetan MA families, Vietnamese MA families, and other MA families. We are all family! No matter what family or lineage.

A mi to fu

[Tao]

Kung Fu is based on the laws of nature which is Tao. Feng Shui. Just as Kung Fu teaches one to align their body with the forces of nature, one should also align their mind, thoughts and words as well. The Wise are blessed by aligning their words with positivity (postive forces). Where as Fools are cursed by aligning their words with negativity (negative forces). For what you reap, you sow tenfold. Therefore, the wise choose their words carefully and mean everyone well. Fools are careless with their words, thereby bringing misfortune and ruin on their own heads. Many so-called students of Gong fu these days think they know Gong Fu but have no idea what Gong Fu is. Martial art movements are just a tip of Gong Fu. Gong Fu is a supreme science only truly understood by those with a supreme mind. The highest form of Gong Fu is Shen Gong. Meaning one can heal, defend and attack from a distance. Those who attempt to attack from a distance are already defeated. Unfortunately, Fools only learn after the storm.

A mi to fu

OM MANI PADME HUM