Fu Hok Yao Gong Fut Pai

[Andy]

Does anyone here have any knowledge or information on a southern kung fu style known as Fu Hok Yao Gong Fut Pai (Tiger Crane Soft Hard Buddhist Sect)? It is very distinct and seperate from the Hung Ga style. I study, practice and teach this rare art and am looking for others who do the same.

[David Jamieson]

The name would denote that it is a "village" hybridization of popular southern Shaolin styles.

Probably has a lot of similarities to styles such as Hung Gar, Fut Gar and others.

yes no?

peace

[Andy]

In my limited exposure to martial arts (training since 1972) I haven't seen any style that was very similar to it. It has high narrow stances and an open gate hand position. Most of its motions are based upon the Pa Kua diagram design and theory so its footwork does have some things in common with Ba Gua style footwork and aikido footwork. It combines linear and circular aspects to constantly move in spiral shaped patterns. This spiral motion applies to both the hands and the feet. Supposedly it was originated by the monk Gee Shim and the nun Ng Mui.

[Spirit Writer]

Those two invented everything, didn't they?;)
What you describe sounds a lot like most styles. A high stance -- even though Soutjern styles are known for low stances, where are these low stances when practitioners are fighting? I never see it. As for Ba Gua footwork, a lot of Ba Gua players don't even understand the full potential and applications of walking the cricle. Most lead with the target, not the weapon.

[Andy]

One of the differences between the Fu Hok footwork and the Ba Gua footwork is that the Fu Hok does not spend much time "walking the circle." My Fu Hok teacher stated that the Ba Gua style predominently plays the outside of the circle while the Fu Hok predominantly plays the center or inside of the circle. Of course both styles can play either inside or outside and transition betwen the two. It's the transition that's the key, the person who controls the transitions controls the fight.

The Fu Hok Yao Gong also has little traditional low stance training but it does have its own way of cultivating leg strentgh.

[David Jamieson]

You consider training since 1972 limited exposure?

That's 30 years. Hardly "limited" by any definition.

High stances are found in Hung Gar. Have you actually looked at Hung Gar? Or Wing Chun or Choy Li Fut or Fut Gar. The name "Fu Hok" would denote that it is related to Hung Gar via Huang Fei Hungs contribution to the style being the Tiger/Crane form. The "Fut" denotes a buddhist martial art aspect and "pai" means clan so it is a so called village style.

I've been training Martial arts since I was a kid. I spent from 94-01 learning strictly Shaolin Martial arts and I don't have difficulty identifying and comparing a variety of Chinese Martial arts.

What are you seeking to compare it to? Why do you want to compare it at all?

Pa Kua is relatively new compared to Shaolin Hung styles, the Tiger Crane came in long after Gee Sim Sin See. How can you not find similarity in this style to other styles? Most styles from the south share many many aspects. High stance like Kim Yeung Ma (pigeon toed) are found in several styles.

Pa Kua styles deal with a 360 degree sphere and not generally with inside, centre or outside the circle. I don't understand where you're coming from with that.

There is no need to over complicate things when it comes to martial arts, and yet so many seek to do so. It is hard work and there are some unusual techniques, but there are physical laws that must be adhered to for any martial art to be of any value as a self defense or health system. If it works it works and there is no need to look further. If it doesn't work for you, then keep practicing until it does. if it never works even after long practice then discard it, it serves no purpose to waste your time on things that will not benefit you.

peace

[Andy]

Hi Kung Lek:

It looks like both you and I have a pretty extensive background in martial arts. I initially began my study of Goshin Justsu karate in 1972. In 1976 I began my study of Wing Chun. In 1991 I started studying my current art Fu Hok Yao Gong Fut Pai. At that time I also began teaching and researching martial arts at a major private university here in the southeastern United States. I've been teaching and researching the martiial arts full time for the past 12 years and making a good living doing it.

In light of your extensive background, I certainly don't want to spend my time here "preaching to the choir" as it were. We both understand the structure and principles behind most martial arts. I am simply looking for others who might have knowledge or experience with the Fu Hok Yao Gong Fut Pai. As far as any comparisons go, I am drawn into making them by others posting to this forum.

I certainly respect your background and knowledge and appreciate your contributions to this thread. I know you'll extend me the same courtesy.

[David Jamieson]

Hi Andy-

I guess i came off a little "terse". My main point was that with the name of the style, there is a definitive tie to Shaolin arts, in particular those related to Hung Fist.

I was having trouble understanding how it was that you couldn't see any similarity to it (Hung).

My Karate Background is Isshin Ryu (Okinawan Goju and Shorin schools). The transference to southern shaolin was not a huge leap although there were differences in principle and application.

Do you not find striking similarities across all martial arts after your uears of training? (no pun intended)

peace

[Andy]

Hi Kung Lek:

Thanks for your responses to me. Yes, I do see a lot of similarities between the Fu Hok Yao Gong and other styles. The general impression I'm getting from history is that irrespective of the shaolin temple, the area around Guangzhou seemed to be a hot bed of martial art innovation. If I'm not mistaken the Hung ga style, the Bak Mei and the Fu Hok Yao Gong among others were all greatly influenced by the goings on in Guangzhou.

[Andy]

If I were to draw parallels I'd say that the Fu Hok Yao Gong is more closely related to the Hakka styles of Bak Mei, & Lung Ying. I have also found similarities in karate's sanchin kata as well. (I personally would like to explore the relationship between the sanchin kata and the iron wire form. If I'm not mistaken there has been a Hung ga practitioner who has written a book on that subject.)Let me know if you have any info on that.

Thanks to the research of Rene Ritchie et al, I saw some similarities between the Fu Hok Yao Gong and the Jee Shim form of Wing Chun. It made me wonder if there's actually some credence in the Jee Shim legend.

Do you know if there are any similarities between the Hung Ga and Jee Shim Wing Chun?

[reneritchie]

The Hakka migrated down from the central plains later than those people now representing the Southern Han. Unlike the Han, the Hakka were not numerous enough to push the previous inhabitants further south (as the Miao, Zhuang, etc. were pushed into South East Asia). During the Qing, they ended up in Fujian where I think they were allied into fighting the Hokkien. They then followed what seems to have been a fairly typical migration down through Guangdong, Guangxi, etc.

The interesting thing is that this migration matches the founding of the Tiandihui (where a small group of men moved from Fujian, thought the Liangguang, into Sichuan, and back), and the old legends of "Southern Shaolin" being destroyed and the monks (and nun) fleeing south. I used to wonder, perhaps, if the stories of "Southern Shaolin" were similar to those of "Southern Mantis" -- a famous northern name (Henan Shaolin of the Tang and Shangdong Mantis of Wang Lang respectively) being adapted as a protective cloth by the Hakka.

Anyway, I have heard of the name Tiger Crane being used by several systems in Guangdong. There's even supposed to be a rare branch of Wing Chun (Hakka Weng Chun, technically) that has, as its main set, Tiger Crane (I think it was performed in public in Foshan in 1997 at a Jing Mo event).

Not sure any of this helps, just thinking out loud.

RR

[GOLDEN ARMOR]

Maybe its related to the old Hung kuen, the old Hung had high stances?

[David Jamieson]

Golden-

One example of so called "old style Hung Gar" is Ha Say Fu(four lower tigers). Ha Say Fu has Kim Yeung Ma (pigeon toed stnce like wing chun also called "yee gee kim yeung ma") as a principle stance. The Square horse(sei ping ma) is a little higher too (not parallel thighs to the ground), at least in the content I was taught from the style.

peace

[Andy]

Hi Kung Lek !

The primary stances used by the Fu Hok Yao Gong are Yut Gee Keem Yeung Ma and the Saam Bo Jin. The Saam Bo Jin of the Fu Hok Yao Gong is very narrow with only a fists distance between the feet.

What is the relationship or evolution between the "old style Hung ga" (Hay Say Fu) and the style as it's practiced today?

[Andy]

Rene !

If you haven't already, would you please take a look at my website and let me know if it gives you any more insight into the origins of the Fu Hok Yao Gong Fut Pai? I think your historical knowledge far exceeds mine. I would certainly appreciate any other insights you might have about it.