Confusing Neija History.

[BAI HE]

I recently read "Martial Musings" by Robert Smith.
One thing that struck me as odd were some of the
inconsistencies of past accounts.

According to Paul Guo, Wang Xiagzhai was defeated by
Shang Yunxiang. Every other account I've heard is
that these to men were friends and shared their knowledge and
not rivals.
Does anyone know the truth of this matter?

Also, in the same book Cheng Man Ching says that Sun Lu Tang
was defeated by Hao Weizhen. Again I thought these men were
friends and that Hao taught Sun his Taiji as a favor.
Does anyone know the truth of this matter?

Thanks, Peter.

[Internal Boxer]

In Sun Lu Tangs book, his daughter has done much to show the fact from the super human fiction that IMA practioners are sometimes given. According to the book. Sun was already a master of Xingyi & Bagua before he met Hao, who was extremely ill Sun help cure Hao of his allfiction, and as a return for the favour, Hao decided to show Sun his Taiji.

It is worth reading Xingyi Quan by Sun Lu Tang, it is a good book.

[BAI HE]

I have. That's why I was confused
when I read the passage in Mr. Smith's
"Martial Musings".

Do you think some may have assumed that
since Sun became his student that that Hao bested
him?

Regards, Peter.

[GLW]

One thing to keep in mind in reading many 'historical' martial arts texts... Most of the famous people were hardly scholars. Also, the concept of history and what is recorded and how in China is vastly different than in the West.

In the West, we at least make an outward attempt to record things with the appearance of being factual...leaving out the fable and propaganda (at least we make it less obvious).

In Chinese histories, they get bothered by the Horatio Alger syndrome...the poor boy makes good. Therefore, they change things like...Yang Luchan was an indentured servant SOLD by his family to the Chen family...and later given his freedom. He did NOT choose to go work for them. Also, he was given his freedom when the Chen elder male died. It was inappropriate for the widow to have a MALE servant that was NOT a Eunuch. Yang was a good servant so he was treated well.

The later stories make sound like more because no one likes to say their style came from a lowly servant boy...

The stories get inflated as well. Fighting one man to a draw can get to fighting 5 people to total destruction.

The Macau fight between Wu and the White Crane stylist gets big air time with the Wu style folks. Having seen the film, I can say that I would be embarassed to acknowledge the fight ever happened if I were connected to either person's lineage. It was BAD.... Yet you have people using it as proof that so and so could fight....

Yang Chengfu was illiterate....yet there are books that are attributed to having him dictate the info to the author (a student). How would Yang know that what he said is what was written? How could an illiterate get the right word with the correct nuances (Chinese is a very precise language...vocabulary is everything). Yet people argue over such things.

The FIRST person to try to add scholarship to this was Tan Hao. He dispelled many myths...and was threatened many times for doing so. Gu Luxin followed in his footsteps... But there aren't too many who are attempting the same level of research now.

[BAI HE]

Thanks GLW. I'm just starting out
researching, but your post certainly
gives me some perspective.

Can you recommend any texts?
Where can I fing writings by Tan Hao and Gu Luxin?

Thank you, Peter.

[Fu-Pow]

Simple reason: Because many of the martial artists of old just like many martial artists of today are nothing more than charlatans and tricksters.

[BAI HE]

Wujidude - Thanks for the info!

Fu-Pow -

[BAI HE]

OOOPS!

Fu-Pow - LOL!!!

[GLW]

It is definitely a pity that much of Gu's writings were lost.

I am fortunate in the fact that my teacher was good friends with both Tang Hao and Gu Luxin. What I can't get from translation and available books in Chinese and English...I can get by talking to them about what they know of Tang's and Gu's research...(They worked with both to some extent...although Tang was of my teacher's father's generation...but was learning history from him (and calligraphy) ....)