Even yet more Temple Kung Fu

[Dreadnaught]

Hi all. I thought I would jump into the fire here and put in my two bits about the ever controversial topic of Temple Kung Fu. First of all, yes I will be remaining anonymous. The reason for this is that I'm still going there, and I am in the process of making up my mind about what I'm going to do with my own personal situation there. Hope you understand. Also, just to be clear right off the bat, I certainly don't want to fight anyone =)

Okay, I have not been there for very long. A little under two years. Certainly not long enough to be privy to many of the Secrets. I'm not going to argue about the effectiveness of the style. My experience is so limited it would be ridiculous for me to. I'm not going to argue about Grandmaster Simon's skills. I have no idea how good he is. He's better than me. Rather, I would like to talk about what is said at Temple Kung Fu and what is done at Temple Kung Fu. I will also be taking some sayings from Temple Kung Fu, and questioning what they actually mean.

I would like very much to hear from people who spent more time than me there. I tried finding answers to some of my questions within the organization, and have pretty much been ignored. If you can defend the organization, great, please do so. I would also like to hear from people who quit there after a long time and know things that I may not.

Some of these quotes I simply copied from another message posted on www.kungfu4u.com. Thanks to that person. I have read the original literature, and to the best of my memory, the quotes that I copied from that message are accurate.


- "Traditional values forbid any Buddhist priest to announce or advertise any given titles or honors other than those which are pronounced by the Temple, henceforth, is the background of the now established "Dalai Seng Shi" only known to a handful of masters who were instrumental in the re-creation of the arts in North America." pg 2/3 of the 'History of the TEMPLE KUNG-Fu Organization' -- Law of the Fist

What is meant by a Buddhist Priest? In Buddhism, the organization began by Sakyamuni Buddha, you are either a monk/nun or a layman/woman. Are they saying Grandmaster Simon was a monk? Is a monk? That he took the 250 precepts that monks are required to follow? Even with all those 250 (sometimes more) rules, I'm not so sure it's forbidden for them to discuss who they were before becoming a monk.

- "His Holiness, the present Dalai Seng Shi, former Grand Master Simon, now World Leader of the Temple, upholds the 23rd succession of the Tookien Shaolin Monastery together with the 2nd most distinctive person of the Temple, the most Gracious Reverend, Guardian of the Temple, the next Dalai Seng Shi to be, D. June Simon (Grand Master of Style in Form), known by the Temple name "Nanlao". (Previous 21st succession was held by Grand Master Lin Fie Hung and the 22nd succession was held by Grand Master Li Kwan Yan) pg 3 of the 'History of the TEMPLE KUNG-Fu Organization' -- Law of the Fist

23rd succession? Lets do the math. Lets say each succession held the lineage for an average of 30 years, that would make the Tookien Shaolin Monastery about 660-690 years old. That would place its beginning of existence in the early 1300s. Has anyone heard of "Tookien"? Seems an awful lot like "Fukien". I'm especially interested if anyone has ever heard of the 21st and 22nd successions. Once again, should a "monastery" not be headed by a monk? Once again, in order to be a Buddhist Monk, one must take 250 precepts laid out for monks by Sakyamuni Buddha before his death.

- "The Neo Ch'an Temple decided to retain the well-established term reflected in the trade name of 'Temple Kung-fu' for the Shaolin Temple Arts to permit better public indentification of these skills, its methods being only taught in the "Temple Kung-fu Studios" which are accredited by the governing Buddhist Temple. These studios have no connection to likewise sounding establishments." pg 3 of the 'History of the TEMPLE KUNG-Fu Organization' -- Law of the Fist

Oh, so it IS a Buddhist Temple. It should be noted that the founder of Buddhism laid down specific rules for a monastery. Many rules, including rules regarding the handling of money.

- "Having practiced and studied the Honan and Fukien Shaolin methods, he has blended the skills of both eras and integrated them into the Temple, meaning that all recognition of achieved learning will again only come from the sacred halls of the Temple." pg 2 of the 'History of the TEMPLE KUNG-Fu Organization' -- Law of the Fist

Well, here Fukien is spelt in the normal way. So the Tookien temple must be another entity? But what? Around 700 years in existence and no one else knows of it? If you do, please speak up.

- "The mentor, who would have a profound influence upon Grand Master Simon, was Fu Yen. This Celestial Master resided in Chuan Chow Shaolin Temple, near the East Buddhist village. On the orders of the Ching government, this temple was destroyed as well but rebuilt just before the year 1860. It was permanently closed in 1926." -- www.templekungfu.com under "History"

All I would like to say at this point is there any mention of Fu Yen outside of Temple Kung Fu Literature?

- "The sacred connection to the motherland China was being upheld by the nephew of the Celestial Master when travelling recently to Red China, visiting the late mayor of the city of Shanghai who was a relative of the Yen family and is now continued through our Celestial Master, Grand Master Simon." -- www.tempekungfu.com under "History"

Okay so the nephew of which celestial master went to China? What a minute, what does this mean? Is this some sort of indecipherable code? Someone please explain it to me.

- "In the 60’s and early 70’s, Grand Master Simon gained an international reputation for his contributions to the art through his unparalleled demonstrations most often for charity..." --www.templekungfu.com under "Our Founder"

I myself cannot find any mention of this International Reputation anywhere outside of Temple Kung Fu literature, and if you know of any mention of this anywhere else please let me know. The best I have found is 2 mentions of Olaf Simon in Black Belt Magazine's archives. Here they are:

"Grand Champion Mike Stone kneels beside trophies he just won after the final match. The trophy on the right was given by Olaf Simon of Canada" --http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/blackbelt/1965/dec65/tournsellout/tournsellout.html

Funny, no mention of him being a part owner of this tournament. (They are talking about the Long Beach tournament in 1965)

"Calgary, Alta., Canada. More than forty karatemen from Alberta Province competed in this tournament, which was promoted beforehand by local radio and television sta-tions. The contest was held at the Simon Karate School." --http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/blackbelt/1965/apr65/wwtourn/wwtourn.html

Once again, a man with such an international reputation, and none of his feats are mentioned.

That's the only mention of Grandmaster Simon's activities in the 60s and 70s I've found outside of Temple Kung Fu, if you have any others I'd like to see them.

- "At first, it was the term Karate, then Kempo, now finaly Kung Fu which labels the superforce of the trained hand." pg. 189 Law of the Fist

A little outdated. I guess it Capoeira now.

-"Having trained since a young boy, now past the age of seventy, He holds an international reputation as the founder of the Temple Kung-fu Studios, and as the originator of his White Tiger (Pai Hu-Shih) style and his White Priest (Pai Seng-Shih) style." -- www.templekungfu.com under "Our Founder"

Well there we go. It's "His" White Tiger style. No claim to be "The" White Tiger style. My White Tiger style by the way is quite formidable.

- "In reality, there is no 'salesman-to-customer' approach in a reputable establishment." pg. 189 Law of the Fist

Temple Students next time your instructor asks if you have read "Law of the Fist", you have your response. For those not in the know, this is an inside joke because indeed some of the "instructors" in the system are nothing more than salesmen. A lot of times they ask if you have read Law of the Fist as a prelude to selling you Law of the Fist.

- "The "advertised honor" is enough to satisfy the conscience of the newly enrolled student, who has often committed himself for a lengthy period of time and for a fair sum of money." pg. 190 Law of the Fist

Where is the honor in the Temple Kung Fu system apart from the advertised kind? Think about it, anyone in Temple Kung Fu. What has Temple Kung Fu done that's "Honorable"? It's all anecdotal. It's all "advertised" Lengthy time for a fair sum of money... indeed.

[KungFuGuy!]

Good post.
Could have gone into the other temple thread, but whatever :D

[awakenwired]

I don't really understand what your digging for. I've heard a ton of negative things about that place. Seems like your still there, and are having some sort of dilema if you should leave or not.

But Dude, with all those questions your asking, it's obvious you know how to research. Obviously your having doubts about that place, and your seeing alot of things that just don't jive. So just leave man. With all those doubts, what magical mystical element is going on there that is holding you there?

[wushu chik]

RUN...i think we are being invaded!! :D GOD, I LOVE BEING A SMARTA$$!!!

~Wen~

[Mr.Sleazy]

Excellent, excellent post. I am happy to see people with lots of experience post here with detailed and correct information on TKF. Rants don't help, but hard info does. I was only there for 1.5 months, then when the KungFuClub contract was foisted on me I left. The place is run more like a car leasing dealership than a legitimate martial arts school.

There are a few things I would like to add, directed at students or ex-students of TKF. The Better Business Bureau of Canada has a good website, and on-line complaint forms may be filed against businesses. TKF is a member of the BBB.

The BC BBB can be found at:
http://www.bbbvan.org/

In addition, on-line resources about BC Small Claims Court may be referenced at:

http://www.cbc.ca/consumers/consumertips/tips_smallclaims.html

and

http://www.ag.gov.bc.ca/courts/small_claims_court.htm

Similar resources exist in the rest of Canada, and I am sure the US also has the same sort of organizations.

Judging by the number of hits on these TKF threads, and the overwhelmingly negative tone of the postings, I consider the dissatisfaction level to be very high with TKF and that the word is getting out.

Good hunting!

[KC Elbows]

As far as I can tell, TKF sounds very similar in beginnings to chung moo quan, of which I was a member until first degree. In my opinion, the main difference appears to be that TKF has attracted a large number of moral people who, upon becoming instructors, realize the moral quandary they're in, and leave. Perhaps it's the the buddhist underpinnings, or the Canadian character, but most seem to leave.

I believe chung moo quan is a similar system based off of a narcisistic founder who, unlike TKF, has found a core group of people who appear to have no moral quandaries in achieving their ends using the same means. Perhaps it's the rather bizarre us vs. them philosophy in chung moo quan(moo doe vs. pa doe), combined with the american love of money.

Other than this, one similarity caught my attention. The absence of sparring. Many have said that this is to attract the hobbyist, but I find it more likely, considering the stress that is placed on the need for the members to give over their money, that this is simply a case of the founder refusing to let any money slip out of his grasp for such things as insurance. As an end result, the followers are denied the chance for confidence in their martial abilities, and so the founder can continuously assert his authority without any serious chance of another taking over the system.

[Dreadnaught]

AwakenWired: Well, I guess I'm just digging for more information because I'm curious. What I'd really like is someone like Law of the Fist to reply to my message and defend the place, but it doesn't look like that'll happen. I know some people might get sick of all this TKF crap, and for that I apologize. As far as my problem, the reason why I'm still going there is because I know how the contracts work, and I've gone to a lot of classes. If I leave I willbe getting hardly anythign back. Lately I've been left alone as far as buying more, and I'm training hard, so I'll continue to go for a little while yet while I decide my next move.

As far as it being cult like... In my opinion it's not cult like in the way that it promotes certain antisocial beliefs, but the system for dealing with money is very cult like. As in they're system for taking your money is similar to that of religious cults.

Slim: Thanks for your post, it did anwer some questions I had in me head....

[KungFuGuy!]

A few good things can be said about temple. Firstly, you're going to get a good work out every time you go in there. Bar none, everyone of every type of shape will work hard every class. Secondly, it's a clean, friendly environment where you'll make lots of friends (who you'll know strictly on a last name basis).
Well that's it. After a couple minutes sitting here thinking, that's all I could come up with. Sorry :(
Just leave, man. I know how you feel, but eventually you'll make the decision to leave and you'll have wasted even more time. Best to do it now and get it over with.
PS: Unfortunately your refund will be 0. I trained there for 6-7 months and my refund would have been 0 if I didn't miss so many kung fu clubs due to schedule conflicts.

[Royal Dragon]

Lack of hard sparring is the signiture of the Mc Dojo in general. The reason is that only a small percentage of the population are born warriors. More have the capacity to become warriors, but even adding the two groups together does not "a profitable school make"

If you want to prosper, you must teach more forms or material, and have little to no sparring. Light sparring for points is ok as it is fun, and not threatening, but the real thing is to emotionally stressfull for most people and THAT drives away students.

Generally, Kids will like light point sparring better than adults.

Student retention is highest when you run a good exercise class that's not to long, but makes'em sweat followed by some forms practice that is broken up into segments, and not a continus non stop traditional run. Example, after about 15-20 minutes of warmup and light conditioning (I often go 25 minutes) Drill basics for about 10 minutes, and then forms for 5 minutes followed by some talking lectures and joking. Then, 5 more minutes for forms. Repeat until you have used up 20 minutes on forms and talking.

The rest of the class is drilling self defence techniques, lecuring wile students are doing so, and telling old war stories of how you "Came up".

The best thing to do is watch some tv, and time the space between comercials. Then based on that time run your lessons so you talk, lecture, joke or tell war stories about your own training for abit in segmented time frames at about the same time TV takes comercial breaks. Either that, or change the lesson.

Example start warmups with light cardio, do this until the average TV show takes a comercial break, then switch to stretching. Again, continue this until the commercial would be over. Then do some conditioning until the average TV show takes a comercial break and switch to forms. Continue until the comercial would be over, stop the class have them shake thier legs out etc and do some more forms for the same amount of time a TV show runs before taking a comercial break.

Do you see a theme running above?? You should. The TV timming method (A trade marked phrase by me of course) is what works best for student retention as we are all brainwashed to think in those time frames.

[Insert Royal Dragon Infomercial here]

[BrentCarey]

Let me first preface my comments. I was an assistant instructor for some time at TKF in Spokane, WA over 10 years ago. I have met and/or know most of the people involved and mentioned so far. I have specific knowledge about the business and training practices of TKF. When I became an employee of TKF I signed a non-disclosure / non-compete agreement which expired several years ago. I left TKF for three reasons: 1) I was ethically opposed to the business practices at the time, 2) I could not afford to live on my wages, 3) I was called upon to serve my country and community.

With that said, let me also disclose that I am currently teaching kung fu classes in Spokane, WA that are directly competitive with TKF. So, my comments must be restrained by good legal sense and strong business ethics. Therefore, I may not be able to answer all questions.

I will, however, state the following:

1) TKF is a business. If you go to any school that owns or leases commercial space, pays employees, and has other business-related expenses, that entity is a business. Martial artists like to live romantically and believe that their school is not really a business - Mr. Miyagi style. This is a myth. So, let's get past criticizing TKF for trying to turn a profit.

2) Mr. Simon is a businessman. He is also a competent martial artist. Most school owners paint their history in the best possible light to attract students. This is called marketing and is something that all successful businesses must do. Without effective marketing (word-of-mouth, advertisements, or whatever), students will not join, the school will cease to exist. Let's also get past criticizing Mr. Simon for his attempts to market TKF.

3) Having stated #1 and #2 above, I can tell you that although Mr. Simon is a competent martial artist, his history has been misleadingly stated for marketing purposes. This point is largely moot since his skills and experience are almost entirely irrelevant to the quality and content of training students will receive while at TKF. Mr. Simon has almost nothing to do with the training. This was at least true when I was there.

4) The training is good. If you come to TKF and apply yourself, you will get in great shape, learn solid martial arts fundamentals, and learn some viable self-defense. You will not learn how to compete.

5) You will not learn Chinese kung fu as such, but we are really splitting hairs here. The real issue here seems to be disclosure. People seem to be bent out of shape that they are sold kung fu and got kempo. That's like ordering a Big Mac and getting a Whopper. If if tastes good and satisfies your hunger it doesn't really matter. TKF gives most consumers what they really want - a great workout and the illusion that they are becoming martial artists. Most people simply don't stick with it long enough to matter. What seems to matter here is the issue of feeling misled. Misleading as it may be, it does not categorically invalidate the training. The training you receive at TKF may or may not be poor, but this has nothing to do with what it is called. If you have specific requirements for historical integrity of a pure Chinese lineage - good luck.

6) Having stated #5, I will backtrack and state that what you get depends on the instructor. There are good instructors and bad instructors. Good instructors will teach you good kung fu, bad instructors will teach you bad kung fu. Call it kung fu, karate, or whatever you want. Most TKF instructors become good instructors by training on their own and with other instructors. Back when I was there, there was a good network of instructors visiting the other studios and spreading techniques and training around. We had some great training after hours, on the weekends, and between classes.

7) TKF is very expensive. However, if you can afford the cost, enjoy going there, have a good instructor (you might or might not), understand that the marketing strategy is misleading and can live with that, then there is nothing wrong with paying for the service. Many people, myself included, will tell you that some of their fondest memories are from TKF. They provide a great service even if it is not exactly as advertised.

8) You will be misled and sold to. Some TKF schools are better than others. In Spokane, it sounds like we were much better than some others from some of the experiences I have heard about. I know that we were also underperforming financially and frequently under pressure to bring more money in. Understand that just about all schools make misleading statements and deploy sales tactics. If a person thinks that his/her school is an exception, he/she is probably wrong. The issue with TKF is one of scale more than of practice.

9) Instructors are hired/promoted prematurely. Now that most of the really good ones have gone, that seems to be more true than it was when I was there. However, some of these people are quite competent, even if underexperienced. Also, they are probably progressing very rapidly. This was probably more true back when there were more experienced instructors overseeing their progress.

10) I knew Mr. Shergold and Mr. Piercey. They were high-quality martial artists and seemed to be good people. In Spokane, we had the most contact with them. I met some of the other masters, but never really trained with them or got to know them at all.

11) When I was at TKF, the Neo-Chan thing was fairly young. I believe it was a mostly Buddhist movement at that time. At TKF you can actually learn good meditation techniques. There is nothing cultish about it.

12) Mr. Simon has used himself as a central marketing point. It is in his best interest to build up the myth. Most people don't take it too seriously. I don't know if he does or not.

13) The issue of labelling kempo as kung fu is a difficult one for most people to understand, particularly younger people. Remember that prior to WW2, no one in North America knew what karate or kung fu were. Karate caught on shortly thereafter, but the term "kung fu" wasn't a household term until the Bruce Lee era. Let me give an example. I teach some youth martial arts at the local YMCA. The class is in the catalog as "Youth Karate". Why? Well, because not very many kids will sign up for "Youth Kung Fu" because they and/or their parents don't know very much about it. The beginning kids learn kempo fundamentals (borrowed from TKF experiences), but the advanced kids are learning kung fu. The only difference is that I am upfront about this to the students and their parents. I wear a kung fu uniform and tell them that I am a kung fu teacher, but that the basics that I teach are common to kempo karate as well. Incidentally, I teach kempo fundamentals because they are easy to grasp and provide a good foundation for more complex kung fu techniques.

14) The Kung Fu Club - This was the final straw for me. Let me state that my experiences with this are about 10 years old and isolated to Spokane. Things may have changed or be different at other studios. Very early in a student's training, we were under pressure to invite them to join the KFC. The reasons for this are simple. When a student starts out, they are not likely to train for more than three months. At the beginning their enthusiasm is high. This is the best time to sign them up for a long-term commitment. They still will probably not train for very long, but at least they will have paid their money. This is a shrewd and effective (if not predatorial) business tactic. What disturbed me was that the KFC was presented as an elite group that required members to be voted unanimously in by a board. No one has ever been rejected by a KFC board to my knowledge. As an instructor, I argued adamantly against the acceptance of one student who I felt had questionable character. My vote was ignored. The KFC is a worthwhile group. When I was there, we really did some valuable training. It really was where the "good" stuff was taught. All of the ceremony and mystery surrounding it is/was just for sales/marketing purposes though.

So, I just want to conclude by saying that while certainly some questionable ethics have been used by TKF in the past, and are possibly still in use (I don't know), we should not **** the entire organization. There are plenty of good instructors and students there. In fact, I haven't found a school (other than my own) that I enjoyed going to more.

Yes, I had to leave TKF to really advance in "kung fu", but I could have advanced there generally as a martial artist if I could have stomached the business practices. When I left, I was relatively young and idealistic. Now I am a bit older and wiser in the ways of the world. I can't abide the misleading and high-pressure tactics, but I can't condemn the entire organization for them.

If anyone has specific questions, I would be happy to answer them anyway I can. If you are in the Spokane area, give me a call and I would be more than happy to meet with you in person or on the phone and discuss TKF, kung fu in general, or whatever.

I don't want to get into a public flame war with TKF. I hold no malice and wish them only the best. They do have some issues that need to be cleaned up, however. I feel that by discussing them openly, students can be better informed and therefore cultivate a more mutually beneficial relationship with TKF that results in fewer disappointments on both sides.

I have taken a reactionary position with my classes. I believe that all you have to do to run a successful business is tell customers what they can expect to receive, and what they can expect to pay (in terms of time, money, and effort). Then, you give them a little more than what you told them you would. Incidentally, this is also how you produce successful students.

Peace,

Brent Carey

[slim]

Thank-you for a solid reply Brent. I would just like to add that I have 8 years of experience with TKF and agree with you whole-heartedly.

I also invite anyone (student at TKF or otherwise) who has questions about TKF to ask me by private message. Let's undermine some of the taboo surrounding discussion of TKF by its students and answer some of their questions.

There seems to be some agreement that people can get a decent experience out of the place and with some hard work can get good training in MA fundamentals. But people must go into it as informed consumers.

[BrentCarey]

Originally posted by slim
Finally, I'd just like to ask everyone "do you think it's possible for a chain of schools to be run in a morally sound way?" It seems like a good way to keep a style together and build a large student body but does this kind of corruption automatically come with the turf?

Good post in general, and a good question. To specifically answer the question, "Do you think it's possible for a chain of schools to be run in a morally sound way?", without reading too much into the question, I would have to reply thusly.

Yes, of course it is possible. Perhaps it is difficult, but I really don't think so. The real issue is that successful chains are run by successful businessmen. Martial arts proficiency and instructor competence don't enter into it much. The rules of running a profitable school are simple:

1) Get as many people to call as possible.
2) Once people call, get as many to come in as possible.
3) Once they come in, get as many to pay you some money (any money) as possible.
4) Get them hooked with their first few lessons.
5) Build up their ego and enthusiasm. Get them stoked about training. Then, get as much money as possible as early as possible because most people don't stay longer than 3 months.
6) Keep them around as long as possible.

This is how 90%+ of schools run - like it or not. There are slight variations on this, but the basic plan is the same. Some schools focus more on recruiting and don't care much about retention (TKF). Others focus more on retention. Some increase fees the deeper a student gets into training when they are less likely to throw away all of the time/money they have invested.

Anyway, this is how chains work for the most part. There is nothing inherently wrong, immoral, or unethical about this provided:

1) Students are not misled. Complete disclosure upfront is critical. Otherwise, it's quite a bit like signing a 30 year mortgage on a house, then having the bank turn around and say, "Well, if you want to keep your house, you'll need to pay these additional fees that we didn't tell you about when you signed."

2) Friendly relationships between instructors and students are not leveraged for business gains.

3) False claims are not made.

4) Students are not pressured to pay more than they can comfortably afford.

Incidentally, I don't believe it is necessary for an instructor to provide a complete disclosure of his/her qualifications. I realize this is controversial, but I believe valid. Here is my reasoning:

When students start out in MA, they have no way of evaluating instructors. If instructor X says that he is a 3rd Degree Black Belt in Sum Yung Gai, and instructor Y says that he is a 5th Degree Black Belt in Chu Da Fat, the neophyte will naturally believe that instructor Y is superior.

One of the greatest martial artists I have ever met has no belt in any style. He learned kung fu from his father - that's it. This whole practice of attempting to objectively describe martial artists' abilities is meaningless - absolutely.

If Sifu Bob gives me such and such title, then I have to ask myself how much I trust Bob. I find out that Bob learned from Joe. Well, how much do I trust Joe? .... and so on. The sooner the martial arts community separates the myth from reality, the sooner we will all be able to move on. Pure and ancient lineages barely exist if at all.

In a world where a college degree definitely is no indication of how smart the holder is, what makes us believe that a much less structured more fragmented society (such as the martial arts community) can produce meaningful degrees? If I have learned nothing else in almost 25 years of martial arts experience, I have learned that it is very much an individual pursuit. There are good martial artists and poor martial artists, no belt, certificate, or family tree can give you any indication which is which.

When a person asks me, "Are you a black belt?", I reply, "Are you an avacado?"


Peace,

Brent Carey

[Merryprankster]

You is college edjumacated?

More importantly, does your avocado have a blackbelt?

[KungFuGuy!]

Spies?? :rolleyes:
Anyways, how can you agree with him? What he is saying is contradicting everything you're standing for in the other thread. He's mostly correct (although much has changed over the years), but if you want to hold true to your original word, you should be disagreeing with him.

[KungFuGuy!]

Actually, I found a lot of my fellow students to be rather out of shape. Maybe it's my area, I dunno. I didn't mind, in fact it only improved my training. For example, we used to occaisonaly do a leg strengthening exercise where one person would stand in a horse stance facing a wall, and the other would stand up on the first persons legs. If it wasn't for the "large" people who I kept getting partnered up with, my legs would be a little weaker today :D

[anerlich]

Good posts Brent Carey.

I believe it is possible to run a chain of schools with integrity. I am happy to belong to such an organisation. The problem comes when the quality of the offering is compromised to meet other goals, be they financial or the ego and lifestyle of the chief instructors.

It is a fine thing to make a living teaching people a useful martial art. To do so, one needs to adopt sound business practices and plan and conduct oneself accordingly. Some see this as selling out.

A guy teaching a few guys in his backyard may be a purist who hasn't sold out, or he may be someone who doesn't have the drive or ability to expand so his message can reach more people. A guy running a chain of schools may a money-grabbing con artist who has compromised his MA's ideals, or he may be a committed person who want to take ihs stuff to the world and has managed to do it due to his sound and ethical business abilities.

[Mr.Sleazy]

BrentCarey:

The whopper/big mac analogy is a good one. Unfortunately at Temple Kung Fu, they present their whopper not as a big mac but as a fine french meal, and at the cost of a fine french meal. However, it is definitely a whopper.

Mr. LawoftheFist:

My take on the KFClub board meeting is that its primary purpose is to make the potential member less likely to refuse to pay the ridiculous KFClub contract costs. At my meeting, it was made very clear to me that the members had volunteered their time, and that it was a priviledge to be invited into this club. The interview itself took some time, and following the interview (before the student has agreed to join), I was made to recite an extremely long and rambling oath of loyalty to KFClub. In addition, even though I asked several times, I was not told how much KFClub would cost before the interview.

Does TKF really have spies?? Why? More like undercover cops, I would think.

I am happy to see some hard information in this thread. I wish very much that I had done some detailed research before signing up at TKF, if I had I would have saved a lot of money.

My particular problem with TKF is their business ethics and through that a lack of respect towards students. I would honestly like to see them run out of Vancouver, but I don't think this is realistic. I appreciate the posts of those who have been chief instructors at TKF, but if the business practises you used yourself with your students are anything like the pressure and manipulation I observed during my month and a half at TKF, then you bear some responsibility yourself for the effects of those practises.

At a good, legitimate MA school, the first priority should be teaching students to be good martial artists. From this, profits should follow. I have no problem at all with someone making money from teaching martial arts, in fact professionalism in a discipline is a good thing. At TKF, however, profits come first and professionalism DOES NOT follow.

I have stated many times my opinion the KFClub contract is illegal in BC, because it lasts for more than 2 years. There are a number of other examples of shady business ethics at TKF. They utilize psychological manipulation in order to maximize profits, which shows a profound lack of respect towards students.

When students first phone to enquire about TKF, they are invited to the school for an interview. Prospective students are not allowed to view a class, but are sold an intro lesson package of 8 private lessons for $160. This is a good deal. The student is NOT told how much further training will cost (I asked).

During the initial lessons, students train almost exclusively with an instructor, not other students. Before their 8 lessons expire, they are invited to join the orange belt program, which lasts for 1 year and costs approx. $CDN 1300. The student's progress and ability are praised with a transparent "testing procedure", and then the orange belt contract is introduced.

During the intro period, the KFClub is not mentioned. Neither is the fact that in the future, private lessons will diminish substantially. When students join the orange belt program, they must buy a uniform (reasonable), the Law of Fisting book (stupid), and "sparring pads" which are exclusive to TKF's style and cannot be used anywhere else (really really stupid). All uniforms, pads, shoes, books, and other mandatory purchases are manufactured by a company which I think is owned by OE Simon or his "Buddhist" temple.

As the posters above stated, the school pressures the students to sign long-term contracts early in their training when they are still keen but also when they have less knowledge about martial arts. For the salesmen at TKF, it is a big bonus if students have no prior knowledge of martial arts, because that way sales are easier.

At TKF, sales come first, and martial arts instruction comes second. I had no problem with the style being taught, and the instruction itself was good. I do object to shady and illegal business practises being foisted off on largely beginner students in order to maximize the profits of Simon and the franchise owners. This is what I mean about lack of respect for students. If good teaching came first, and profits were expected to follow, that would be fine. Temple Kung Fu is the other way around, however.

[BrentCarey]

Originally posted by Mr.Sleazy
Does TKF really have spies?? Why?

Yes. Believe it or not we would get this all the time. An area school would send some some student down to try to find out what we were teaching. I think it was because the training was pretty secretive and people can't stand secrets. Kind of an Area 51 sort of thing I guess. This probably takes place in other schools too.

There was nothing mystical about the training, but I guess they just had to know what was going on. I had a good friend that had relationships with just about every school in town. He would usually let me on to these people.

We would also get occasional challenges and threats from other schools. How WWF is that?

It goes to show you the low state of business ethics in this business. Believe it or not, like it or not, they are pretty thin in most cases. <sigh> It is ironic that many/most schools also presume to teach a moral code.

Like I said before, it is not so much that TKF has done anything uniquely wrong. They have done what many other schools do every day. The difference is that a) they have been doing it for a while on a large scale, b) people are talking about it, c) the exact nature of their practices is somehow less palatable, and d) the egocentricity of Mr. Simon leaves a bad taste in people's mouths.

Frankly, as I said before, the training was good. People liked it there and had a great loyalty for the place and the other people there. We definitely had something that other schools didn't have - something that TKF was able to charge a lot of money for. It is natural that other schools wanted to know what was going on I suppose.

As for instructors such as myself bearing some responsibility - well, of course. That's why most of us left as soon as we figured out what was really going on and realized we couldn't change it.

What others should understand is that these practices are/were not explicitly talked about even among instructors. We were actually serious martial artists trying to do something meaningful (at least some of us were). It took a while for the full picture to become clear. It's not like you get hired, then go to a secret employee orientation where all of the practices are revealed. In my case anyway, I just accepted things at first, assuming that was the way the MA school business is run.

So, my point is that if you disagree with the way your local TKF school is run, don't automatically condemn your instructor. He/she probably doesn't like it either, but believes in the school and wants to try to stay and do some good.

As I mentioned, when I left I was pretty idealistic. Since then, I've come to find out that TKF was really no worse than 90% of the schools out there. For several years I felt that it was the only way to run a successful school (in this country anyway). When your strongest competitors are using deceptive tactics, it is difficult to compete with them.

My approach to this is to use traditional marketing techniques to attempt to attract new students, then give them as much information about the real world of MA as possible. This will shatter the Mr. Miyagi / Shaolin Temple illusion for some, but it will allow them to set their expectations realistically wherever they go.

It is important for me to be as transparent as possible so that students know exactly who I am and what I stand for. That's why I use my full, real name in all of these posts. As Adam Hsu wrote, I am only a kung fu instructor. Incidentally, that's a great article. See part of it at http://www.adamhsu.com/spr/instructor.html. Also, buy the book. It is excellent.

Hopefully people will appreciate the candor. Unfortunately, many people don't want to lose the illusion. For many, the illusion is martial arts.


Peace,

Brent Carey

[wushu chik]

Guys, we get them all the time too. One of the local "Kung Fu" schools sends people all the time, as well does a few of the TKD schools (no idea why). It's something that happens a lot.

Personally, about TKF, there's nothing anyone can do, so just let it be. Its like trying to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that someones a fraud. The prob is, when you have people like LOTF constantly making excuses for everything that's brought up, it's hard. Too many people in the world that will fall for anything. As long as it's sugar coated and sweet, they will bite!

~Wen~

[slim]

I would just like to sum up my posts with -

What really tears me up about TKF is that the place has so much potential. The teachers for the most part are great guys and the students have a blast there. This is why fees can be raised, and merchandise can be aggressively sold. The students love the place and tolerate a lot just to stay. Personally, I gained a great deal from my time there but the salesmanship can get overwhelming.

The disappointing thing is that if the school had just left Olaf Simon's credentials to the truth and allowed freedom of information in his business tactics the place would be known as a very solid school.

P.S. - This thread has been a very good discussion - let's do our best to not let it degrade into name calling, challenges and argument.

[BrentCarey]

Originally posted by slim
I would just like to sum up my posts with -

What really tears me up about TKF is that the place has so much potential. The teachers for the most part are great guys and the students have a blast there. This is why Simon can get away with raising fees, force feeding students with his books etc... and maintain a business. The students love the place and tolerate a lot just to stay.


You hit the nail on the head. These are my sentiments as well.


Peace,

Brent Carey

[BAI HE]

There goes his holiness, tearing
down the road to "enlightenment"
in a brand new Viper.

Que lastima.

Sounds like the real problem with TKF is Simon.

[Brad]

There goes his holiness, tearing
down the road to "enlightenment"
in a brand new Viper.
LOL

[BAI HE]

They say money has no odor.
Take a whiff, it stinks.

[BAI HE]

Unfortunately he has probably provided the hardware (ie: locations and equiptment) that would be harder for an
expatriate instructor to replicate.
Money talks, dreams float.
If in fact the system Simon has handed down in similar
to Ed Parker's Kenpo, that is great news.
Kenpo will put you in phenomonal physical and psychological shape in no time at all.

So perhaps on the strength of what Simon started and may have
perverted some have found a way to traditional health and
self-defense arts.
That can't be all bad then eh?

[guohuen]

Cognative disodence= When someone states something that is against their true beliefs, they will then come to believe it.

[KC Elbows]

I have yet to see a single large martial art chain that did not sell inferior instruction at high prices.

I totally disagree with the idea that that is how the business has to be done. I understand that marketing is important for a business, but when the process becomes more important than the product, then all you have is hype. There are plenty of successful martial arts schools that do not sell out. They may not make as much as a chain of mckwoons, but they have the respect of their peers, and they have a stable business.

Schools of martial arts should be run by people who know a system of martial arts, not people who are basically beginners in a system. If there is only one or two people who know the entire system, and there are twenty schools, there's at least 15 too many schools, and many students who are not being offered what they are paying for. This, in turn, will lead to negative publicity AND word of mouth, as well as a poor overall reputation among your peers. In addition, such a school has nothing to offer to the advanced students of martial arts, save the potential to make a little money in a larger money making scheme that they could replicate on their own, so instead of being the middle man in such an operation, the advanced student, were his or her character such, could merely put themselves on the top of a similar pyramid structure(and these schools are pyramids, with status dependent on what rank the top allows you, or takes away as the case may be).

Wai lun choi has one of the most successful martial arts schools in the US, yet has retained the respect of the martial arts community. What people pay for at his school, they get. He doesn't need to make all sorts of metaphysical claims, and when you pay a lot at his schools, you get much more out of it than when you pay the same amount at a school run like the mckwoons.

Basically, this all should make it patently clear that schools run using the sort of model that cmq, tkf, and other similar schools use only profit off of one group: the uninformed consumer, and generally make no long term money off of the well informed. Seeing as the uninformed consumer, 9 times out of ten, will either stop using the product being sold, or, in the long term, become informed, the mckwoon has no stable base, and will quickly reach the threshold where they no longer have enough qualified individuals to run the large number of schools they produced in their period of growth, and a general decrease in quality individuals coming up through the ranks due to the exaggerated student to instructor ratio, which is what both TKF and CMQ are experiencing right now.

Once at this point, the dream of opening scores of school is no longer possible, as the growth first seen in the mckwoon can no longer be continued, and the negative publicity created by insufficient instruction, grandiose claims, and high fees, now work against the organization. At such a point, attrition will slowly take away the instructor base, who cannot look forward to opening their own schools, as the market just won't support it. Therefore, all that will be left will be a small number of instructors entrenched within the system, and a large number of individuals advancing within the ranks of a system that cannot support further instructors, yet at the same time, desparately needs them. Many will instruct for a time with little or no renumeration, but not indefinitely, and so the system is doomed to suffer a series of closures, and with those closures, further loss in reputation.

In addition, the experienced will learn of other schools, and meet practitioners whose martial arts are superior to theirs due to superior instruction. These individuals will likely find that their counterparts in other schools are paying less for more, as is the consumer's right and duty. Eventually, these students will leave and further compound the schools difficulties in relation to quality of practitioner.

And then, you have the true mckwoon at it's lowest.

BTW, whoever assumed that all schools worth seeing cost money is wrong. Two of the toughest fighting schools out here are free, though you must be accepted as a student. Both are very traditional, and work very hard and rough to get where they are at, and both are highly respected by the local practitioners.

[YongChun]

Hi Everyone,

I am new to this forum however I can relate to some of the things discussed. I studied under Olaf Simon in 1967-1969. At that time it was called Simon Karate Studios. On the wall he had some certificate that said he was a 7th degree blackbelt. I don't know where he got it from bt on thinking back and comparing against what I know are 5th degree black belts, I would say he was much better than them in skill and knowledge. I know he generated some pretty god balckbelts in Calgary and Edmonton. Some names that come to mind are Randy Ness, Lyndon and Edward Bateson, Dwight Sher and there were many others. Dwight Sher was very good at tournament fighting and operated his own Karate school in Saskatchewan. I don't think he ever learned anything to do with Kung Fu, just pure Karate. I remember we did pretty well all of the forms I saw in one of Mas Oyama's books which were published at the time. Olaf Simon did speak of Tsuroka in Toronto and he did spend time in that city so maybe something was learned there. Definitely he was very talented. Lydon Bateson him self generated some very excellent Karate practitioners such as Mike Pucket in Victoria and Stan Pederick a world level kickboxing champion. When I joined Margi Hilbig was also there. Classs were very disciplined and Olaf Simon always led the classes and sparred with everyone in the class. Their kicking skills were very good.

when I was there I heard that Simon's best student by the name of Heinz turned on him as soon as he was awarded his blackbelt. Apparently Heinz met some people from Hong Kung who were very good at Hung style. These people convinced Heinz that Karate was garbage. So after learning some Hung style Heinz challenged Simon to an all out duel. A while later the Hung style teachers themselves showed up at Simon's Karate studios and said they just wanted to talk. Then in the middle of the talk they tried to "Sucker kick" him with a low kick. However Simon dummped him on his head very hard. He got up shaking and they realized Simon was no pushover. So they left. After that he received no more threats from them. Olaf Simon also had a rivalry going with the Alberta Judo champion at that time who thought karate was useless. Olaf spent some time with some pretty hefty football players analyzing the effectiveness of some of his hits.

After these incdents Olaf Simon for the first time introduced what he called Moo Kung Fu which he said was a Northern style. He said it had 4 forms consisting of about 400 motions. He demonstrated one of those forms and taught this to a special clas. At that time there asn't this high fee program. I was studying in Edmonton at the time . I think this new Kung Fu development was started in about 1968. When Simon taught, he would teach many many thgings. Each lesson he taughta dozen or so new techniques against punches and kicks. The Kung Fu stuff definitely was not Karate, it seemed like Kung Fu actions put on top of a Kenpo base. However some of the footwork and hand actions were not from Kenpo either so I don't know where this stuff cam from. I heard he taught some people in China town some things he never taught at the studio. Perhaps he exchanged knowledge with someone there. Some of the kicks I saw Lyndon Bateson do resembled the kicks from My Jong Law Horn. They were very fancy flying spinning kicks which were countered using the same technique, namely jumping, spinning and messing with the technique using exact timing.

Olaf Simon was very exceptional at tournaments demonstrating sparring against four good blackbelts simultaniously, smashing 12 pation tiles, big ice blocks or perhaps one hard brick (not baked). Also he demonstrtaed knife defense by giving each of his students a knife in turn and having them attack him how they likes. He also used a sword to fo this but said this was a bit dangerouss. He told he students that the breaking was just showmanship for business reasons and didn't recoomend anyone learn this. However his student Dwight Sher also became a pretty good breaker. Dwight did compete also in the USA Karate tournamants and in one got his ribs kicked in with a spinning roundhouse kick yet he still managed to drive home. He used his Karate one day to save some guys life at a meat packing plant where he worked when someone was attacking a fellow worker with a large butcher knife.

I remember going to a Karate tournament help in Penticton. A blackbelt from another style sponsored it. His name was Emil Rpack, he was also very good. Him and Dwights Sher battled it out with impressive style and then Simon took the both of them on. The fights were pretty good. Back then there was talk of Bruce Lee and Joe Lewis the Karate champion. Simon said he figured he could still give Joe Lewis a run for his money. I think it was a fair statement and was not exaggerated. He didn't say he would win for sure but ponly that he was in his league.

At the end of 1969 we sudenly got new badges from Ed Parker's Kenpo studio. Apparently Simon tried to use Ed Parker's markting approach. I think this was the time that Simon took a new path and decided to go into big business. At that time I moved to Toronto an started to study Hung style, later Tai Chi and later Wing Chun. From my studies I conclude Simon's Karate was top notch. His Kung Fu resembled a combination of Northern style something judging from the kicks and stances and other parts resembled Kenpo with it's millions of techniques on top of a Karate base.

Olaf Simon didn't think Bruce Lee was that good however his students all felt that Bruce Lee was good. I remember Lyndon Bateson copying Bruce Lee's moves from the show "The green Hornet" Everyone was impressed except Olaf Simon. – to be continued

[YongChun]

Years later I saw some temple Kung Fu adds where Olaf Simon was on some bridge doing some wavy hand actions. When I saw this I thought, that's not the Simon I knew. It didn't look like a powerful Kung Fu or Karate and didn't resemble anything I saw hi do before. Still later I saw Olaf Simon using these strange titles. The whole thing seemed like a religious movement. When I think about the Karate days many students talked about Simon like he was a kind of god but then it was based purely on his fighting skill and not on his talk. By a god I mean the normal way Aikido students view their teacher's awhich I call treating them like they are some kind of God.

What Simon's base fighting style was, is hard to say . He wouldn't teach that. He just taught millions of actions and you never knew what his real fighting style was. I think he didn't have an easy time with the Karate because of opposition from Judo people, and others. Olaf was a big fan of Chinese martial arts. Although he was very proficient in the Japanese Karate he didn't speak highly of the Japanese the same I suppose as Bruce Lee and his ideas about the Japanses so it was nothing new.

When Simon did his patio block breaks, he would try for a maximum number let's say 12, they wouldn't break so he removed one and then he did it. His hand sometimes would look pretty bruised. In those days Olaf Simon would talk about Mas Oyama a lot and all the things he technically did wrong.

I think business pressures, maybe his divorce, his desire for wealth, maybe a power trip, the failure of maybe USA people to recognize him and many other factors probably combined to set him on this strange course. Definitely Simon succeeded in business. In the 70's various people created fortune's using underhand methods. In Wing Chun someone by the name of Leung Ting was even more successful making more than 10 million dollars teaching. But in each case something of value was taught.

I heard about Olaf Simon's marketing approach years later when I visited one of his "Master" students in Calgary. I forget his name. Anyway he was very open and honest with me and explained the various methods to keep students and to maximiza the amount of money paid by each student. This person didn't like doing that so he split from Simon but still taught his basic stuff. He himself also made a considerable amount of money.

Now when I see Olaf Sion calling himself "His Holiness" I just can't relate to that. we just called him Simon or Olaf even to his face, at least his blackbelts did. But everyone did treat him with respect for his fighting. Simon taught one form that consisted of only elbows applied from al angles. He had many varieties of arm breaks that were not of Kenpo or Karate origin. Somin demonstrated a bit of Tai Chi once but when I later learned Tai Chi I knew it was just some hand actions without the Tai Chi base footwork and arm and body coordination.

In my view it seems that something happened to Olaf Simon to set him on this strange path. If it is not a cult, many things are very cultish looking. Simon has set himself up as sort of a Pope figure who is unapproachable bt mere mortals - this is what I get from my very surface knowledge of him now.

I was disappointed at the various books he wrote. The book law of the fist shows some of the Karate he taught and includes the postures of what he called Moo style Kung Fu. He taught vbarious breaks and locks out of those stances. The pictures are from the 60's when I was a student in Calgary and Edmonton.

I guess strange things happen to some people in their lives. Who knows what his thinking is. I read the court testimony of Olaf Simon and it also doesn't seem normal. It was very evasive and non specific. He was not at all like that in the 1960's.

I kind of think his stories of the origin's of his art are not true and were just some marketing gimic. Many other people did that in those days including Wing Chun with it's made up story of Yim Wing Chun and the nun Ng Mui. In those days we just cared about fighting effectiveness and there was little mystical talk. That must have developed later.

From Ed Paker's book about Chinese Kung Fu I can see that Ed Parker was familiar with a variety of Kung Fu systems. Him and Simon may have exchanged ideas. I don't think Simon learnd his Kung Fu from Ed Parker, maybe some Kenpo. I don't think he learned anything from Ark Wong since his style was didn't resemble a true Sothern style in my eyes. - too be continued

These are just my observations and thoughts, some of which could be wrong. Perhaps physicall Simon couldn't keep up with his own 60's reputation and had to take this new tack to survice financially. Perhaps he just had this giant dream and this is his implemenation of it. I doubt if any of the Buddhist origins and his lineage can every be traced. These things are usually a waste of time to check out.

I think maybe Olaf Simon doesn't have a complete Kung Fu system since he hesitates to write anything about it except talk of some temple which may have worked in the 70's but not now. The temple monks now are almost like circus performers. In Simon's old days the goverment in China outlawed real martial arts practice.

The White Tiger style was something that came after my time with Simon. I have no idea how that relates to his Moo style. The Moo style was taught the same way as Kenpo by teaching a dozen new techniques everyday with no real Kung Fu base of any kind. Real Kung Fu is generally taught in a very different way which doesn't lend itself to mass marketing and money making.

It's too bad Olaf Simon is no longer doing martial arts or has ever filmed his stuff. Maybe there isn't much to it except a large collection of isolated techniques. If Simon's origin's are true then there should be other people who practice a similar kind of art, I don't think there are other than the Kenpo people.

Yongchun

[KC Elbows]

YongChun,
Very interesting post. Again, this seems to be a parallel between the history of Temple Kung Fu and Chung Moo Quan. Everyone I've ever spoken with described the original chung moo quan school as something much different than it is now. Whereas chung moo quan uses no sparring now, they did in the early years, before they became a business empire. The students practiced directly under John C. Kim, who was probably teaching a form of tang soo doe. Then, all these other chung moo quan schools were opened, and John C. Kim became this mythic character, supposedly able to fall from 11 story buildings and land unharmed among other things, as well as supposedly being the "Champion of All Asia".

In the later years, kim was(is) practically worshipped, and everything he says on ANY topic is like gospel to the organization members.

Interesting to see so many parallels between the histories of two separate but similar schools.

[252aCtUa|*]

i know this is my first post on this forum and i regret that it has to be on this subject. i have been spending my last few days glued to thease forums trying to find the answer to my delima. which it seems many of you have faced before me. it seems now the answer is obvious.

i currently live in the seattle area and have been attending TKF for more than a year. not knowing of any schools in the area, i somehow ended up in one of the so called "interviews" were the instructor spoke of the acomplishments and the history of O. E. Simon, telling me that he was the "only westerner to train in the shaolin temple", and he frequently visited his studios giving lessons to his beloved students, blah blah blah. he seemed friendly and competant so i signed up for a trial of 6 lessons were they evaluate your ability and were you can see if you want to stay. the instructors i started with were very knowlagable and every day i was excited to work with them . we spoke often about different styles and how that after learning the basics of there style, i would move on to a more advanced level were we would train something that (more resembled kung-fu).. i had a great time my first few days and so i decided to join for a year which seemed reasonable to me for the price. being able to train 4 to 5 days a week was something that greatly appealed to me so i decided to try it out.

my first few weeks were great i did get quite a workout and the stance and footwork training seem like a good foundation.
having paid for my first year from money i had saved for just such a situation {traning}, i relaxed and settled into my weekly routene not worrying about money because i was able to take care of it all at once. not 2 weeks into my training i was offered the "seemingly rare" chance to join the temple kung-fu club, which they presented as a prestegious invitation only club that trained in a family type situation, in advanced techniques. "great i thought now we get to start with the good stuff". so i ask the instructor in front of me if there are any extra fees involved .(i was just wondering about uniform, i never dreamed that...)... he looked at me and said well yes there are we will set you up with a 3 year........ and then he stoped and looked around (seemed shady to me), and proceded to tell me that of i dont agree to join the club now by traditon i would never be asked again...

so what do i say to that. here he is telling me that i have to make a decision that will effect my future training in the drop of a hat, and if i dont agree that it will be impossible for me to ever advance???!!! so i think of the money i have spent already and the commitment i had made so i agree to join...

after passing a test that seemed to be judged by a board of half asleep senior members that seemed like they had been forced to come, i sit down with the instructor to see how much money i would have to spend on my new uniform..??!! then he proceeds to tell me that there is an extra fee involved that takes my training to the brown belt level, over the next 2 and a half years, ( which seemed fishy to me because in the style i studied years ago brown belt, and black only came after many years of hard training.)
then he tells me the price and i was FLOORED!! totaling over $4,000 with all my supplies and other stuff!!, i am thinking "i just started to relax because i was all paid up and now this!!" on top of that i had to buy a uniform and shoes and pads" i had only had my last uniform for one week!!!! it didnt even stink yet :D , but what could i do. they told me if i didnt join i would never get past orange in there style so i agreed, because of the commitment and all the money i had already spent, and strapped myself for the cash.
so i begin my training in the club ready for the good stuff..imagine how shocked i was when one of the instructors tells me that now i have to change the way i do certain motions..????!!! i couldent believe my ears when he told me that they teach us wrong in the begining then see if we will join the club, and if we dont we wont know any motions of the club..!!!!!!WTF!!!!!! :mad: i had been training hard every day and now i have to unlearn everything i had worked on????( so i am thinking to myself " so you teach the wrong way unless they pay you more money???"") so after that i study books and videos to confirm every motion i learned.

no more than 2 weeks went by and i come in to find that the instructor i had most liked training under had been replaced with a young incompatent junior member that could barely stand on one leg let alone remember any of the motions he was supposed to be teaching me!! he would often blunder while we were doing excercises, and you could tell he was far behing some of the intermediate students!! i was getting fed up... all my money and we still had not started training anything that even resembled the kung fu i had trained in my youth..., and the lack of sparring was getting frustrating" ( later to find out that i could spar for a huge extra fee!!! i turned it down)

soon he was replaced with another that seemed a bit more skillfull but still no more advanced than most of us in the club, so i began training harder on my own in hopes that my skill would increase, sparing with friends, and reverting back to things i could remember from the past.

club and my lessons seemed anything but exciting now but i continued because of the workout that i was getting was great and i had made several friends in the school. the instructors seemed ok but more interested in getting us into the ofice every day to try to sell us some outrageously expensive book, or shoes or new pads or something, we even had to pay like $20 for our belt certs.!! a **** piece of paper signed by some fool that never even met us let alone seen us prove that we deserved it!!..

finaly it was time for Grandmaster Simon to visit and i was looking forward to some real training, but too my dismay it was like an hour and a half of noncence and babble about something to do with terrorists and 10 min of a really cheasy knife defense.. i was done, i was over the whole thing. i had decided to deticate a huge portion of my life to martial arts and i had been conned!!! i trained there up untill about a week ago and then i just didnt show up, and then a few days ago i found this forum and it confirmed everything that i had already felt and more!! i want to go in there and yell and scream and take my money back but i know that wouldent be right... i am going to speak with them and see what i can do about getting a partial refund but i know their contract will limit what i recieve,.

KungFuGuy i was wondering if you had any tactic in getting a partial refund or did you just demand it?? any info would be good. i have been on this forum for days reading every post on TKF for the last year and i am appalled at the things i have found .. i am over it...

now i have the task of finding a new school, a reputable school were i will actualy learn kung-fu, and not some half as$ed mix of jibberish from student teachers that wouldent be able to fend off a one legged child!! it makes me sick that i wasted a year of my life on nothing.... maby a good foundation but still...

if any of you could help please e mail me with the names of good instructors or schools in seattle, i would greatly appreciate it.. i am at a loss because now i am jaded, and unsure of any school, i wish to study hung gar, tai chi... haha i guess anything is better than what i have been through...

good workout , yeah.... friendly atmosphere , yes ... good instruction, maby if your lucky .... call it what you want but its not kung fu.. , and i could go on forever on his Holyness the Dalai Seng SH|T!!! call it what you want but i call it a SCAM!!!!

thanx...

[Skarbromantis]

lots of us know how you feel , the good thing is after TKF, most ex-members, find real schools,with real training, so good luck, im sure you will find something soon.

Skard1

[Mr.Sleazy]

Well, you have just joined a huge group of dissatisfied ex-TKF students. Welcome to the gang. When there are enough of us we will start our own school with introductory 25 year contracts for $300,000!!!!

I have harped on this over and over and no-one seems to respond, but in BC the KungFuClub contract is against the law. If you are denied a significant refund by TKF (they charge $60 per hour against all the lessons you have already attended, skills and private) then I urge you to do some research into the consumer legislation in your area. I know that New York State at least has consumer legislation specific to martial arts. You may be able to recover all of your fees, either through a written complaint directly to Temple Kung Fu, a better business bureau complaint (probably free) or small claims court.

In BC, the KFClub contract is illegal because it lasts for 3 to 4 years. There may be similar provisions under Washington consumer law. Good luck!

I would strongly urge anyone who has lost significant amount of money to go after TKF like a terrier. If they have violated the law, then the contract is invalid and they owe you the ENTIRE amount. Don't give up without doing some serious research.

Good luck!

[David Jamieson]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I find it unusual that so many posts are written by " a new guy" with 2 or 3 posts on the board and the posts are all iterative of the same content virtually.

:rolleyes:

anyway, there is plenty of authentic and legitimate martial arts out there to learn and there is always the acid test to what you have learned if you really feel the need.

IE: Has it improved your health? Has it improved your understanding of the nature of your very self? Is it useful in defending yourself and have you tested this in some way?

All these things are realizations that will happen to you as you work towards gaining Kungfu. Your teacher cannot "give" you understanding and can only show you methods that when applied by you may lead to this understanding.

Finally, there is not a single martial art anywhere that was not "made up" through surmising of key factors and then built upon by those who followed.

peace

[Mr.Sleazy]

I did a search on Washington legislation, and health-club (read: martial arts) contracts are subject to the following rules:

From:
http://www.leg.wa.gov/RCW/index.cfm?fuseaction=section&section=19.142.040

RCW 19.142.040
Contents of contract.
A contract for health studio services shall include all of the following:
(4) A statement of the duration of the contract. No contract for health studio services may require payments or financing by the buyer over a period in excess of thirty-six months from the date of the contract, nor may any contract term be measured by or be for the life of the buyer;
(6) A complete statement of the rules of the health studio or an acknowledgement in a conspicuous form that the buyer has received a copy of the rules;

I was told that the KungFuClub contract was for 3 to 4 years (36 to 48 months) to brown belt level. My contract also does not state its duration, except in hours.

[Mr.Sleazy]

I think that the junior poster phenomenon is just due to the huge number of dissatisfied TKF students or ex-students out there, not some evil plot to spam your forum.

You make some good points about health, happiness and understanding. TKF can provide this. However, the sleazy business practises so far overshadow this as to make it irrelevant. How can a student be happy with their training if they are being manipulated?

Peace to you too!

[David Jamieson]

mr. sleazy

point taken.

btw, it's your forum or rather "our" forum provided free of contracts and free of charge with only the conditions set forth in the terms of use and rules of conduct. :D

peace

[KungFuGuy!]

If you've been training for a year, chances of there being a refund is slim. I received a refund of 1/4rth of what I paid, and only trained for about 6-7 months, and I missed most kung fu clubs do to a job change that caused me to not be available to train on fridays. If I had gone to every club, my refund would have been nothing.

[252aCtUa|*]

i know it is sad that my first few posts are of this nature, i am sure you hear this all the time. but i am excited to find a place were the views i have about TKF are shared , and understood by others. within TKF i would never mention any of thease things because some fresh off the block KFC newbie would report me in a second, and i would have been out with no refund at all ..

and Mr.Sleazy you are correct. the moment i realized i was being manipulated and lied too i lost all respect i had for the place, and how can you be taught by someone you have no respect for?

aCtUa|*

[slim]

Good point Sleazy,

The work-out, health, happiness, understanding and self-defense can all be provided by TKF......if you can stomach the business practices. That is the frustrating thing, it's all there....but it's tainted by merciless profit-hunting.

[anton]

Welcome to the forum, hang around theres a lot of really experienced people here. Chances are, if you find a kwoon in your area, there will be someone here who knows about it, and will be able to advise you.

Good Luck :)

[KungFuGuy!]

Let's not forget that you can find all that at any cardio-kickboxing place, in addition to some extremely fine looking women :D

[KC Elbows]

Yeah, there's a lot of threads on this forum full of good martial info, take advantage of that in addition to the info on TKF you're looking for. Chances are there's better schools in your area, though I myself have not seen TKF in use, so I cannot speak for its effectiveness or lack thereof, though, from the sounds of it, I wouldn't pay so much for training, except for from a select few martial artists, and then I'd only do it if they were upfront with their prices and I was very focussed on their style. I probably wouldn't do it then either.

Kung Lek,
Yeah, there are a lot of new people on this thread.

I'm somewhat hesitant to agree with your statements on it being ok as long as you're happy to be there(not specifically in reference to TKF specifically, but just schools in general). I am of the opinion that if someone is happy to contribute to a place that has a negative effect on others, even if they do not suffer from that negative effect(because they are happy with the training), they are still responsible for what happens with their money, and what they contribute to.

Have you had an experience where a year and more of your training time turned out to have no martial content when all you wanted to learn was martial arts? I would assume not, as you seem to be a shrewder person than I, although that is probably also due in part to your own life experience.

Did you research the first art you studied, and if not, and if the art and instruction was good, do you feel yourself lucky to have started with good instruction?

I am rather hardline on this topic, while at the same time recognizing that the fault is partially mine for having allowed myself to be conned for so long, and, in fact, falling for the con whole heartedly(ask RD, I was an idiot back in the day, very intolerant of other arts, very derogatory of other methods, and cold towards those who left the system I studied, exactly as I was taught to be). However, this does not change the fact that I walked into a school with the honest intention of being a good student of martial arts, followed my lessons to the letter, and left with willpower and the knowledge that I could no longer be convinced into being a rotten b@st@rd. Someone's sig has a quote about learning the lesson but not appreciating the teacher, I know that feeling very well. Anyway, I digress.

To the former TKF guys,

Dudes, you are all pretty **** lucky, if you ask me. Sure, you weren't learning kung fu. Sure, you never met the dalai ramalamadingdong or whatever he calls himself. You did lose money and you did lose some time, but there are far worse things to lose. TKF sounds like a pretty tame scam to me, just straight up aggressive marketing. The day I left chung moo for good, I had to write off every friend I had there after 5 years of training, because the day I left, I was considered "no mind","walking dead","missing", etc. Sure, some of them still wanted to hang out, but it was in the context of hanging out with an inferior, an attitude I will never tolerate or take part in again. The system almost requires this response, especially when a long term practitioner leaves suddenly without amazingly compelling reasons, and more so if you decide the system isn't for you or study elsewhere.

Anyway, good luck in your martial arts. I babble too much.

You guys paid small potatoes for your lesson, if that's any consolation. By the same token, the whole monk thing that Simon has put forward would make me very nervous, as these sort of psuedo-religious trends can turn very weird and very ugly over time, especially if a group becomes fanatically devoted to the leader and entrenched in the system. I don't think that will happen with TKF, as they have to cycle people into instructor positions too quickly with too high a turnover to get such a group devoted to Simon fervently enough before putting them in the position of selling their art.

Must...stop...typing...fingers....bleeding...:D

[slim]

Excellent post KC, thanks.