Grappling/myopia

[dnc101]

First off, don't jump the gun and assume I'm being critical or disrespectful here. Far from it, I respect good grapling, probably because I'm not that good at it.

There is a tendency in martial arts to get a little myopic in our training. Strikers tend to ignore the fact that some of you guys like to tie up and/or take it down to the ground. That probably isn't verry wise, though I've been guilty of that myself. But some of the grappling moves I've seen are apparently worse for this than I am.

I'm not talking about sport or regular training where you try not to dammage each other too much. But in the real world fear is a great motivator- it will cause you to do things you'd normally cringe at. And taking me down with intent would probably scare me into a hyper motivated state. By the nature of your art, you bring a lot of vulnerable targets in close, like your face/eyes. Then when you start a grab or lock you leave that target open to strikes such as heel palms and finger techniques. Also, your arms and sometimes your neck are within range of my teeth. Normally I wouldn't bite you, as I'm sure you all have rabies. But if I'm scared enough I'd probably risk it and go after arteries, tendons, or whatever is there.

I know that some of your takedowns and defenses are quick and devastating. My dad showed me one defense against a headlock several years ago that had the opponents back broke over his knee almost before he knew his head and butt were in the same plane. But a lot of your stuff from, say a top mount, looks a little risky, as I pointed out.

My question is, how do you deal with this? You must train for this possibility. What do you do if from a top mount you try to apply a cross lapel choke and suddenly all you see is his fingers comeing fast? If he's loose and can quickly redirect, I doubt that you could dodge it or move your head fast enough. And if you tuck your head to your arms he's got another hand to attack the other side. I guess you could try to pummel him into submission first. But as you draw back that leaves an opening to crane your neck and draw you in range of those fangs.

I guess what I'm asking is would these tactics work, or am I still in deep doo doo?

[chingei]

Originally posted by dnc101

By the nature of your art, you bring a lot of vulnerable targets in close, like your face/eyes. Then when you start a grab or lock you leave that target open to strikes such as heel palms and finger techniques. Also, your arms and sometimes your neck are within range of my teeth. Normally I wouldn't bite you, as I'm sure you all have rabies. But if I'm scared enough I'd probably risk it and go after arteries, tendons, or whatever is there.

My question is, how do you deal with this? You must train for this possibility. What do you do if from a top mount you try to apply a cross lapel choke and suddenly all you see is his fingers comeing fast? If he's loose and can quickly redirect, I doubt that you could dodge it or move your head fast enough. And if you tuck your head to your arms he's got another hand to attack the other side. I guess you could try to pummel him into submission first. But as you draw back that leaves an opening to crane your neck and draw you in range of those fangs.

I guess what I'm asking is would these tactics work, or am I still in deep doo doo?

Go find a club and workout with some good grapplers. that'll give you much more of an answer than you're likely to get this way.

[Merryprankster]

What Chingei said.

[dnc101]

Chingei, that is a good suggestion. But I don't know of any grappling clubs close by, and I already travel for instruction in my base. So whatever I can glean from those who kindly answer here will have to do.

[Merryprankster]

Do you know any wrestlers that would be willing to spar with you?

[dnc101]

It's possible I could find some ex-high school wrestlers to work out with. I havn't thought much about that since it is pure sport, though it would use some of your principles. I wrestled one year in high school (wasn't very good at it then, either). Guess I never really saw that as a martial art, though the skills would transfer to a fighting/grappling art. I'll check arround, see if someone wants to try it out.

It may be possible to add some of the basic martial aspects of grappling from books or videos. But I've found that there is usually something lacking without good hands on instruction, at least in the striking arts.

However, for now, what about my basic question- would teeth and nails work? Do you guys train for that sort of thing?

[Braden]

What are you planning on doing with those teeth and nails that is so devastating? :confused:

[Merryprankster]

Well, the short answer is this--in a purely training context, we don't really pay much attention to teeth and nails, where I train. Some people might.

Does this change the game? Absolutely. Does it change it enough from DOMINANT positions that it's something to worry about? Not really.

Consider the armbar from the mount. Many people say--oh, I'll just bite the leg over my face.

Ok, fine. You just earned yourself a broken arm and a vicious beatdown. Our teeth are not really designed to tear and rend raw flesh. Neither are our hands.

I got a Karate guy in class one time that was pulling the "what if?" crap while I was mounted--"what if I just strike for your face/throat," as he thrust his fingers towards my eyes.

I promptly armbarred him for his troubles.

Submission grapplers are trained to attack extended arms. In our gym we say "an extended arm is a broken arm."

This is very different than trying to intercept and trap a boxers jab, for instance, because the REAL escape--body movement, is shut down. By reducing the degrees of freedom of movement, you can isolate a limb's functionality. You are reducing the things the opponent can do.

Then too, from dominant positions, I'm not just going to go for submissions. I'm going to try and pound your face in. I might even gouge your eyes.

Simply put, anything you can do from the bottom of disadvantaged position, I can do BETTER from a position of dominance.

This doesn't mean that the things you are thinking about won't provide opportunity for escape. What it DOES mean is that you really need to learn what to do on the ground so you can take the opportunity when it comes along. These are "extras," not staples.

It is very unlikely that these types of attacks will immobilize or severely cripple your attacker in these situations.

[chingei]

What MP said

[Former castleva]

dnc101,
I agree with some of your words.
I believe it is generally effective to attack simply and quickly as you sense an attack/grab.
If it goes too far,then it´s close to game over.
I recommend learning practical defense against known basic grappling attacks-grabs,holds,hugs,chokes,locks etc.
Not to mention actual grappling.Grappling can be countered with grappling at times.

[chingei]

Originally posted by Former castleva

I recommend learning practical defense against known basic grappling attacks-grabs,holds,hugs,chokes,locks etc.
Not to mention actual grappling.Grappling can be countered with grappling at times.


wouldn't those two be the same?

[dnc101]

I've got to answer these quick as I'm on the fly.

Braden- in the example I used where he's top mounted and starting to apply a cross lapel choke the finger thrust to the eyes is to blind him and to get a reaction. Poke someoness eyes and their head flys back, raising his center of gravity and possibly unballancing him a little. It may also cause some mental confusion. I'm trying to buy just a little time and hopefully some space to work. And any disability is some advantage. If he gets the cross lapel grab and starts to shift his weight forward to choke I might bite him on the arm. I could get my teeth around most peoples lower arm/wrist, and the proximity of nerves, tendons and blood vessels to bone at that point makes a strong bite bad news. "Hopefully" when he lets go I could do something- reach up and pull his head down and maybe roll him sideways.

That little scenario brings me to MP- and thanks for some good info and suggestions. Turns out that my brother knows someone who wrestled and has a little grappling experience, but I don't know what style. We're going to play around a little with this- that word "Hopefully" does bother me some. I won't be able to learn a full grappling art. But I've been thinking lately it would be good to know a few basics.

If any of you have suggestions on what would be the most important or bennificial to learn, I'm certainly open to suggestions.

[Merryprankster]

dnc101--

I really think that the reaction you get from people is going to to depend. You MIGHT get him to move back, but since it's happened to me, I know that I just turn my head and either lean in to finish the choke or armbar the offered limb.

Biting my wrist is only going to **** me off--and if you have any remotely experienced grappler on top of you--or a much heavier person, that's probably all that's going to happen to them, as well.

There is an idea that we "flinch" from pain. That's not entirely true. We flinch from unexpected, unfamiliar, painful, stimuli.

Mentally, I know I'm going to get hit/injured in a fight, and I'm ready for it. Biting is just another kind of pain. If it doesn't work, you have escalated the "allowable" level of violence (you might have just gotten choked--now you're getting an assbeating too.) with no improvement in position.

Hence my point about acting NOW once you have done something like that.

Also, as a side note, if you're able to bite somebody's wrist while you're getting cross lapel choked, the person choking is doing it wrong :)

[Former castleva]

Dear chingei,
could you be more specific on what you mean?

Do you possibly mean if terms "grabbing"&"grappling" are the same or that grappling counter for grappling is what it used to be about?

Thanks.:)

[Braden]

dnc101 - What has been an interesting way of looking at it for me, is as follows: Do not ask what tricks you may or may not be able to do to your opponent, as surely he will be able to do the same to you; instead, ask what position you'll be in to be able to execute such tricks.

[chingei]

Originally posted by Former castleva
Dear chingei,
could you be more specific on what you mean?

Do you possibly mean if terms "grabbing"&"grappling" are the same or that grappling counter for grappling is what it used to be about?

Thanks.:)

I mean "counters" for grappling consist of becoming a better grappler.

[Mr.Sleazy]

The grappling game is ALL about dominant position.

(This, and weird names like the mount have contributed to its reputation of h*moerotica lol)

In the standup grappling and ground grappling, you are always trying to gain the dominant position. When you take the mount, for example, you have a superior position because you control the opponent's movements and can use greater leverage to apply techniques. The mount is a superior position for striking as well as submissions. The reason is that the person on top can easily control the range - they can strike, then shift so that any return strikes are ineffective. If I had someone mounted, I would never go for a submission right away, unless they just handed it to me. I would rain down punches and elbows first, then maybe go for submission if I still needed it.

When you think about biting or eye gouges, it is true that these are nasty and may stop an arm bar. But a good grappler is going to achieve a dominant position first, putting themselves in a spot where you can't apply these as easily as your opponent. If I can get you in an arm bar, I can also gouge your eyes. We don't really train these techniques as such, but we do train achieving the dominant position, which is what really matters.

Good luck!

[dnc101]

Thanks for the info. Those are some good points to think about.

We worked a little with grappling the other day. Mostly got our heads togethr real tight, held on and tried to work the others arms into a basic pretzel shape. I did a pretty good job getting mine twisted into that configuration- just before my opponent rolled me and got on top.

[MA fanatic]

It's a good question. Let me assure you that if you think you know some fancy joint locks and finger locks, the good grapplers know all those tricks. AS a matter of fact, if you grapple at a good school, you'll quickly see that these guys know more dirty moves and escapes than most traditional martial artists say they will use against grapplers. If you think that you could "eye gouge" your way out of a grappling situation with a decent grappler, you are mistaken. You never want to fight a grappler with rules permitting eye gouges. I realize many classical martial artists think that eye gouging and groin strikes are the answer or "grapplers worst nightmare." Trust me, it is not. Most likely, it is these masters who will wind up blind or castrated. I'm not a good grappler, but do have a few years experience. I would not be afraid to grapple someone who is threatening to eye gouge me. Let him escalate to that point, and I swear he will not only be blind, I'll break every small digit on his hand, rip his ears off, shatter the bones over his eye brows, rip open his eye lids. fish hook his cheeks open, rip off his testicals after breaking his toes, and finally lock him up with a spine lock he will not get out off. If I'm nice, I may consider not crushing his adams apple. Grapplers know pressure points. Perhaps even more than the striking artists who claim to know some tricks. As for the fear factor, many can struggle out of fear to get out of submission holds, but it would not stop a good grappler. Most likely the ammature would simply tighten up the lock, or force another throw, or make himself vulnerable to another finishing hold. Don't take my word for it. If you dont believe me, just swing by the Lions Den or any other submission fighting academy, and ask to grapple with eye gouging permitted. Just remember to keep your cell phone handy to call 911.
MA fanatic

[dnc101]

Thanks, fanatic.
I got a book, among other grappling references, on Kuai Jiao. There on page 175 is an escape sequence using all the above mentioned moves. The opponent (O) is top mounted, knees firmly planted in the defenders (D) arm pits,applying a two hand choke. D does not have guard position. D first thrusts his hips upward, presumably upsetting O's ballance. D grasps O's right hand with his left in position for a classic wrist lock- while simultaneously heel palming O's chin and finger gouging his eyes. D then pushes O to D's left as he applies the wrist lock, which of course makes O want to go that way any how. Then D rolls on top and the roles are reversed, except that if O is quick he is in position to establish guard as D comes up between O's legs.

So there you have it. He did everything I talked about except bite the guy. So, from this and all your posts, I must conclude:
1. You do train for this kind of stuff.
2. Don't use these techniques unless it is that kind of a fight to begin with- certainly don't escalate it to that kind of fight against a good grappler.
3. Extended arms are used, but with caution. Probably transitory in nature, and when you have sufficiently dealt with his arms (and possibly legs) so that he cannot apply a lock or break.
4. Best chance is, as I suspected, to hurt him bad before it can go to the ground.
5. If it does go that way, I'm in deep dung.

The question is, what to do about it. I have neither the time nor the inclination to take on a full grappling course. But I do need to include some grappling in my carriculum. What areas would you, as grapplers, suggest I concentrate my limmited resources on? Should I concentrate more on defenses against takedowns or escapes? If I come out on top I'd probably be inclined to escape/ disengage and attack him from a standing position- or is that a bad idea as well?

Also, for the purposes of suggesting a limmited carriculum, it is not the martial artists I'd be concerned about having to defend against. Most of us are pretty good folks, and we respect both our art and other martial artists, despite what you often see on these boards. So odds are this is not who I'd be fighting if it came to that. And even if it did, I doubt that adding a few grass stains to my gi will stand me in good stead against you who train regularly in the grappling arts. Therefore, I probably should work on techniques that could be used against the average angry, drunk, stoned, deranged, or just stupid jerk that wants to fight and won't take no for an answer.

Suggestions or pointers?

[Merryprankster]

Learn to defend takedowns.
Learn how to get up safely.
Learn how to sweep.
Learn submission defenses.


For the record, even if my balance is upset, spinning armbar from the mount is easy if somebody extends their arms to reach your head in any way.

Some might disagree with me, but lose the idea of ever going for a submission or heavily offensive technique from an inferior place. You're risking a beating. Wrist lock from the bottom? Please.

[dnc101]

And by the way, I like your Bertrand Russel quote.

[DragonzRage]

What you must understand is that if a grappler has taken you down and mounted you, he is in a much more controlling position than you are. So whatever dirty thing you try on him he can do to you back much more effectively. Being an effective grappler is not about being good at catching submissions. Its about maintaining complete control over your opponent. I have control over you. So if you reach your hand up towards my eyes, I'm not gonna get scared away and jump off of you. I'm just gonna take that arm and break it, because when you reach out like that you're basically giving me your arm. Or I might just pass the arm out of the way and smother you as I press my forearm into your throat with all my weight behind it. However you move, I will flow with it and put myself in a better position. I don't even have to go for a submission. I might just rain punches down on you and bounce your head off the ground repeatedly. If you squirm I might take your back and drop elbows down on the base of your neck and back of your head. Its hard to even punch back at me from the bottom position, let alone gouge my eyes or grab my nutz. And if i think you're trying that, then it might just get MY adrenaline up higher and really pi$$ me off.

[MA fanatic]

If you guys want to learn grappling quick and don't have time to take a full course or enrolle in a school, check out any instructional videos by Erik Paulson (www.Erikpaulson.com) and/or Marco Lala videos (they are 19.95 each with full money back garantee) www.fightingsecrets.com. These tapes are louded. Erik Paulson shows things which many grappling instructors hesitate to demonstrate. Everyone one of Paulson's tapes covers enough information to last you a year. He holds nothing back. Marco Lala, like Paulson, teaches from the heart. His tapes are also among the best. Both men are available for questions and are two of the most caring martial arts instructors out there. Check their videos out, you wont be disappointed. (Check out their web sites to see which tapes fit your needs. You may want to order one tape from each and see which instructional styles is best suited to your needs. All tapes are loaded with information...not types of tapes which only have a few moves. These guys pack in close to a hundred techniques per tape...awsome submission, transitions, positions and escape tapes also).
MA fanatic

[chingei]

Originally posted by dnc101

The question is, what to do about it. I have neither the time nor the inclination to take on a full grappling course. But I do need to include some grappling in my carriculum. What areas would you, as grapplers, suggest I concentrate my limmited resources on? Should I concentrate more on defenses against takedowns or escapes? If I come out on top I'd probably be inclined to escape/ disengage and attack him from a standing position- or is that a bad idea as well?



No offense, but what you're saying is "I have no intention of actually learning how to drive, but I expect to find myself on the highway some day, so do you recommend I learn what the accelorator is for, or the clutch?"

[Merryprankster]

DNC--Listen to Chingei.

Every single thing I said to work on is not something you can do without doing all the rest of it--but it IS a way to focus your training. You don't need to know a billion choke, triangle, armbar combinations because that's not going to be your game.

Think of it this way--you don't need to know how to drive a big rig...but you do need to know how to drive :)

[chingei]

Originally posted by Merryprankster


Think of it this way--you don't need to know how to drive a big rig...but you do need to know how to drive :)

****! that's what I shoulda said!

[dnc101]

You guys are all making way too much sense- I may have to reevaluate my thinking about grapplers as well as grappling!

chingei, no offense taken. I asked for your oppinions and advice, and I'd be pretty thin skined to take offense at such a reasonable response. And it was a good analogy.

Merryprankster, I think I see what you are saying about your list being a focus. You need a good base to build on, with later emphasis on the areas you listed, correcrt?

Dragonzrage, controling/dominant position has been a fairly common theme in the replies to this post. I'm starting to get the point. Actually, it isn't that difficult to grasp- just the thought of someone that looks like apowen (is that really his picture?) sitting on my chest...!

MA Fanatic, those sites are on my favorites list. Thanks. I've got enough to get me going now, but those look like good candidates for future purchases.

Now I need to sit down and realistically evaluate whether or not I can fit this in. To do it, I'll have to give up some of my training time with current partners, and I'll have to find some new training partners. No one I work out with now really wants to get too much in to grappling. They'll play arround a little, but they don't want to commit to the time and effort of really learning it. For that matter, I'll never be a highly profficient grappler. But I'd like to be able to take care of myself on the ground, which usually means an investment in practice there before the event. I've asked around a little to see if any one is interested, but nothing solid yet. Oh well, none of you said it would be easy... .

Thanks for the help, and I'll let you know how it goes.

[chingei]

Originally posted by dnc101
I'd like to be able to take care of myself on the ground, which usually means an investment in practice there before the event. I've asked around a little to see if any one is interested, but nothing solid yet. Oh well, none of you said it would be easy... .

Thanks for the help, and I'll let you know how it goes.

that man's gonna be all right!

[Merryprankster]

DNC, what I was really getting at was more that if you want to learn the things I was talking about, you're going to have to do the WHOLE grappling game--it's unavoidable However, as I said, it's not going to be necessary to learn a gazillion locks and chokes.

Instead of focusing on submissions from the guard, for instance, you might focus on sweeping/standing up. Of course, the more you do this stuff, the more you'll have to combo things together, so you might just wind up getting good at all of it :)

[dnc101]

Have any of you seen anything by Mr. David German?
If so, what do you think about his methods?
I think he does Jiu jutsu, Chi-Na, and Nie Wazi(?). He also does Kenpo, so his grappling techniques should fit right in with my base. I saw a couple of his tapes, and it all looked good to me, but I wouldn't be the best judge of that. So I thought I'd get your opinions.
Since he does Kenpo, I might be able to get my brother a little more interested.
A potential problem I see is in trying to learn without an instructor. A lot of the things I saw him do looked to be pretty dangerous, especially when locking or cranking the neck. He said as much as well. He also talked about not getting ahead of your opponent in a fight, as the results of cranking someones neck faster than their body can keep up are predictably disastrous. What are your thoughts on this?
(I just reread that, and it sounds like I'm asking abut the dangers of cranking someones neck. What I'm really asking about is the overall safety factor in training some of this without an instructor. He also pointed out that in order to learn this, you have to work to your partners threshold of pain. If you don't make it hurt, you'll never know if you're doing it right. So we would probably find ourselves pretty close to that line between safe practice and injury.)

[Merryprankster]

dnc,

Let me put it this way--I can pick up grappling moves from a tape. I also have over 7 years of grappling experience.

Could I learn Eskrima from a tape? I think the answer is pretty obvious.

Whatever it is you want to learn, go to the experts. What I mean is this--if you want to learn to fight from the guard, go to BJJ, and learn all about it. If you want to learn how to execute leg attacks and defend against them, go to non-greco styles and learn all about it. Certain styles are known for certain things--they specialize in them. Greco-roman wrestlers are DEADLY from the clinch. Freestyle/folkstyle wrestlers are known for highly developed leg attacks. Judoka have truly brilliant footsweeps, along with throws, Sambists are known for leg locks, BJJ is known for its guard work, etc.

Would you take TKD to learn how to use your hands? :)

I would be leary of Kenpo groundfighting "because it fits with your style"--that doesn't mean it's crap, just that the reason is not precisely a great one. Groundfighting is groundfighting, and it is SO unlike standing that no style of groundfighting you learn is going to interfere with your standing fighting. My boxing never does wierd stuff to my BJJ. That's what's so great about groundfighting--any style you learn will mesh neatly with any standup you know because they don't have different ideas about how to do things.

Here's my advice. Go to the Roy, Bolo (mike?), and Joe forum on www.mma.tv and ask Bolo (Michael Jen), or Roy Harris about this. Roy has a lot of experience in other arts than BJJ and can give you a very mature and detailed response to this.

[dnc101]

I havn't been to the site yet, Merry. I'll get there when I have more time.

I just got back from working out with my brother, and we went out and rolled around in the horse barn. You probably would get a laugh if you saw us, but it's a start. By the way, he "won". We also worked a few changeups on some of our techniques, including takedowns.

He says one reason I don't do well is I'm too impatient. I give up what I have to try something else. Probably true- that is why I like the hard striking arts. Lots of action. But I'm thinking this grappling is going to get me in shape!

[Merryprankster]

I made a mistake. It's THIS

Q&A: Moreira, Roy, Jen

Hey--we all have to start somewhere. I looked like a fish the first time I wrestled.

[MA fanatic]

I agree with Merry. I have seen those tapes markeded. Perhaps the guy knows his submissions, but I'm not sure he has any solid rolling experience. Like Merry said, go to the experts. IF you're into ordering video material, go to www.ErikPaulson.com and/or
www.fightingsecrets.com. Otherwise, try to find someone in your area who is a grappler and train with him. If you need to locate someone to train with, you can locate a partner through www.mixedmartialarts.com. Don't worry about which style which match you. Once on the ground, it's a complete different ball game. Kenpo, Kung Fu, Karate, all that goes out the window. Once on the ground you're working positions, escapes and submissions. Some ground grappling techniques get so complex the game begins to resemble a chess match. The beauty of grappling is that it can be mixed into any art. Me for example: I started in Kung Fu (4years of 6 day a week training until school relocated). I looked around for a good school and found a Korean man who was 6th dan in TKD, 5th dan in Hapkido, 2nd dan in Judo (his father was the coach for Korean national Judo team), and the Soul Korean boxing champion. He also won Korean national full contact tkd competition 5 times in a row. I trained with him for 7 years. Though he included judo throws, his knowledge of ground work was limmited. When he moved out of state, I joined a Muay Thai gym where a lot of NHB competitors trained in shooto, pancrace, and Machado bjj. Now I train at the gracie academy to focus on my ground work. Point is, at no time did grappling interfere with any stand up training. It's a different demention all together.
MA fanatic