Gypsy, Wanderers, Beggers, Vagabond

[Ao Qin]

Hi,

Just out of interest, I have been trying to find out a little about these styles, due to their connection to Bak Mei Pai.

In HB UN's book, he mentions Cheung Lai Cheun learned the Cross Set (Kata), Sun, Moon, Monkey, Knife and other Sets from Sifu (Smallpox) Lam (12), a teacher of Gipsy Style.

The only other reference to this style, I found in a rare book called "Shaolin Tiger Boxing", by Hui Yat Chiu (Yih Mei Book Co., 1982). In the introduction, they go into a fair bit of the history of this style, which is variously called Vagabond, Gypsy, Wanderers, or Beggers. The book also says this style includes within its curriculum; Shaolin Tiger Boxing (which looks purely Hung Gar to me), Luo Han Boxing (Arhats' Boxing), Mo Tang Chiang, etc.

I also paged through Kungfu Wushu-Qigong's Millennium Edition (January 2000), but could not find any references to it.

Would anyone know anything about this style, and it's relation to Bak Mei? Would "Cross Set" be Sup Ji? What would "Sun, Moon, and Monkey" be (Monkey = groundfighting set?) - or were they incorporated?

For that matter, does anyone know anything about Lee Gar either? Was it predominantly the weapon forms from Lee Gar that were incorporated? HB Un mentions 72 Earth Ghost as well (which looks pretty close to Sup Ji, if you ask me).

Anyway, hope these questions have some interest for people here!

[FIRE HAWK]

http://www.geocities.com/kungfu_galaxy/Southern/FongYang.html

[FIRE HAWK]

Also try Leung Tings Icredible Skills of the Vagabonds his two books there is lots of information in these books.

[Ao Qin]

Hi Firehawk - interesting site! Some of those forms sound vaguely familiar!

[buddhapalm]

Hi Ao Qin,
If I remember correctly, earlier, members of Bak Mei Pai on this board said that they practice Mang Fu Ha Sahn in their curriculum.

I practice this form too from my line. I have a mixture of Northern and Southern Forms in my forms training.

I was told that this form is featured in Black Tiger Style, I see it listed in Beggar and Fong Yang/Gypsy Style and see it in a Fut Gar version of Leung Tien Chu's line (1920's).

I know nothing of Cheung Lai Cheun, but since you mention he may have learned some Beggar Style, perhaps Mang Fu Ha Sahn is the proof of the Beggar Style connection.

Please correct me if I am wrong, just an observation.

Cheers

Buddhapalm

[kei lun]

Ao Qin:
I have only seen the 2 books mentioned on this style (Shaolin Tiger Boxing, and Incredible Skills of the Vagabonds). Kung Fu Magazine had an article on it by Salvatore Canzonieri in the Dec/Jan 97 issue too. I studied this style briefly from a Sifu in Hong Kong, who called it Haak Foo Keun. I just learned one form called Gam Gong Kuen, which looked so much like Hung Ga. I can get his address if you want to contact him as he is still teaching. The style has a lot of different dummy forms as the �gwanders�h supposedly lived in the forest and trained on the trees which they used as dummy�fs, I saw 2 of the sets which were very interesting.

Beggar�fs style was known for its Drunken Boxing made famous by Sou Hut Yee, one of the ten tigers of Canton. In Bak Mei there are 2 forms that were from the style. Sup Ji Kau Da (cross pattern grabbing and striking) and Jeui Hut Yee Kuen (drunken beggars fist). CLC didn�ft teach Sup Ji Kau Da while in Canton but did teach Jeui Hut Yee, which he later left out probably because of its difficulty. My line calls it Jeui Kuen but other lines have the same form but use a different name, I forget what.

I don�ft know much of the Lee Ga style unfortunately, but I do know its different from the Lee Ga of the five southern family styles. I have an email address of a Sifu in KuangJau city who knows it if your interested.

Buddhapalm:
The form Man Foo Ha San didnt come from beggars style. It was an extension of the Man Foo Cheut Lum form that was compiled by several of CLC's students.


Kei Lun

[Ao Qin]

Hi Kei Lun, thanks for the info. However, I'm only interested in a theoretical discussion on this connection...

Sounds very intersting about the dummys - I've been enjoying my own work on them - what a difference it makes! I used to whack trees, but they hit back too hard!

You are a true wealth of knowledge on the arts!

Cheers - Ao Qin

[kei lun]

A theoretical disscussion? Hmmm, I dont know too much theoretical history. Sorry to jump in with my facts. Good luck eh.

Kei Lun

[Stacey]

Gypsy is like saying "n1gger" its derogitory. We are called "Rom" or Romany, this has been common knowlege for at least 100 years and you would have lost wwII without our help behind enemy lines in germany.

If someone told you that their are ancient knife fighting secrets, they are trying to get a dollar from a stupid gaje. Theres one born every minute. I don't doubt that there are some superb Rom knife fighters. We are being selectively exterminated in at least 10 countries, but this is ghetto/prison style, one our of neccesity.

[Yum Cha]

The pattern, Jeui Hut Yee Kuen (drunken beggars fist), or Jeui Keun, sounds really interesting. A wee treasure from the vaults in Guangzhou.

My Sifu's grandfather was an accomplished CLF player, and Sifu has shown me some "parlour tricks" from his ancient memory of CLF drunken. Just a bit of fun and games, nothing serious. The thing is it always seemed like it would be possible to get the essence of Pak Mei into it. The story I heard was that many styles had a "drunken" form, or style. Somehow I suspect the word "Drunken" doesn't say it all, as one would expect.

So, you can see, to hear that there is a "drunken" inspired pattern is very interesting, can you tell us anything about it? Holding the Cup? Carry the tray? Does that mean anything to you (or CLF for that matter?)

[Ao Qin]

Kei Lun - your keen "sardonic wit" is misplaced. I appreciate your taking the time to share what you know of the arts - I simply meant I haven't the time (or motivation) to follow up on your kind offer of references on this topic.

Stacey - I apologize if I gave offense by using this term - I had no idea it was derogatory - maybe you could educate us all better by explaining the root of this word - where did it come from?

Toodles - Ao Qin

[guohuen]

The Romany people are cool! Did you know they have been traced to the north of India by DNA testing?

[Shaolin Master]

The wanders' styles are usually composites of many not defined to any one particular stylistic attribute. rather they contain many elements of different styles especially those more prominent. The methods are simple direct and efficient, using whatever means to survive dealing with one to many.

When I was young I studied Hung style with my teacher Wong who then also taught me what I later discovered to be Bak Mei, Mok Ga etc..... and in fact although it was known to us as Hung, I have found our SupJi to contain 2 more sections to that of the Bak Mei, forms such as Dragon & Tiger, Snake & Crane, 10 animals etcc....were unfound in the popular wongfeihong Hung Ga.......etc.......

Recently, through research (and soon to be more) it has been found to be the styles of the Hong Men societys' (triads /revoloutionaries) and thus the resulting mix of different skill sets.

Rgds

[tnwingtsun]

I always thought that the "Sam-Mun" set came from the "Beggers style"


have been wrong before,will check.

[Dale Dugas]

Through looking at Jung Shee Cheung Lai Chuen and his rather indepth background he had BEFORE training in Bak Mei Pai, it would be rather foolish to assume he would not take the best of what he had been taught up to that point and teach others. There are forms from Gypsy/Wanderers style, Lung Ying which he must have added to the forms from Bak Mei Pai.

I have heard that there were only 5 Bak Mei forms originally, and that the other forms were taken from the other styles he had indepth experience with.

Anyone want to run with this?

In Boston,

Dale

[fiercest tiger]

Thanks for the breakdown, why didnt CLC teach sup jee in guangzhou?

surely the sup jee was easier then drunken form! any help would be cool, also is the sup jee today different from what was taught then? I know there is different versions but just interested, as in a long or short form or did it resemble sek sze but shorter.

cheers
Garry:)

[Stacey]

gypsy- from egyptian. They were thought to be from Egypt.

[kei lun]

Ao Qin:
Sorry, I misunderstood, but I didn�ft mean to dump too much info there. What does �gsardonic�h mean? The biggest word I know is �gcardboardbox�h! Just kidding.

Yum Cha:
All �gdrunken styles�h were derived from the �g8 Drunken Immortals�h, a series of 8 forms. Other styles that have incorporated it are: Northern 7 star mantis, Choy Lee Fut, Bak Mei, Wanders Style, Hung Fut, Ying Jaau Faan Ji Moon (eagle claw), Wushu, etc.

Drunken is well suited to the circular motions of Choy Lee Fut. They complement eachother well as drunken by itself is not too powerful.

Drunken is also well suited to Bak Mei, but the flavor is completely different. In Bak Mei there are a great deal of wrist strikes as well as ground movement found in the form. Its interesting too that the �gphoenix eye�h is now moved to the second knuckle (of the middle finger), in order to form the cup hand. Its tough to train this one.
In the Daai Sek See form (daai sup ji) there is one drunken movement called �gsin yan ging jau�h, which is a wrist strike from a side cat stance.

Dale Dugas:
Bak Mei is not a mix of styles. Bak Mei is not like the 3 other styles that are found within. Dragon style is quite similar, but in the KuangZhou schools Bak Mei and Lung Ying are distinctly different physically. As well the Ying Jau Leem Kiu found in both styles (but from Lung Ying) do not resemble eachother. Wanders style is close in appearance to Hung Ga, which of course is nothing like Bak Mei. And Lee Ga does have slightly similar power, but the appearance is also quite different. Bak Mei is a method of power and a set of principles set to maximize this power. If you put these principles into any style it will transform into Bak Mei, like the adopted styles did.
There were originally only 4 forms in Bak Mei: Gau Bo Toei, Sup Baat Moh Kiu Gung, Man Foo Cheut Lum, and Wiu Wan Seung Kwai (double crutch form). Some also say that Ng Hang Moh was an original from Juk Fat Wun, but since it was an unfinished form that may not have been likely.
The other forms were borrowed and newly created. These were brought in to ease the transition through the levels, as the existing forms were simply too advanced for anyone to begin with.

Fiercest Tiger:
Im not sure what you mean but Ill try. In KuangZhou CLC taught Siu Sek See Kuen and Daai Sek See Kuen; it was originally one form but broken in half and the second half (daai sek see) was doubled/repeated. Some call these Siu Sup Ji and Daai Sup Ji as they are crosspatterns. In HK, CLC eliminated Siu Sek See in favor of Jik Bo Biu Jee, and Daai Sek See became Sek See Kuen (almost no modification).
I have heard of Sek See Sup Ji, which may just be the Sek See form. I saw Man Kwong Fong�fs Sup Ji Kuen and it didn�ft resemble either form, but did have many movements from Daai Sup Ji Kuen


Kei Lun

[fiercest tiger]

Thanks thats what i meant, sup jee forms small and large, large sup jee is now called sek sze i believe.

What does macau pak mei look like in regards to all the others is it similar to futsan pak mei?

thanks
Garry:)

[Yum Cha]

Originally posted by kei lun
Yum Cha:
All ?gdrunken styles?h were derived from the ?g8 Drunken Immortals?h, a series of 8 forms. Other styles that have incorporated it are: Northern 7 star mantis, Choy Lee Fut, Bak Mei, Wanders Style, Hung Fut, Ying Jaau Faan Ji Moon (eagle claw), Wushu, etc.

Drunken is well suited to the circular motions of Choy Lee Fut. They complement eachother well as drunken by itself is not too powerful.

Drunken is also well suited to Bak Mei, but the flavor is completely different. In Bak Mei there are a great deal of wrist strikes as well as ground movement found in the form. Its interesting too that the ?gphoenix eye?h is now moved to the second knuckle (of the middle finger), in order to form the cup hand. Its tough to train this one.

>>>>>> Sounds cool!

In the Daai Sek See form (daai sup ji) there is one drunken movement called ?gsin yan ging jau?h, which is a wrist strike from a side cat stance.

>>>>> Is that the little "Deng Choi" style flick? Sometimes done as a side hand that flips around into a phoenix attack?

Dale Dugas:
Bak Mei is not a mix of styles. Bak Mei is not like the 3 other styles that are found within. Dragon style is quite similar, but in the KuangZhou schools Bak Mei and Lung Ying are distinctly different physically. As well the Ying Jau Leem Kiu found in both styles (but from Lung Ying) do not resemble eachother. Wanders style is close in appearance to Hung Ga, which of course is nothing like Bak Mei. And Lee Ga does have slightly similar power, but the appearance is also quite different. Bak Mei is a method of power and a set of principles set to maximize this power. If you put these principles into any style it will transform into Bak Mei, like the adopted styles did.
There were originally only 4 forms in Bak Mei: Gau Bo Toei, Sup Baat Moh Kiu Gung, Man Foo Cheut Lum, and Wiu Wan Seung Kwai (double crutch form). Some also say that Ng Hang Moh was an original from Juk Fat Wun, but since it was an unfinished form that may not have been likely.
The other forms were borrowed and newly created. These were brought in to ease the transition through the levels, as the existing forms were simply too advanced for anyone to begin with.

>>>>>> Well said.


Kei Lun

[EAZ]

Originally posted by kei lun
Fiercest Tiger:
Im not sure what you mean but Ill try. In KuangZhou CLC taught Siu Sek See Kuen and Daai Sek See Kuen; it was originally one form but broken in half and the second half (daai sek see) was doubled/repeated. Some call these Siu Sup Ji and Daai Sup Ji as they are crosspatterns. In HK, CLC eliminated Siu Sek See in favor of Jik Bo Biu Jee, and Daai Sek See became Sek See Kuen (almost no modification).
I have heard of Sek See Sup Ji, which may just be the Sek See form. I saw Man Kwong Fong�fs Sup Ji Kuen and it didn�ft resemble either form, but did have many movements from Daai Sup Ji Kuen

Kei Lun, thank you for this bit of information. It may explain some of the differences between Tsang Wai Bok's lineage in Vietnam and other lineages.

(Have you heard of 3 small gates/questions AND three large gates/questions? I suspect that the 3 large gates practiced in Vietnam is either the other half of modern Sek See or of 3 small gates. In any case for all that may be interested, the PM school in Holland's opening movement of "3 gates" is identical to our "3 large gates" and I have visited 10 PM schools and seen noone else do this. From salute the person makes a kind of spiral/circle with arms and strikes with sides of hands in downwards motion once to the West and once to the East, as right foot crosses left going towards West,and then right foot shoots out into a kind of sideways cat stance, then same to East. )

You seem to have many of the keys I lack in explaining, among other things the difference between how CLC taught in KuangZhou, in Canton and Hong Kong respectively.

I have one question though. If I understand you correctly, You seem to say that Jik Bo Biu Jee was added in his later years in Hong Kong. You say "it was favoured" over older begger form.

I can say with a certain degree of confidence that in our lineage of Tsang Wai Bok, Jik Bo is in fact called "Ly Kow pui Toui Kinh" or preperatory power generation exercice for 9 step push" (sorry I must translate from sino vietnamese to French to English). It is one of 3 preperatory exercices corresponding to power generation of advanced (original) forms.

When I discovered other PM schools, I found that they instead called it Jik Po, the first form learnt, but did not make (the obvious to me) connection with 9 step push, but said it was simply a stand alone basic form.

If you could, could you confirm that:
1. Jik Bo did exist before CLC moved permanently to HK.
2. That it indeed has NOTHING to do with Sek See form (although maybe some like to teach it as beginner form and some like us teach it latter on)

Also:
1. Does your lineage have other "Jik Bo" type preperatory exercices?

Please flame me if I am wrong, FT and others, but my weak understanding of YKM is that they also incorporate this notion of preperatory exercice in Jik Po and call it something more complicated than simply Jik Po and they have other preperatory exercices as well.

Anyways thank you for the insight.

Kei Lun, may I be so forward as to ask what your lineage is?

EAZ

[Buby]

In YKM we have Ly Jik Bo. It's practiced as a form and a certain section of the form is used as a drill to develop proper body mechanics/TTFC.

Take care,
Buby

[fiercest tiger]

ykm ly jik bo that my sifu taught me was a an exercise for FCTT, and it was taught usually at the park and it must be done right in order to learn 9 step. In my jik bo book ill have out i am putting most of the questions and answers you may have etc.

Every jik bo i have seen has differences and trainingm methods, maybe the basic jik bo was just the exercise then other sifus could have added therte own parts for the turn around and power generation etc.

[Lau]

Hi EAZ,

Let me complicate matters more... I was told that our sam moon kuen came from Lee Gar (like Sap Ji which we call sip sou ken). And since my Sigung Lee Sai Keung was a Sifu of Lee Gar before training Pak Mei from Cheung Lai Chuen I believe this. But the opening segment of our Sam moon is the same as the Dragoin Style / Lung Ying salute. So I am a bit lost here

Regards from Amsterdam, Lau

[Yum Cha]

Hi guys, FT and I had a little chat on this one already <grin>. My understanding (right or wrong???) was that Jik Bu was created as a training pattern, a prepatory exercise, for Gau Bo Twi. It trains the fundamental elements of stance, TTFC, faat ging.

Once you come to terms with it, there are many variations that can be added, and to be honest, I have never seen it done the same way by two separate schools, HOWEVER, as usual, the fundamentals do remain consistant if the details do not. er, for the most part....

For myself, Jik Bu has become a type of Chi Gung exercise, as I find there is a "zone" within the execution where it has this effect. Long runs up and down the park are the way we train it too.

While the children are taught to do it on one side, the elders are allowed to do it both sides in our club. I neglected this pattern in my younger years, and I wish to encourage you younger players not to do so.

[kei lun]

Fiercest Tiger:
I haven�ft heard of Macau Bak Mei but it is likely as there�fs a heap of kung fu there. I was only there once and it rained the whole time.

Yum Cha:
We don�ft have a Deng Choei in Daai Sek See but got it in Siu Sek See. We usually call it Ying Choei. It�fs different from Sin Yan Ging Jaau.

EAZ:
The 3 Gates? Hmmm, we have Sam Mun Kuen (3 gates fist), Sam Mun Bat Gwa (3 gates 8 trigrams), and Sei Mun Bat Gwa (4 gates 8 trigrams). I haven�ft learned or seen Sam Mun Kuen so I cant comment. I think that Sam Mun was later replaced with Sup Ji Kau Da, another form brought in later!
Lau commented that the opening is like the Lung Ying opening. That�fs right but, the Sam Mun Bat Gwa opening is bow to the left then right then double punch down to the left side with feet together. The Lung Ying opening is bow to the right then left then double punch down to the center in square stance. There is the same opening in many of the weapon forms too. Actually I never put it together before but they are similar, thanx Lau!
I�fm sorry to say that I don�ft know the Jik Bo form, as I have said we use Siu Sek See instead (not a beggar�fs form). Yes, Jik Bo did exist before CLC left China! It has no relation to Siu Sek See (that I know of) except that Jik Bo later replaced Siu Sek See for reasons I don�ft know.

Kei Lun

[kei lun]

EAZ you wanted to know my lineage? Not a problem.

I�fm 8th generation.
I learned from Lau Fai and Lau Keung (brothers).
They learned from most of the teachers in KuangZhou, but mainly their father Lau Cheun, who was the former Grandmaster in KuangZhou. The current Grandmaster is Siu Ting Fun who also taught my Sifus�f.
It was said that there were 6 top disciples of CLC in China, Lau Cheun learned from 5 of them, the other was Ha Hon Hom. Of the 5, Lau Cheun�fs main teacher was Yau Yan Wah.

CLC taught in KuangZhou for like 40 years (in HK for 12). Most of the students he produced during his years there kind of kept together and kept feeding the evolving system to eachother. It was uncommon there for someone to only learn from only one teacher, although there were exceptions. Still today all the Bak Mei people get together, it�fs a very close family.





Kei Lun

[Yum Cha]

Originally posted by kei lun
Yum Cha:
We don?ft have a Deng Choei in Daai Sek See but got it in Siu Sek See. We usually call it Ying Choei. It?fs different from Sin Yan Ging Jaau.
Kei Lun

Hi Kei, you pre-empted me. We do not have that move in Sek See either, but we do in Ng Yang. I am trying to figure out if that Fung An Choi, wrist flipping attack is what you call Sin Yan Ging Jaau.

In Ng Yang, you do the double backfist forward, bending the knees, then to the left strike out with a side of hand as you drop into cat stance, then the outstretched hand, roataing mostly at the wrist, but at the elbow a bit, flips around in a circle, striking the same spot with a whipping fung an choi (like deng choi), stepping into forward stance, then Sak Choi with the opposite hand.

I ask this, because I am not totally sure of the origins of Ng Yang, but it is the only pattern besides the big 4 with the same magic.

[fiercest tiger]

Wasnt the sam marn kuen the older version of sarm mun baqua kuen? Also i think sarm maan kuen is hakka name for saam mun?!

Does your saam mun bagua have lots of stomping? Also do you slide alot or just step with the elbows etc?

Are you saying that ha hon hung was one of the 6 disciples or you saying he learnt from them? I was to believe that he was one of those disciples!?

thanks
Garry:)

[EAZ]

regarding Jik Bo:
It is preperatory exercice for 9 steps as many seem to agree on this thread. For information, we have preparatory exercice for 18 frictions and for Tiger exits forest.

Regarding geneology:
Thank you for posting it kei lun it helps a lot to understand. It may be of interest tha tTsang Wai Bok, when he came to Vietnam in 1932 said he was 13th student and I have been given a list of of part of the earlier students, among which are HHH and if memory serves Yau Yan Wah. Was the latter the sifu who went to Malaysia? (With your help we can propably reconstitute the entire tree of CLC's students !



Originally posted by kei lun
Fiercest Tiger:
EAZ:
The 3 Gates? Hmmm, we have Sam Mun Kuen (3 gates fist), Sam Mun Bat Gwa (3 gates 8 trigrams), and Sei Mun Bat Gwa (4 gates 8 trigrams). I haven�ft learned or seen Sam Mun Kuen so I cant comment. I think that Sam Mun was later replaced with Sup Ji Kau Da, another form brought in later!

I have always been beeply puzzled by the fac tthat our 3 small gates/questions (never mind the 3 large gates) was quite different from all the HK student lineages I have seen. They all do the form the same way, bar LAU's group who have the opening salute of our 3 large gates. This apparent HK version of 3 gates, after salute, goes NW, then NE then North, and remains (like most HK PM forms I have seen) very linear after that.

In our version, we go 8 directions, both in what we call 3 small gates and 3 big gates (I shall reverify the translation and titles of these forms, maybe I have not understood correctly).
It must be fair to assume that there is some link with yor 3 forms described above. Can you describe 4 gates 8 trigrams in any way?

In any case is it safe to say that all three forms you mention are of Li origin?

All the best,

EAZ

[fiercest tiger]

We also have sei mun baqua, left, right ,front and back gates.

[Sui]

hey f.t cool:)

[fiercest tiger]

As they say in Gerry Maguire "YOU COMPLETE ME"!

:D

FT

[kei lun]

Fiercest Tiger:
HHH was indeed one of the 6 disciples of CLC in China, just he was the only one of the 6 that Lau Cheun didn�ft learn from. However Lau did learn from one of HHH�fs top disciples Kwan Kwok Fai.
In the HK branch there were said to have been 12 or 13 top disciples.
I don�ft really know where Saam Mun Kuen came from but Im not sure if it is related to Sam Mun BaGwa, could be. Yes, our Sam Mun Batgwa does have a bit of stomping and many elbow movements, most upward. You�fve seen it?

Actually, Sei Mun Bat Gwa is a mix of Siu Sek See, Dai Sek See, and Sam Mun Batgwa. Its really apparent if you see all three of the forms first; of course there is a lot more than just that, and I think it may be the longest form in the system. Perhaps that�fs the reason that Siu Sek See and Sam Mun were removed from the curriculum; either to make room for the new forms (Jik Bo Biu Jee and Sup Ji Kau Da), or simply because their essence is contained in Sei Mun Bat Gwa!

EAZ:
I don�ft know if any of the forms are Lee Style origin, of Wanderers or Dragon for that matter. Perhaps the names alone remained, perhaps some partial sequences, but I think whatever those �gborrowed�h forms once were is now gone and replaced with Bak Mei! Just a thought.



Kei Lun

[fiercest tiger]

Thanks for clearing this up for me!:)

Sarm Maan kuen is a higher level form in our syetm , higher then sarm mun bagua, it starts with the salute and then stomps straight forwards into ping jing choy, step back and stomp of to your left ping jing choy, step back stomp boot choy, some people call it lum da, then drops down to gwa ma soy kuil. Does any of this seem similar to yours? Its has portions of sarm mun and then goes of into ying jow lin kuil running backwards like in the luk hup gao bou toy for.

Sei mun bagua indeed has portions of many forms and starts with the sek sze salute then into a day sut looking portion etc

anyway its all good, sifu used to say it builds chi and stamina.

take care
Garry:)