Ba Gwa Question...

[Ao Qin]

Hello - I have always loved the sight of Ba Gwa - moving Daoist meditiation - it is strikingly beautiful, powerful, and graceful - almost as beautiful as Dragon Style(!).

Anyway, whenever I read about Ba Gwa, there is little reference to traditional "hand sets" within the system. I have seen stunning sets performed by obvious masters in Hong Kong, but I'm now wondering if there is a prescribed curriculum (as in other styles), or were the demo's I saw "creative expressions" so to speak.

What I'm trying to ask here, is there a traditional hand form curriculum in Ba Gwa, does it depend on which system (I noticed in another thread there are at least 15 variations of the system)? And I mean aside from the palm change program - is there a "highest" form?

Excuse my ignorance - maybe I just haven't done enough research!

Cheers - Ao Qin

[Waidan]

There really isn't an established curriculum that transends all of the various sub-styles. Bagua is very subject to individual interpretation and expression, and can change dramatically between generations even in the same liniage.

Some schools I'm familiar with have many short forms. My school (Cheng) has relatively few forms, but they are quite lengthy. Still other schools emphasize lots of drills and may not teach forms at all.

It's safe to say the Eight Mother Palms are quite common, and serve as the basic hand form in many styles, but certainly not all.

[count]

Hi Ao Qin,
Nice website you have there. Each family style have their own sets but I believe all styles of bagua have a set covering the 8 mother palms. In our system we have 7 or 8 hand sets and at least 4 weapon sets that I know of. But bagua is more of a set of principles than forms. Every set has it's own basics and special training. One of our members here, Maoshan used to have a list of forms on his website that he had researched. I think his site is down now, but his list had over 100 different forms on it. Some seem to be in all methods but most are unique to the style.

[Ao Qin]

Hi Waidan and Count, thanks for the reply.

Please excuse my ignorance - I can't recall the founders name - Master Dong if memory serves - he did not create any regular hand sets?

Did not the history of Ba Gua start with this Master, then flow to two main (Cheng and Yin?) branches? Where did the established hand forms begin? Ba Gua is one of the few arts which has a solid, established, lineage - surely someone knows where the hand forms (if there are any?!?) came from? Who invented the "8 Mother Palms?".

I hope I'm not being rude. I have begun a study of Liu Ho Baat Fah, within which I am told there are elements of Ba Gwa. However, in LHBF, the curriculum is fairly constant between schools.

Cheers - Kevin

[gazza99]

The koreans invented Bagua, it was originally Bogwaa, a wandering priest or something. Bogwa-chung I believe was the true name.....
Yeah, and if you belive that , you should go back to your Temple Kung-fu class and sign on for another decade!

:D

Gary

[jon]

Ao Qin

I couldnt state this as fact however a popular legend which my teacher also told me and ive found commen to many Bagua schools.

Dong Hai Chan did not teach ANY of his students any LONG forms. Becouse he demanded that his students already have extensive experience he simply worked with there natural and prebuilt strengths and encouraged and changed them to suit his structure and principal.
Cheng Ting Hwa for example was a Shao Chaou master so his technique is heavy on throwing and locking
Yin Fu was a Lohan expert so his techinque is typicaly striking based.
Chang Tao Tung was a XingYi man so his technique has the same charging mentality commen to XingYi.

Dong Hai Chan its said also encouraged each of his students to create there own 'long' form which is what has commenly been passed down.
This is also what continues now with masters each focussing on there own particualar strengths and weaknesses.
What is commen to all Bagua is a similar power generation, fighting mindset and circle walking practice.
My linage only has the one long form.

[GLW]

I sincerely hope that Gazza99 was joking...that is the BS that is propagated by the Chung Moo doe folks and is so totally wrong it gets laughable.

A man named Bogwaa.... Sounds like a good name for a bad western movie.... "walking in a circle ain't much of a living, son" Clint Eastwood could play the wandering taoist...with a serape.

[Daniel Madar]

Not all styles use the 8 palms overtly, and not all of them use the same 8 mother palms.

[gazza99]

GLW,
See my last commet! Of course I was joking!
Gary

[GLW]

Knowing nothing about Temple Kung Fu....I guess I can count myself forutnate for that...or maybe I have missed a very good joke with them. CMD was ALMOST a good joke...except their yelling and screaming gets old.

[count]

Wouldn't all styles of bagua have at least 8 specific energies expressed in their power issues. I have always been a proponent of concept that the center of the hand is not the palms of baguazhang. What difference does it make where you hold your palms if you are expressing the same power? 8 mother palms is just a method of teaching single palm change. Don't all styles of bagua utilize single palm change?

[blacktaoist]

Daniel Madar:

Not all styles use the 8 palms overtly, and not all of them use the same 8 mother palms.


BT) Daniel has a very valid point. There are some Ba Gua Zhang methods that don't utilize the eight mother palms in their system. I read people up here on KFO talking about the 8 palms, but not one person yet, said any thing about the seventy-two Ba Gua Zhang Wai Dan training method.


Count:

8 mother palms is just a method of teaching single palm change. Don't all styles of bagua utilize single palm change?

BT) Well, What I learned The 8 mother palms is more then just a method of teaching a single palm change. Within my Ba Gua system The 8 mother palm method is more for the development of energy circulation within the body which promote health, strength, and longevity and even self-defense.

The Yin style Ba Gua Zhang I learn have more then just 8 mother palms, we have 54 mother palms utilize for stretching the tendons and cultivation of Qigong for martial arts and ones health.

Even the Cheng style Ba Gua Zhang system I'm learning from Sifu Li Tai Liang have more then 8 mother palms. I also train with Sifu Roosevelt Gainey who is the top student of the late C.C. Yang. Within his Ba Gua Zhang system they have 72 mother palms and a lot of taoist Nei Gung methods and freestyle circle walking methods.

So my point is Daniel is right, not all styles of Ba Gua Zhang utilize the standed 8 mother palms in their systems.

Peace.

[count]

Your point is taken, however I was refering to what is unique to the 8 mother palms. Sure there are many other palms within all systems, but aren't they in fact either repititions of the same energy or combinations of the same 8? For example, the hawk has both fire rising and water falling together, etc.

Also, I agree that the 8 mother palms is more than a method for single palm change. But other forms are more specifically for tendon stretching, power issuing, double palm change, fighting, etc. What is unique to the 8 mother palms is single palm change is emphasised over all. All forms should benefit self defense, promote good health and circulation.

I'm not knowlegable of all methods of baguazhang, but my understanding is they all follow the 8 gua's. Different styles have different terms for the same things. Can you tell more about the seventy-two Ba Gua Zhang Wai Dan training method?

[blacktaoist]

Count here is a link. I just put this up on my site, here is a like information about the Ba Gua Zhang 72 Wai Dan Chi Kung, also called the 72 traoists Wai Dan Chi Kung.
http://www.blacktaoist.com/Wai%20Dan.html

If you want more information about the Ba Gua 72 Wai Dan Chi Kung, you can e-mail sifu Roosevelt Gainey at TaoistGainey@earthlink.net

As for your viewpoint on the single palm change being emphasised over all. thats your own opinion or what you was taught. I know what I was taught from my Ba Gua teachers the single palm change is bacic level $hit.

From what I learned the major objective of the 8 mother palms method is to develop one's Chi (energy) for greater power for the martial arts. With long term training within the 8 mother palms many of my teachers told me, that one's chi can be transported to a specific area to resist a blow or punch. One wil develop the so called Iron Shirt or Golden Bell cover.

I only met three Ba Gua Zhang teachers that could do that Iron Shirt skill, Master Xu Shi Xi, Master Li Tai Liang, and Sifu Roosevelt Gainey. What blow me away with Sifu Roosevelt Gainey is he can also take full contact strikes to his armpits and ribs with out moving. But hey if you think I'm pulling your leg count, He is going to be at Bens all Ba Gua Zhang event, and you can have a try at him.:D
He mad cool and he loves to show off his Ba Gua Zhang skills. the guys in his 50's.

[count]

Excellent stuff.

I agree with you that 8 mother palms and single palm change is basic $hit. But how come most have the wrong idea of what single palm change is?

[blacktaoist]

Count thats a easy question. I think the reason is most Ba Gua Zhang practitioners never learn the Metaphysical part of the 8 mother palm circle walking method.

Many can't even walk the circle maintaining their fundamentals of Ba Gua theory of movement and body integration, but you see them trying to learn all these pretty looking Ba Gua Zhang forms. And when it comes to utilizing Ba Gua Zhang in a real fighting situation they can't apply nothing from their Ba Gua Zhang training.

The reason why is because they have not develop the real internal energy or fa jing from their 8 mother palm practice. So even if they was able to apply the principles of change it will do them no good if they don't have any real Chi or fa Jing power develop.

The way I was taught the 8 mother palms circle walking method is practice to increased one's Chi flow, develop good structural alignment that will lead to a dramatic improvement in one's body mechanics and Fa jing power from the moving postures. The next level is more metaphysical method and theorys of playing with the Chi (energy) one has develop, transporting the Chi methods. When one has this method down then they can move on to learning single palm change and the Gua's of their Ba Gua Zhang system.

But today most Ba Gua Zhang students go right to learning single change of palm, with out first developing their Chi, Body mechanics or Fa Jing power.
Thats the problem I see today with most Ba Gua practitioners. The other problem is many are just learning from fakes with no real Ba Gua Zhang knowledge.