Once again Jim Lacy tries to fool the martial community

[Dale Dugas]

Dear group,

My name is Dale Dugas and I have been watching this board for sometime and never had the urge to respond as most of you have incredible responses to the many questions posted here. Recently I have seen the mention of Jim Lacy once again and it made me rather unsettled. I felt compelled to sit down and write what was on my mind.

We have all seen/read the recent troubles with Jim Lacy and the garbage that he publishes under his suspect 18 Daoist Palms system.

Has anyone ever thought to check up on this system?

I was taught that Sup Bat Mo Jong is a form from the Ip Sui Chow Gar Tong Long Pai system of Southern Praying Mantis. I think you would translate it as 18 Devils Palm.

My B.A. is in Japanese and not Cantonese, so if I screw this up, all you Chinese speakers please help me out.

Jim Lacy recently had another one of his "articles" published in the August 2001 Black Belt magazine.

It was an interview article, actually a rewrite of something that was written a while back on breaking coconuts. Maybe the editor had nothing else to rely on and decided to rewrite the article and publish it, again.

I know that magazines are hard pressed to fill the pages, but do you think that the public is not going to figure out what you are doing at Black Belt?

The funny thing is they mention Jim's teacher, Grandmaster Doo Wai in passing, but offer nothing more on the subject.

If Jim Lacy is so great and has skills that make people want to flock to his style, then what about the man who supposedly taught him?

Usually a teacher has to posess an incredibly high degree of skill to teach a beginner all the way to master level.

Why don't we see articles about the teachers and not the students?

Jim mentions that he trained in Kempo under a first generation black belt under Grandmaster Ed Parker. Well, who is this mysterious teacher? What does this teacher have to say about Jim?

This sounds like another iron palm "Master" Brian Gray who never to this date, in any article or publication, has ever mentioned his teachers names.

Not that Brian Gray can't break things or is not authentic. Only his reluctance to name his teachers makes him suspect in the eyes of many Chinese martial artists.

Jim goes on to say that he trained in the Hawaiian systems and then Kung Fu San Soo.

Again, under Who? What Hawaiian systems is he talking about. Again, the readers are not given this information, so why mention it all?

Anyone can say they fought Ali or Bruce Lee, but you then have to back it up with some proof. If you can't then you are a liar, plain and simple.

The photos in the article show people who are leaning over and into their strikes as they power strike their way through the coconuts they are breaking.

If this is supposed to be internal Iron Palm, then why are they using the palm heel? Why not sit the coconut on a waist high table and have at it? Maybe they won't be able to reproduce their results?

Ive seen a lot of articles that talk about breaking but the demos they show reveal to the public it might be trick breaking at best.

You can break a coconut if you hit it hard on the seam. But then you still have to have some conditioning as it will hurt the hand if you don't.

Jim mentions that he is no longer a part of Grandmaster Doo Wai's association. Why?

Wouldn't a student wish to honor his teacher by showing him respect and helping him build a better association?

Jim also goes on to say that he has nothing to do with any other organizations. Now pardon me, fellow readers, but he does.

If you look into his credentials on his website and use any search engine on the web, you find that Jim has a few other associations he does business with, some that even put a PhD after his name. So why does he put into print that he has nothing to do with ANY other organizations? It sounds extremely fishy to me.

With all the bickering going on about who Jim Lacy is and what he studied, why is it articles are published without talking to the teacheror teachers who Jim claims taught him these skills?

Why don't we hear from Doo Wai in Black Belt or any of the other magazines and clear up this controversy once and for all?

I have not seen any articles recently that let Doo Wai, the 6th generational Grandmaster of Bak Fu Pai(White Tiger Kung Fu), comment on this seemingly rebelious renegade who drops Doo Wai's name to make a name for himself.

Hmm, maybe its the old American way of making money off others misery that is now starting to peek it's ugly head in the Chinese martial arts coummunity.

Any comments from you fellow educated readers?


In Boston,

Dale Dugas

[billy_pilgrim]

You wanted replies from educated readers, even though I don't meet the criteria, I feel compelled to respond nonetheless...

I don't know what amazes me more, the fact that MA mags still (apparently) publish this guy, or the fact that people who buy said mags actually believe what he says.

The man whom Lacy claims as his teacher has been saying for YEARS to anyone who would listen that Lacy's "training" consisted of no more than stealing video tapes and herbal formulas...the latter of which he went diving in dumpsters for. Yet, despite this, people still want to believe that there is some misunderstanding and that Jim must be the Grandmaster he presents himself to be, all because of a clumsy, brute force coconut break. :rolleyes:

[illusionfist]

Is a black belt not good enough for ya?

Do you want something more?

Well go to http://www.tejitsu.com/revised.htm and let Uncle Jim, errr, I mean Dr. Jim learn you some good karaddy...errr, i mean Kung Fooo.

[Ming Fai]

>Dale wrote : I was taught that Sup Bat Mo Jong is a form from the Ip Sui Chow Gar Tong Long Pai system of Southern Praying Mantis. I think you would translate it as 18 Devils Palm. <

I think the correct translation would be Eighteen Rubbing Palms.

BYE

[BIU JI]

taihen da na!

[mantis-1]

Ironmonk67

do you mean, sup baat yau loong (18 swimming dragons) or sup baat um gen sau (18 internal dark power hands)

[Shaolindynasty]

Who is Jim Lacey?

Witness the Dynasty!!!
New Site! www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

[Turiyan]

Dark power hands!? That was made up to make it sound scary. Its "crossing the bridge at night", 3 step arrow done starting off on the "bridge".

Lacey said a few times why he broke with doo. It was because doo wanted a yes man/lapdog and lacy was (enter some astrological mumbo jumbo) and it was against his nature. Paraphrased.

The coconut breaking i've seen from both sides of the issue wasnt very impressive. I saw doo do some breaking and it was horrible. He set the coconut on a chair, leaned down, wacked it a few times, reset it, and then finally broke it apart.

I saw another demo, the guy does the classic, "swipe it several times" and then looks at the coconut, sets it up, and then breaks it with his fist. I guess thats their idea of "iron fist is iron palm".

Turiyan gold, Brahmin caste, Ordos clan

The REAL taichi:
http://www.wfdesign.com/tc/
http://www.wustyle.com/108.html

Chinese military forum:
http://www.anyboard.net/plaboard/

[Brad]

this guy: http://www.ironpalm.com

All these MA Hall of Fames are a crock. I personally knew a guy who got into the World Martial Arts Hall of Fame by nominating himself.
Had a certificate on his wall exactly like the one on Lacy's site. :mad:

[Brad]

He's very obviously a liar. You can't be the Grandmaster of a system if the old Grandmaster's still around.

[billy_pilgrim]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
I saw doo do some breaking and it was horrible. He set the coconut on a chair, leaned down, wacked it a few times, reset it, and then finally broke it apart.
[/quote]

Yeah, I saw this too...He broke a coconut that was sitting on a cushioned chair. Let me know where I can view the video of you doing a better break...Oh wait, I forgot, you never respond to a direct post/question...

Still viewing those mail order Kung Fu vids with Mom? Give her my best...

[billy_pilgrim]

Anyone who wishes to view the break that is easy for Turiyan to accomplish :rolleyes: can do so here...

http://www.whitetigerkungfu.com/clips/cocoanutbreak.wmv

Things to keep in mind: the coconut is placed at knee level, on a CUSHIONED chair. This is not the, place it on a concrete floor, hover over it, bring your right hand as far back behind your head as possible and hit it as hard as you can break that Lacy does.

Like I said, this is easy for Turiyan to accomplish, but some of us who aren't armchair mystics and don't have homepages built from books we purchased from the "occult" section of Barnes and Nobles are impressed.

I'm sure our friend from Clearwater will be posting a video of himself doing something far superior to this in a few days...

[billy_pilgrim]

Look what Turiyan posted on another msg board:

"Hmmm, if your so ripped off, if those that have tapes are so dissapointed.
Why not sell or give them away? Or dub them and throw them on a 8 hour tape
EP and i'll pay priority shipping and maybe a couple of bux to cover the
cost of the tape.
Seems like a great deal but you know what? I about guarantee no one would
take me up on the offer. I'll hold back my theory on why, but I think its
obvious. "

This was his reply to some people who felt (rightfully so) defrauded by Lacy! Contrast this to the neutral, unbiased posture he likes to adopt on this board, and, it begins to explain his silly posts and why he feels so much animosity towards GM Doo. What's the matter, Turiyan? Can't cough up the $60/tape your teacher likes to charge? If you're looking for a deal on fabricated Kung Fu (which it seems you are), let me know, I'd be happy to throw some phony forms and meditations on a tape for you, we can discuss pricing later if you're interested...

Dude, why go to such elaborate lengths to present a knowledeable persona on this board, only to undermine yourself with posts on another? At least adopt a pseudonym or something...

[Shaolindynasty]

I recongise him from some magazine articles a few months ago. When I first read his articles I thought he was suspect. He is a little to "new age cult mystic" for me. Never seen him in action though can't judge.

Witness the Dynasty!!!
New Site! www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

[Ross]

Maybe the thing to do is to write up some sort of decent article about Doo Wai and his accomplishments if you think it is important.

If nothing comes from Doo Wai then Lacey will be the only one to publish. You could equally ask what has Doo Wai to hide that he has not published more to quiet down Lacey. There was much controversy before about Doo Wai's tapes. Seems one claim against Lacey was that he had learnt fake sets but when someone asked where they had come from....you guessed it...they were from the white tiger organisation. I think that the claim was that they had been "stolen". Now if the tapes were "stolen" one must assume that there had been intention to pass these "fake" tapes onto the public.

Perhaps this should be a case of "let he who has no sins throw the first stone" eh?

Ironmonk...you seem to have alot of interest/concern for an univolved spectator. Not that I am big on Lacey or anyone else but don't you live in the land of free speech?

Cheers fron the UK,
R

[billy_pilgrim]

Jim Lacy hung around the GM for a couple of years, then, he pulled his now infamous stunt, stealing videos from a private collection and sifting through the trash for herbal formulas. After doing this, he then gets the brilliant idea to set himself up as a grandmaster and begin teaching the forms he has on these stolen tapes, forms he was never taught and forms he does not know how to even do properly! This is not, nor has it EVER been the case of Jim and GM Doo having a student/teacher relationship. Yes, I know Jim likes to portray it as that, but the facts are that Jim is trying to steal something that he was never anything other than casually acquainted with in the first place!!! MUCH of the information that he now teaches is fabricated and DID NOT come from those stolen tapes. Don't believe me? Contact some of Lacy's ex-lohons, they will tell you, Jim told them to "make it up" as they went along producing videos for him. What was your question again, R?
Why has GM Doo not published more? Why should he have to??? What kind of logic is that, the only way to counter Lacy is to try and beat him at his own game and start wholesaling Kung Fu??? If Lacy wants to sell Kung Fu, then let him, and let all those who want to learn from him be warned, and, if you still like what he's selling, then go aheand and send him your cash. Real Bak Fu Pai will always be available to those who want it...

[Ross]

(Over the top....english expression ;) )

Billy....me thinks thou protesteth too much.

I didn't suggest your sifu prostitue himself only that perhaps if you want to take away Lacey's credibility then maybe there should be an article about the "real" Bak Fu Pai so people know the truth.

Now I realize that nothing will convince you that Lacey might have been a student of your Grandmaster. You might consider that people have often tried to steal (usually by false friendship) a Master's treasures.

When you say Lacey "hung " around your teacher for a couple of years you you might think that Lacey might have learnt something?? How exactly does one study at a club for a couple of years and not have a student/teacher relationship? Surely you aren't implying that Lacey was being treated as an equal to your sifu?

Ignore these last questions..winding you up a bit! :D

Anyways...I do honestly sympathize with your plight. But I still think...put the truth out for all to see (in a reputable publication so it is clear that the story really comes from your GM) and perhaps a few less people will be suckered by Lacey or any other pretenders.

For what its worth....

R

[This message was edited by R on 07-03-01 at 02:19 PM.]

[billy_pilgrim]

R,
Jim Lacy is a Kempo guy, and he thinks like many Kempo guys, to him, a traditional style is nothing more than a thoughtless warehouse of "techniques" to be added to an ever growing Kempo collection. So, when I say he hung around the GM for a couple of years, I could also say that he "attached" himself to the GM for a couple of years as would your average parasite (this analogy isn't my own, but I find it very fitting and am hereby adding it to my own collection).
If Lacy was ever a student of GM Doo Wai, then he would know such basic things as proper terminology, proper names for various stances and movements, but instead, he teaches Kempo handwork, Kempo stances, Kempo movement, even Kempo terminology, and is asking you to believe that it's all 300+ year old authentic internal Kung Fu from a tight lineage. I used the phrase "hung around" because it was the most fitting, if Lacy was ever a student in any sense of the word...then where did all the Kempo come from????
GM Doo Wai has only granted two interviews (that I'm aware of) in over 30 years of being in America, I do not think he is apt to do another anytime soon, but, if he does, I'll keep everyone posted.

[Scott]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I saw doo do - Turiyan [/quote]


HAHAHA.

-Scott

"Life is hard, but so am I." -- The Eels.

[Sil Lum Palm]

I also read Lacy's recent article and I wondered why he never mentioned the names of his teachers or exactly what the other systems were either. Thats wasn't internal iron palm either, trust me. He might break coconuts , but I don't think he really has any "true skills" in anything but storytelling. I apologize for the truth.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Here's my opinion on some facts, not attacking anyone: breaking a coconut ISN'T internal iron palm...it's just iron palm...it requires conditionning, some kind of conditionning that could prove detrimental when you get old...Haven't you ever wondered why many reknowned internal teachers have very gentle hands, without visible trace, and why they scoff at the guys having these big callous or deformed hands? Have you read what katana legend Musashi said about his own hands? That when he was young "his hands were hard and rugous as wood, but now that he's older and experienced his hands ressemble that of babies"??
THAT is internal training...there was a contemporary bagua practicionner (the name eludes me at the time) that could hit a watermelon with all his might and the watermelon had no trace...but if you cut it, the whole interior would just be turned as pulp...now THAT is internal...and this student of Park Bok Nam who, attacked by a dog, slapped him with a bagua hand...the dog died the morning after without visible cause except a massive internal heamorragy...same with another bagua practicionner who killed a boar by merely rubbing its forehead (no trace also, but the whole animal brain was liquified).And Xing yi's Kuo Yu Cheong who could break dozens of bricks laid on the ground (bricks on bricks, no separators like in modern breaks) while slapping them from only several inches...the guy wasn't even leaning or tilting his body, he was perfectly straight, lots of famous pics exist of him...he'd just lower his arm and boom, the bricks disintegrate...I heard of a footage that even shows him breaking a specific brick in the pile, at will (I'll let you judge if you trust it or not).
My point is: breaking coconut isn't internal iron palm (unless you do it Kuo Yu Cheong style, but apparently someone said "raise your hand as high above your head as possible and lean" so it's definitely oppositee to what he'd do)...you can break coconuts with a hammer...we all know internal strikes are compared to lots of things (the most famous being a whip) but NEVER to a hammer...
That was my humble opinion...it doesn't mean that the one breaking coconuts are not good...but they definitely CANNOT claim they're doing something internal...

Phoenix

[Dale Dugas]

Go to http://www.tejitsu.com and see Jim Lacy put a PhD after his name. Its rather bogus and insulting to people who have spent their lives studying for REAL. Degrees for sale are making people who have EARNED them look rather bad, don't you think?

Jim should get a PhD in Fantasy Kung fu. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

In Boston,

Dale Dugas

[Hiram]

Do you know of any links that have that specific footage of Kuo Yu Cheong you mentioned?

[billy_pilgrim]

Crimson,
REAL BFP iron palm training does not leave the hand in a hardened, calloused state such as what you described. I agree with everything you wrote, but given your own descriptions, I would have to categorize BFP iron palm as "internal". Coconut breaking is a skill, no more no less, the people I know who REALLY know BFP hardly ever mention it.

[Turiyan]

The original poster claimed no proficency in cantonese. But said he learned Japanese in a university? Maybe I shouldnt comment.

But this is the united states. We dont do personal introductions here. Its not important here. We also dont worship tree's. We dont bow.

The chinese say: One action makes ones name. They also say you only have one face to lose. I dont agree. But I like to think that actions do speak more than words.

That stuff stays in Japan or a Japanese household or the protocols of the classroom. We dont have name ranks and serial numbers.

I'd like to think of n. americans as having more individual freedom and a sense of identification than the Japanese do.

I was even more suprised to see that the poster says he teaches BFP. Unless its another white tiger....

What have you learned about the grammar of japanese? Why not ask your grandmaster doo some straight answers and get some straight explainations?

Like they say, talk to the pig about the pork. Not the chef. Talk to the wall about the wall, not the carpenter.

It seems to me that someone must be incredibly stupid, or this is a setup. I dont know what.

Where did doo learn his wing chun? And why does yip mans family not remember ever seeing his face around? Then there is the white eyebrow....

Something someone also forgot to mention. Some of the original legal issues was lacey supposedly ripping off doo's video's. He was selling copys with doo in them.

Doo had him stopped with legal action but lacey supposedly just remade the material from his personal copys and published them through panther.

The "where did brian grey learn X" lines of questioning expound values that are incompatable with the issues. If you want to publish brian greys bibliography, contact him directly. Does he make money giving away things for free? I dont.

Those that have actually read his books tell me that he does name his teachers. I havent read the books so I cant tell who's telling the truth or not. This is classic martial arts doubletalk. "X video/teacher sucks", you contact them for a copy.

"Oh, I dont have it, a guy I know has them", "A guy I trust told me this...", "My sifu said..."

Classic western pride and arrogance. "My name should be enough"

I'm biting my tongue here and maybe I should just hit send. Besides, I have someone to kick off my mailing list....

Turiyan gold, Brahmin caste, Ordos clan

The REAL taichi:
http://www.wfdesign.com/tc/
http://www.wustyle.com/108.html

Chinese military forum:
http://www.anyboard.net/plaboard/

[Turiyan]

I'm one of the only that uses my real name here. You have a problem with that? Secondly, You didnt have permission to repost my message.

Third, its a pathetic wwwboard if a message from what seems like a year ago is still on there.

Why not post a link to the wu gar site eh? Afraid they'll see my other asschewings?

Quality stuff peachfuss.

Turiyan gold, Brahmin caste, Ordos clan

The REAL taichi:
http://www.wfdesign.com/tc/
http://www.wustyle.com/108.html

Chinese military forum:
http://www.anyboard.net/plaboard/

[feldor]

Turiyan,

Is sure does seem as though you are a Lacy follower. Some of your questions are interesting. I will try and answer some of them.

Where did Doo Wai learn White eyebrow? Cheung Lai Cheun. As you know , it is common practice for masters or grandmasters who are friends to sometimes teach certain things to each other.

No one said that GM Doo Wai was an expert in Wing Chun or Bak Mei. But, don't you think it is smart practice to learn about arts you may have to go against in combat? Remember, Bak Fu Pai is very old and unchanged.

Your reference to "old" email is interesting. would it matter if the email were 1 or 10 years old?? The fact is Jim Lacy is a FRAUD! I will be posting the email to the board momentarily.

Respectfully,
Charles

[Crimson Phoenix]

Dang I suck with acronyms...what does BFP stand for?

[Crimson Phoenix]

hah, I get it, must be bak fu pai...
Ignore my question!!

[Dale Dugas]

Turiyan,

I'm a little confused, are you talking about my post or someone elses? I didn't seem to see any other posts between the two that you had listed here in the forum.

I don't agree with your comment about not doing personal introductions here in the US. What do you do when you meet someone new? Just stand there and smile at them? That was silly to say.

I think most would agree that we introduce ourselves and use business cards as much as the Japanese do. Not bowing is accurate.

We do have more individual freedom here in the US, but I have to say you should go to Japan and see for yourself how the younger generations are acting.

I would say our sense of identification here in the US is going in the toilet as more and more people stay in their houses and order their food online and do everything online rather than go out and deal with life personally. Can you stiil stand by your remark when you look at that? I think not.

In my original post I made no mention of being a Bak Fu Pai instructor, so what are you talking about? Did you misread something? You said "you were surprised to see the poster says he teaches Bak Fu Pai". You lost me again. I didnt't see anyone post that.

You then mention Japanese grammar and then say I should go talk to GM Doo Wai and get some straight answers.

The Japanese are infamous for talking around something without directly talking about it. As are other Asian cutlures/languages. Being that you have had little or no experience with the Japanese language, you wouldn't know this.

If your comments were directed at me and my post, I'm neither stupid nor setting anyone up. I am sick of Jim Lacy saying all the lies and totally made up crap to discredit all those he has pulled into his fantasy world.

Jim Lacy created all this garbage to humilate GM Doo Wai and create dissension among the CMA community at large. There is no BFP wing chun, there is no BFP Northern Shaolin. This crap was invented by our infamous clown about town, Jim Lacy.

His claims to teach 1000's of forms is ludicrous as anyone who claims to have the skill to do that. You can tell by looking at him perform his "stuff" that he is rather linear about the way he moves. He doesn't look like any of the Jook Lum people and how they move. Nor does he look like Bak Mae people when they do their forms. But then he never trained for real in any of the arts that he pretends to teach.

He is a fool, and unless he can demo more than the breaks and a couple of forms, he should not claim to be Grandmaster. In his articles he writes that he trained for 10 years and became the GM of a supposed Chinese system. Anyone with half a brain and 10 years of training is not going to spout off about being a Grandmaster. But then we seem to have this problem here in the US in that many people want to be a martial arts master and not master the martial arts. The two things are not one in the same.

I mentioned Brian Gray as reference to Lacy not naming his Kempo teachers nor the Hawaiian system teachers he claims to have studied under. I have issues with Brian Gray that I have posted in Inside Kung Fu in the letters section a few years back. At least Brian Gray doesn't claim to teach ridiculous amounts of forms and training programs like Lacy.

I'll have to go dig it up and post it if and when I can find it. I am sorry, but Brian Gray has not EVER mentioned ANYONE as his teacher(s).I have read his books and there is no mention at all within their pages. Whoever told he did is not telling you the truth.

I never said that Brian Gray sucks, I said that many people are made to feel suspect of his claims as he never mentioned who taught him what, in his articles and books.

You surprise me Turiyan. We have communciated in the past, but you seem to have forgotten me. I was on the Iron Palm list which fizzled out a while back. We talked about Brian Grays methods on there as well. You seemed to be okay at that time with what Brian Gray teaches to his people as his Iron Palm training.

I'm sorry that I don't have the time to spend on this forum as you seem to have. I have to work and then go to school and then train. I don't have much free time to sit down and enjoy this forum. But I have to make the time as I feel it's important to keep up these types of forums.

You can email me anytime and ask anything you like Turiyan. I have nothing to hide. I look forward to agreeing to dissagree if that be the case.

In Boston,

Dale Dugas
aka Ironmonk67

[billy_pilgrim]

Turiyan,
I can honestly say that I'm surprised you took the time to read the replies to your post, this has to be a first...too bad you didn't take the time to read those posts carefully, as Dale has kindly pointed out, but I suppose that would be too much to ask.

Any and all are welcome to view your ramblings on the wugar site...it's incredibly funny that you would refer to them as "asschewings". Delusions of grandeur, Turiyan? Believe it or not, no one is losing sleep over your posts, despite what mom may be telling you...

As for real names, I should think "Billy Pilgrim" about as real as "Turiyan Gold", but if you want me to be more specific, feel free to ask. I promise you, you will be disappointed, my name is not worth the trouble of asking for it, but I'm flattered nonetheless...

By the way, still waiting on that video clip of your break...

[billy_pilgrim]

Turiyan,
While we're on the subject, do you want to talk about those emails you used to send out telling people that Doo Wai wasn't really Chinese, and that you could tell this because of "the shape of his head" :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Oh...sorry, I guess I didn't have your permission to mention that...yes, Turiyan, you are certainly brave, brave enough to use your "real name" while posting, but you don't want anyone to repost what you write...why is that?
Your motives are transparent to all, why not just take your Lacy tapes and go to your room...