What is a martial art?

[curtis]

High guys !
I just finished arguing with my brother. (I debate about the martial art's with anyone, but I argue with my brother. HE SHOULD KNOW BETTER! .) Anyways,
He said boxing was not a martial art. He claimed it was a sport,
"no matter how or why it originated, it is now a sport."
This brought up the question. Is boxing a sport or a martial art? If you incest it is a sport, then I ask you how about judo or Tae kwon do? Are they do martial arts?
What it comes down to,is what is a M/A and why is it different from a sport?
What do you think?
C.A.G.

[Former castleva]

That´s a good question.If you read some book or search the net for a site with info on that,it could say "martial art-collection of techniques for offense and defense" or something like that.
That sounds like an easy answer,you can just pop out and say "Oh yeah,that´s it".It becomes more complicated when one thinks more about it.It is said that martial art is a tool.
How you use it,is your choise.I remember reading a site which had some skilled practitioners words to the direction of "MA is like a knife,a good cook is able to make delicious food with it,while an evil person can only use it to hurt people".
One person may go for ma to gain self-confidence and ability to take care of oneself and his/her society,another one may want to become fit and healthy,someone may want to make friends with other people,one wants to learn a way of life based on martial principles.
They are all basically doing martial arts.
If we focus our gazes on this,we could suppose that for martial art to be martial art it shall be able to:
-Build a foundation of great health
-Teach practical strategies for daily protection and safety of oneself (and others)
-Teach natural attitude and philosophy to be used for daily living and mental well-being
-Offer a way to harmonize with nature,spread good will among circumstances,to fill what is lacking and constantly continue with limits

These I believe,are all good reasons,and for "martial" needs "art" to become a way of justice.

Taekwondo and judo as an example,are "way of fist and foot"&"gentle way".
They both do have "do"=(lifestyle/way of life) to it.
It is often noticed that taekwondo and judo are often very sport oriented arts,which is one way to use them.
However,"traditional" taekwondo still exists besides sport/olympic taekwondo,just like judo may not necessarily be a sport in any case.This same manner/fashion can be found from some other arts too.
It could be said that martial sports like boxing and related arts could be martial arts,it´s slightly a question of view.
For me they are not-my opinion is based on their structure.

I hope this helps a bit.
Don´t be afraid to keep chatting if something concerns you.




:)

[SevenStar]

Actually, it can be deemed as both - judo, tkd and boxing are martial sports.

the term 'art' implies that there is more to it than just fighting - there's history, possibly religion, etc. judo is a sport form of a combat art. modern tkd, while an art, is generally different from old style tkd which resembled shotokan. There was a bitter rivalry bewteen the koreans and japanese, and the koreans did not want their art to resemble the japanese karate and would not admit that it descended form the japanese system. all of the flashy kicks were added, alot of the grappling and hand techs were removed, it was over time elected as a national (the national?) sport and eventually evolved the sport tkd that we have today. I know that not all tkd is taught in the sport format, but I am talking about the sport, as it pertains to this topic.

can you learn to fight with these sports? definitely. And in alot of cases, faster than in the traditional styles. With alot of the sports however, the classes may be more informal, and they may or may not get into the history, religion, etc. of the system.

[No_Know]

Perhaps nearly every sport is a Martial Art in essence. Winning by defeat of another--individual or group.

The sports where it's person to person might tend to be more the stereotypical Martial Art.

If it has judging or scoring it's a sport. Sometimes it's both.

If it's based on hurting, killing, maiming, no scoring, it might be a Martial Art but not a sport.

Perhaps, some-such some might say.

[Shadow Dragon]

For me the difference depends on what the end-goal of your training is.

Martial Sport is done to gain certain health benefits like other Sports.
or to compete against other people in order to win prices, trophies status, etc.

Martial Art is for the people that look for something more than just an physical exercise.

People that practice MA solely for SD purpose, IMHO, miss a lot of what MA is all about plus those benefits and limit themselves nearly as much as people that do it as a sport or simply for Health improvement.

I practice Martial Arts in order to learn a skill and to enhance myself(mentally, physically and any other aspect that is affected by my MA training).
My goal is self-imrpovement, not sport or self defense.
Those for me are fringe benefits.
End of Rant.

Peace.

[kohai]

I don't know what normally goes on in Michigan, but I personally do not consider incest a sport, or an art.:)

[Helicopter]

Listen to Kohai he's from the Isle of Man, they know all there is to know about inbreeding.


:D

[Boffo]

Martial arts is a very general label that applies to the skills used in a fighting, sport, or performance medium. It is often implied in dictionaries to be specific to skills designed by Eastern cultures, although there are those who argue that western skills be included as well. In addition, there are those who argue that martial arts must include meditative or philosophical concepts.

[Mr. Bao]

Listen I won't get long winded like some in explaining this sh*t. Can you hurt some with boxing techniques? Can you woop some ass with boxing techniques? If the answer is yes then it's a martial art without the gi and bowing and sh*t. Simple enough, tell your brother to go to a black man's boxing gym and tell the boxers that their bxing skills ain't combative. They will tear your brother white ass and you will win the argument plus you can laugh at yur brother's ignorance.

Bao

[kohai]

Helicopter is right, but we consider it more of a hobby than anything else. Anyway, "southwest UK"? If he's from either Devon or Cornwall he can hardly talk.:D

[JerryLove]

He said boxing was not a martial art. He claimed it was a sport Refresh my memory... why are those two exclusive?


They both do have "do"=(lifestyle/way of life) to it. So, rename it to "boxing-do" and it can be a martial art?


the term 'art' implies that there is more to it than just fighting It does? So a culinary art is about more than cooking? And a performing art is about more than the performance (say dance, or singing)? Care to support?


modern tkd, while an art, is generally different from old style tkd which resembled shotokan. There was a bitter rivalry bewteen the koreans and japanese, and the koreans did not want their art to resemble the japanese karate and would not admit that it descended form the japanese system. Ug! It looks like shotokan because the people who set the standards had learned from the Japanese. There are indegenous Korean Hyung that are not Japanese descended (though, go far enough back, and they are Chinese descended) and they were absorbed into TKD, but show little influence on TKD.


can you learn to fight with these sports? definitely. And in alot of cases, faster than in the traditional styles. With alot of the sports however, the classes may be more informal, and they may or may not get into the history, religion, etc. of the system. I'm in a purely combat art (keilat kilap petjut serak). There is no competition / sport aspect at all. There is very little formalits, and no religion, and only the sligtest trace of history.

It's fighting, not antropology.


Perhaps nearly every sport is a Martial Art in essence. Winning by defeat of another--individual or group. "Martial" is in deference to "Mars: Roman god of War". To be "Martial" it must be "warlike of suited for a warrior" (Mirriam Webster).

[Former castleva]

"So, rename it to "boxing-do" and it can be a martial art?"
Perhaps,if you add/change a bunch of it.
Those are my standards,and probably of many others.
For some people tennis is a lifestyle,for some people it´s drugs&alcohol etc. They can be way-of-lives but not the same manner.

[curtis]

HI guy's
I've been out of town. This topic has a life of its own.
The difference between art and sport can be confusing. I guess the main difference is the intent, why and how are you going to perform what you're doing.
Some elements of a sport can be use for self-defense. Although many elements of the sport will get you killed in a self-defense type of confrontation.

Another way of looking at is. The term martial art leads people to think of the Orient. (Perhaps rightfully so, Sense they brought the philosophy of combat to its highest levels.) Where boxing is manly European. (And has a completely different origin.) although boxing is now a sport it derived from European fencing. Which means it does fit the definition of martial art.

There are no clear lines to follow. That is what makes this topic so interesting.

Thank you, ( for everyone's input.), IM looking forward to continue this discussion.
Have good day. C.A.G.

[SevenStar]

"I'm in a purely combat art (keilat kilap petjut serak). There is no competition / sport aspect at all. There is very little formalits, and no religion, and only the sligtest trace of history.

It's fighting, not antropology. "

no doubt. The kuntao silat group I work with doesn't get into all of that either. My point was that you'll find more traditional arts that teach all of those things than you will sport styles.

[bob10]

Originally posted by curtis
HI guy's

Another way of looking at is. The term martial art leads people to think of the Orient. (Perhaps rightfully so, Sense they brought the philosophy of combat to its highest levels.) .

Hmm not sure I'd agree with that. If we are talking systems of "self development", maybe that's one thing. If we are talking war / military then it could also be said that they allowed their philosophy of combat to remain fixed and atrophy - spears vs guns? Chi vs bullets? Sun tzu vs Clausewitz?

cheers

R

[Former castleva]

China still holds the greatest warfare history.

[bob10]

In what way? In size of empire, conquests, being undefeated, military innovations?

R

[curtis]

BOB
WOW!
You came up, in the one place I never thought of looking. You are absolutely Right ! I was looking at the hand-to -hand type of combat, as well as martial arts (styles) but as history has served us. You are correct as far as Chinese go, although the Japanese and Koreans may have a slightly different view. (No! Now that think about it, you are absolutely correct!)
Thank you BOB, perhaps WE should not be caught up in the nostalgia. After all the art of war is always being re-written by the victors.
Sincerely C.A.G.


P.S. Who is Clausewitz?:)

[nospam]

Any fighting type activity requiring human effort, imagination and skill is a MA - judo, boxing, fencing, knife fighting, whatever!

A MA can also be a sports activity. The skill is dedicated more to a set of governing rules ALL adhere and practise to.

So boxing is a MA. It is then up to the individual if they want to excercise their skill in sport, self-defence or straight fighting or a combination of them all and more...

To say judo is simply a sport and not worthwhile in a 'normal' brawl is dumb...your right to think and say so, but dumb nonetheless. I would imagine theres many a sports boxer that could whoop a karatika, and visa versa.

SPorts oriented MAs train differently - that is to say they emphasize areas or take to extreme certain areas that all MAs share in commone. Such as conditioning. In sports you need to last anywhere from 3-12+ rounds of fighting. So emphasis is on cardio conditioning. In a non-sporting fight...me and my neighbour...I'll kick her a$$ in less time than it takes for a boxer to get one hand wrapped!

Many a folk practise and emphasize the 'art' aspect vs the 'martial'. Especially in modern day tai bo..er, I mean tai qi. Too many gung fu enthusiasts, IMNSHO, just want forms forms and more forms. These 'people' are also MAs, but of a different sort. Their application again differs.

nospam.
:cool:

[Shaolin Punk]

to me, the concept of art seems to be more about the process rather than the end product. by this definition any process for anything, such as plumbing, or refrigerator repair i'd define as art.

sports implies competition and end results. wushu forms competition are sports, push hands contests are sports chi sao competitions is a sport, kong sao challenges are sports...as long as the mindset is focused on defeating others, it is a competitive sport.

but that doesn't mean fighting arts are necessarily sports. if one does a fighting art, but isn't consumed with defeating others and being defeated, and is doing the discipline purely for its own sake, with no regard to any particular "ends", maybe this is what is the art. and perhaps this is near impossible to do in the beginning, when you are developing a foundation. maybe it is something that comes after the foundation is solid, when there is less cognitive thinking invloved...the sport turns into an art.

in essence, any discipline whatsoever is about learning techniques/concepts, or developing "tools" for situations. i don't see a distinction between any discipline to favor one as an "art" and the other as not. therefore, i think the art lies in the process rather than the end results of any particular discipline.

but i am probably wrong, and am happy to acknowledge so. i think if you really want to get at the heart of this debate, you must have a very solid and clear definition of what the definition of "art" is, and what the definition of "sport" is.

[Boffo]

Originally posted by Former castleva
China still holds the greatest warfare history.

I'll give the Chinese that they have a lot of pride in their martial arts studies.

On warfare, I have to respectfully disagree. There are too many other examples of nations and empires with a greater degree of warfare competancy. China's ongoing history is more a matter of the stability of its social structure and written language than a testament to its military capacity.

[LEGEND]

Sorry former...china sucks when it came to military...mongols kick their ass...the japanese kick their ass...then communism permanently kicked their ass.

[No_Know]

If they were so kicked they would have had to change the name.

For a kicked peoples there seem to be quite several around.

One called LEGEND, I No_Know that you fully understand what it means to be beaten...good for you.