Why do you think TST is good?

[urban tea]

I'd like to start this topic on why you guys think Tsui Seung Tin is good. This is not a flame against the man. I have high respects for him and he is a really nice and honest person. I would just like to experiment here because the way he does wing chun tends to break the typical wc rules.

1. Elbows in
2. Low Stance

They do not hold their elbows at the center. They prefer the elbows out near the waist. They feel that having the elbow at the center tenses the chest/shoulder area.

When doing the hand sets, their "other" hand is not pulled all way the way back but rather just held up near the chest. They feel that if you pull your hand all the way back you are too tense.
Other methods say that if you pull the hand (in a fist) all the way back, then you are stretching and loosing that muscle. (deltoid?)

Their stance is really high to a point where there is hardly any physical pain on the legs or knees. Their rolling in chi sau is at a fast pace. There are no little 1 second pauses...looks sloopy and looks like they are not really listening,feeling with their hands.

This is what a typical person would observe and say about the TST method.
BUT once they start to learn their way, they will understand why they do things the way they do.

Again, I love the guy and he's very skilled. I would just like to hear why you think he's good.... reasons further than from others, even your sifu, have told you.

[saulauchung]

Urban Tea,

Interesting post. Just wondered what had you based your observations on - the man himself or his students/student's students?

I ask this because I saw a second generation student of TST doing his SLT the way you described.

SLC

[Rill]

They do not hold their elbows at the center. They prefer the elbows out near the waist. They feel that having the elbow at the center tenses the chest/shoulder area.

Firstly, who is 'they'? Secondly, where are you getting your information from?


When doing the hand sets, their "other" hand is not pulled all way the way back but rather just held up near the chest. They feel that if you pull your hand all the way back you are too tense.
News to me. Actually, let me rephrase - what a load of hogswash. Again I wonder where you're getting your information from? Yes, it would be helpful if you could name names.


Their stance is really high to a point where there is hardly any physical pain on the legs or knees. Their rolling in chi sau is at a fast pace. There are no little 1 second pauses...looks sloopy and looks like they are not really listening,feeling with their hands.
Remind me again why you're supposed to be feeling physical pain in your knees in your stance? Your weight is supposed to be on your legs, not your knees. Speed when rolling in chi sao will vary on whatever time of day you happen to look at someone. I'm quite sure that not everyone out there rolls at a constant pace at all times? What 1 second pauses are you talking about? And finally, looks are deceiving - but since you mentioned looks, got some links to photos or videos you're referring to?

[Rill]

1. What do you define as a high and low stance?

2. I've been reading people mention that they have their knees <= 1.5 fist distances - what's the reason behind this?

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by urban tea
I'd like to start this topic on why you guys think Tsui Seung Tin is good. Will there be a topic on why we think he's bad? Just asking...

[hunt1]

better topic- Why you,meaning anyone on this forum ,think you are qualified to judge TST's wing chun.

[yuanfen]

Met him(Of course he has met many)
Done chi sau with him( " " ))
Been to seminars and demos.
Read al articles in English that
I am awre of. Read Fung's books- seen video.
Been in wc for a long time.
Met many other top flight people.
Have visited other lineages.

[yuanfen]

PS>: But I dont jump to criticising any of the folks who really studied with YM for a while- and TST did. Ip man knew more than all of them combined I am sure(self evident in the results). But each got different pieces of the whole pie. Hence the importance of comparing in civil fashion the differnt pieces of the Ip Man puzzle and other wing chun puzzles as well.

[urban tea]

Again, I want to remind everyone that this post is just to see why people think he's good. It's not to talk down TST...i really lilke the guy.

My statements are based on 3 months training with his 20 year student Ma Kee Fei and 3 visits to his school. During those three months, it was pretty much one on one because the class he teaches at the VTAA is in the daytime. Hardly anyone goes during the day (1-4pm) But there are many of TST's friends that come to visit and talk to Ma. I even had a chance to roll with a student from the Leung Ting side.

I am NOT saying that I have seen all of his kung fu or anything like that. I also worked out with many of Jim Fung's student that came to visit from Australia. I have also attended a few of the monthly VTAA meetings and met other students of TST from 5 to 10 years experience.

Again, i'm not saying that I am qualified to judge his wing chun. This post is just out of plain interest to see what others would say.

During my training with Ma, he told me about their theory and how it compares to others. He also told me a few great stories from back in the days.

The stance looks like they are just standing up, with the knees slightly bent. (Just so that they are not locked) To me, a low stance is where the knees are a fist apart. Their high stance looks likle someone who is just standing up.

[hunt1]

With the correct body alignment an upright 50/50 stance can tranfser and absorb an infinite amount of energy while allowing maximum mobility.

[Rill]

I have been told numerous times that the 'unused' arm in the hand forms is kept pulled back constantly in an effort to help build it, amongst other things.

I have also been told that you should keep your elbows inside your body line, as much on centre as possible (without making yourself look like an idiot/uncomfortable by moving them in more than they will naturally go). I'm still a little confused by your 'They prefer the elbows out near the waist.' statement.

Stance-wise, I'm still wondering why you're supposed to be feeling pain in your knees and legs? I'm at a loss to understand why you'd go so low in your stance, and how you manage to get your knees a fist apart when you're supposed to be moving forward with your knees, not in. Perhaps someone would be kind enough to explain this for me without having to start another thread?


Their high stance looks likle someone who is just standing up.
Take a look at TST on the conference cd doing SLT - if he looks like he's just standing up and not stable as a rock, then maybe I need glasses.

I don't know, maybe the school I attend is the exception rather than the rule, but I highly doubt it. The local WSL/Barry Lee school doesn't go 'low' in their stance (from what I've seen), either.

[yuanfen]

Again, I want to remind everyone that this post is just to see why people think he's good. It's not to talk down TST...i really lilke the guy.
((Differences in word choices on "guy"-I would have used
TST sifu or something like that.))

My statements are based on 3 months training with his 20 year student Ma Kee Fei and 3 visits to his school. During those three months, it was pretty much one on one because the class he teaches at the VTAA is in the daytime.

((One on one with Ma or TST sifu? Curious))


Again, i'm not saying that I am qualified to judge his wing chun. This post is just out of plain interest to see what others would say.

During my training with Ma, he told me about their theory and how it compares to others. He also told me a few great stories from back in the days.

((It might be helpful to discuss the major elements of TST's
theory in a constructive open way? What key points did you note?))

The stance looks like they are just standing up, with the knees slightly bent. (Just so that they are not locked) To me, a low stance is where the knees are a fist apart. Their high stance looks likle someone who is just standing up.

(("Look like" can be misleading. There is a wide variation in the
"looks" of many stances among Ip Man's students. A stance is for development of key things. The apprearance is less important than what is really going on and the results. Was Ma balanced...
was his stance able to handle some pressure?))

[Miles Teg]

Rill - hope this helps

He means in comparison to other W.C styles. I have also noticed that a lot of non TST lineages keep their elbows quite close to the center, in extreme case with the elbow in front of the solo plexus, right in the center.

I think the stance is rooted and stable, but I have also noticed it is not as low as others.



Stance-wise, I'm still wondering why you're supposed to be feeling pain in your knees and legs? I'm at a loss to understand why you'd go so low in your stance, and how you manage to get your knees a fist apart when you're supposed to be moving forward with your knees, not in. Perhaps someone would be kind enough to explain this for me without having to start another thread?

According to Red5angel and other Ken Chung lineage students on this forum, they keep there stance low and it is very uncomfortable for in the beginner stages. Many other lineages have a very low stance as well. I think this is to strengthen the legs and have a low center of gravity to make there stance stronger. But like you I don't train this way.

[S.Teebas]

I would just like to experiment here because the way he does wing chun tends to break the typical wc rules.

Only the rules as you know them right now. Most of the time the 'Rules' change as learn more (from your point of view anyway). And i think TST is in a better position than you are to say what the WC rules are or are not.


They do not hold their elbows at the center.

Sometimes we do.


They prefer the elbows out near the waist

Nope. The height varies from opponent to opponent. Against a tall guy... needs structure different to against a small guy.


They feel that having the elbow at the center tenses the chest/shoulder area.

Dont advicate use of tension (for many reasons), if you can get it there without tension (and the situation dictates u need to be there) then great.


When doing the hand sets, their "other" hand is not pulled all way the way back but rather just held up near the chest.

Nope. We are taught to have the hand back all the way. But again we dont avdocate tension, the reason u saw people with hands where u saw them is becasue they might be only able to go back that far before the muscles tence up. Whats the point of forcing it back - segments ur body upon inpact if tension's there.


Other methods say that if you pull the hand (in a fist) all the way back, then you are stretching and loosing that muscle. (deltoid?)

My opinion is stretching and doing the form are 2 different things.


Their stance is really high to a point where there is hardly any physical pain on the legs or knees.

Great!...unless pain is your game.


Their rolling in chi sau is at a fast pace

Nope, can be at any pace (often train slowely). Usually the people less exposed to TST method sets the pace..we just roll and let u do the work. :)


There are no little 1 second pauses...looks sloopy and looks like they are not really listening,feeling with their hands.

Whats a little 1 second pause for?

Look like..... I think someone already mention that looks arent everything. Besides what ive been taught is Very internal, ie you cant see whats going on inside!

[Mr Punch]

This man asked this potentially ill-mannered question in one of the most polite ways I've seen a delicate question asked on this board. And he got jumped on very rudely! Now be good little boys and answer his ****ing question!! If you think he has some facts wrong EXPLAIN, don't CRITICISE.

[Mr Punch]

Thank you for the interesting question. These are interesting differences which crop up quite a lot. I don't practice TST style so I don't know if your observations are correct, but I would hazard a guess, based on my own (slight) training experience and learning:

1) My first sifu recommended training in two of the myriad useful ways of training out there:

a) Elbows in to get the right feeling of protecting the centreline, and to train the muscles used in striking. This way also gets you used to relaxing in a unnatural and difficult position, making it easier to relax in the fighting position (elbow slightly further out). As a beginner he taught me only elbows in.
b) Elbows (slightly more) out for more relaxation and flow. This way is better and more natural for fighting, as it enables you to use your elbow position for simultaneous prevention of outside-gate or centreline attacks more effectively. For example, if you lean into a hook and punch the face directly your elbow will deflect most of the force from the hook, unless it's an overhand from a significantly larger person. Scary timing, but effective (you'll probably still get punched!). It's nice to practice elbows out, but I tend to find that if you practice elbows in your elbows tend to stray outwards under pressure anyway.

2) I would say same as above really: Practise low, fight high. But, practising high has the advantage of being more 'real' if you are assuming that in a fight you'll get higher anyway and this will significantly change your rooting. Incidentally, your energy in even your lowest stance should NEVER be in your knees (joints) but in the muscles above, otherwise you'll cause some serious damage to your knees. I found this out the easy way: my knees were a bit shot from bad aiki practice years ago, so I had to use the muscles, and now the joints have eased up no end!! With the added bonus that my sifu said my stance is good!:D

3) There are many ways of doing chi sau. Sometimes fast and flowing is just as 'feely' as slow. Depends on how good your and your partners' relaxation is.

BTW, I've practised with 20 year students whose style doesn't look much like their masters. Don't forget that after a few years you tend to make the style your own, plus some teachers don't agree with some of their masters' methods, so will change them when teaching in a different place.

[Rill]

This man asked this potentially ill-mannered question in one of the most polite ways I've seen a delicate question asked on this board. And he got jumped on very rudely!
Rude? Sheesh, this is tame. But consider this..

Let's say you drive a blue BMW. You're talking to a friend on the phone one day who says 'I hear you have a red BMW - I saw a red BMW once, the gears don't work the same as other cars'. You're confused - are there red BMW's out there that differ to yours because of the colour, are these red BMW's with custom mod's, a different model, or does your friend just not know what he's talking about? Why does he think you have a red BMW when he's never even seen it? So you ask him where he saw the BMW and what the gears were like because you're just plain confused...

No-one's been rude, but perhaps it's an unintentional side effect that some of us will sound disturbed by being told we have red BMW's when we know for a fact that we've been driving a blue one for years, and the gears work the same as any other car.

[kungfu cowboy]

Their stance is really high to a point where there is hardly any physical pain on the legs or knees.

Great!...unless pain is your game.

Its not about pain caused by an anatomically incorrect position, but rather the discomfort of over-exertion of muscle in a good anatomically correct stance. There should never be true pain. (That's bad). And then off of this building the muscle and other necessary structure needed to comfortably endure it.

This different structure changes the mechanics that as far as my personal experience goes, seem to increase stability, fluidity, mobility, fertility, and a particular method of power generation and expression that requires a stable base.

I can see it working at any height really, but for me, I have noticed that lower seems better. And the little I know about physics seems to imply that the lower the center of gravity, the better. But the only way to know anything for sure is to give it a sincere try.

[urban tea]

S. TEEBas,

What Ma has taught and explained to me is what TST is teaching today. He has said that TST has evolved his wc in a major way in the last 10 years. I have mentioned this before. Before (10+ years ago) the TST method was more similar to others and wasn't so "unique" in it's own way.

Today , the LIM LEk is expalined and understood by his students better and he has modified a few things that he feels is right.

The elbow at the waist, the "other" hand held near the armpit w/ elbow down and such are what he teaches TODAY and in the last 10 years.

I do appreciate you sharing what you have learned but I feel that it is TST"s old wing chun and that is what Jim Fung learned as well. There is a small group of Jim Fung students who practice more on their own, in this new LIm Lek method.

Anyone else out there with...anything to say? I knew that when I posted this, I would get criticism and that is fine.

BTW, TST has a new DVD coming out in 1-2 months. It will have everything that he teaches in wc. The 3 hand sets, weapons and dummy. I will update you guys when it does come out. Hopefully it's all region!

[Mr Punch]

Maybe I was being a bit sensitive (shurely shome mishtake!?)! 'Sides, didn't notice you are an Ozzie! You're right: 'hogswash' is nothing!

[CanadianBadAss]

With the way you put it, it seems to me that rules would be broken either way.
Elbows out rules are broken, elbows in (muscles become tensed), and assuming that being relaxed is one of your rules, another one is broken.
I guess that’s one point where TST lineage and the one your point of view comes from differ. You guys are willing to sacrifice your relaxedness (and in turn, your whole structure) to be on the center. We do the opposite and sacrifice(if you can call it that, cause really, its not that big of a loss) being exactly on the center line.
And the same thing applies to the stance, it's not that we are taught to have a high stance, but have it where ever it's comfortable and where your legs can be relaxed(if your legs aren’t relaxed you'll never be rooted).

“I'd like to start this topic on why you guys think Tsui Seung Tin is good.”
Because he’s an old skinny Chinese guy who can throw around huge body builder type WC players who are using all their muscle.

[kungfu cowboy]

Well, that's dash cunning of him!:p

[S.Teebas]

I do appreciate you sharing what you have learned but I feel that it is TST"s old wing chun and that is what Jim Fung learned as well. There is a small group of Jim Fung students who practice more on their own, in this new LIm Lek method.

Ok... but im not learning off Jim Fung.

[CanadianBadAss]

Teebes, I think he’s trying to say you're copy of TST wing chun is obsolete. You have to upgrade to the new version.

[CanadianBadAss]

I say tell your sifu about this and have her(it's Susan right?) tell urban teas sifu about how disrespectfull his students being and have him ***** slaped.

[S.Teebas]

yeah,..maybe i will.....maybe i will!! ;) ;) ;)

[urban tea]

disrespectful?

You're just uptight. I'm just saying that everyone who learned from TST 10 years or more ago never learned what his wc has truly evolved to today.

BUT - gettting back to the topic...I'll wait for anyone who has something else to say.

As far as the elbow at the center or the side, MA can hit people on the side because many other lineages hold the elbow at center and think every attacks comes from the center.

[Miles Teg]

You're just uptight. I'm just saying that everyone who learned from TST 10 years or more ago never learned what his wc has truly evolved to today.

Ohhhhhh, if thats all your saying I guess its ok :confused: :mad:


I'm sorry but, I can't see how it can be all that differrent. My sifu, went to train with TST for a month, and he said there is no difference how they train over there (except they do it for longer and on more days). Jim Fung probably learnt the same way as everybody else, but from what I hear his teaching method is quite different. Thats not because he learnt differently thats because made changes in order to be able to teach very large groups of people in different branches all over the place. From what I hear the mans skill is amazing and it would be if you had trained with TST for 30 years.

From what I hear most tst lineages around the world train pretty much the same. If anyone has anything to add to the list I would be interested:

*The forms
*Dan chi sao
*Chi sao
*Lop sau drill
*Punching with a parner (punching each others arms)

[urban tea]

They don't practice the Lap Sau drill anymore. The curriculum if you were to join today would be :

1. 8 months to a year of SLT. No don chi at this time. Just standing there.

Then you move on to don chi sau. After this stage you learn 4 two person drills then move onto chi sau.

One of these days I will try to type out the 4 drills.

[S.Teebas]

Urban Tea...

Perhaps you could outline a few of the major, or more prominent differences between the 'old' verson of TST's teachings and the 'new'?

Funny thing is i've apparantly trained in the 'old' and 'new' approaces, although the approach (empahsis on certaint things) may be different the material is essientialy the same.

[urban tea]

I would say the new method today focuses a lot more on LIM LEk and less on hand techniques. What he's teaching today is how your opponent can't move your hands away so there's not as much need for hand techniques.

To start off as an example, a student is told to do a tan sau. He has to totally relax his body. Then imagine his shoulder falling into his elbow. After that imagine three points (for now) connecting to the opponents chest. The wrist, elbow and shoulder. After this is done, using only your mind, he has to "go get it." He cannot think of whether he shoudl move his wrist first, elbow first or forearm. If he thinks of how to move, the lim lek won't work and he'll probably collapse his structure.

They are told to just move the arm.

Example : There is a 5 dollar bill on the table. Your hand just moves to get it without thinking. Now the LIM LEk can come out. Eventally students are told to imagine the points of both wrists, shoulders, elbows, feet, knee and the chest to connect to the opponents center. They also add a lot of forward pressure to their chi sau. If they throw up a bong sau, they are taught to imagine those points pointing to their bong sau elbow.


They don't do any of the single man stepping drills. They don't do the lap sau drill or the turning stance with straight punch or any of that. TST says , "There are no right movements and no wrong movements because at sometime in chi sau, you will use that position."

Their elbows are at the side because they feel that not all attacks come from the center. People criticize that if the elbow is not at the center then you can get hit easily. On their don chi sau, the elbow is at the side but they put forward pressure so they can feel when you go in.

What I like about the tst method is there focus on relaxation. Their hands are heavy because they "give them to you."

If you sit at the dinner table and hold up your hand one inch off the table vs. just placing it down on the table RESTING.

That is their chi sau. They rest their hands on yours and you have to hold them up. That combined with their LIM LEK results in some very heavy hands, but not stiff or hard. Usually peple who chi sau with their students say they are using force or strength becaue they can't move their hands away. (tst hands)

[CLOUD ONE]

Urban Tea- They rest their hands on yours and you have to hold them up.

I don't agree with that statement due to the fact that if it is resting then if someone rest there hands on yours all you have to do is drop your hands and thiers drop too!!!

If done correctly once you drop your hands thier hands spring forward not down!!! This is not a pushing force.

The relaxness of the structure gives you the power of this spring effect. That is why they practice SLT for a long time before dan chi sau. This is cultivated.

[CanadianBadAss]

"They rest their hands on yours and you have to hold them up. That combined with their LIM LEK results in some very heavy hands, but not stiff or hard. " Urban Tea

If you understand the word LIM LEK (not that I do completly) , you'll relize he's saying pretty much the same thing you are.

[urban tea]

I meant to say that when they rest their hands on you, they also add forward pressure. If your hands drop they would hit you.

The first step is to be so relaxed that your hands will drop if the opponents hands drop. After that the student adds forward pressure.

One of the excercises that they teach before chi sau is one that teaches Lut Sao Jek Chong. During chi sau rolling, the "teacher" suddenly takes his hand away.

The student's fok sau is on the "teacher's" tan sau. The teacher would take away his tan sau (pull back) and the student is supposed to feel that and punch him at the center.

This is also done with the student's tan sau with the teacher's fok sau. The teacher would pull back the tan sau and the student is taught to feel that and punch to the center.

They alternate hands and practice this.

[yuanfen]

Can someone in the TST line in their own words share their understanding of lim lek- not just dictionary definition- operational meanings if possible?

[CLOUD ONE]

Sorry I can't explain it in words. I think it is better felt than explained in words.

The dan chi sau excersise starts with one person with a fuk sau moving forward with lim lik. The other practioner has a tan sau moving forward with lim lik. At a certain point there is a eqaul force which makes the arms jam and seem stationary!!! This is not the case cos internally you are still using lim lik. It feels like the opponent has an offensive/deffensive contact with you, and vice versa.

Now if we go further where the person doing tan sau suddenly increases his force to punch, the person doing fuk sau would either draw(giude) the punch down, this is also done with lim lik.

The way you enhance this lim lik is through relaxed ma bo. The 'three prayers to Buddah' movement is done with this lim lik, where the movement out is at one speed ie no tension anywhere,
the movement back is also at the same speed.
If you have a chance try chi sau with someone from TST.

[yuanfen]

I wanted to see whether there is anything conceptually distinct
in speaking of lim lek by TST students. I have done chi sao with TST.

[kj]

Originally posted by yuanfen
I wanted to see whether there is anything conceptually distinct
in speaking of lim lek by TST students. I have done chi sao with TST.

Hi Joy. Obviously I cannot speak for the students of TST. As of yet, I have not even had the privilege to touch hands with anyone from TST's groups. In that light, I hope you don't mind my second hand interjections.

As you may know, Ken Chung is rather close with TST, visiting with some regularity. Based on my conversations with Ken, fellow students, and also what I have read in TST's book, I tend to think their underlying concept of nim lik is much like ours.

The biggest difference appears, to me, to be a significant degree of overt emphasis on nim lik in TST's teachings. From what I have gleaned thus far, the essence of it still lies somewhere in the murky realm of things like "intention" and "yi" rather than some new or unique concept.

[Note: I confess that, not being heavily immersed in TCM, qi theory and the like, I tend to be comfortable with "general" ideas regarding this sort of thing, rather than pik the nits and nuances of li, yi, qi and so on. Therefore, anyone who is highly knowledgeable in such areas will be totally justified to disregard my comments or opinions on the matter, LOL.]

I realize that our training approach [referring to what we have learned thanks to Leung Sheung, Ken, et al] differs in some respects from those in the TST line. Still, and FWIW, the more telling descriptions of nim lik thus far in this forum, combined with my gleanings from elsewhere, seem wholly consistent with our practice. This despite the fact that the term "nim/lim lik" tends to be a less frequent colloquialism for us.

Like you and others, I too would be interested in greater insights and perspectives from the TST students, in addition to any corrections I may be due. :)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[yuanfen]

kj sez:From what I have gleaned thus far, the essence of it still lies somewhere in the murky realm of things like "intention" and "yi" rather than some new or unique concept
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks kj. For sure. An important aspect of lots of good martial arts-
provided the right foundations are there. Intentionality is a mysterious thing to some engineers<g>

[kj]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Intentionality is a mysterious thing to some engineers<g>

LOL. I'm learning to deal with it. :D
- kj

[CLOUD ONE]

yuanfen- 'I have done chi sao with TST'

What was the outcome could you read his intention or did he read your intention?
Who was more relaxed?
What did you get from this?

Kj- how do you practice this lim lik in your school?

[yuanfen]

Re:TST- non competitive sensing poon sao in two different cities.
No competitive "results". He was balanced and smooth.I knew where he was- very likely ditto for him. He didnt really speak English at the time. A real gentleman. Later-
It was great to see- Wong Shon Leung, TST and Jason Lau do
slt together in Houston. It was quite a gathering- Augustine Fong, Kenneth Chung, Hawkins Cheung, Leung Ting and several other wc notables were there. I dont remember whether it was that occasion or the next year that Wang Kiu was briefly there.

[CanadianBadAss]

This is what TST discribes as nim lik, but you would be better off reading the whole article Hidden power of SLT (http://www.tstvingtsun.bc.ca/HiddenPowerOfSNT_remix.html) to understand what he's saying.

"1. Nim Lik (force of idea/intent): it stabilizes all Ving Tsun movements to form a springy and dynamic combination of body structures. It makes Ving Tsun body structure able to sustain great pressure and produce rebound energy. Although there are common terms such as nim lik, qigong, noigong or supernatural abilities that are being perceived as some kind of unusual power, here I would only illustrate the concept behind nim lik (force of idea/intent). Nim lik is the power of a highly focused mind. It helps one bring forth chi flow into every part of the body. Everyone should have this kind of power. However, without training, it is very difficult to focus thoughts. Siu Nim Tau is a great tool to invoke mind focus power. If properly practiced, one can deliver this kind of power at will in every instance. The mind can stay focused even when the structure is adjusting or moving at high speed. So to achieve nim lik is the goal of Siu Nim Tau."

[kj]

Originally posted by CLOUD ONE
Kj- how do you practice this lim lik in your school?

Like that's a simple question .....:eek:

Perhaps the most "accurate" answer is what Yuanfen already said: intentionality. To maintain accuracy with more words would probably require a tome, or several.

Plus ... I'm no expert. Caveat emptor. ;)

Against my better judgment [note to self ... fix that!], I'll attempt to offer some clues on my current perception of this "little idea" and how we [me and mine] may utilize it.

Assuming I have some "intent" it may be physically expressed. The ideal expression would be in the appropriate manner, at appropriate times of course.

Sometimes, intentionality (expressive of intent) may be present, but without observable physical manifestation. Whether observable or not, the physiological expressiveness is, IMHO, nim lik ... or "idea force" ... force resulting from an idea. Force does not always translate directly or immediately into movement, but it can.

In its observable manifestation, it is way of "doing" without "trying" or at least without undue effort. In a sense, and IMHE of course. Eventually, we'd like to perform with as little effort and as little conscious thought as possible. At least that's my hypothesis. ;) :)

Perhaps some illustrations of [my idea of] intentionality in practice may serve:

Example 1: A non-Wing Chun illustration. There is a game ladies traditionally play, popular at baby-showers. They use a needle with a length of thread in it. Then one of the ladies will take the thread between forefinger and thumb, and suspend the needle over the wrist of the pregnant lady. Everyone remains as still as possible. The theory is that eventually the needle will begin to swing of its own volition, back and forth if the baby is male, round in circles if the baby is female. Inevitably, the needle begins to move, seemingly on its own.

Naturally, the needle cannot really do anything of its own volition. The key, is the thought in the mind of the person holding the thread, which manifests in an almost imperceptible physical response which is then transmitted and amplified through the thread. If you wonder why the ladies have been playing it for decades, well they find it fun, and also the odds are almost good enough to suspend disbelief ... at least 50/50. It's a similar thing if you've ever played with a Ouija board. [Apologies to those who feel I'm a heretic.]

Example 2: A Wing Chun illustration. The slow beginning section of the first set provides rich opportunity for connecting the "idea" with expression through the body. The "intent" is the catalyst, and at least in a visualization sense, serves as the primary driver of the "intentionality" which expresses itself physiologically and subsequently in the slow tan, wu and fook movements. I am not so much "trying" to move or force my arm, as "allowing" it to follow my idea. I think this is both esoteric and complicated enough, so will leave it at that.

Example 3: In chi sau (pick a format ... dan chi, poon sau, etc.). We are very much concerned with "jiang dai lik" or "under elbow energy" when in contact with the partner/opponent.

Urban Tea described one facet of this idea via imagining the shoulder to sink into the elbow. I wish for my elbow to be very "heavy" and substantial, yet also to have my "intent" ever trained to my opponent's center. My "intent" is already in the right place, always on, always seeking the precise area of control. As mentioned previously, my fook sau will not "fall" if the partner removes his/her tan sau. At least it will "remain" and if I properly allow it, it will fill the empty space and accurately hit my partner/opponent.

When opportunity presents itself, the "intent" manifests into action, without the need to change thought or strategy. Among other things, it's an energy and time saving device. Mind and body are already together before action occurs.

"Intentionality" already has the body trained on and prepared to follow the thought through more dynamic action. Before the action fully manifests, my opponent may or may not "feel" my intentionality, depending on the amount of "pressure" we mutually allow, how sensitive he/she is, etc.

I do think that trying too hard, or being too greedy, will defeat intentionality inasmuch as physical effort will displace thought effort. Perhaps more pragmatically stated ... allowing intention and mechanical advantage to prevail rather than our instinct for brute strength.

Intent and intentionality are integral and interdependent to other aspects of practice. It becomes, I believe, a sort of thought without conscious thought, driving our actions. To me, this seems especially relevant for those of us practicing in ways that rely more on position and sensitivity and less on strength and athletic attributes.

Our purpose of intent/intentionality in Wing Chun practice is fighting application ... we Wing Chunners are not a frivolous lot after all. ;) Yet it seems to me that a more philosophical aspect - that of more fully connecting mind and body - is an inherent benefit of practice as well. At least that is another of my hypothesis, LOL.

So, back to your question ... how do we practice nim lik? Siu Nim Tau.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[S.Teebas]

Can someone in the TST line in their own words share their understanding of lim lek- not just dictionary definition- operational meanings if possible?

I think the definition CBA gave of TST quote is the best/most accurate description i think you'll get.

But if u want to know how its operational meaning, from a students view point id say it all stems from what TST said by:

"Nim lik is the power of a highly focused mind. "

Becasue during training when my teacher corrects me to a point i can feel it. The Target becomes VERY clear. Actually you almost clear you mind of all things except where you want to go. You wont find your hands wondering or being affected in by the opponent. Almost as if they have a mind of their own, to a new degree where you arnt actully sure what your body has done. I couldnt believe this when i first walked into my school to do chi sau; and one of the senior guys is moving me all around the room with pivoting and arm movments that were unfarmiliar to myself at the time, i would ask him "How did you know to pivot then?" and he says... "Did i pivot?" Im thinking "yeah right!". But it seems to allow your body to react on its own..but to me, it seems to a higher degree than i knew before practicing the focusing that i currenlty am learning.

Ontop of the directional focus; you learn to keep you body structure extremely strong (not in a muscular sence). It absorbs the incoming force where you dont actually feel the force inside ur body..just it passing through (holding nothing). You can achieve it by TOTAL relaxtion..which allows you the ability to chi-sau for many many hours and not get tired. Someone already related it to being akin to the movement of simply picking up a $5 note. ITs like the only effort required is the actual thought (intent) that you want to do somthing... although you dont even really think about it . (forgive me if these things im saying seem a bit contracictary..its a abstract concept for me at the moment im still working on stabilising)

Now that i think about it, thew Wc im learning is totally baised around the idea of nim lik and theres no way i could do justice to the actually performance ...or its real substance over the internet. So much could be written on it, due to the fact that its all interrelated. ie focusing help the structure, structure helps the focusing, proper structure helps realisation of center, centre is related to intent, intent related to focusing, and the more things you have all working in symbiotic relationship. (each feeding of each other, yet strenghtening it in totality)

And becasue its all related to each other i guess thats why its called the simple idea. It actually one thing your working on...building it up (yet simplifying at the same time). One thing I notice about Wc is how its full of opposites.

[kungfu cowboy]

how do you guys get that, for example : originally kj wrote: thing going on in this space?! Anyway:

Yet it seems to me that a more philosophical aspect - that of more fully connecting mind and body - is an inherent benefit of practice as well.


I think this is an interesting phenomena. How learning particular skills that require certain parameters of cognitive activity can alter brain function to the point that seemingly new and entirely unrelated behaviors and/or manners of thinking about reality are created or understood.

And they usually feel so right, like you are glimpsing the truth of the universe.

I can honestly say, I never got this reaction from trying to solve the Rubick's cube!:p

[kj]

Originally posted by S. Teebas
One thing I notice about Wc is how its full of opposites.

Yes.

Paradox and balance. Fun stuff.

Not to mention altered brain function. Those 2-5 minute SNT folks don't know what they're missing ... woo hoo! ;) LOL@KFC. :D

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[urban tea]

An interesting thing is when I was relearning SLT with MA he would tell me to wait for the "heat"

When you play SLT slow, in the beginning stages, you will feel that heating sensation in the hands.

Before I would do my tan sau, MA would have me put the hands to my side. (Like a regular person standing up, hands down)

He would tell me to think about being relaxed and having my whole arm down and empty. He said that when I feel my hand a little heavier and some heat, I should bring it up near my waist to begin putting out my tan sau.

When putting out the tan sau, he tells me to just place it there and don't move it yet. If the heat is still there, then I can progress and move the tan out. If at any point, the heat is lost, I must stop there and keep thinking relaxed and wait for this heat to come back. He said that the entire form, especially the first section should have this heating sensation.

ALso while some other people tend to look around or talk during SLT, MA says they concentrate their intent forward. During the tan sau they are taught to imagine the three points (wrist, elbow, shoulder) pointing forward. Later, as i said before, imagine all the points in the body shooting forward. Their eyes are sharp, not lazy.

After awhile, the heating sentation is not just in the hands, it's in the entire arm. There is something "moving" back and forth. The rest of the body will feel sunken in, similar to the melting that the LS line talks about as well.

Now my question is that TST's horse is standing straight up but they stil have that melting ROOT. LS's line also has the melting root but their horse is deep. What benefit does one have over the other!!

[CLOUD ONE]

I don't know anything in the LS line, but do they open their stance the same as TST in SLT?

The TST stance is pigeon toe, how about LS line is that more parallel?

Yuanfen it was a pity that you didn't experience more when chi sauing with TST. If you were competetive then you might have seen what level you were or TST skill.
Maybe there is still time!!!

What difference does it make to one's Chi sau if you can speak English or not?
In Augustine Fong's tapes he does not mention anything about 'Nim Lik' or the springiness. maybe he teaches it differently in a class than in video?

Kj- There are ways to test if you have this 'Nim Lik'
Just say you do a tan sau, the teacher would hold your wrist whilst you are moving it out. now if the teacher increases his hold what would the outcome be for you?

[yuanfen]

Yuanfen it was a pity that you didn't experience more when chi sauing with TST. If you were competetive then you might have seen what level you were or TST skill.

((You dont have to be competitive in poon sao- to understand what is going on if you know what to look for. Chi sao is non verbal communication.))

Maybe there is still time!!!

((Time flies-for all))

What difference does it make to one's Chi sau if you can speak English or not?

((None in chi sao. Much if you want to talk principles in detail))

In Augustine Fong's tapes he does not mention anything about 'Nim Lik' or the springiness.

((He doesnt have to)))

maybe he teaches it differently in a class than in video?

((A video is just a passing glance in this case from the 80s. on reality. I did not and do not learn much wing chun from videos.
Can be check points if you know what to look for. Not if you dont.
Nim lik and springiness as described on KFO and its sensed referrents are not the property of any one line. Good wing chun is good wing chun))) yuanfen

[Miles Teg]

Urban Tea
Well Red5angel seems to think that if the stance is not deep there is no root, and then people from other lineages often argue it doesn't have to be deep to have a good root.

Just a thought regarding Ken Chung W.C vs TST W.C and how they both have a root but different approach to developing it and holding their stance:
Could it be that a deep stance is what is required to develop a good root when you practice 100/0 weight distribution like in Leng Sheng lineages, but a higher stance is possible when you use a 50/50 weight sidtribution, like in TST lineage.

Just a thought I had. It may be as simple as that.

BTW: All I know about Ken Chung W.C is what I read on the forums, there are no branches of his in my country. From what I can gather there is a strong focus on rooting, and I know they use 100/0 weight distribution, and thats all I know.

[CLOUD ONE]

Miles- what is the difference between 100/0 and 50/50 in SLT?

'chi sau is non verbal communication'-yuanfen

you can't be a very good listner if you have to 'talk principles in detail' or were you doing the talking in chi sau with tst?

Although Chi sau is different to 'gong sau' maybe you should have gong sau with TST instead to get those finer details:D

Ahh thanks for clarifying, those tapes are no substitute for a teacher.
nim lik is the property to one line TSt. Since you have a different word for this lim lik. your web site doesn't show it, on your sifu's videos they don't show it. So does A Fong teach it differently in class than his videos?

It would be more beneficial to you if you learn't cantonese than W.C then you might get the finer details:D :D :D

[Miles Teg]

No difference in SNT obviously
But if you are trained to move around using 100/0 weight distribution I suspect one may need stronger legs as there is more weight placed on the one leg, therefore an emphasis on a deeper stance to strengthen the legs even in SNT.

I don't know much about Ken Chung, but in the Ling Ting style that I used to practice there was a lot of emphasis placed on strengthing the legs because all our weight had to be on one of them all the time.

Anyway it was just a thoery I thought of the other day to explain the need for deep stances. I'm not saying that 100/0 is wrong or you can't root with it as I know that Taichi people who are renound for having an amazing connection to the ground all train 100/0.

[kj]

Originally posted by CLOUD ONE
Kj- There are ways to test if you have this 'Nim Lik'
Just say you do a tan sau, the teacher would hold your wrist whilst you are moving it out. now if the teacher increases his hold what would the outcome be for you?

He's never done this that I recall, so I don't know. I don't know what outcome would be a determination of nim lik versus no nim lik. So I have no basis for interpreting the results even if I asked him to perform such an experiment.

What do you believe should occur during and as a result of such an experiment?

I also don't understand the mechanics of the experiment well enough in general to reasonably ask my teacher or someone else to play it. I wouldn't be able to answer the following types of questions, as examples:

Is there any pressure applied by the gripper in any direction, or merely a clenching around the wrist and neutral or soft otherwise?

Is the teacher or other gripper using muscular tension in the arms or body as a result of the tightening, or does the applier's arm remain soft?

Is the gripper's elbow extended or bent?

In what direction is the teacher or gripper standing and facing?

Are they applying some Wing Chun of their own when applying the grip, or just gripping as any "normal" person would do?

Would the outcome of the experiment differ if the teacher or another of high skill held the wrist versus someone relatively unskilled?

Would the outcome be different if the gripper was huge and strong and the nim lik'er tiny and physically weak, or vice versa?

Does it require a student with good or normal "qi flow?" If the student has illness or other condition blocking flow, will the result be the same?

Is the manifestation of "nim lik" something that gets switched on or off, or does one "develop" it over time, such that one might express a little or a lot of it?

As you can see, I don't sufficiently understand the experiment, and am loath to assume much.

As mentioned before, we don't have the same overt or frequent emphasis on nim lik as it appears TST does with his students. I never heard the term before reading it in TST's writings, and only learned later on that Ip Man also used the term from time to time; Leung Sheung was familiar with it, as Lok Yiu and others would be.

A large proportion of our time is spent on precise mechanics of motion. While not an altogether separate thing, it does seem to be a different "facet" of training emphasis. In that light, it won't surprise me a bit if the outcome of a the nim lik gripping scenario were a bit different even with a controlled experiment.

FWIW we do play a wrist gripping experiment, where our hands "seem" trapped by my teacher or someone else gripping the wrists. However, it is rather the gripper who becomes threatened by the trapped hands, and potentially in big trouble if they release. Again, I am not inclined to make assumptions, but does this have any remote correlation to the experiment you describe? If so, my apologies for such a long and detailed post.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[yuanfen]

you can't be a very good listner if you have to 'talk principles in detail' or were you doing the talking in chi sau with tst?(cloud one)

(("Have to?" I didn't say that I have to. Listening with hands was/is just fine for chi sao with people from other lines. How good a listener? KFO discussions cant tell unless you are from Minneapolis))))(yuanfen)

Although Chi sau is different to 'gong sau' maybe you should have gong sau with TST instead to get those finer details

((ha ha- did I miss some?))

Ahh thanks for clarifying, those tapes are no substitute for a teacher.

((sure))

nim lik is the property to one line TSt.

((As a verbal label. You can even copyright a label))

Since you have a different word for this lim lik. your web site doesn't show it, on your sifu's videos they don't show it. So does A Fong teach it differently in class than his videos?

((Differently? From what? The way nim lik has been described here and in writing and feeling TST...its not unique to his lineage.
Good things are common to many lineages without using the same word-or using any word necessarily.Again, good wing chun is good wing chun, lineage games notwithstanding)) yuanfen

It would be more beneficial to you if you learn't cantonese than W.C then you might get the finer details

((Predictable-Pontificating? And who are you to give me that advice? Millions of people speak Cantonese-most of the ones I have met dont have a clue about wing chun . I seem to have come along fairly well without knowing Cantonese or going to Minneapolis or going to your place-it wasnt on my tour. Lets get back to the discussions on wing chun and let the little lineage digs be.
Cheers and bye.))yuanfen

[yuanfen]

I don't know much about Ken Chung, but in the Ling Ting style that I used to practice there was a lot of emphasis placed on strengthing the legs because all our weight had to be on one of them all the time.

((Not surprising-because the initial Leung Ting foundations came frpm the LS line))

Anyway it was just a thoery I thought of the other day to explain the need for deep stances. I'm not saying that 100/0 is wrong or you can't root with it as I know that Taichi people who are renound for having an amazing connection to the ground all train 100/0.

((Yes...re taichi. But the taichi structural principles are different.
Good wing chun can root as much as taichi-specially when needed..

100/0, 50/50... doesnt guarantee rooting...knowing what structure you are using and adjustments you are makingcan))

[kj]

Originally posted by Miles Teg
No difference in SNT obviously
But if you are trained to move around using 100/0 weight distribution I suspect one may need stronger legs as there is more weight placed on the one leg, therefore an emphasis on a deeper stance to strengthen the legs even in SNT.

Yes, this is obviously a factor. Proficiency, stamina, and comfort on the back leg requires a certain emphasis.

The lower stance also builds capacity for increasing and sustaining a lower center of gravity and wider functional range (high to low).

Additionally, the lower stance seems to "facilitate" a particular body alignment and internal connection; this alignment is very important for us in many respects, including "lik choong day hay" (energy derived from the ground).

The ability to achieve this alignment and connection without sinking so low does seem to develop and improve over time. However, the lower stance does seem to maximize it, even for those who are very advanced. That is to say, they may not need to assume the lowered position all the time, but still use it if and when necessary, and continue training to maintain it.

Nothing but a few thoughts on the same stuff others have described and discussed in more detail elsewhere. So just trying to connect some of the same dots in context of this particular thread.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[CLOUD ONE]

Your correct yuan fen the proof is in the pudding all this labelling and talk over the internet is............

Go and see for yourself in Minneapolis?

Yes I agree millions of people speak cantonese and don't have a clue about W.C, although millions of people speak English and they do?

If you need to defend your lineage then so be it.
Judgement can not be witheld. or can it?
Cya- Cloud

Kj- all your examples are sound!!!

Have you heard of 'Loy Lau, Hui Shung, Lut Sau Jik Chung''

It is the jik chung to look for in the excersise.
In SLT you infuse the body with the mind (precise mechanics of motion)?
Where or what is the spirit?

[kj]

Originally posted by CLOUD ONE
Have you heard of 'Loy Lau, Hui Shung, Lut Sau Jik Chung''

Yes, this is precisely the "threat" in my final example. I believe we are on the same page now. Thank you for clarifying.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[yuanfen]

Your correct yuan fen the proof is in the pudding all this labelling and talk over the internet is............

((For sure))

Go and see for yourself in Minneapolis?

((Important things first. Besides the mole hill came to Mohammed))

Yes I agree millions of people speak cantonese and don't have a clue about W.C, although millions of people speak English and they do?

((Non sequiturs will get you-nowhere))

If you need to defend your lineage then so be it.

((Your words. Not mine-except for expectation of civility- I dont need to defnd my lineage))

Judgement can not be witheld. or can it?

((Judgement of anonymous trollers dont mean much))

Cya- Cloud

Bye- Yuanfen

[urban tea]

Redangel is wrong. No hard feelings. Your horse does not have to be low to ROOT.

You just have to have the idea of being relaxed. Hsing yi, tai chi, pa kua stances are not very low but they root as well.

HECK- you can feel rooting by just standing up right now! Stand up and put your arms at the side. Think relaxed and pay attention to any feelings your body may have. Bend your knees a little bit just so they are not locked. If they are locked, that cuts off the chi and you won't root!

They you will feel like your feet are sinking into the carpet or ground in about 5 minutes!

I wonder about the stance question...about kenneth's vs TST's. I respect Ken's wing chun though, good stuff.

WHen I visited TST's school I ever heard him say, "We don't have to train our horse, just think relaxed."

I would say the only way your horse will not root is if your mind is not relaxed. I see some people do SLT likel mad men and going through the last 2 sections punching with POWER and their stances shakes all over.

If you do that, no root.

Augustine Fong does not teach Lim Lek. No one outside the TST line teaches it because it's too specific!! People may use the term Yi or intent becaues that is in kung fu, but LIM LEK is only taught in TST's school and few other students.

FOR SURE. At those montlhy VTAA meetings, TST always shows a new person an example of LIM LEK using the imaginary line from the wrist , shoulder and elbow etc etc..

[kj]

Originally posted by urban tea
No one outside the TST line teaches it because it's too specific!! People may use the term Yi or intent becaues that is in kung fu, but LIM LEK is only taught in TST's school and few other students.

When you say no one else teaches "it" do you mean no one else uses that specific term "lim lik" or no one else employs it in concept?

If you mean the latter, I think it likely you may view things differently over time.

How do you feel "lim lik" specifically differs from yi or intent? Not at all a rhetorical question. I feel it is valuable to improve my understanding not only of concepts, but also people's intended meaning or connotation when using certain terms.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[yuanfen]

Rather than reproducing your post- some thoughts.
1. Sure I also dont agree with our frequent poster- but for different reasons.
Brief observation of how someone does something doesnt tell you
much necessarily.
2. To the extent that the TST folks have been able to articulate nim lek- the actual usage imo is not limited to tst folks. TST didnt create a brand new art.
3. How do you know what A. Fong does exactly? Without using the term nim lek- what you have described and talked about is a
part of much wing chun- unless you think of a novel way of describing nim lek besides what has been on this list to date...as far as I know.
4. On rooting- there are different ways to learn rooting. Again the
method you describe is not unique to tst. I root differently than the Kenneth Chung people but I have met some Kenneth Chung
students-they seemed to be fairly rooted. At some point all roots
can need adjustment depending on the nature and direction of pressure.... like a human mack truck.
5. I have nothing but repect for TST-but he doesnt have a corner on wing chun. No one does ,with the possible exception of our frequent flier..

[yuanfen]

urban tea- I dont know what you heard or the context in which you heard. "Thinking relaxed" imo is a necessary but insufficient condition for developing rooting. Getting the structure for rooting inolves a lot of things- thinking relaxed is only part of it.
You mention taichi as an example of a high stance possibly-
I dont know what taichi you have seen. Top flight chen stylists do some real low horse stance training too. You have to understand the full curriculum a bit more. Without deep horse training- doing
the snake creeps in grass motion is really challenging.
Again, the Chung people do it one way, we do it differntly-- but in either case-there is more than thinking relaxed...

[AndrewS]

Originally posted by kj



The lower stance also builds capacity for increasing and sustaining a lower center of gravity and wider functional range (high to low).

Additionally, the lower stance seems to "facilitate" a particular body alignment and internal connection; this alignment is very important for us in many respects, including "lik choong day hay" (energy derived from the ground).

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

Hey Kathy,

a couple of quick comments. I played with living low for 4-5 years out of my training time, and have since dispensed with it as a constant thing, based on correction of those I trust. I find that sitting very low gave me mechanical advantage (being underneath stuff), but tended to require some hip flexion, which impaired the musculature involved in generating forward pressure, and sacrificed significant mobility. That hip flexion seems to mess with hip/pelvis alignment and tweak the body mechanics into somewhat different torso usage than I presently idealize in my practice (more low back usage vs. co-ordinating from the mid-back). Moreover sinking that low tends to bring the knees apart, losing the stability and power which come from closing down the legs on the ground. Presently, I find that I can be quite stable standing higher with the hip more extended and a strong emphasis on adduction, and use rotation of the pelvis around the axis of the hips to sink while keeping it in front of them, when needed to absorb (my present chore actually)- the latter being something I lost when working low before. I guess my take is that working lower is useful, but training to apply from your lowest range totally cuts down on your ability to sink, and may breed a bad habit or two, as it develops certain good ones.

Do you choose to apply from a deep stance? How do you fit that constant into your application? If you apply from something higher or learn to work higher, do you find there are things you must train out? Are you keeping fist distance between the knees or so when you go that deep (and how do you caution and align people to avoid meniscal injury if you do require that)?

Some thoughts,

Andrew

[urban tea]

KJ,

I meant to say that many people use YI or intent in their style. What TST has done has used this intent concept and made it very specific for wing chun. MA said that when TST would practice SLT , he would feel different things and ask Yip Man what it was. YiP Man would tell him a little bit and TST would practice. Next time when TST felt something more, he would ask again. So I guess you could say TST learned this LIM LEK from yip man, but took a lot of time and research to figure out how it worked. He did not create the " Yi." Yes it's a general kung fu concept.

I feel that what he learned from yip man and I guess you could say developed...has made his wing chun GOOD.

I've heard sifus say " the Yi" comes from here when talking about applications or chi kung. And yes they are right and TST is right. I've heard kenneth chung talks about Yi but not as specifically or similar to how TST does it.

Yuanfan,

As for rooting...I had the chance to meet Chan Jing Chong who is a chen / yiquan guy in hong kong. I walked up the hill and payed a visit. He showed me a few standing chi kung postures from yiquan. My legs did hurt but it was not real deep.

I also tried the standing meditation with a higher stance and it still had the sinking feeling. Or maybe that was the fluffy rug. I'm sure they they do the form their stances are low.

[yuanfen]

Yuanfan,

As for rooting...I had the chance to meet Chan Jing Chong who is a chen / yiquan guy in hong kong. I walked up the hill and payed a visit. He showed me a few standing chi kung postures from yiquan. My legs did hurt but it was not real deep.

I also tried the standing meditation with a higher stance and it still had the sinking feeling. Or maybe that was the fluffy rug. I'm sure they they do the form their stances are low
-----------------------------------------------------------------
((Tree hugging-standing-yiquan postures involve chi development.
I dont know Chan Jing Chong- but I can assure you that for Chen
martial devlopment that they practice low stances. Chen Xiao Wang can and does jump up quickly and then fall into a low deep stance and throw devastating double pao twi cannon fist punches.I can also tell you that Chen stylists generally dont think that Hong Kong has good chen style. North/South differences.Again, I dont know CJC. But I am a southern hand person.
Also, regarding your point that by asking Ip Man at different times that TST formulated his nim lek theory...I respect TST but he was not the only one who learned very closely from Ip Man. Without going into details or one up manship, Ho Kam Ming learned much directly from Yip Man. As far as Augustine Fong's teaching- the videos skim the surface of what he does and also does not show his detailed corrections, adjustments and instructions of specific motions at different stages of development.The sil lim tao at the start gives a small idea of the lim and one of the kuen kuits in our line (for the chinese characters-see his theory book- that we are mindful of is"Store mental energy with the mind. Move chi with mental energy. Exert strength with chi.Generate power with (this) strength".))
Yuanfen
-----------------------------------------------------------

[kj]

Hello Andrew.


Originally posted by AndrewS


Hey Kathy,

a couple of quick comments. I played with living low for 4-5 years out of my training time, and have since dispensed with it as a constant thing, based on correction of those I trust.[italics mine - kj]


Indeed, an important key for each of us respectively. :)



I find that sitting very low gave me mechanical advantage (being underneath stuff), but tended to require some hip flexion, which impaired the musculature involved in generating forward pressure, and sacrificed significant mobility. That hip flexion seems to mess with hip/pelvis alignment and tweak the body mechanics into somewhat different torso usage than I presently idealize in my practice (more low back usage vs. co-ordinating from the mid-back). Moreover sinking that low tends to bring the knees apart, losing the stability and power which come from closing down the legs on the ground. Presently, I find that I can be quite stable standing higher with the hip more extended and a strong emphasis on adduction, and use rotation of the pelvis around the axis of the hips to sink while keeping it in front of them, when needed to absorb (my present chore actually)- the latter being something I lost when working low before.


I believe I follow, at least in a general sense, the differences you describe.

I also recognize the relationship you describe between hip tuck and knees. Many factors seem to affect this ... differences in individual build, flexibility, degree of tension in the gluteals, tucking hips too much vs. not enough, etc.

For me personally, I am developing the ability to tolerate and express a significant degree of forward pressure, but time has definitely been a factor ... it definitely was not something that simply "switched on" for me.

As you may know, hips and knees are among our 5 key checkpoints (kim sut, lok ma, ting yu, dung tao, mai jahng). Still I realize and appreciate that proper practice is not self-evident from the listing of these, or without personalized instruction and ongoing corrections.

More important than this stance or that, IMHO, is a stance's consistency and integration with other elements of a chosen system, or system flavor.



I guess my take is that working lower is useful, but training to apply from your lowest range totally cuts down on your ability to sink, and may breed a bad habit or two, as it develops certain good ones.


Sure, everything with its advantages, disadvantages, and commensurate challenges to optimally "balance" all elements. And a good stance of whatever flavor, just as with everything else, develops and improves over time.

You are correct, I can be optimally "sunken" but as a "state" it does not provide the ability to further "sink" in the motion sense. There seem to be advantages to "getting there" and other advantages to "being there."



Do you choose to apply from a deep stance? How do you fit that constant into your application?


Yes, but not exclusively. I may consider it "optimal" but by no means a constant. More than doing it "all the time" is the importance of doing it when needed, IMHO.



If you apply from something higher or learn to work higher, do you find there are things you must train out?


Hmmm ... it seems to me more the other way 'round. The higher I am, the more diligent I must be to keep other correct elements in (referring to how we practice, and not making a universal statement of coure). Maybe that's our way of dealing with potential bad habits. ??

As I've written elsewhere in this forum, someplace or other, most of us seem to find that alignment of everything else, our internal unity and "connections" are more easily facilitated when the stance is low. It's kind of a Catch-22 ... go low, optimize posture, but knees tire; stand higher, posture not optimized, start sinking 'cause it feels "right," but knees tire again. Fortunately many of us also grow to love the iterative nature of the training as well as the paradox. Many of us also seem to develop an ability to laugh at ourselves and our temporal shortcomings. :)



Are you keeping fist distance between the knees or so when you go that deep


About a fist distance, yes. I do not go closer than that.

Again, IMHO, fist distance is a "guideline." Beneath the guideline, is the importance of correct focus, e.g., in and converging forward toward the center of the real or imaginary opponent. This is true even when the stance is higher, or the knees ****her apart for whatever reason. It's (IMHO) also related to that "nim lik" thing again. :)



(and how do you caution and align people to avoid meniscal injury if you do require that)?


Most importantly, I caution folks to never-ever follow training advice from the internet without appropriate and personal guidance of a very good teacher. That would include anything that I may write or share. ;) :)

I also caution folks to always apply their own good judgment, take responsibility for their own training, and well-being in general, and learn to recognize and appreciate the difference between "tired muscles" and "bad pain." People simply must, IMHO, learn to read and respect their own bodies! It is imprudent and irresponsible to rely on or burden someone else ... even one's own teacher ... with our own well-being, IMHO.

People are built differently, and operate with slight variations. Thus while I fully believe in "working" the guidelines diligently, I also view them as just that ... "guidelines" and not "hard-and-fast rules." Our 5 key checkpoints, for example, come part and parcel with personalized instruction, and additional explanation. For examples:

Toes and knees should be aligned in the same direction.

Kim sut is not a tight squeezing of the knees (for us), but rather a light "intentionality" such as to hold a Styrofoam cup in place, without crushing or warping its shape.

Toes and knees pointed inward combine with lok ma to achieve the fist distance without undue squeezing in of the knees.

When the knee area tires too much, it is recommended to stand up and rest till the knees can tolerate more work. While diligence and persistence is highly promoted, careless excess is not.

The stance is not something perfected with the first attempt. Balance and diligence in training will yield results and experiential learnings that go beyond intellectualization. Things improve over time, as does our ability to observe, understand ourselves, and self-correct.

FWIW, my biggest concern when I began this way of training was, not coincidentally, about my knees. I have had knee trouble since childhood, osteoarthritis in both knees since my early 20's, and surgery in one in my early 30's. I cannot afford to flare them up, nor risk further undue damage.

I "carefully" began this stance practice and obsessively observed the results over time. My knees are functionally better today and more painfree than when I was half my current age. Both my general physician and orthopedist insist to "keep doing whatever you're doing!"

I don't for a moment doubt that a careless person could damage their knees attempting our stance training without proper guidance and without listening to their bodies ... just as they can damage them in a myriad of other ways. At the same time, I, among many other case studies, seem to be examples that this way of training may actually be beneficial beyond Wing Chun alone, if exercised properly and with due caution.



Some thoughts,


Thanks for taking the time to share them. I appreciate how time consuming it can be to engage in thoughtful exchange, especially in this medium.

BTW, I used to know of an Andrew S. from mailing list days long ago (maybe as many as 6 or 7 years ago). Any chance you are the same Andrew S?

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[AndrewS]

Hi Kathy,

I'm not quite the same AndrewS as in old mailing list days. I shaved off the grey hairs I've been earning and feel like I've aged more like a few decades than a few years (though it becomes debatable in which direction sometimes). I'm down in LA these days- are you still in SF? One of my bros from HKM line is up there and I'm probably gonna roll up to hang in the next few months.

I'm still mucking about with this editor so bear with me. . .

The hip tuck thing- guys from your line have done some cross-training in Chen taiji from what I understand. I've had some contact with Chen taiji through decent sources, and my present take is that that hip alignment is a key point of difference between the two mechanics. As Hawkins (another Wing Chun/Taiji crosstrainer) put it somewhere- 'hip up Wing Chun, hip down Taiji'- a pithy but fairly deep statement. Agree, disagree, no opinion?

'Significant degree of forward pressure'- I take it you're talking about heavy pressure (while soft, of course), or constance of pressure? Was this getting a feel for how to do it, or a broken link in the chain?

'Sunken' vs. 'sinking' - I can see some tradeoffs there. For me- as a big guy, living sunken loses me some reach and mobility- two excellent advantages, and sinking allows me to handle more crashing forces incoming (and evolve a good bit of power to boot). By the same token- being lower gives a degree of intrinisic mechanical advantage, and can truely mess with a person's sense of range if you aren't used to fighting 'down'. You've also got a lot of coiled power to evolve force up from the ground when you live down. What other advantages do you perceive?

'When needed'- we're in total agreement here. The right amount of the right thing at the right time.

As to tiring by living low- people seem to make much of doing stuff for long stretches. I'm a bit wary of that approach. While it does teach how to relax the unneeded stuff and use the ideal paths, doing muscular endurance work is not a good way to speed and power (and can actually retard it). Moreover, at a certain point fatigue kicks in and the joints start taking some damage when stabilizer function is lost. This is my take and my experience, having gone silly overboard and done things like regular sets of 1000 turns, 6000-8000 punches, etc. As you clearly point out, some serious adult supervision and control of testosterone poisoning is necessary to prevent certain types of training from becoming counterproductive exercises in joint grinding and training of fatigued motor patterns.

Lok ma? Huh? Wuzzat? All my Cantonese comes with a bad German accent? ;)

On knee stuff- I'm with you on all this being good done right- I'm just an obsessive on making sure people don't trash their bodies in training. A question- do your beginners normally go through some anterior knee pain (on the pateller tendon) over the first few months? This is pretty standard in my experience, and is dealt with by warning folks to just back off for a bit and take it easy, along with tweaking any obvious stance problems. Medial or lateral pain is almost always a stance problem, but this anterior stuff seems to occur even with good stance- nothing grossly out of whack. Is your experience the same?

Pleasure catching up with you again,

Andrew

[CLOUD ONE]

Yuan fen- are you sure you are not defending your lineage?

''Without going into details or one up manship, Ho Kam Ming learned much directly from Yip Man.''-yuan fen
BTW no one is saying that TST is the only student who was close to YIP MAN.

The thread title is 'Why do you think TST is good?''
Not why do you think other sifu's are bad
:D
But hey you love your sifu and that is admirable.
(((I told you there isn't any other lineage using the term''lim lik'';) ))

KJ- The stance training that TST does has a lot to do with the 'Nim Lik'
The root is always down not forward, i.e the tan , fook, bong is forward but the root is down.
In SLT we learn to stay put in that stance for over an hour without moving any legs so as to develop this root.
Yes relax in the stance as if you were naturally standing up, if your alighnment is off it will correct itself overtime when you learn to relax your leg muscles.
The point is that you are not fighting against gravity and it will aid you.
Whether you are in a high stance or lower stance that root feeling is the same.

[yuanfen]

Cloud One sez:Yuan fen- are you sure you are not defending your lineage?

Not really- anonymous.

[CLOUD ONE]

Yuan fen- don't be like that we are all in the same ''family''

[kj]

Originally posted by AndrewS
Hi Kathy,

I'm not quite the same AndrewS as in old mailing list days. I shaved off the grey hairs I've been earning and feel like I've aged more like a few decades than a few years (though it becomes debatable in which direction sometimes).


LOL. Most of me is falling apart, but at I am blessed so far with no gray hair. That seems to be the only decent gene I inherited. Having said that, I'll probably find some gray in my hairbrush tonight, LOL.



I'm down in LA these days- are you still in SF? One of my bros from HKM line is up there and I'm probably gonna roll up to hang in the next few months.


My teacher is in SF, so I get out that way now and again, though not as often as I'd prefer. I'm located in Western New York. Still, I'm some of my sihings there would surely enjoy to meet with you, if you can spare the time. Feel free to drop me an email if interested, in case we can get you connected.

May I inquire who you train with?



I'm still mucking about with this editor so bear with me. . .


Me too ...



The hip tuck thing- guys from your line have done some cross-training in Chen taiji from what I understand.


Ken does not. I think it's well known that Carl does. A few other students over the years have switched from Wing Chun to Taiji.

Most of Ken's more dedicated students don't have time to dabble in multiple arts, at least the ones I know. Challenging enough to make enough time for Wing Chun.

Ken's stance concepts are consistent with the other Leung Sheung students. While he is good friends with some well known exponents, and without a doubt enjoys touching high level hands from time to time, he himself does not practice Taiji. What he found, he found through the pracitice of Wing Chun, re FAQ (http://www.rochesterwingchun.com/RWC_files/pages/readings/FAQ_Ken.htm).



I've had some contact with Chen taiji through decent sources, and my present take is that that hip alignment is a key point of difference between the two mechanics. As Hawkins (another Wing Chun/Taiji crosstrainer) put it somewhere- 'hip up Wing Chun, hip down Taiji'- a pithy but fairly deep statement. Agree, disagree, no opinion?


I'm not informed enough to comment.

I do know our preferred stance is consistent with what Leung Sheung taught, and he was not a Taiji guy. I have personally witnessed and confirmed the consistency of our stance training preference with 3 of my sibak's directly; it isn't at all unique to Ken.

OTOH, I had a dickens of a time at a one-time workshop I attended with Chen Xiaowang. I simply could not stay with the preferred taiji stance, and kept reverting to my Wing Chun tendencies. Much to his kind persistence, and no doubt his frustration, LOL.

For that matter, the other Taiji guys around here shake their head about my Wing Chun too, LOL.



'Significant degree of forward pressure'- I take it you're talking about heavy pressure (while soft, of course), or constance of pressure? Was this getting a feel for how to do it, or a broken link in the chain?


Pressure can be heavy or virtually imperceptable. That dang "nim lik" thing is everywhere, LOL.

I had to both get a "feel" for the stance, and yes, have been challenged to repair "broken links." More difficult for me than for some, as I'm a bit "broken" to begin with, and commensurate challenges to compensate.



'Sunken' vs. 'sinking' - I can see some tradeoffs there. For me- as a big guy, living sunken loses me some reach and mobility- two excellent advantages, and sinking allows me to handle more crashing forces incoming (and evolve a good bit of power to boot). By the same token- being lower gives a degree of intrinisic mechanical advantage, and can truely mess with a person's sense of range if you aren't used to fighting 'down'. You've also got a lot of coiled power to evolve force up from the ground when you live down. What other advantages do you perceive?


You already pointed out the biggest one ... having a lower COG than the opponent, and being able to get under them to uproot.



'When needed'- we're in total agreement here. The right amount of the right thing at the right time.


Applies to virtually everything. :)



As to tiring by living low- people seem to make much of doing stuff for long stretches. I'm a bit wary of that approach. While it does teach how to relax the unneeded stuff and use the ideal paths, doing muscular endurance work is not a good way to speed and power (and can actually retard it).


Leg/knee training is of course only one among integral factors for the slow training.



Moreover, at a certain point fatigue kicks in and the joints start taking some damage when stabilizer function is lost. This is my take and my experience, having gone silly overboard and done things like regular sets of 1000 turns, 6000-8000 punches, etc. As you clearly point out, some serious adult supervision and control of testosterone poisoning is necessary to prevent certain types of training from becoming counterproductive exercises in joint grinding and training of fatigued motor patterns.


Being an old, cautious woman, I have no qualms to agree with this part.



Lok ma? Huh? Wuzzat? All my Cantonese comes with a bad German accent? ;)


LOL.

Kim Sut - knees in
Lok Ma - sink the stance
Ting Yu - hips tucked under and forward
Dung Tau - head up; elongate the spine
Mai Jahng - elbows down; shoulders down and relaxed

As before, not too little and not too much of any of these ... per Baby Bear "just right." :) And again, with commensurate further explanation and personal correction, rather than literal or out-of-context interpretation.



On knee stuff- I'm with you on all this being good done right- I'm just an obsessive on making sure people don't trash their bodies in training. A question- do your beginners normally go through some anterior knee pain (on the pateller tendon) over the first few months? This is pretty standard in my experience, and is dealt with by warning folks to just back off for a bit and take it easy, along with tweaking any obvious stance problems. Medial or lateral pain is almost always a stance problem, but this anterior stuff seems to occur even with good stance- nothing grossly out of whack. Is your experience the same?


Surprisingly enough, I know of no one who has developed knee problems of any sort from our type of training. And trust me, I've been on the look out for them! Doesn't mean there aren't any, but I am hard pressed to find them.

We do get "Elvis Presley" legs that shake, LOL. "Tiredness" but interestingly not "soreness," in my experience at least.

There is one gal I know who has to be particularly careful and restrained with the stance work due to pre-existing injuries and corrective surgery resulting from years of tae-kwon-do training. I myself use care and consideration with my arthritic knees, rather than concern for a race to the finish line. But aside from pre-existing conditions, I haven't found any problems.

I do think "maturity" is a relevant factor. It may be a self-culling process; seems the younger, hormome driven types rarely have the patience for our way of practice, LOL.



Pleasure catching up with you again,


Likewise, and glad to know you continue in your training.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[AndrewS]

Hi Kathy,

pulled my first grey hair seven years ago or so- gave it to my parents. I figured it wasn't the first grey hair I gave them, but it was definitely the first of mine. . .

I'll get in touch when I run to SF next- probably in the next couple of months.

I'm down in LA training under Sifu Emin and Rene Latosa, working primarily with my si-sok Michael Casey and Jannis Simonedes (when he's in town). <Insert various peoples self-righteous snorting at the horrible flaws of WT and sifu Emin's sloppiness here>

I know Ken doesn't practice taiji- I'm curious about contrasts from the folks who have practiced the two arts. Sorry if I touched a sore point, I know there some idiots out there who are casting aspersions on Ken Chung for his contact with some excellent practitioners from other arts which has resulted in some cross-training among his students (which I personally think is an *excellent* thing).

Pressure- yeah a line from sifu Emin I always come back to is 'contast forward pressure'. How much pressure is used is less relevant than its omnipresence. The line which floats around our circles is that at certain point pressure becomes almost imperceptible (as any force can be used by a someone slick enough technically) and becomes a 'forward idea' (this from guys trained by Heinrich Pfaff at the Castle, sans contact with anyone from TST line). Personally, while I like working with this concept, I'm wary of certain places it can lead (the very light thing).

Broken links- one observation- certain bodyweight callesthentics, used appropriately, can be excellent tools for strengthing/ developing body linkages. Matt Furey's 'Combat Conditioning' has some nice tools in it, among other sources. My ongoing project is trying to loosen and strengthen my hips, which seems a constant war for most people.

Take it easy,

Andrew

[kungfu cowboy]

pulled my first grey hair seven years ago or so- gave it to my parents. I figured it wasn't the first grey hair I gave them, but it was definitely the first of mine. . .

This is very funny.:D While being very scary.:( (Or is it the other way around?)Growing up is bizarre.:p

[kj]

Originally posted by AndrewS
Hi Kathy,

pulled my first grey hair seven years ago or so- gave it to my parents. I figured it wasn't the first grey hair I gave them, but it was definitely the first of mine. . .


LOL. Guaranteed I'm going to plagiarize you when the time comes. :D



I'll get in touch when I run to SF next- probably in the next couple of months.


I'll warn... er ... I mean let 'em know you're coming. :eek: ;)
Seriously, I know they'll be delighted to meet you given the chance, as I would be. Who knows, as I do get out that way now and again. World grows smaller each day.



I'm down in LA training under Sifu Emin and Rene Latosa, working primarily with my si-sok Michael Casey and Jannis Simonedes (when he's in town). <Insert various peoples self-righteous snorting at the horrible flaws of WT and sifu Emin's sloppiness here>


I may be self-righteous, but I'm no snorter! ;) [Well, maybe in my sleep, though I remain skeptical of those reports ....]

Besides, if I snort at you, you might snort back. Soon we wouldn't even enjoy each other's company ... where would that get us?



I know Ken doesn't practice taiji- I'm curious about contrasts from the folks who have practiced the two arts. Sorry if I touched a sore point, I know there some idiots out there who are casting aspersions on Ken Chung for his contact with some excellent practitioners from other arts which has resulted in some cross-training among his students (which I personally think is an *excellent* thing).


You are a breath of fresh air. :)



Pressure- yeah a line from sifu Emin I always come back to is 'contast forward pressure'. How much pressure is used is less relevant than its omnipresence.


"Omnipresence" ... yes, I like it.



The line which floats around our circles is that at certain point pressure becomes almost imperceptible (as any force can be used by a someone slick enough technically) and becomes a 'forward idea' (this from guys trained by Heinrich Pfaff at the Castle, sans contact with anyone from TST line). Personally, while I like working with this concept, I'm wary of certain places it can lead (the very light thing).


I hear you. Even the "right" idea can distract or lead astray if taken to excess or in lieu of other relevant factors. Balance in all things, all things in balance, no?



Broken links- one observation- certain bodyweight callesthentics, used appropriately, can be excellent tools for strengthing/ developing body linkages. Matt Furey's 'Combat Conditioning' has some nice tools in it, among other sources. My ongoing project is trying to loosen and strengthen my hips, which seems a constant war for most people.


While the conditioning route is not our respective avocation for Wing Chun, it is hard to argue against all advantages, especially for general well-being.

I too happen to suffer in particular with some hip/lower back issues (rolfer & I both think it's at least in part iliopsoas related). A problem that's been around a long time (several decades, at least), and not that easy to alleviate.



Take it easy,


Thanks, and you too.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[AndrewS]

Hey Kathy,

The cross-training thing seems pretty useful at a certain point- it seems that until you step outside your art for a bit, there are bits of it you don't see. I've gotten very serious about my escrima in the last two years and have since gotten some very good insights into my WT- mechanically I understand how to evolve power from up to down much better now (and make horizontal power come from that mechanic) and my sense of timing and range have much improved. The little Chen taiji I've done definitely gave me some insights into my WT, though I view the two as very different. Since our little political meltdown occurred last year, sifu has been stressing something he always mentioned more and more- at a certain point in our training we are students of martial arts in general and *should* go out and look around. I think that's the mark of a teacher with true confidence in the strength of their art and teaching- being able to let their students out to look around without worrying about their departure.

'Balance in all things'- hell yeah. I find people who follow any single approach without variabilty lose in their skill development. The guys who're only technical never can fight, those who only fight never take things to a certain technical level, too soft and light all the time you never get structure, too much pressure all the time you never get soft, too focused on taking force you never get explosive. A controlled mixing of approaches attacking the same stuff seems to be a nice road to learning something well.

The hip/low back thing- IMHO the gluts and illiopsoas conspire to bring the pelvis forward (with the adductors playing a role), and thus are the biomechanical source of forward pressure (my take, could be wrong). Tablemakers aka reverse pushups are a nice piece of work for that junction- back to the ground, hands and feet on the ground bring the body up to parallel with the ground, hold, relax, repeat. This is a yoga thing too. Dunno which problem you've been having, but I've found that strengthening both agonist and antagonist musculature improves my joint function (i.e. working my biceps is *good* for my elbows and punch contrary to popular belief), and that with improvements in my strength, it has been easier to improve my flexibility.

Are you up by Bob Loce in NY?

Later,

Andrew

[urban tea]

cloud one,

I agree! It's not how high or low your stance is. It's the alignment that matters. The alignment in chen style, hung gar, hsing yi are all the same! Back straight, hips forward and etc..

Yuanfan,

Chan Jing CHong is from shanghai. He is one generation after feng zhi quan. Feng also visits him quite often and even taught a free one week seminar there. In their standing meditation, their stance is not too low, in their form yes.

My point is you don't have to be low to root. TST's students horse doesn't even look likle a horse. At least they didn't look like it when i visited the school. It looks like a regular person walking. Their alignment is good and they are relaxed. That's why they root.

[kj]

Hi again Andrew. I follow on the pelvis problem, and think you characterized it right. Thanks for the yoga tip too. I'll keep working on it, and get these kinks worked out yet. :)

Variation on the Escrima theme ... we've got some great guys around here doing Pekiti Tirsia for quite a few years. A few practice a less well known form of Kali called San Miguel, as did one of my former instructors. Great guys with a good attitude, and fun, albeit some serious stuff. San Miguel seems to have a heavier emphasis on long knife and dagger ... some vicious stuff. Sure glad they're the good guys! :eek:


Originally posted by AndrewS
Are you up by Bob Loce in NY?


Just a few short streets away. You know him?

I have the greatest respect and admiration for him, and his stubborn persistence in pursuit of excellence in his art. No less his passion and sharing with others. It's a beautiful thing.

We keep in touch periodically, especially for various training and exchange events. He focuses more on art and health aspects rather than martial elements, though he does practice and teach martial applications on a somewhat limited basis. One of these days I'm bound and determined to get him to play some hands. Don't warn him though. :D

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[AndrewS]

Hey Kathy,

while it may be stealing from the neijia shamelessly- one of the three external harmonies really springs to mind- hips and shoulders. It seems they can never be loose enough, strong enough, or too coordinated. Explaining (what little I've figured out) about how the hips should work is also bloody hard to convey, even when physically cranking someone's body around. Some people just don't seem to realize that they have *any* mobility there (terminal whiteboy syndrome).

Haven't caught anyone from the Pekiti system, though I'd love to see it. I've done some kali and arnis, but my present love is Latosa's escrima, which has a very different flavor. To quote an aquaintance of mine visiting our school 'it's like xing yi with a stick'. My take is that weapons tend to determine body usage to a great extent- hence training light edged weapons, medium to light blunt weapons, and heavy weaponry (or better yet heavy edged weapons) will produce radically different approaches. As some mad Europeans got ahold of Latosa escrima, I get to play with blade-heavy gladius and longsword with some regularity, which kinda require a different style of body-usage than a pocket-folder. Less practical, but very interesting from the perspective of developing body mechanics.

I don't know Bob well- I met him about seven years ago when he hosted Mike Sigman for a seminar up that way- but I was much impressed by his clear dedication and development of his art as well as his sense of humour.

Later,

Andrew