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Tao
06-29-2001, 04:46 PM
Greetings KF Brothers,

I have been studying the CMA since the age of nine, and I am still a student and always will be. For a wise man knows that the path to knowledge is infinite, but the path to wisdom and understanding is eternal. The road to martial arts is truly a never ending journey. This path is otherwise known as "Tao"
(the way). However, as one travels (experience) one realizes that there are many paths (lineages, systems,traditions and non-traditions) that all lead to the same desitination which is enlightenment.

For example, the humble Damo or Tamo (Buddha) came from India. He taught the monks at Sil Lum or
Shaolin (young forest temple) yogic therapeutic exercises for health and longevity. Yogi's, Swami's, Guru's all over the world alike respect the Chinese martial arts. For we are all brothers in this never ending journey of knowledge. Buddha
means enlightened one. Yogi's seek enlightenment by attaining Nirvana. This is done through asana
forms), pranayama (chi kung or qi gong), and meditation. Yoga has an energy system based on chakras.
CMA has the meridians and accupuncture points. It all leads to the same thing. The chakra system in
Africa is the mojo, Ancient Egypt; pyramid or tachyon energy which was based on the wand of Thoth or the Djed pillar of Osiris all being based on the 33 vertebraes of the spine. Greece received their energy system from Egypt they called it the kyballion of Hermes. The Hebrews call it the Kabbalah. The shamans of North America, the Aztecs of Mexico, the Incas of South America, the Arabs etc. I can go on and on. My point is... every culture has their own path to enlightenment. It is said that the greatest truth is this... everything is energy, and everything has a vibration, every vibration a sound, a color, a plane, a world, a universe, a universe within a universe, it goes on and on and then comes back to itself.
All paths lead to the same road in the end. Every one has the same energy but just express it in different ways, thoughts, ideas, lineages, systems. The ancients of CMA knew this powerful truth. This is why they hid this knowledge
in poems, caligraphy, symbols, forms, systems, and lineages. However, although keeping this knowledge
secret and passing this knowledge from father to son, from Sifu to closed door disciples served its
purpose (preserving the knowledge from the profane). This secrecy and esoteric privelege also breeded rivalry, conflict, etc. We can see this know to this day. An example is the lineage debates on this Forum as well as others. Over so many centuries man still hasnt learn from his mistakes. These same debates, rivalries, etc. are the same seeds that are sown in the hearts of men that reap the evil fruits of war, and destruction.

When I started learning the CMA. I started during the time when Sifus in the 1970's in NYC's Chinatown taught students in sweat shops and underneath illegal casinos, and even their home. Back then there was great respect for the art and ones point of view. Sometimes students never even knew the name of their Sifu or the system they were taught! But these Sifus were true martial masters. Rare now a day. The most important thing was not the lineage but the principle of what you were taught. Which existed from time immemorial. No one can claim this knowledge it is free for everyone. This is why Bruce Lee said be like water. He broke from tradition. He never downed tradition because he came from it (Yip Man).
However, he said dont get caught up in it. Like the lineage battles, etc. We are all trying to understand what this thing energy is. Scientists are realizing now that there are other invisible structures (Quantum Physics, Qi, Qi Gong, meridians, etc.) they were too closed minded to believe existed. We are at the brink of a golden age where Western Science and Eastern Science (CMA, TCM, Yoga, etc.) can merge and
make wonderful discoveries. So instead of bickering about lineages and inflating the ego of tradition (which is the opposite of eastern wisdom) let us learn from each other.

When I started learning chinese martial science (which I still am) I learned these moral codes which I find lacking in many students and schools these days:


Respect the ancestors of your art or any other art. (This is why after the Boxer Rebellion the Ching Mo Association was formed).

Respect your teacher or other teachers.

Respect your brother (or sister) in the art or
humanity in general.

Never speak ill or evil of your brother (or sister) of any lineage.

Respect one another's views. For ones view is an expression of ones Yi (idea). This comes from Qi and leads to Shen (Spiritual Enlightenment).


If someone speaks wrong, or ill of you wish him well. This is the road to self-mastery or mastering self. Controlling your emotions. Not reacting at the whim of someones words. This is true wisdom and understanding which leads one to peace and harmony with self and others. Some people dont know any better. So through silence you teach them.

Most of all Never! Ever! Forget the true
virtue of humility! Humility means to be humble.
If someone speaks wrong, or ill of you wish him well. Which means that if you disrespect another art or its existence, or down another art, or speak ill of it directly or indirectly you are breaking a major tenet of Sil Lum Martial arts and will receive your reward.

This is Tao. Tao is also the laws of Nature which is Justice. Justice is the reward or penalty for ones ways and actions. So if you do good your Qi as well the Qi of your ancestors, your art, system, mind, etc. will reward you in the form of new knowledge, wisdom, understanding, health, longevity, etc.. If you do evil (speak bad about other lineages, people, their views, etc.) penalty will be your reward (which will be confusion, insanity, bad luck, or even death). This is the way. Tao.

CMA, and JMA, or any other art for that matter. I wish you a wonderful journey in the Tao. If someone speaks ill of you. Respect him still. Be like water. This is the way. If you learn this you will be crysal clear like water....and like a prism...the light (truth) of the ancients will be made known to you.

A mi to fu!

md1
07-01-2001, 02:38 AM
VERY VERY WELL SAID!

"when you expect your oppoent to yield/you also should avoid hurting him"

omegapoint
07-01-2001, 12:49 PM
Outstanding! You have more than a clue as to what's up!! Eloquently stated!!!

Tao
07-02-2001, 09:54 AM
Right md1.

Thanks omegapoint.

Tao
07-04-2001, 06:28 PM
Peace to Evert, Rene, Justin and the whole
Nam Siu Lam Hung Ga family, as well as all the
other Hung Ga families, CMA families, Karate-do families, Yoga families, Korean MA families, Tibetan MA families, Vietnamese MA families, and other MA families. We are all family! No matter what family or lineage.

A mi to fu

Fu-Pow
07-04-2001, 07:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> When I started learning the CMA. I started during the time when Sifus in the 1970's in NYC's Chinatown taught students in sweat shops and underneath illegal casinos, and even their home. Back then there was great respect for the art and ones point of view. Sometimes students never even knew the name of their Sifu or the system they were taught! But these Sifus were true martial masters. Rare now a day. [/quote]

I think this is kind of a silly statement. You didn't even know the name of your master?

I think one of the reasons that people bicker about lineage, that you didn't address, is that they are worried that they are not getting the true transmission of the art. If the path is truly enlightenment then why would you want to start at the bottom of the hill when you can start at the middle? Kung fu only progresses if one generation builds upon the knowledge of the previous generation. If I only learn 50% of what my master knows and my student learns 50% of what I know, and his student....you get my point. At that rate you'll end up with one punch and one kick with in a couple generations.

There are tons of asian guys out their who claim to be master martial artists (Sing The' of Shaolin Do, Iron Kim of Oom Yung Doe,etc) and you know what, there are people (mainly white or black) that believe they are master martial artists just because they are ASIAN!!!! They'll believe it even if the lineage and history are totally unbelievable and inconsistent.

These same people don't ask questions. They don't probe into the history and context of their art. They follow blindly whatever the teacher says because he/she is asian. Lineage is not everything but it is important.

A natural consequence of people asking questions is that they are going to run into historical inconsistencies. That is because history is subjective. There will be conflicts. But I still think that you should ask the questions. That you should study the history. That teachers should be open and answer their students questions about lineage and history to the best of their knowledge.

Fu-Pow
http://makskungfu.com/images/R7star.gif
"If you are talking about sport that is one thing. But when you are talking about combat-as it is-well then, baby, you'd better train every part of your body" - Bruce Lee

L D S
07-04-2001, 07:46 PM
Do you know who your master is? Please tell this forum about him. We are curious.

We are all family! No matter what family or lineage ---????????

I hope you are no family of mine. I already have too many to support

Ling

Kung Lek
07-04-2001, 09:37 PM
I agree...

from the top of the mountain the world does look the same.

from the bottom of the mountain, you can only see the wall of rock that directly faces you.

it's the climbing of the mountain where we understand the immensity of it and the smallness of ourselves.

peace

Kung Lek

oldwolf
07-05-2001, 01:05 AM
Kung lek, from the bottom of the mountain you can often only see the *******s above. :D

"And the crowd called out for more"

L D S
07-05-2001, 11:37 PM
It's lonely at the top.

Ling

Tao
07-06-2001, 05:11 PM
Ling,
My master is the true knowledge in the development of one's self - mind and body. No matter what culture, system, lineage, family, etc.

There is a saying: "Fo Dao Yi Jia" meaning
Buddhism and Taoism is one family.

However, these have their origins in India. So Buddhism, Taoism, CMA, Yoga are also one family...in the truth they passed down to each other. The truth which is the development of ones self. This knowledge also exists in other cultures......one family. If you can see truth in all cultures. Then you can see humanity as being one family.....not limiting yourself to the fallacy that one lineage or family is better than the other. A wise person realizes that there is nothing new under the sun, that all roads lead to the same path. We are born, we die. It is in between that we can choose our path.

The true goal is to master self by conquering self (the ego). In this way one realizes his true self. Which is the truth in all things. CMA is one path to doing this. However, the paths are many.

Peace, OM, Shalom, A mi to fu, Salaam, etc.

Tao
07-06-2001, 05:29 PM
Kung Lek,

This is so true, adding to what you have said...

From the top of the mountain the world does look the same:

For when one ascends the mountain of knowledge and
attains wisdom, all things become clear. We have no prejudices. Only truth.

From the bottom of the mountain, you can only see the wall of rock that directly faces you:

The bottom of the mountain is when one has just begun the journey to acquire truth. Not yet having a strong foundation (knowledge). The wall of rock is the ignorance, ego, etc. one has to conquer in one's self.

It's the climbing of the mountain where we understand the immensity of it and the smallness of ourselves:

Kung Lek. I couldnt have said it better myself.
The climbing of the mountain is experience. The immensity is that knowledge is infinite and humbles us. When we see the smallness of ourselves we understand the virtue of humility and become vast like the universe....because we become part of it.

Train the inner body (mind, spirit) and outer body
(physical body) simultaneously. Inner body (CMA),
outer body (other arts).

Peace



Kung Le

phoenix-eye
07-07-2001, 02:54 AM
this is all a bit.... (makes gesture of something flying over head)

Anyway, I'd just like to say that niko and Kung Lek have got it just abought right. Lineages etc are all a bit trivial at the end of the day.

While I don't doubt Fu Pow's statement about various impostors claiming to be masteres I think that is more about making sure that you select the RIGHT instructor rather than the right style or lineage.

If its not pure Hung Gar etc etc - does that matter if the person who's teaching can enlighten you?

I reckon that when you have been training for a long time the issues of lineage really fade away once you get to know the intricacies of whichever art you are studying. At the end of the day you are mastering yourself and your mind - not just the particular version of your "traditional " style that you happen to be studying.

Interesting points on other cultures too - there are some wise people on this forum. I'm learning a lot. Cheers!!

Losttrak
07-07-2001, 04:07 AM
Thats very profound. Sort of like when someone weaves together all those cluttered threads of thought in your head and makes them whole. This boards stocks have just increased.

ATTN: FU POW

I don't think its that big of an issue that he never knew who his master was, so long as his techniques were genuine. I have known my sifu for years yet I don't really KNOW him either. Sure I know his name but what really does that amount to other than a label? I think many of us consort with people and we never truly know what they are capable of. They only let us know what they want us to see.

"If you and I agree all the time, then one of us is unnecessary."

meltdawn
07-07-2001, 06:52 AM
Niko, you post very well. Allow me to add a few thoughts.

Step One: Why religion is not kung fu.

Taoism, Buddhism and Confucianism are philosophy to the scholar and religion to the common man. Because a Chinese individual teaches kung fu, it does not mean he teaches "religon", yet the two are inextricably entwined because of the culture from which they have sprung. Without war, no peace. Without darkness, no light. Even Confucius stated: "Don't know life - how know death?"

When learning kung fu, bear this in mind. Hand to hand combat existed before physical forms were practiced in Shaolin. It has been around longer than Newton's Law of Physics, longer than Lao Tse, and longer the Star Trek Enterprise Technical Manual. If you want self-protection, good morals and health, go to a kung fu master. If you want to live forever, go to a Taoist priest. If you want to "sleep, perchance to dream" (thanks, stumblefist) and escape your physical burden, join a Buddhist monastery. If a Chinese came to you to learn boxing, would you also teach him Catholicism?

Step Two: Why kung fu is religion.

Kung fu is an art and a science. Picasso's talent did not spring forth unguided. Hawkening does not chatter idly from a stream of consciousness. Men like them have "heard a calling" and seek instruction. They do not enroll at Mayberry CC, they travel to Ringling, or Harvard; if failing, seek local talent. Not talent unschooled; for how does one learn from a teacher he can only respect by saying "he can paint well, but I don't know why"?

When you decide you know what you want, that is when the journey only begins, for now you must search. If you perservere simply because you are driven, then you will know why kung fu is religion.

Step Three: Why all this yadda yadda yadda means lineage is important.

If you love and study an art and wish to keep it pure as such (for only then can you grow it), you MUST understand your teacher and your teacher's teacher, ad infinitum. It is much harder to be thorough and learn to use all your tools and much easier to pick up one hammer and make a lot of noise.

If those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it, then the best advice is to study well. At Harvard. Or Ringling. Or Master ------, who earned his knowledge as you are trying to earn yours.


"Man, that cat's good with a knife."

"Yeah dude, one day he just picked it up and did this amazing triple bypass and valve replacement right there on the street. He must be talented or something."


.

"Waiting is bad." - Musashi

Tao
07-07-2001, 10:39 AM
Pheonix Eye, Losttrak, and Meltdawn, you also post very well. I understand your points, and you also understand mine.

Lineage is very important but it is equally as important to keep an open mind to other points of view, others thoughts, lineages, etc. just as we are doing with each other. In this way we learn, improve, evolve, exchange and share our knowledge with each other. So whatever we choose to excel in...whether it be Hung Gar from Lam Sai Wing, or Tang Fong, or Sil Lum system of Tid Kiu Sam, Yip Man Wing Chun, Buddha Hand Wing Chun, Ving Tsun Wing Chun, Buddhism, Taoism, Qi Gong, Quantum Physics, TCM, etc. We can all learn from this. Like Bruce Lee once said..... be like water. Meaning be flexible, open-minded, not narrow-minded. This way one's perception of Kung Fu, Karate-do, Aikido, or whatever art or science you choose to excel in will be clear like water.
Water is clear and therefore absorbs and reflects all colors of the spectrum of light (truth). Water that is always running (evolving, changing, going with the natural flow of things) is pure and not stagnant. This view may not be good for every one and I respect this. Some people like the more traditional and conservative approach. I understand this as well. Different strokes for different folks. For those who feel this conversation is not for this forum should respect this point of view and go elsewhere. As you can see some people are benefiting from this.

I will note though that one should at least have a strong foundation in one art. However, there is nothing wrong with learning from other arts as well. Systems like Hung Gar are an amalgamation of techniques such as short bridge, long bridge, etc. We can see the techniques of the abbot Gee Sin, the buddhist nun Wu mei, the martialist Tit Kiu Sam. It is even said that Tit Kiu Sam knew the Tibetan Lama style. Whether this is true or not (before someone starts unnecessary conflict) the point I am trying to make is sometimes even the arts that were passed down to us were created by incorporating different techniques from other styles. This is good. In this way systems evolve. The earth evolves, and revolveds, so does man that exists within it and his history. So do martial art systems etc. Some prefer the systems they learn unchanged (Tang Fong or Old Square Mind), others add on to it (Wong Fei Hung), others create their own entirely (Bruce Lee-Jeet Kune Do, etc.). As we say in New York...ITS ALL GOOD! Choose the truth thats best for you. However, the wise respects others as well as learn from them.

Peace