Last night's pride fight, gracies and steroids

[Spirit Writer]

I watched last night's pride fight on pay per view, and two things stuck out: One, there are a lot of unnaturally big and well defined men fighting in these events (UFC, KI, Pride, ect.) -- do they test for steroids, and in guessing that they don't, I suggest that they do.
And two, everybody seems to have some knowledge of the ground. An asian man embarrased H. Gracie last night. Not only did he defeat him standing, but left Gracie lying on his back like a turtle, scared to get up and face him on the ground. When Gracie did get to him, the asian got out of the hold and began litterally kicking him in the arse. The man was so bold he even did a cartwheel over Gracie as he layed there on his back, trying to lure the smart man in -- which he didn't.
My point? Start testing for steroids. Realise that many have learned to deal with BJJ.

[IronFist]

From what I hear there are some good masking agents to help people pass steroid tests.

Of course, they're not easily obtainable, but for pro athletes with connections they might be within reach.

Again, this is all what I've heard. I don't know for sure but it wouldn't surprise me.

IronFist

[Stacey]

that fight between Sakuraba and gracie was years ago. Besides who cares? If your a martial artist of any skill, you have done your own fighting and don't need to do it vicariously through other people.

[hughes]

The cartwheel guard pass is hardly showboting, it may look like it is but its effectiveness of passing the bjj guard has been proven and noted by fighters when they fight a bjj'er or anyone in the guard for that matter.

[LEGEND]

Steroids??? What sports doesn't have an athlete using it anymore!? Boxing, football, basketball...sad but tough to enforce.

U just bought a PRIDE event years ago??? LOL...Sakuraba vs. Renzo Gracie right??? Sakuraba is known as the GRACIE killer...probably one of the most skilled grappler ever to fight! And YES...everyone in the MMA can fight standup and the ground now!

[TzuChan]

Originally posted by Stacey
that fight between Sakuraba and gracie was years ago. Besides who cares? If your a martial artist of any skill, you have done your own fighting and don't need to do it vicariously through other people.


Yeah that fight was sweet, Saku is tha man, I'm his biggest fan :D

Hope he comes back asap, recovering from that injury, god****, fun times ahead ;)

*note : saku whooped everybody from the gracie family, he even spanked some of em (seriously, look for hsi HQ movie ;) )

[PaulLin]

Tournaments like pride fight are needed for audiences to survive. Fairness of the fight is priority but the reation of audiences and the numbers of them are the first consideration. Looking for fairness in that? I don't hope much unless the general audiences see it that way.

[Mr Punch]

He is talking about Pride 21 'Demolition'. The fighter was judoka Shungo Ogawa (I think his surname's right). At one point he stuck out his face for a second or two in range and Gracie didn't even hit it. He (Gracie) looked stoned. Then Gracie spat on him.

I noticed the filming didn't show Gracie much during the breaks (he was knackered after half of the first round), and wasn't too clear on him spitting either, but I was there, and I saw it. I'm not making any comments on his usual fighting skill or on this style of tournament, but that fight he was crap. Really really disgracefully bad.

[chokeyouout]

The cartwheel guardpass is used quite a bit in NHB.Ogawa used it but didn't capatilize once he got beyond Renzo's legs.

Not really a good day for Renzo.

Spitting makes him look frustrated.

Renzo got stymied.

[Ryu]

"He is talking about Pride 21 'Demolition'. The fighter was judoka Shungo Ogawa "


Judo....... is there anything it CAN'T do? :)


:D

Ryu

[Archangel]

Defend against a wrestlers leg takedowns ;)

[KnightSabre]

These days in the MMA's events everyone knows both standing and ground fighting.

Ogawa beat Renzo on points but a few Prides back he was choked uncontious by Wallid Ishmael who is a BJJ black belt and an enemy of Renzo Gracies brother Ryan Gracie.

[Ryu]

"Defend against a wrestlers leg takedowns "

Doh! I knew there was something! :(

:D

[Tigerstyle]

Archangel,
Do not talk bad about Judo! You'll make Ryu get upset and leave :p .

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by KnightSabre
These days in the MMA's events everyone knows both standing and ground fighting.

Ogawa beat Renzo on points but a few Prides back he was choked uncontious by Wallid Ishmael who is a BJJ black belt and an enemy of Renzo Gracies brother Ryan Gracie.

Hi Knightsabre... Don't quite see your point. Ogawa sucked against Ishmael. That's not related to the Gracie fight is it? He won on points against Renzo because Renzo sucked. Ogawa dominated the standing fight (and he didn't even have to do much to do this) and made a mockery of Renzo's groundwork. If I were just basing an analysis of Renzo on this fight, I would have to conclude that he was unfit and not ready martially or any other way to be fighting in Pride. If I were analysing Ogawa's almost equally mediocre performance, I would have to say that he was lucky to have such a poor opponent!!

[MA fanatic]

Spirit: You need to get with the program. You're watching events
which occured years ago, getting names confused, and calling one of the top NHB fighters an "Asian man." LOL LOL

Sakurababa is one of the top No Rules competitors in Japan. He had defeated some Top BJJ stylists (including Conan Selviera, Vitor Belford...who had a fever of 102 when stepping into the ring, Royce Gracie, Renzo Gracie...via kimura arm lack, and Ryan Gracie...who fought with a shoulder injury). It is important to note that Sakuraba also lost to Alan Goez (a BJJ competitor) and lost royaly. Goez made Sak look as bad as Sak made some of the Gracies look. Lets not forget that Sakuraba is not some "asian martial artists." The man was on Japanese national wrestling team. He did some WWF type wrestling in the past, but he has a very solid background in Greco Roman and Freestyle (he is nationally ranked...one of the best in Japan). He also trained from some of the top submission fighters in Japan (mixing Judo, some Sambo...Russian grappling art, and even bjj). The fight you're referring to was his fight against Royler Gracie where Royler lay on his back calling Sak into his guard...which was ideotic. However, had Sak not had solid ground fighting experience, he would lose the second the two hit the mat. Keep in mind that Royler gave up 40 pounds to Sak.

As for steroids, most top NHB guys are not juiced. Gracies are not juicing. Sakuraba is not juicing (at least he doesn't look like he is). Most guys don't use. Those who do most likely quit a few weeks prior to the event. But, in the upper ranks, very few fighters look like they use steroids. You just have get with the times Spirit.

In a related note, in a recent Gladiator Challenge, two Kung Fu guys got beaten silly. One guy got choked out in 20 seconds after trying to apply a flying side kick against a wrestler. The other, Wing Chun practitioner, got beaten like a child with head kicks, low kicks, and good old fashioned boxing combinations (he must have eaten 15 unanswered head kicks, bunches, knees, etc. etc.). The man was trying to apply his trapping but got countered every time by a muay thai boxer.
MA fanatic

[Braden]

For the subtext impaired, a summary:

Part One of Post: It's not about style vs style, man. Sak beat BJJ guys. BJJ guys beat Sak. It's about the individual, get with the program.

Part Two of Post: It's all about style vs style, man. Everyone beats kungfu guys. You suck. You personally. Get with the program.

:p

[Merryprankster]

LOL at Braden! :)

Three things:

1. When you compete often and against the best that the world has to offer, sometimes you have an off day, look like crap, and get stomped. That's the reality of competition. That's what makes undefeated records in a champion so rare, and that's why guys like Karelin, with his vast string of victories, and Rocky Marciano, so mpressive, and loom so large in our mythos.

2. Renzo spitting was uncalled for and unsportsmanlike. It also happens. This is a full contact competition, and tempers flare. Think if it as being as heated as lineage wars, except that it's a lot less petty and consumes less emotional energy because the time span is shorter. I wouldn't be surprised if Renzo and Ogawa had a beer afterwards--that's the way a lot of this is. You have to be passionate and aggressive to want to fight full contact, and most, not all, but most of us, can leave that crap behind in the ring.

3. The man who beat the man who beat the man type comparisons aren't necessarily accurate because styles make fights. I give one guy in class fits, and another one of my training partners gives me a hard time, and the guy who has a hard time with me has a much easier time with the one I have a hard time with.

That's life...*shrug*

[Mr Punch]

MP thanks for summing up what I had neither the wits or the energy to do! Renzo had an off-day. The unsportsmanlike thing though: if my temper flares in sparring I go all-elbows and head mad, I don't spit! Maybe I shouldn't train up for this kind of thing!! I get your point but that's what confused me about Renzo: he didn't seem to have any fighting spirit.

Braden: LOL


Originally posted by MA fanatic
Spirit: You need to get with the program. You're watching events
which occured years ago, getting names confused, and calling one of the top NHB fighters an "Asian man." LOL LOL

Why don't you try getting with the programme and reading more than the first post. He is not confused. You are confused. Geddit!


Originally posted by MA fanatic
The other, Wing Chun practitioner, got beaten like a child with head kicks, low kicks, and good old fashioned boxing combinations (he must have eaten 15 unanswered head kicks, bunches, knees, etc. etc.). The man was trying to apply his trapping but got countered every time by a muay thai boxer.
MA fanatic

I hope you don't beat children like this!!!:eek:

All I can say is if he was just trying to trap a thai boxer, he wasn't a good wingchunner, nor ready for this kind of fight. But thanks for the constructive input!

[Merryprankster]

I would like to clarify that I am NOT excusing Renzo's actions. I disagreed when he went BACK to a gas station to berate a man who had insulted his wife, and I disagree with his actions now.

I believe, however, that we have to look at the totality of a person to make judgments about their nature. Renzo, by all accounts, and from my EXTREMELY limited interaction with him, is a decent guy, a tenacious fighter, and a good instructor with a hot temper. :) Heck, all his students love him, so that says something about the guy--so long as we aren't O.E. Simoning it....

[Mr Punch]

Yeah sure, I still see your point, but he only spat on Ogawa; he didn't murder his goldfish or anything...!!:( And I was nowhere near the gas station, honest!!

I don't know why he had no fight in him that day. He looked unfit, but there could be any number of reasons for that. I'm not attacking him... he'd probably kill me!!:D

[old jong]

"In a related note, in a recent Gladiator Challenge, two Kung Fu guys got beaten silly. One
guy got choked out in 20 seconds after trying to apply a flying side kick against a wrestler. The other, Wing Chun practitioner, got beaten like a child with head kicks, lo kicks, and good old fashioned boxing combinations (he must have eaten 15 unanswer head kicks, bunches, knees, etc. etc.). The man was trying to apply his trapping but got countered every time by a muay thai boxer."
MA fanatic
...My dad is bigger and stronger than your's!...no!...my father is!...My mama is bigger than your's!...Yes and she's uglier too!...:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Polaris]

Originally posted by MA fanatic

As for steroids, most top NHB guys are not juiced. Gracies are not juicing. Sakuraba is not juicing (at least he doesn't look like he is). Most guys don't use. Those who do most likely quit a few weeks prior to the event. But, in the upper ranks, very few fighters look like they use steroids. You just have get with the times Spirit.


Perhaps you need to get with the program. Whether someone "looks" like they use steroids means little. Secondly
it is very naive to think "most" dont do them. Pride for one never even tests, nor do they care.

At any rate, I have heard plenty from insiders about how steroid
use is quite common among the professionals. Unfourtunate,
but true.

[KC Elbows]

****it, why didn't anyone mention kung fu doesn't work before? Geez, all that sparring for no reason.:mad:

BTW, why would the 'roid freaks drop out two weeks before the event? I don't get that, but I am just a kung fu guy.

BTW, in defense of kung fu, I'd just like to say that, in our events, if one guy lays on the ground, you're not required to lay there with him. You always have the option of a long distance chi blast. And anyways, they're usually lying there because of the 100 step dim mak.

[Merryprankster]

KC--

A couple of quick things--

In pride, you can knee the opponent in the head, kick or stomp them while they are down, in any position.

Secondly, why are you revealing the secrets of donkey snuff 100 step dim mak technique?! Master will be angry with us and make us clean out the stables.

[KC Elbows]

Cool(about Pride). I haven't watched any of the pride events yet, but it's nice to know that they allow all that.

It looks like we will be cleaning the stables. Traditional masters of donkey snuff fu are so difficult, but you do not want to get on their bad side!

[Xebsball]

another pathetic display of generic idioticy by MA fanatic.
Do you realise you are the kind of guy that makes the bjj people look bad in the eyes of other martial artists?

[old jong]

"Do you realise you are the kind of guy that makes the bjj people look bad in the eyes of other martial artists?"
I understand how you may feel but we should realise that it is not the majority of BJJ'ers that are talking this way. There are jerks in all the arts and I know some very good ones who practice CMA's! ;)

[KC Elbows]

Like me!:D

[Le nOObi]

Ma fanatic- have you ever had a pro fight?