ritual bowing to flags & do jangs

[Black Jack]

I was curious to see what people's views are on martial art schools and there ritual bowing to the arts founding countries flag during the opening and/or ending of the day's class.

I have noticed that this is a big thing in Korean Do Jangs, you have a American flag on one side and a Korean flag on the other, in some schools I here that you only have a Korean flag, before the start and the end of class you bow to the flag or flags.

On a twisted note how do you feel about this practice when it concerns kids classes.

I understand showing respect to the arts founder, maybe a picture or something, and of showing respect to your resident countries flag for all the freedoms that those have gone on before you have died to preserve, but a foreign flag I just don't get at all.

Any comments?

[old jong]

TKD was founded by a general,I believe. It is a very "military art!" if I can say. I guess there is a connection.
But, I think it is asking a little too much to the student. Why mix sport with politics?

[Brad]

I wouldn't bow to the flag of my art's founding country. As much as I love wushu, I'm not bowing to a comunist flag, lol.

[MonkeySlap Too]

In my class a bow is like a handshake. We don't bow to inanimate objects any more than you would shake a flags hand.

Members are expected to have proper respect and etiquette, but I run things along a family or villiage style rather than military methods.

Also, I personally have never been one for granting authority to symbols. People are fine, but symbols never did much for me.

(Although I understand their usefulness in times of crisis as a rallying point. I'm not an extremeist or anything on the issue.)

[MonkeySlap Too]

On a more philosophical note, I am generally oppossed to Americans bowing to foreign flags. We are an immigrant country (well, except for the few natives who didn't get themselves killed) and frankly it is in our interests to have those that come here become 'Americans' and learn about thier 'new' ancestors - the pilgrims, settlers and Native Americans.

The liberal French do the same thing. Viet Namese immigrants learn about thier ancestors - the ancient Gauls.

It's even easier in America where there are no official castes or bloodlines. The stories we tell ourselves as Americans make us all Americans. Stregth in unity and all that jazz.

So no, I do not beleive in bowing to foreighn flags. I have a hard enough time bowing to our own, and I friggin' love the good 'ol USA.

[neito]

i think nationalism should have no place in martial arts whatsoever. a picture of important figureheads in the art, or the schools banner/symbol is alright with me though.

[Jimbo]

Well, MY ancestors are not the Pilgrims, Europeans, or the Native Americans; they are my grandfather who arrived in North America (through Vancouver) in around 1889 from Japan. I am American through and through, BUT I will not deny my ancestry to myself for anybody or anything. I do not bow to any Japanese flag or any flag for that matter (though i do display an American flag). Although throughout history politics and martial arts have usually gone hand-in-hand, IMO, national politics should generally be kept out of the MA school.

I feel nothing would be wrong with displaying the flag of the art's national origin in a school, IF that flag is displayed alongside the flag of the nation where it's being taught (and here, that's the U.S. flag). But no, I do not believe in being forced to worship a foreign flag in my own country. But I've trained in American style, Japanese, Korean and CHinese systems in the past, and in my observation, it was only the Korean style schools that wanted Americans to bow to their Korean national flag.
Jim

[MonkeySlap Too]

My ancestors weren't pilgrims either. In fact most of my family lives overseas. Yet I grew up here and was educated that my 'history' was the history of these United States. It is the thing that binds us together. You don't have to be caucasian to be a part of this.

Yeah, the Koreans are the most overtly nationalist, although I have seen it in Japanese schools as well.

[Black Jack]

Jimbo,

I heard and seen the same observation on how the Korean schools are more focused on bowing to the Korean flag.

Which brings me to another add on................................

Acknowledgment of any religous shrine or symbol in a ritual manner in a school setting and/or any ritual chanting or prayer before and after class.

I put these elements in the same light as the non-national flag bowing ritual. With the exception that if the school is a actual buddisht temple, taoist temple or marketed christian martial arts school.

What are your thoughts on these other elements in a school setting? Due you think that a student body should be required to recite any prayers before the class begins just because the system may of come from a specific culture and foremost why?

[MonkeySlap Too]

No. But if the class is structured as a Taoist, Buddhist, Christian thing, then it is thier perogative, and you can just not join. I had a Bak Mei teacher who felt it was very important to pray to Kwan Gung to possess you in battle. I just found it amusing.

I make no religous demands on my students, and I don't really like people who do that sort of thing. But if that is thier wish, good luck at it, I guess.

[PaulLin]

Bowing to flag? I would turn away form such place. Better join the army than join this crap.

[Okami]

If you are in a redneck school do you bow to the Confederate flag? :D

[Gabriel]

In my school, they have 4 flags. Taiwans Flag, American Flag, State Flag, and Confederate flag. We don't bow to any of them though.

err.. LONG LIVE THE CONFEDERACY!!! :D

[Shaolindynasty]

I've only really seen Korean style schools do this consitancy and i think it has to do with their precepts. somthing like

loyalty to parents
loyalty to country
never retreat in battle
nevr kill unjustly

Oh by the way polotics and martial arts go hand in hand what do you think armys used before guns? How were the Tongs created etc. If that's the custom of the school I wish to join I don't have a problem with it, if you join a school(like immigrating to a country) you should try to assimulate. When in Rome....... Of course none of the schools I have ever chosen have done this.

A related issue is what about the "christian matial arts association" they require schools to say a prayer before and after class. How do you guys feel about that?

[KC Elbows]

Before class:

"Oh god, please protect me and keep me from throwing up this class."

After class:

"Thank you, god, for shielding my shirt from the spew. You are truly beneficient."

Next class:

"God, please, not the quads, anything but the quads!"

Afterwards:

"Thank you, god, for showing me that my quads, sore as though beaten by mobsters with phone books, can still move for possibly two hours without falling. You are truly wise."

Last class of the week:

"Oh god, please don't pair me up with the stinky guy."

Afterwards:

"Thank you for teaching me to be tolerant. And for not allowing spew to get on my shirt."

[guohuen]

Oh my God that was funny KC. I've fought for my country (meaning we the people) and performed public service (EMT, vocational trainer for developmentally challenged adults, Scout master, Correctional officer) and am still EXTREMELY offended when anyone asks me to pay homage to an inanimate object, including my own flag.