Martial Art Contracts/ Yes or No?

[Black Jack]

I got the idea from my post on flag bowing in a martial arts school and it got me thinking on what people's views are on martial art contracts.

Do you see this as a ligit form of business? Pro's and Con's?

I did have a very good friend once who got his credit tarnished because of this tactic. I understand you have to put bread on the table but I do not agree with it. There are better methods of billing.

What do you think and or/if how do you run your school?

[joedoe]

I personally wouldn't do it. We charge a yearly membership fee to cover insurance, but there is no contract as such.

Having said that, I don't see why it is so bad. Gyms do it, so why shouldn't MA schools? As long as the contracts are legal and reasonable then I don't see a problem.

[kungfu cowboy]

I would prefer month to month or ideally, pay-per-lesson. That way you only pay for when you definitely go. No wasted money. You can quit whenever you want. They should make that the law.

[LEGEND]

Contract is the way to go especially for martial art skools! You have to realize that from a BUSINESS point of view u have to make money!!! Most students hate contracts but they're not paying for the LEASING of the SPACE, the electricity, water, advertisement, equipment, and maintenance of their training hall! In the beginning, most skools had month by month. LOL. The people never showed up and just stop paying without even calling or informing the owner. There only way of living is a 1 year or 6 months contract. It's also part of the business nature for most major corp.

[kungfu cowboy]

I really don't care about the business aspect.

[LEGEND]

kung fu cowboy...well BLACK JACK ask from a business aspect.

[rogue]

No contract but we do EFT with 30 notice to cancel. My instructor was going nuts making sure people were paying on time.

[kungfu cowboy]

Oops, sorry! I thought it was a personal opinion thread.

[gazza99]

I have no contracts, but I do have a Contract with the Air Force to provide me with space and training stuff in return for a small % of my $$. This allows me to not worry about quantity of students, but only quality! Id much rather pay 10 bucks a month for a website, pass out cards, and teach out of a park, then to have to make the rent every month. I would not want to conflict buisiness with the students training, or compromise the art.

From a student perspective I see the benifits of a month to month thing, but it also allows students to skip classes or months without any financial reporcusion to them. This leads to people coming in and out as they please, whenever the mood suits them. However for the teacher who is paying bills, this could obviously hurt him seriously. Any student should be allowed to at least have a trial period of one-month before being forced to sign a contract.
You must look at it from a buisiness perspective as well, If I had signed on everyone who has ever tried my class to a contract I would have like 40 students right now, maybe 50 or 60! I could then afford to have my own place of buisiness, but I would have to maintain that level of income, if the student really wasnt meant for the MA, they may not come anymore after the first year, so you have to continually allow new people in. I would be raking in the cash, but I wouldnt have found good people, my life would be miserable, and quality training would be sacrificed. Many people that try martial arts think they will become bruce lee overnight, when they realize it takes work and practice, they soon find something more entertaining to do.

Gary

[kungfu cowboy]

From a student perspective I see the benifits of a month to month thing, but it also allows students to skip classes or months without any financial reporcusion to them. This leads to people coming in and out as they please, whenever the mood suits them.


Comin and going as I please per month is fair.

Ok, pay-per-lesson might be a little much, but month to month SHOULD BE THE LAW. Why the He ll should I be obligated to pay for a year when something might come up, like a decapitation or small bowel obstruction, or a change of heart?

Month to month is MUCH MORE than fair all around.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by kungfu cowboy



Comin and going as I please per month is fair.

Ok, pay-per-lesson might be a little much, but month to month SHOULD BE THE LAW. Why the He ll should I be obligated to pay for a year when something might come up, like a decapitation or small bowel obstruction, or a change of heart?

Month to month is MUCH MORE than fair all around.

I think there should be flexable way of paying to suit all kind of students. some people like to pay seasonal(3months), per month, 6 month, or a year. If you pay more ahead, maybe there are some disconts in compare to per month. So it is up to the students to figerout what is good for them.

[kungfu cowboy]

I would even consider a 3 or 6 month contract to be ok. I don't think there should be a penalty for time though.

[gazza99]

I agree kung fu cowboy, but I dont have to pay the rent on a school either!

[Black Jack]

Rogue,

I know a couple o' blokes who work it that way and I think it is a great method.

[Mr Punch]

I think a choice of contracts would be fair, with a discount option for advance/'bulk' buying. Most schools over here charge 8-10000 JPY (85USD/58GBP) a year for the initial insurance etc, plus the same for a monthly 'come as much as you like' fee.

This is fine if you have the time and dollar to come regularly: I was going to aiki two or three times a week, and then kungfu twice a week. But now I don't have either the time or money, so I'm in a battle with my sifu about paying per lesson. He says he won't have a pay per lesson scheme because people who aren't serious will come a couple of times, insist on some of the curriculum, and take advantage without giving back to the class: however, he knows I'm not like that. He wants 5000 for one lesson per month or the full 10000 for any more. No way! He's losing 3000 (which I offered per class up to three a month) and risking losing a good student to the wealth of Japanese schools out there. I've asked him about it, but now I'm losing patience (otherwise I wouldn't be writing on this board about it)! I could understand if it made business sense, but I'm sure he doesn't pay too much for renting the kwoon... Whatever.

Anyway: if I were running a school, I would offer a three month trial contract (to impose on the student that it's gonna be a long process) at a discount. Then I would offer six month to one year renewals, with discounts, plus the option of a higher rate single lesson fee. Even then, this would not be too restrictive as it would penalise shift workers etc. This should work for the school and the students, without 'compromising the art'.

[David Jamieson]

yes, it is necessary to have an oath a waiver and a contract for scheduled payments from the students. Trust me on this. The greater majority of students are always late with fees and many a time with the lamest excuses.

A contract helps them understand commitment. This is how it is when you want to rent an apartment you apy your rent at the beginning of the month, not the end yes? This is how it is with your dentist, your doctor and every other area of your life.

Pay your darn fees you slackers!

Kung Fu Cowboy, all about me me me, you sould be in opera.

There should be no extra fees associated with anything , but the person who signs the contract to lease the school shouldn't get stiffed because his students won't pay their fees on time.

It is also irritating to the sihings in your school who are forced to badger you as part of their commitment to the school.

The only one who looks bad is YOU, the one who FAILS to keep his end of the bargain with his teacher.
Try to go to a gym without a contract for fee payment, try to get in a continuing education class or a regular class in any area or field of study.

Why do people think they deserve to get the time and effort of someone else for nothing? Ridiculous!

When your "contract" is done, you can walk or stay.

That's my rant, do your fair share.

peace

[Mr Punch]

Kind of...

if you're paying per lesson, you should not expect to get the same quality of tuition as those who put in the hours week in week out. But Kung Lek, nobody's suggesting getting it for nothing... and as for the people who look bad because they're not doing the work, look at it this way: they are pocket money, and if they're not gonna bother, the teacher should feel free to get them doing chain punches for the first six months of class! That's their problem! They will still only be doing the same as anyone else who puts in the time in the first three weeks, and then they're only ripping themselves off.

[Shadow Dragon]

I have never experienced a Kwoon or Dojo that used contracts or similar.

Most of them asked for monthly or bi-monthly payments.
When we joined we signed a waiver with the school rules and when and how we need to pay for our lessons.
Simple method.
Sign-up fee + 2 months lessons = 1st payment.

After that we were never asked to buy more than weapons/style specific gear and maybe a few optional study aids.

Examination fees and Seminar fees are paid about 2~3 weeks in advance of the event.

Monthly fees are paid in an enevlope that is marked per person and has 12 blocks marked for payment dates.
These envelopes double as the receipt of payment.
This envelopes are at the schools entrance and you simply grab yours, insert money and hand over to Sifu/Sensei.

Other expenses are paid directly to the Sifu in exchange for goods that we either wanted or were required to buy, we were always forewarned about upcoming expenses.

This has held true for a few styles and schools that I have attended.Personally, I don't think that a Student who can't/won't pay on time for whatever reason shows dedication to the Kwoon and his Sifu/Style.
If extra-ordinary circumstances prevent the student from paying he should discuss it in advance with his Sifu or school head.

Peace.

[TenTigers]

Way to Go, Kung Lek! I have to agree with you. My landlord is not in the slightest bit interested in whys or wherefores,neither is the guy who insures us if Cowboy stubbs his toe in class, or the power authority. We offer a class, or even a free week (what's another person on the floor going to cost?) then they make a commitment. The contract can be cancelled-if they don't want to be there, we really don't want them here. They will talk **** in the lockerrooms, and that can spread like a cancer in your school. Also, if it turns out that they were on their best behaviour during the interview but actually have the wrong attitude, I don't want to be legally bound to them either. But-we don't nickle and dime either. Meaning that if they don't come they still pay. Like at Gold's Gym-you paid for a year membershhip-it's your responsibility to get there and train, nobody's going to hold your hand. If you make payments on your car, do you tell the finance company, "I didn't drive it this week, do I still have to pay?"
We look only for serious, dedicated students, and we offer quite alot for what they pay for. They can train everyday, twice a day, up to ten classes a week, for the same price, no charge for extra classes. There is one catch, however. We expect them to train at least two to three times per week. They can come more, but if they can't make it at least twice a week, we will not accept them as students., and we've asked others to leave who weren't working hard, or coming in often enough.
"perfection is our goal-excellence will be tolerated"

[kungfu cowboy]

kung lek wrote:
Kung Fu Cowboy, all about me me me, you sould be in opera

Not true, not true! Any of my hypothetical situations would of course apply to the general population of students, not just myself in particular.

Anyway, I just stated what I would find to be the ideal situation, which is paying for services as you receive them, and then what I would consider to be fair to all concerned if the contract thing is a must have.

[David Jamieson]

Kungfu cowboy - nothing personal, you provided the opportunity for a little levity. thanks and keep posting that off the wall stuff that you do :D

peace

[Black Jack]

Maybe I am out of it today,

Do other educational systems use a long term contract method?

Does a piano teacher, a violin teacher, a creative writing class, ski lessons, skeet shooting, that sort of thing?

Firearm classes do not use a long term (12 month)contract, a number of boxing gyms work on a pay per you go basis. Land lords are renting you space to live in from which another viable accounts recievable could be renting that space if you were to wig out and break the contract, I think that is a tad different than if two people find themselves on seperate paths with the teachers training methods or personalities.

What do you do if you find a student has trouble paying, serious trouble because of life responsiblities and he has to quit, do you trash his credit score, thus preventing the student from getting other goods and services, do you sue the student for the remaining balance, do you sell off the contract to third party collectors from which the student is sent into a nightmare of phone calls?

These are honest questions not attacks. Just curious to your methods of collecting.

[David Jamieson]

Black Jack -

You pay your tuition to go to college or university before you get to take a single class, you miss any classes and you don't get that money back.

Firearms classes are entirely different and though they are "pay as you go" they are very short term, often times not much longer than a weekend or two. You cannot gain kungfu in a weekend or two as many of us are well aware.

If you skip on your landlord, you are as much a cretin as skipping on anything really don't you think? And finally, if a student shows a lot of promise and has little money, it is desirable to have a good student as there are so few of them. PLenty of people who "want" to learn, and a miniscule fraction who are able.

Oh yeah, the boxing thing. I haven't been to a club where you don't pay your fees up front before you use the equipment. And if you want a professional coach you will pay for that. A lot of boxing clubs don't have much more than equipment to use, a ring to use and some of them even have a shower! (-some- of them :D )

In the end the contract assures that you will show up, show up on time and you will be prepaed to learn, it also assures you that the teacher will show up, show up on time and be prepared to teach. The contract is mutual and it generally doesn't supercede the rights of the student. If it does, then question it by all means, you as a student shouldn't get stiffed either because some silk pajama guy has slick business savvy and you don't.

Read anything carefully that you are asked to sign. If you are unsure ask to take the contract with you and have it read by someone who understands these things before you sign. That is totally reasonable and there shouldn't be a problem with it, but do understand that distrust is not the best foot forward when signing up for something like martial arts. Now if you are signing an agreement with your ex... well that's different hahahaha.

peace

[awakenwired]

I don't mind contracts, that bind me to paying a month to month rate. It's the ones that would lock you in for a year or something that I would find to be kind of dangerous. Like those cell phone contracts. I don't mind paying month to month, if I happen to be late (which would never happen) I would gladly pay a late fee or something if that was in the contract. Much like an apt. contract. But it would be closer to the contract of renting an apt., and not leasing one for a year.

[Black Jack]

Kung Lek,

I agree on a lot of your points, I am just curious to see how others view it, people have to pay the bills, but the buyer should be aware of what those contracts can contain, as a person who deals with credit on a daily bases, I have seen its damage.

Just to be a smartass, the tution on a college course is only for a term, and yes if you cancel after 2 weeks you don't get your tution back, but colleges at least the one's down here don't require you to sign for a a years worth o' lessons.

I only have problems with 12 month contracts, I find them a bit alarming for students, 3 month I could agee with, but anything more than that seems to focus more on the almighty greenback than in a students wellbeing.

I still think rogues method, billing backed by a credit card, 30 day notice, is the best bet for a student new in the martial arts.

[PaulLin]

Well, I don't oppose 12 months contract. People just need to research more before they sign up one like that. Any longer than that is not needed and suspecious.

[Black Jack]

Can I ask why a 12 month financial contract is not suspecious?

btw, what kind of contract does a bjj school work with, is there a contract?

[dnc101]

The instructor should be able to run his business the way he sees fit. If you don't like contracts and that is what one school requires, don't go to that school. Shop around for a school that has the facilities and training you want.

And it is NOT the governments role to get anyone the deal they want on martial arts classes! Personally, I don't want them involved in my training in any way. Once those jerks get started regulating any part of any thing, they don't stop untill they have it all under their thumb. Then most of what you pay will be to the beaurocracy they set up to keep you in line and tell you what you can and can't learn as well as how you pay. BS!

[David Jamieson]

The instructor should be able to run his business the way he sees fit.

within the rule of the law and the accepted boundaries of the social construct the school exists in.

remember that when teaching the arts you are dealing with people and not commodoties. They live, they think they breath and perhaps most importantly, they feel.

No one likes to invest their time into long study and feel like they have made a mistake. A contract can be a mutual assurance that this is less likely to take place.

As for the whole government thing, I agree, it would be a lot better if people would just innately treat each other better and not have to be put into a legal position of treating each other well. Sadly, this is not true for a great deal of our so called "peace time" societal activities with each other.

peace

[kungfu cowboy]

Yeah! A lot of the human race stinks! But thanks to the Human Genome Project, soon we will be creating members that smell however we please! Woo-hoo! Science!

[Shadow Dragon]

Personally, I find rent contracts and recreational activity contracts very different.

Why do most Sports clubs offer 1yr specials and so on, because they know that most of the people that sign up will not last longer than 2 months on average. It is a marketing ploy to get ready cash, most of them happily sign more people than they could/wish to accomodate.
Same with many a BB Program.

I am also against schools that force a certain amount of attendance and will cancel a contract if attendance falls below a certain level.
This in my Opinion are worse than McDojo as they kinda force a Student to attend, even though he might have other commitments and thus get a student body that is not training with 100% intensity when they do attend.

MA is a recreational activity, a sport even, and should be treated as such.
Some might disagree here, but unless you need MA to earn a living it is thus.
Contracts are fine, but should not be confined to a once of payment and should be flexible enough to allow for changes in a students life.
i.e.; Cancellation, lower fees for fewer classes, flexible training schedule, etc.

I need to go on an overseas Trip for my Company and thus are forced to skip a few lessons.So should I be punished for missing lessons due to being successful in my carreer, that gives me money to allow me to pay my Sifu.

Personally, some of the people that replied got too harsh a stance on what they expect of their students, and what they can dicate in their own kwoon.

You are running a scool that offers a service(MA instruction) in exchange for money and not a cult or military.
Not saying that the student can walk allover you either, but success is finding the golden line between your and your students need.

Peace.

P.S.: Playing with lit matches here.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Black Jack
Can I ask why a 12 month financial contract is not suspecious?

btw, what kind of contract does a bjj school work with, is there a contract?

Here is my reasoning:

a school should have per month, per season, per 6 month, and per year. As students pay ahead more, discount greater. But alway suggest the beginners to choose a shorter term just in case they find themselves not fit the arts.

Why 12 months not all suspecious? That is there are many people out there who have very stable life schedual, they can make yearly plan. But almost no one would make detail plan above a year. However, if the 12 months plan is the shortest plan, or there are pressure to push long time plan as the 12 months or above, that is highly suspecious.

Do you think that is reasonable? :)

I don't know any BJJ, never took any of that class, can't make any opinion.

[Black Jack]

If a educated student agrees on it then a 12 month contract sounds reasonable.

But students can vote with there dollars in the end, which to a commerical matial art school is what really matters, if a person finds a contract to be a tool which is he uncomfortable with, go down the street and find a teacher who does not use one.

[MonkeySlap Too]

I have no problems with contracts. When I had my public school, after the 'introductory' private lessons the minimum time a person could join was three months. Why? Because they would see no benefit before that time. By encouraging thier attendance (I wanted them to join AND stay, not just pay dollars for empty floorspace.) they often fulfilled thier commitment enthusiatically. Those that could not fulfill such a commitment often lacked the mental fortitude to learn anyways. I always maintained a high retention and attendance level. I did not see myself as teaching dodge ball lessons, to me it was professional education. You follow the course, and you pay for it just like you would for any other worthwhile training.

I always accomodated special circumstances as well. I let one student who was going into the military pay for three months, but attend six months of training. Another fellow came to me after six weeks and told me he had to move. I cancelled his contract, and his classmates helped him move. But the people who wagged thier tounges about training and decided not to show? They paid anyhow. They learned a valuable lesson, and I got to keep the lights on for my students.

Contracts in and of themselves are not a bad tool. But it does require ethics on the part of the school owner AND the students to use it well. I can't tell you how many people are surprised when they have to pay for lessons...

[Liokault]

HE HE

I have not had to pay for a class for a few years now as my teacher operates a policy where by any one who has been training with him for 10 years gets to train free.

I do volintarily pay for the sunday class (about which my teacher protests every week) as the numbers are very low and as its a 3 hour class its to great.

[Shaolindynasty]

Wow, I alsways thought of paying for lessons as a form of support for your school and sifu. Schools need things rent, equipment etc.

I don't expect the sifu to pay for it all out of his own pocket so he can have the "privilage" of teaching me an art i want to learn from him:rolleyes:

I haven't ever been to a school that requires contracts but if I did I wouldn't mind paying. I actually think about the choices I make before I jump in with both feet.

You are paying money to keep the school open, trust me I have never heard of legitamate martial arts teachers being rich. Chances are they need the contracts just to get by.

People are to greedy and are ungreatful. In the past schools survived by donations of students, could you see that today? No school's would be open.

[lkfmdc]

People want big schools with lots of room, they want all the equipment, they want facilities, they want nice changing rooms, lockers, some want showers, etc. They want classes night and day, 7 days a week

most, like the "cowboy" want to just pay when they want to and not when they don't..... yet they fail to see that the two desires are contradictory

you want to pay $50 a month and not sign a contract and pay whenever you want, you are gonna get a school that is space rented in a dance studio for once or twice a week, no equipment and no facilities. And when your instructor goes broke and needs to get a real job, bye bye lessons

Did you go to college and argue with the registrar that it should be less per credit?

Do you go to the supermarket and haggle over the price of rice?

Do you tell your own landlord, "let me stay here this month and I'll get around to paying you maybe next month"

It's a wonder people do this profession at all

[MonkeySlap Too]

I would like to think that the bulk of the dislike towards contracts is a result of the fact that most beginning martial art students cannot employ 'caveat emptor'. They just don't know what they are walking into, as very few schools are very clear on what they are teaching and for what purpose. The end result is people feel ripped-off.

But IKfmdc -you are so f@cking right. There is a sense of entitlement out there that is really undeserved. People are always amazed when I won't teach them. They really think the choice is only theirs.

[BrentCarey]

Some of these points have been mentioned or implied, but I will summarize my input on the subject.

Running a successful MA school is very difficult. Most students are fickle - they come and go quickly. The owner needs to recruit at a certain rate and retain at a certain rate. In addition, to seasonal fluctuations, movies and television cause trends that come and go.

By the time a school conforms to all of the restrictions the MA community pressures to avoid "selling out", the profit margin is tight.

Some students pay regularly, some don't. Students show up, or not, cancel without notice, etc, etc.

People don't seem to want to allow MA schools to market agressively, enforce contracts, make a profit on sales, or charge what the market will bear for services.

People should understand that their school has business obligations that are quite separate from the matter of teaching martial arts. Most good teachers are not very good businessmen. This means that they need an even greater margin for error.

Contracts are a good way for schools to have something resembling consistency and reliable income. How would you like it if you had no idea from one month to the next how much money you were going to make? If you were living paycheck-to-paycheck (as many schools are), you would be in a tough situation.

It takes quite a bit of business planning and financial management to make a purely month-to-month approach work. The pay-per-lesson approach is pretty near to impossible. Would you rather your instructor sat around hassling with these details, or would you rather they didn't have to worry about it and could concentrate on training?

School owners get frustrated with how fickle people can be. They show up one day and want to be Bruce Lee, then drop classes the next day. Do they call you and tell you they are going to drop? No, for the most part, they just don't show up, then screen your phone calls.

Do not begrudge MA schools the right to use contracts as a business tool to improve the financial health of their business. Most instructors don't like having to use them, but really must. Many instructors (myself included) don't even like that they have to charge money for classes.

Let's remember that the business and the school are really two separate entities in a way. Neither would exist without the other, but school owners must run the school like a school, and the business like a business. Those two goals are not always in harmony and compromises must be made.

Peace,

Brent Carey

[shinbushi]

Originally posted by awakenwired
I don't mind contracts, that bind me to paying a month to month rate. It's the ones that would lock you in for a year or something that I would find to be kind of dangerous. Like those cell phone contracts. I don't mind paying month to month, if I happen to be late (which would never happen) I would gladly pay a late fee or something if that was in the contract. Much like an apt. contract. But it would be closer to the contract of renting an apt., and not leasing one for a year.
In LA you usually have to sign a year or 2 appartment lease and if you leave early and they cannot fill the apartment you pay. I use contracts but will let students out for good reasons. One of those reasons is notI am lazy and don't feel like going to class We don't pressure anyone to join if they don't want to make a year commitment I don't want them. For our dojo rank is based not on testing but me weatching them each and every class and when they are ready promoting them. That takes a lot of effort on my part. I don't want people coming in for a month or 2 and leaving.

[shinbushi]

i also only ding someones credit when they have been a real jerk.
My wife and I used to bend over backwards for our students all the time. And each and evey time they screwed us. The good students are the ones we don't have to bend over backwards for. The pay and come to train.

[Black Jack]

My main point is the one already stated, cavet emptor, but in the strict sense of the pure beginner.

For the contract system to work it needs good ethics and understanding from both the teacher and the student. One has to be upfront about what he teaches and one has to know what he really wants.

It is a fact though that you do see the contract system abused very often when one of those two don't add up. I think 3 month renewable contracts are great, 12 month contracts I can see a problem of teacher abuse.

[Black Jack]

Credit dings are not really credit dings, they can cause a lot of problems in regards to getting other credit lines from A grade consumer lenders, they can have lingering damage, I don't see it as something to be proud of.

I have seen these dings on credit reports before, one actually from a well known bujikan dojo who signed on a newbie 18 year old kid to a 12 month contract, he pre-paid for the month found he did not understand what he was getting into, both time wise and monetary, the lad had no martial experiance or guidence, and asked to leave after only 4 lessons.

The teacher sent his contract off to collections and there it remained on his CBR.

I don't call that good business.

[Merryprankster]

Contracts are a good thing.

They keep the lights on and my training space available.

By the lesson or by the month is going the way of the dodo.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Black Jack
Credit dings are not really credit dings, they can cause a lot of problems in regards to getting other credit lines from A grade consumer lenders, they can have lingering damage, I don't see it as something to be proud of.

I have seen these dings on credit reports before, one actually from a well known bujikan dojo who signed on a newbie 18 year old kid to a 12 month contract, he pre-paid for the month found he did not understand what he was getting into, both time wise and monetary, the lad had no martial experiance or guidence, and asked to leave after only 4 lessons.

The teacher sent his contract off to collections and there it remained on his CBR.

I don't call that good business.

Very true, I don't think any newbies should go for long term plan. They have to know if the place fits them or not. Any school that either not making it clear or pushing for long term plan to who ever they can catch, it is simply not care of the students and not worthy of joining. If they don't care about you fit or not, only care about money, then you don't espect to learn good arts form them no matter they has arts or not.

[lkfmdc]

how about 30 year old men who show up a few times, use a credit card to buy over $350 in equipment then disappear and try to charge back the equipment without returning it?

how about 28 year old women who pay up front for 3 months, take 3 lessons, disappear, disconnect their phones, but strangely show up the next year and want refunds?? school was open, classes were taught, instructors paid, rent paid, electric, you get the point, where were they?

there are a lot of shady people in the world, be a "nice guy" and you can lose your school PERIOD

[TenTigers]

look, I don't really enjoy contracts, but as you can see from posts like Ikmfdc's that it is the nature of the beast. I always tell my guys-"If I win lotto, I'll build you a temple, no charge, but you can bet the next students will have to stand outside in the rain for three days!";-) so far I haven't hit yet. oh, and btw, we have been known to carry quite a few students who have fallen on hard times, heck, I've even put them up in the school-luckily, we have showers, bedroom,kitchen, and cots. -old school.

[Lisa]

I would rather not sign a contract. I can see why an instructor would want them, but I don't think they're as necessary as some of you are making them out to be. My sifu has been in business for 22 years now and does quite well without contracts. He charges monthly fees regularly, but will also charge per class for people who can't make it in very often.

[neito]

-i think a sifu should either totally organize their school as a business or keep it non-profit. the instructors i've known who have tried to make money on the side and worry about their other job have had more stress than its worth.

-also i think a 3-4 month contract is reasonable. (1)people will not be so afraid to make such a small commitment, thus more people will try it out and maybe even stay.(2) if the person is the quiter type you will at least see them for about half of the 3 month period.(3) as someone mentioned earlier, it will give students enough time to see some progress.

-also i have no problem with a nominal start up fee. an extra $25 in the initial month is a small price to pay for having the chance to really try a style out.

[joedoe]

So why is it OK for a gym to sign people up for 3 months to a year, but not for a MA school?

Our school charges per lesson, but I don't see why it is so wrong to try and get a commitment out of students. The sifu who is running the school has made a commitment by taking out leases, insurance etc. I do not think it is unreasonable for them to seek a financial commitment out of their students to ensure that the school can continue to run. Sure this is open to abuse by less-than-honest people, but then any business transaction is.

Just like any other sale surrounding a service, the contracts should allow escape clauses for the buyer. If they are not happy with what they are getting, they should be free to take their business elsewhere.

The long and the short of it is that it is not a crime, nor is it immoral to make money out of teaching MA.

[Shadow Dragon]

Nothing against contracts, but they should be flexible enough to fit different criteria and not just the schools.

I know many a kwoon/Dojo that have been successfull without contracts and maintain a high student retention.

It is my belief that student retention/dedication should come from the student/teacher relationship or satisfaction of studying under a Sifu and not from a signed peace of paper.

But than I always was old-fashioned.

I would rather train in a park with my Sifu than in a high quality Dojo that forces me to a long time contract.
The Instruction level does not increase by a high profile location and the addition of showers/change rooms.

But than I am after good MA Instruction and not creature comfort, etc.
Peace.

[Serpent]

What about the gwan dao, pole, spear, broadswords, kicking pads and focus mitts, gloves and guards, etc.? You carry all those down to the park everyday too?

[Shadow Dragon]

Serpent.

Yes, there are many Students and Sifu that do just that.
Most know what weapon will be trained and so it is not neccessary to lug the lot.
But in most cases it will be the car that carries the goods anyway.

I need to carry my gear(Weapon) to the Kwoon anyway as we only rent a place for classes and have no fixed storage and need to take everything back home.
Same for Weekend practice in the Park.

Normally goes like that, bag for clothing and pads, Shoulder bag to hold Weapons.

But replace the Park with an old empty factory hall in the suburbs vs a convenient air-conditioned downtown kwoon.
Same thing.

Peace.