New San Shou Fight Clip

[SanShou Guru]

Highlights from Kung Fu Super Star event in New Orleans June 8th can be found here (http://marvinperry.org/framesix2.htm) (the last clip ). The tape can be made available if people are interested.

[shaolinboxer]

WOW!

[Archangel]

How often are takedown defenses drilled in San Shou training? I see alot of high amplitude throws and takedowns and it is a little surprising.

[guohuen]

Great stuff. Good solid kicks.

[SanShou Guru]

Arch,

We train defense all the time but it still happens. The big slam on the clip is done by Albert Pope. He was a champion High School wrestler as well as having trained in San Shou in Boston for years so he is very good at the big slams.

For defense we focus on avoid, counter, neutralize, control, minimize, earn.

Avoid - stay out of range and strike.
Counter - throw them instead.
Neutralize - root out and prevent them from getting position to throw you.
Control - fall on your terms to prevent the points/injury
Minimize - take them down with you to prevent 2 or 3 point throws.
Earn - if they are going to get the throw, make them work for it by relaxing and making yourself heavy.

[SanShou Guru]

And people don't think sidekicks can work.

[lkfmdc]

plus, remember that in those clips, most are the TOP guys, when two top guys are exchanging kicks, punches and knees and know how to throw, it can happen, but put a good San Shou guy against someone who is a one trick pony, well, a lot of guys have found out that is not the way to go

[Archangel]

Can you be a little more specific, you described some good principles but what kind of techniques do you guys impose.

Avoid - Is it mostly footwork and circling

Counter - Do you defend then counter with a throw (like a ****zer), what throws are the most common here.

Neutralize - How is this done, underhooks, overhooks?

Control - Does this mean break falling, I'm not sure what "on your terms means"

[wiz cool c]

Marvin Perry Verse Chung Lee ?

[SanShou Guru]

I can't be much more specific without writing a novel about it. There are so many counters and some work better at different times and work better for different people/body types.

Counters would be a counter throw and they are mostly trips and simple take downs. There is a good example about 1/2 through the clip (more a neutralization) after the knee shot. Albert (back to the camera gets thrown but twists to land second. Also near the end when he grabs the ropes (not legal but better than getting slammed) is another example of awareness and neutralizing/controlling.

Control means you break fall or otherwise save yourself a major hit. In the major slam in the clip you will see that the fighter getting slammed makes not effort to break fall but just holds on for dear life. There is another clip of Albert on the page and in that one you see more high amplitude throws.

[SanShou Guru]

Marvin vs. Cung will never happen because Marvin walks around at 200 and Cung at 185. I doubt Cung would want to take the risk of fighting up that much against a fighter that good. We would love it though.

Rudi Ott (ISKA, IKF Middle Champion and former teammate of Marvin's) came by our school last week and spared Marvin. Marvin did not use his hands due to a finger sprain and Rudi still only managed to lad four techniques in four rounds (two leg kicks, a side kick and a hook punch). We are trying to get Marvin some bigger killers to fight but it's like he is radio active. Nobody wants to go near him.

[Cipher]

Sounds cool. I am at work but when I get home I am going to D/L the clip. Are you guys selling a full video from the tourney?

Cung Vs. Marvin would be great.

[SanShou Guru]

I have not decided if I'm going to sell copies. There are only six fights but they are good ones. If enough people seem interested I would clean it up some more and sell a VHS and a DVD versions (gotta loves macs) for like $10 and $15 plus shipping or some such through SanShou.com (the sanshou.com webmaster, Brent Hamby, said he could help me set it up. I would also have to clear it with the event host Shawn Lui but that would not be a big problem most likely.)

[fa_jing]

I know it's not going to look pretty, but still, I was surprised to see certain errors:

Leading with kicks, although it seemed like a pretty effective tactic!

Lack of blocking against same. You can't let someone lead with a kick to your head and then it lands. That's poor defense.

When kicking, flailing arms out for balance. Not following up kicks with punches.

Please don't take offense! But I think I could do pretty well in this arena, especially after a year/18 months or so more of training, focusing especially on the conditioning and throws aspect. I do plan on competing in amatuer events at some point.
It's not that different from what we do in sparring.

-FJ

[SanShou Guru]

Well considering the fighters in the clips include;

Three US National Team Members
Three USAWKF National Champions
4+ IKF Title holders.
And
A 2001 World Bronze Medalist

I would assume they know what they are doing. Leading with kicks works if it works, if it doesn’t you don’t do it. Obviously you should block any lead kick but after you fight come back and let us know who easy it is to do more than just block. If you look at the clip of Marvin’s last amateur fights you can see that in the last fight the fighter did a good job of blocking his head but could generate no offense.

I see no major defensive form breaks in the “Arm Flailing” that some of the fighters did. The Mechanics of a body kick and a head kick are different as well as there being a lower counter risk with head kicks. You have less of a chance to be countered hard after a head kick than a body kick.

Let us know how your first REAL fight goes and see if your mechanics hold throughout the fight. Theory and practices are two different things. Many of the lead kicks landed because the fighter getting kicked was looking to catch a body height kick.

[fa_jing]

Thank you SanShou Guru.

Even in my more-controlled sparring experiences, it is hard for me to keep good form. But I do try to do so as much as possible. Needs practice, right?

Well, flailing your arms isn't nearly as bad as losing your balance when your kick - which I, refreshingly, did not see. Hey, even Bruce Lee swung his arms all over the place when he kicked high in his movies - if you know what you're doing, go for it. But in our style, we keep the hands up or one down in front of the groin. The main thing is guarding your groin, and being able to follow up with punches.

I know it was a highlight clip, and people like to get excited about the kicks and the throws, that's what makes San Shou distinctive. I assume that the bulk of the bouts display more emphasis on punching? Or is it that kicking is scored more highly than punching?

-FJ

[SanShou Guru]

Well two of those are my students and I'm still working on their kicking mechanics, KO or not you have to recover from a kick ready to kick again or punch.

Punches are only worth one point kick are worth tow to the torso and one to the head.

[Cipher]

What about leg kicks and knee attacks? Are there different points given for different punches?

Is it legal to use the forarm to strike with? Thanks.

[SanShou Guru]

You can see the various rules here (http://www.angelfire.com/sd2/kingofsanda/index.html) but knees would be scored like kicks. A leg kick that lands without the person makeing an effort to dodge or block scores 1 point. If a kick is caught or countered at the same time with another kick or punch then it is no points (it wasn't clean then was it).

[lkfmdc]

I think San Shou Guru meant to post a link to the king of San Da site which is also an angelfire site

http://www.angelfire.com/sd2/kingofsanda

but thanks for the extra hits for the gym :)

[SanShou Guru]

Yea, I fixed it :p

[lkfmdc]

those who have followed the shows I have promoted over the years remember at least three individuals who were "gonna show the real stuff" until the day of the fights. A certain "champion" who had challenged Al Loriaux (arguably poind for pound the best US san shou fighter ever) got beaten into submission in two rounds by a four month beginner with no fights.... that was the best one :P