Internal principles and the Wing Chun world

[red5angel]

One thing I learned this weekend, and it was really struck home for me, was that wingchun as a soft art can very much be considered to be internal. Why do I say this?
Well, lets start by taking economy of motion. If you dont have any internal power, dont know how to unify your entire body behind your actions then you have to work with speed and strength, making large moves to build up power for your strike. This in turn leads to having to work on speed because you project so much that if you arent fast you never land a blow. Now imagine being able to move mere inches or centimeters to deliver the same power! You learn to utilize every joint in your body, and all the energy in each part to put that power into your target. how about absorbing it and being sensitive enough to take your opponents energy into you and utilising it to "load the catapult" as it was put to me. Like a laserbeam striking a mirror, you can reflect that energy back but also have the ability to put your energy behind it as well.
Like Michael pointed out Carl demonstrates this energy by touching you and sending this energy into you and its powerful! I couldn't imagine being hit with this sort of power! Its much more substantial and powerful then external muscular-derived power. this is something you infortunately cannot explain well in writing but must feel for yourself.
This kind of thing is accessible to anyone, and one of the reasons I believe wing chun is considered a womans art, because you dont need strength, size or speed to accomplish these things, you just need to train, and be precise, and it will come!

[sunkuen]

How does it feel to always be singing to the choir!!!

[red5angel]

Alot of the discussion I see and the level of wingchun I have seen in the past tells me its not the choir I am singing to Sunkuen. I think you would be pleasantly surprised to see and feel what I am talkinga bout.

[sunkuen]

I think you'd be surprised to find out that what you describe is what everybody else is doing already!!! Your newfound discovery is everybody elses old news. Welcome to the internal aspect of wing chun. I hope Carl taught you guy's the chi kung excercises that go along with it.

p.s. You've got such a pretty voice red5!!!

[red5angel]

We have learned a lot of warmups and excersises that are applicable to what we are doing, and we have seen and felt what it does through Carl.
Funny though how when a thread on wingchun:internal or external comes along, no one can seem to agree really, even here on this forum.:eek: that is why I felt I should mention it, the other stuff I have seen and experienced hasnt even come close and I would be willing to say that most of it out there is again paying word of mouth to the idea of internal while flexing those muscles and working those speed drills.

[sunkuen]

It seems to me that the use of speed and strength is a no-no in all lineages.

[red5angel]

I would agree, but sometimes it doesn't feel or look that way. I have seen a few post on here about speed drills as well as how should I do push ups or situps and things like that. It seems that information hasnt got out to all our WC brothers and sisters. I am finding that I used to do those for health but am finding that just doing the drills and wing chun I am doing keeps me in pretty good shape, and I run as well, to get the stamina up for when I start hitting tournemants.
Its incredible the internal power that can be drawn upon, sparringa little with Carl this weekend he would hit a spot not very quickly and never with big exaggerated movements and you would just get sent flying!

[OdderMensch]

Funny though how when a thread on wingchun:internal or external comes along, no one can seem to agree really, even here on this forum

pehaps thats is in part due to the "flexible" meanings of "internal" and "external" I now of no clear standard other than the "three internal arts" of (i think) Tai Chi, Xing Yi, and bagua(?).0


If youve read the "sword polishers record" you know the crux of the arguement.

[Rill]

It seems to me that the use of speed and strength is a no-no in all lineages.
...

I have seen a few post on here about speed drills as well as how should I do push ups or situps and things like that. It seems that information hasnt got out to all our WC brothers and sisters.
On the contrary, whilst speed is something you should not rely on to do well, it is certainly an aspect of your training that you should be aware of. Speed is part of your skill level, and is naturally attained through relaxation - the more you relax, the faster your muscle groups can move and switch groups to make your strikes and movements faster. We all train speed in this way whether we mean to or not - however, it should be noted that speed without accuracy is pretty well useless.

Training speed by deliberately relaxing, or doing things like chain punching at high speeds will allow you to move fast all the time regardless of whether you're fighting or trying to catch something you just knocked off the table. Having extra speed gives you room to move if you muck up and need to recover from something and it allows you to strike before your opponent can react - even with the opponent in contact and using chi sao.

Do you need speed to deliver a high power punch? To a point. A strike is just a fast push, the faster you move the more power you'll deliver - the same way a bullet will pierce a sheet of metal (like a suit of armour) but an arrow won't. Both will still do some serious damage, but if you want to kill someone, you're going to be better off using a bullet because it hits faster and doesn't give them as much time to react.

red5angel - just because you don't train it or Carl hasn't explained it to you, doesn't mean it's not useful. We don't train double arm single chi sao, but it's still a useful exercise.

[AndrewS]

RedAngel,

you might be surprised to discover that the 'internal' guys who actually go out and fight do loads of 'pushups and situps'. Bodyweight callesthentics are a frequently used tool in a variety of forms of Xingyi and Ba Gau. Chen Taiji seems to like its squats (isn't that what working those low stances is, in one sense).

Learning and then developing the body mechanics of a martial art is a life study, and different approaches will be taken at each phaze of one's development.

The division of 'internal and external' is fairly artificial- one devised as a way of popularizing certains arts to the Beijing public in the early twentieth century. There are distinct 'internal' mechanics and teaching approaches, but these can blur.

Philipino martial arts are supposedly 'external', but when Tom Bisio showed up at Vince Black's school, Vince was supposedly quite impressed with his 'internal' skill. Tim Cartmell contends that a number of grapplers demonstrate 'internal' mechanics. Ken Fish has some very nice articles stating that some of the best internal stuff he saw in China was from Northern Shaolin teachers.

All of these folks- Vince Black, Tim Cartmell, Ken Fish- are well known 'internalists' of superb reputation who train fighters. Vince Black and Tim Cartmell both use body weight calls and do some *serious* conditioning training. By all accounts Ken does also, but I've never heard first hand accounts of his curriculm.

Your contention that 'internal' power is not derived from muscle is frankly a reflection of your degree of magical thinking and unquestioning hero worship. Motion (besides collapsing to the floor) requires the use of muscles. It's which ones, and to what degree that make the difference. Stop parrotting dogma and start thinking. I have no issue with Carl or with Ken's method- I've heard naught but good about them- but I have no patience for sheep in any line, including my own. Think, experiment, study, and learn. None of this is magic, just work and skill.

Andrew

[red5angel]

Andrew and Rill - Obviously I disagree and not because of "magical thinking" or "Hero worship" (But nice of you to slip that title in where it is inapropriate and uncalled for andrew.). Its from experience. Sure you can do speed drills and strength drills but then you are missing the point. With sensitivity you dont need speed. Old Taichi masters have been said to read the minds of thier opponents and move before they move, not because they were faster, many were much much older then thier opponents, but because they were able to feel the intent of the opponent.
How would you explain Yip Man? I wonder how many pushups and situps he had to do to be as good as he was? He wasnt exactly packed with muscle, and he beat Leung Sheung, who was much bigger then him. I just got done reading a book on a top internal artist who at the age of 70 couldnt be touched by any of his younger students. He advocated doing the forms slowly and with intent, and plenty of sensitivty drills, but discouraged his students from doing even the simplest of excersises not related to the art.
Sure you can muscle someone in chi sao if you want, but thats not what wing chun wants from you. Instead of doing all those pushups and situps and speed drills try sensitivity drills, working on your structure, see if something diffent doesnt come from it. I have been hit by external guys and internal guys and internal guys seem to have more substance.
Anyway, doing the pushups and situps and speed drils and the weight lifting is a way to go, but its not the wing chun path and that path fades with each passing year as your strength and speed succumb to age.

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by red5angel
but its not the wing chun path and that path fades with each passing year as your strength and speed succumb to age. Careful, careful, little boy... With such little experience, who are you to say?

[red5angel]

Enter the whip - you are correct, at 29 how would I understand the toll old age takes but I can look at old people and see that they loose strength, flexibility and speed with each passing year. So although I may not be able to empathize with old people, I understand thier problems through observation.

[pvwingchun]

If you are stronger I beat you with speed, if you are faster I beat you with technique, If your techniques (sensitivity being one technique) are better I must beat you with more speed in my technique. You still need speed with sensitivity because if you are slooow as a turtle all the sensitivity in the world will not help you.

[red5angel]

pvwingchun - the point is that sensitivity and structure are availabel to everyone. Some people can get speed and get really fast, some cannot. With sensitivity it allows you to make up for that deficit of speed and the structure and strong root allow you to make up for it with strength. Its why practitioners of internal arts are often practcing thier art effectively well into thier 70's and 80's.
Also I dont want to be worried so much about technique in that you cant play the game of chess while fighting. If you have to stop to think you will loose, if you teach yourself to respond naturally you have a much better chance. Its why we practice forms, the forms give us the precision and "muscle memory" to allow us to be effective when we are fighting and things just happen.

[old jong]

Forms give us a lot! If you mean correctness of structure and alignment by "precision and muccle memory" ,I agree!

Chi-sao does it's task by allowing us to use and test all of this in a non determined way.(In a dynamic environment and with a resisting opponent)!....Just coul'nt resist that one!...

And finally,various Wing Chun drills allow us to work on a specified motion.

Now, some like to add free sparring. Nothing wrong with this if you are careful not to transform your Wing Chun into something else.

[pvwingchun]

red

I agree but,


if you are slooow as a turtle all the sensitivity in the world will not help you.

No you don't want to think just respond naturally, and if you are slow this is why your technique must be better. But slow with technique cannot beat fast with techniques. If our technical skill is equal the faster will win. Remember one of those techniques is sensitivity.

Also I am not playing chess it takes way to long :D I'm more of a checkers guy, much simpler. Chess implies that you are planning moves and thinking ahead exactly the opposite of


If you have to stop to think you will loose, if you teach yourself to respond naturally you have a much better chance.

but I do understand what you mean.



With sensitivity it allows you to make up for that deficit of speed and the structure and strong root allow you to make up for it with strength.

Exactly why WC is so effective because it allows the smaller to use superior techniques to defeat the bigger and stronger.

[red5angel]

pvwingchun - ok, now I see where you are coming from. True, if you are fast AND have good sensitivity then you have the best of both worlds, and of course there are always exceptions to any rule.

Old Jong - Agreed, you must be careful to not fall from the wingchun tree when free sparring! I think for me the idea would be to get into contact and then use the same principles behind chi sao sparring.

[old jong]

"I think for me the idea would be to get into contact and then use the principles behind chi sao sparring."

Makes sense! But, whatever the way sparring is initiated, Chi sau will switch on by itself at the first contact. (I don't mean rolling hands). A Wing Chun guy will not break contact when engaged or jump back or make feints or whatever is usual in "sparring" as we see it most of the times.We stick,recieve/follow and strike and that's all.

[pvwingchun]

Once again I agree but if my sensitivity is not as good as yours but I am faster I can beat you if you are not fast enough to prevent whatever is happening, then your technique not to include sensitivity must be better. If I feel you move but don't have the speed to counter then what? Don't get me wrong sensitivity is extremely important but it is not the end all. You need to work the tool that is most effective for you at the given time. If your sensitivity is poor then you must be faster, if you are not fast then your technique must win. If I am strong and fast then your technique must be better. This whole thing is kind of a vicious cycle. One is more important then the other but which one and at which time?????? I believe that at different times and ages in your life the importance of these will change....

Just remember it is all WC and in the end it is far superior to having no skills at all and what you deem important today will change tomorrow as you progress through your training:cool: .

[AndrewS]

Red5Angel,

'Magickal thinking' is on second thougt a serious disservice to my many dear friends who practice a variety of paths with 'the method of science and aim of religion'. Your untutored dogmatism would be a joke in the occult world as well as the martial.

*Why* are strength and speed drills missing the point? When you can toss some one around like a rag doll isn't that strength? When they move and you arrive first isn't that speed? *Which* strength and *which* speed, *how* is is gained, these things are the relevant questions.

You don't need speed with sensitivity? Think about that statement a bit. It's essentially indefensible- no matter how sensitive you are, if you can't be somewhere in time to deal with incoming force, you'll take a beating. If you use speed without the ability to change, you have certain liabilities which can be exploited, but those liabilites can only be exploited by someone 'fast' enough to find them ('fast' being a fairly complex little beast which our art approaches throught many subtle ways).

Fairy stories about old taiji masters and 'internalists' don't give you a lot of credibility. The 'don't sweat, just push' crowd are the people fairly universally considered responsible for the abortion which is the internal martial arts today. This approach has castrated several superb fighting systems and left behind hollow slow motion health practices. If you actually look around at the internal teachers who generate students with fighting skill while still adhering to 'internal' principles' , you won't find slow motion dance and health training. You will find 'sensitivity' training and copious amounts of sweat and pain. You will also find whole systems of callesthentics and body conditioning meant to develop the body connections which transmit and generate 'internal' power, and significant use of over-weighted weaponry and training devices. Carl ever tell you about his taiji teacher's favorite conditioning toy- a 30lb metal ball he likes to fajing into the air and move over his body? I may be confused but I believe he's the Chen stylist well known for that. That's not weight-lifting or power training?

Neither you nor I know how good Yip Man was, nor do we have access to his training regimens at different points in his development. Personally, I don't take the images of cachetic man with terminal cancer to be the apogee of a brilliant career in martial arts, as so many seem to.

You argue that strength and speed fade with age. Why are so many athletes maintaining elite level performance into their forties and fifties today- scientific conditioning. Believe it or not, there is some rationale behind how the body works, grows, and learns. Some of this knowlege has been around for a long time other bits are just coming to light. Your disdain for sweat and work ignores both some of the oldest truths in fighting conditioning and the newest.

Andrew

[red5angel]

Andrew - "Your untutored dogmatism would be a joke in the occult world as well as the martial. "

Your statement here shows you are not worth talking with this about. You are as obviously steeped in your beliefs as you accuse me of being. I can respect strong beliefes and even strong opinions but not when they come off a forked tongue. In the future, if you wish to hold a discussion I recommend you try a freindlier tone and leave out accusations. Dont presume to know me or what it is I believe or train. This forum is for discussion, and unless you come to my house or my school and trian what I train and talk to me personally then you have no basis for which to stand on when making presumptions.

[red5angel]

Sensitivity at a high level can beat all forms of speed, as the guy will be tighter and more rigid and will get hit, as well as being able to neutralize what ever he throws

As for internal well, Master Chen only weighs 120 and I know he can really hurt me badly if he hits me

as for sensitivity it can always beat speed, who cares once I attach to you you lose, as I feel you and you will not be able do anything without me knowing it, so try as hard as you want but I will always have the line and you will lose. Also the moment you think speed you lose because you have tighten a little and that means now you will have to untighten before you hit...now that means you will have to make 2 moves to my one, and I do not
care how fast you think you are you can never make 2 moves to my one

[aelward]

r5a writes:
> Well, lets start by taking economy of motion. If you dont have
> any internal power, dont know how to unify your entire body
> behind your actions then you have to work with speed and
> strength, making large moves to build up power for your strike.

How many different forms of Taiji have you seen? How about Ba Gua, Baji, Xing Yi, or Water Boxing? All of these have very large motions, some of them use lots of speed in their forms. Of course, a lot of these people can pack a lot of power into a small motion, but then, how about Wing Chun's short punch?

A lot of Wing Chun people, from several different lineages, can release that kind of power, and I have yet to hear any of them describe it as "internal". Bruce Lee, who did lots of weights and plenty of speed training, could still propel people long distances with his 1-inch punch. Hawkins Cheung, a tiny guy, can also send people flying, as can be demonstrated in some of his videos. Emin Boztepe also packs quite a short-punch according to some reviews. I'm sure the list goes on and on and on.

> You are as obviously steeped in your beliefs as you accuse me
> of being. I can respect strong beliefes and even strong
> opinions but not when they come off a forked tongue.

I have heard similar lines from fundamentalists from several different religions... how rarely do they look in the mirror....

[fa_jing]

I remember reading that while in FatShan, Yip Man used to make body armor out of straw and go full-force with his sparring partners.

-FJ

[red5angel]

Aelward, I understand what you are saying about the internal artist and big movements, but I practice wingchun and those are out of place in wing chuns principles of economy.

"A lot of Wing Chun people, from several different lineages, can release that kind of power, and I have yet to hear any of them describe it as "internal". "

People argue over what is internal and external all the time, is it Qi? Is it structure, or timing? Semantics can be argued here all day. It woul dhave been interesting to see Bruce Lee at 60, however we will most likely see Emin at 50 and then we will see how his training has held up.

"I have heard similar lines from fundamentalists from several different religions... how rarely do they look in the mirror...."

The point of this comment was to say that if you are going to cleanoff someone elses porch you should make sure yours is clean first. Andrew might have a good argument but I am not interested in a discussion that starts out with incivility.

[Redd]

Originally posted by red5angel
Dont presume to know me or what it is I believe or train. This forum is for discussion, and unless you come to my house or my school and trian what I train and talk to me personally then you have no basis for which to stand on when making presumptions.

Incapable of perceiving his own darkness the little pot whines and calls the kettle black.

[sunkuen]

It's starting to sound like you got some of the right answers but all the wrong reasons. Are all your arguments here just misunderstood quotes from your seniors!!!:rolleyes:

[red5angel]

Sunkuen, what do you mean wrong reasons? Would you mind elaborating please?

[sunkuen]

I will, but i'm off to class now.... I'm gonna let you think about it for awhile first and maybe you'll figure it out on your own.

[pvwingchun]

Sensitivity at a high level can beat all forms of speed, as the guy will be tighter and more rigid and will get hit, as well as being able to neutralize what ever he throws
Not so the more relaxed you are the more speed you have, the less tense the more speed, the more rigid you are the slower you are. So someone tense and rigid will be slower. This is one of the primary reasons for relaxation.


as for sensitivity it can always beat speed, who cares once I attach to you you lose, as I feel you and you will not be able do anything without me knowing it, so try as hard as you want but I will always have the line and you will lose.
Not so if I someone is faster than you even though you feel them move you have to be fast eough to counter unless you are fast enough to counter you will be beat. If you are fast enough to counter then your premise holds if you are not fast enough to counter you are beat. As you attach you are right they will not be able to do anything without you knowing, knowing that you are about to get hit by someone with superior speed, because as I said if you are not fast enough to counter your sensitivity has done you no good.

I want to have good sensitivity and good speed. Without at least enough speed to properly counter then your sensitivity is no good.

[red5angel]

OK, well have fun at class, I am soon off to vacation and lots of training!!!

[pvwingchun]

I would agree with sunkuen somewhat. I think you should try to explore your principles deeper and the interaction between them. No one principle stands alone but work in coordination with the others, therefore no one technique stands alone.

[red5angel]

pvwingchun - of course I am always training and getting new perspectives on my art, as well as discussing on this forum.

"Not so the more relaxed you are the more speed you have, the less tense the more speed"

I dont necessarily believe this to be true. To provide that speed you need energy, which is provided by your muscle, to go faster you need more energy which means you draw more on your muscle.

[pvwingchun]

Try tensing your your upper body and punching then relax your upper body and punch. You will find yourself faster when you are relaxed.

[anerlich]

Sensitivity at a high level can beat all forms of speed, as the guy will be tighter and more rigid and will get hit, as well as being able to neutralize what ever he throws

Disregarding the syntactic problems with that statement, it seems to assume you are always in contact, which is not the case, a reason why chi sao and contact sensitivity drills are not the be all and end all of WC training.

If you include visual sensitivity, I can buy it to some degree.

Speed comes from removal of UNNECESSARY tension from the structure. Also from movement efficiency, which is one of WC's goals last time I looked. It doesn't follow that a fast person is tense and rigid, the reverse is generally the case.

You could argue that a component of sensitivity is perceptual speed, and thus speed is an attribute of sensitivity.

AndrewS, good to see you posting on here!

[AndrewS]

Originally posted by red5angel
Andrew - "Your untutored dogmatism would be a joke in the occult world as well as the martial. "

Your statement here shows you are not worth talking with this about.

My disagreement with you and personal distaste for your dogmatism, followed by numerous supporting examples based and wider knowlege base require you to ignore me, eh?

>You are as obviously steeped in your beliefs as you accuse me of being. I can respect strong beliefes and even strong opinions but not when they come off a forked tongue.

That's one body modification I don't have for professional reasons, though I've often thought it would be fun for my lovers. Less concretely, there's no duplicity in my disdain for you. You are the person who's publically claiming to have the 'one true way' and by comparison showing immense disrespect towards a number of other expressions of the art which are not your way. I'll agree that there is much horrid Wing Chun, but I would also say that there are many routes to excellence in the art, and your chauvanism ****es on as diverse a set of approaches as Tsui Shan Tei, Wong Shung Leung, Yuen Kay Sai (hmm, probably blew a spelling or two there).


> In the future, if you wish to hold a discussion I recommend you try a freindlier tone and leave out accusations. Dont presume to know me or what it is I believe or train.

I have great respect for Ken Chung's approach and have little but good about him from people I respect. I've corresponded with a number of folks from Ken Chung line, have had *many* peers who've crossed hands with people from your line and compared notes in a friendly manner- finding far less difference than seems to be your party line, have met Carl and had some pleasant exchanges with a few of his students, one of my old training partners worked out with Carl for a few months after I left town, and I spent the weekend before last working with one of your old training partners, so I *might* know a little about what you do.

You, on the other hand, are an ass and an idiot, and were you my junior making such statements in public I would make a serious attempt to educate you as to the foolishness of your behavior.

> This forum is for discussion, and unless you come to my house or my school and trian what I train and talk to me personally then you have no basis for which to stand on when making presumptions.

Your public statements are sufficient basis for my presumption of your idiocy.

Later,

Andrew

AndrewN- good to catch you again, man. Ed Yuen rolled through LA from down your way a while back. You ever meet up with him?

[Rill]

Its from experience. Sure you can do speed drills and strength drills but then you are missing the point.
Yes, I'm sure your experience is massive - you sound like a well of knowledge. There is a point at which you will stop simply repeating the concepts you have heard spoken and blindly repeat, and come to understand them. At this point you will hopefully come to realise the concepts that are taught to beginners are there as fundamentals so that your training does not suffer when you begin. Training speed over technique is wrong, because to a point good technique will always beat speed - especially if that speed has bad technique. But then consider that good technique will be relaxed, will move as little as possible, and will use chi sao - this is why they'll win. If you start to even up the odds a bit and throw in some technique and chi sao with that speed, then someone who isn't as good will be able to put in a hit on you whenever and wherever they want. This is my experience, based on what I have seen, what I have been told, and what I have done myself.

I agree that excessive strength is not a requirement for wing chun because of the way we use our muscles, but speed is like chi sao - you don't have to use it, you can fight without it, but why would you want to when you get it for free?


Instead of doing all those pushups and situps and speed drills try sensitivity drills, working on your structure, see if something diffent doesnt come from it. . . . Anyway, doing the pushups and situps and speed drils and the weight lifting is a way to go, but its not the wing chun path and that path fades with each passing year as your strength and speed succumb to age.
Thanks for the training tip, but you're not telling me anything I don't already know.

Again, speed is good, sensitivity is good, speed with sensitivity is better. Sifu Tsui Seung Tin was once asked how much speed he thought he'd lost over the years, to which he replied about 10%. You may lose all your strength in old age, your bones may become brittle, but if I lose just 10% of my speed then that's very acceptable.


Dont presume to know me or what it is I believe or train. This forum is for discussion, and unless you come to my house or my school and trian what I train and talk to me personally then you have no basis for which to stand on when making presumptions.
I could do what several others have done and make an indirect reference to this, but I prefer to voice my mind. This is possibly the most hypocritical thing you've posted on here. Please quit trying to tell us all about the greatness of Carl, as you don't know the skill of the practioners on the forum, nor our Sifu's or Sigung's skill. For all you know, we could all be better than Carl, let alone yourself. Similarly, please quit trying to explain that we don't train the right way, that we don't do things as well as you do, and that we're all training in McDojo's. I often wonder why you never seem to be singing the praises of your Sifu Michael - why is it always Carl? If you like, the rest of can list off our Sifu's and Sigung's so that you realise we're not all training in the dark. Your enthusiasm is commendable, your discussion is good, but your posts need to be trimmed to just that - discussion - not preaching.

-----------
DISCLAIMER
This post is not intended to offend, insult or otherwise antagonise any of the people mentioned within. Take the time to consider this while you're reading.

[sunkuen]

What I meant was this...
Your saying to not use speed or strength. I believe you think the speed and the strength are completely tossed aside in favor of sensitivity. We refrain from relying on muscle strength while doing chi sau so that we can use that sensitivity to feel our opponents and our own weaknesses. We must use a little "muscle" to keep the forward energy thing happening. We don't rely on speed in chi sau to hit our kf brother so fast that he cannot even react. This type of chi sau is competitive minded and not really desireable. When we can flow into our opponents openings (lau) and keep them open by using our relaxed wing chun structure to immobilize their defenses then we're headed in the right direction. Speed kills!!! Develop your power on the dummy not your kf brother. We must use speed however in our defense because when being attacked you end up being a beat behind your partner. "He strikes first but I land my strike first" This is in defense mode and it ain't gonna work if your too slow. Thats enuff to think about for now. Answer this question red....Do any of your kf brothers use strength in chi sau and if so how do you know?
Rip me a new ******* if i missed anything but i'm really tired at the moment

R.I.P
Longwindedkuen!!!

p.s. You can bet your ass that when I hit you it will be with all the speed and strength i got!!!

[kj]

I have no illusion about speed and strength - they can be very effective. This has been demonstrated for millennia, and in virtually every culture.

There will always be enough fast, strong people who can beat me up, and I'd consider myself a danged fool to laugh it off.

The caveat is, I don't believe this is the optimal emphasis for someone like me.

My perspective is largely based on the laws of diminishing return, and acceptance of my own limitations. I can never compete with the big or athletic boys on their terms. As I'm not getting any younger, things are only going to worsen for me in that regard.

Having said that, I do indeed want to have speed - in a sense. However, I seek to develop speed in a way other than reliance on athleticism. We have a saying about this: "It doesn't matter who is faster; it matters who arrives first."

I also don't disregard strength. However, I have chosen to place my own emphasis instead on power. For someone like me, there is a critical distinction.

Plagiarizing my own recent post in another forum, here is the gist of how I've been taught and how I focus my practice. Emphasis for training and application, in the following order:

1) Position
2) Sensitivity
3) Power

Within these, are the following implicit steps and attributes:

0) Structure (e.g., posture, rooting, and body unity) is a prerequisite.
2a) Timing
2b) Speed

Again, speaking from my own paradigm of course, all the factors are related and interdependent.

Timing and Speed result primarily as functions of Position and Sensitivity, and Power is largely derived from Structure.

My chosen performance and development model is appropriately in keeping with the notion of a "woman's art," i.e., the smaller, weaker, more physically disadvantaged party.

Yeah I know, Yuanfen, pare a dime. :D


Originally posted by sunkuen
p.s. You can bet your ass that when I hit you it will be with all the speed and strength i got!!!

I respect that. Since I cannot compete, all the more incentive for me to work very diligently to develop high levels of precision and sensitivity, in conjunction with sufficient experience to exploit any over commitments or the most subtle vulnerabilities of my athletic betters. I'm not saying this is easy for me, only that it is essential.

FWIW, one of the scariest people I've played with so far was my Hung Ga friend. While there are obvious differences in our approaches, he does indeed have a solid root, a mobile stance, enormous control, and he is very precise. To my misfortune, those skills are combined with a huge and cut build, great speed, strength and power. My only conceivable hope with someone so gifted, other than luck, is to have superior sensitivity, timing, position, and precision, combined with sufficient experience to exploit his vulnerabilities. As of yet, I simply see no other way to compete with his assets.

And at the end of the day, I have what I have. No more and no less. I have no illusion of guarantees. The best and most reasonable thing I can hope for and expect is to improve my odds yet a little more tomorrow.

Just a different perspective.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

P.S. As always, any and all insights I may have are owed to my teacher. Any shortcomings in my understanding or expression belong wholly to me.

[dezhen2001]

basically then it's keep training and at the end of the day: win some lose some :)

david

[kj]

Originally posted by dezhen2001
basically then it's keep training and at the end of the day: win some lose some :)

david

Other perspectives have psychological utility. But can any be more true?
- kj

[Alpha Dog]

What but a myriad of carefully chosen angles can reveal the beauty of a diamond?

[kj]

Originally posted by Alpha Dog
What but a myriad of carefully chosen angles can reveal the beauty of a diamond?

Indeed.

[Mr Punch]

How delightful! A diamond cut from cheese!!

But thank you to Kathy Jo for bringing this discussion back into line. Your post was excellent.

All of the factors are related and interdependent, I agree, but surely Speed is also derived from Structure to a large extent: ie the structure of your muscles and your body linkage in a relaxed manner...?

[kj]

Originally posted by Mat
surely Speed is also derived from Structure to a large extent: ie the structure of your muscles and your body linkage in a relaxed manner...?

I must agree that this combined with positioning and precision are among key factors. Actually, I believe that highly refined positioning and precision depend, as you allude, on proper relaxation and structure (in all its encompassed meaning).

Another factor in "perceived speed" is the importance of "timing." Timing, is highly related to sensitivity as previously mentioned, in addition to relaxed readiness, and avoidance of over-commitment in any form.

There are physiological factors which impact timing also, some of which can be improved or at least compensated for through training. Views on how to best accomplish this will of course vary.

As you pointed out and IMHO, the factors are all related and interdependent for optimal performance. I confess I'm not yet finished perfecting that last part, LOL.

The precise integration of all elements contributes highly to my deep fascination with Wing Chun. I no longer seem to be able to pick out any one concept or attribute that does not touch and impact the balance of others, in theory or in practice.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[anerlich]

Kathy Jo is correct (and erudite).

[kj]

Thank you, Andrew. I also highly regard your perspectives and sense of reason.

Your sense of humor is none too shabby either. ;)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by kj
As you pointed out and IMHO, the factors are all related and interdependent for optimal performance. I confess I'm not yet finished perfecting that last part, LOL.

Of course 'IMHO': I was agreeing with you!!! I will do so again!! LOL

Also LOL at your LOL: me neither, I have a long way to go! Sometimes I can't even see the end!!


Originally posted by kj
Timing and Speed result primarily as functions of Position and Sensitivity, and Power is largely derived from Structure.

This point was the one I took issue with. I was nitpicking over your distinctions between sensitivity, position and structure and their interrelationship. the first two paragraphs of your response have answered my question and shut me up!!


Originally posted by kj
...
Just a different perspective.


I differ on that!!:D

[Grendel]

Originally posted by red5angel
Andrew - "Your untutored dogmatism would be a joke in the occult world as well as the martial. "

Your statement here shows you are not worth talking with this about. You are as obviously steeped in your beliefs as you accuse me of being. I can respect strong beliefes and even strong opinions but not when they come off a forked tongue. In the future, if you wish to hold a discussion I recommend you try a freindlier tone and leave out accusations. Dont presume to know me or what it is I believe or train. This forum is for discussion, and unless you come to my house or my school and trian what I train and talk to me personally then you have no basis for which to stand on when making presumptions.
Hi Red,

You are overreacting to Andrew's comments. Your sihengs and at least one sije have pointed out corrections in your notions to you. You are going to feel foolish when you finally meet some of Ken's students and they disagree with the writing you've been doing.

At the end of the day, we are all just dabbling to some degree in martial arts. Our lives (in the sense of "life or death"), and for most of us, our livelihoods do not depend on it. Lighten up on those who criticize and challenge you intellectually. Their statements all have some truth, and though you don't perceive it, they are offering you wisdom and opportunities for an expanded vision of the art.

Finally, show some good sportsmanship. This forum is not like a "death match." We will all walk away with our friendships or dislikes depending how we address one another in civilized discourse.

You are too new in your lineage to be speaking as you do as an authority. If we don't recognize your knowledge, how can you expect others to bow before it?

Most of the time, you're pretty even-handed in your responses, but every once in a while you lose it. Before you react in anger, take a step back from the keyboard, go do something else for a while, (I suggest SLT), and after half an hour or so, when you re-read what made you angry, you may feel differently about it.

For your sake, I hope this constant "battling" in cyberspace isn't taking some kind of a toll on you. Try to keep your perspective.

Regards,

[red5angel]

Grendel - you are correct, a waste of time, I apologise for the interruption.

Back to internal power. Its the linking of the body, the ability to build power with your root, in your legs and use your entire body to deliver that power.

[AndrewS]

Red,

hmmm- go rent Tyson vs. Spinks, the HBO special with commentary by Tyson's trainer, and multiple angles of that little 90 second demolition. You might go looking for another definition after that.

Later,

Andrew

[Sam]

Fut Sao Wing Chun Kuen utilizes internal concepts and Hei/Nei Gung training. Body posturing and horse stance rooting are key. www.buddhapalm.com